John Bruton
Question:9 Mr. J. Bruton asked the Minister for Finance if there is a code of practice or guidelines concerning external consultancies or work undertaken by staff in Departments; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [15231/99]
Other Questions. - Civil Service Staff Guidelines.
Ruairí Quinn
Question:22 Mr. Quinn asked the Minister for Finance the plans, if any, he has to issue new guidelines to staff of Departments regarding involvement in outside commercial activities in view of the events that led to the resignation of a person (details supplied); and if he will make a statement on the matter. [15350/99]
I propose to take Questions Nos. 9 and 22 together.
There are long-standing rules governing the conditions under which it is allowable for civil servants to engage in or be connected with outside occupations. In essence, the rules provide that no officer may at any time engage in or be connected with any outside business or activity which would in any way conflict with the interests of his Department, be inconsistent with his official position or tend to impair his usefulness as a public servant.
As part of a series of initiatives to improve the human resource management function in the Civil Service under the strategic management initiative, it was decided to review the rules and guidelines which govern the conduct of civil servants. A draft code of conduct is being considered within the strategic management initiative deliberative process. It is intended that the code will draw together in a single document the principal precepts which should govern the behaviour of civil servants. The code is not intended to be an exhaustive list of guidelines for all possible eventualities, but rather will set out the principled framework within which all civil servants should work and the values they will be expected to uphold.
The code will address certain standards of probity required of civil servants in the modern Civil Service in relation to issues such as gifts, hospitality, conflicts of interest, such as those that may arise as a consequence of any business activity or employment of civil servants outside the Civil Service, and payments for work on behalf of outside bodies. Once the strategic management initiative consultative process has been completed the text will submitted to Government for approval. If approved by Government the code will be circulated to all civil servants.
Will the code of conduct include penalties for non-compliance? Does the Minister accept that any proposed code of conduct should first be discussed by this House, or a committee of the House, before being circulated to Departments?
This matter is ongoing as part of the deliberative process in drawing up the code of conduct with Civil Service unions. It is intended that the code would not specify sanctions in respect of breaches of the standards set out. The code will operate within the existing legislative framework for the Civil Service. Disciplinary action against any civil servant is still governed by the Civil Service Regulation Act, 1956.
I have not considered whether the code should be made available to the House but I see merit in that suggestion. Perhaps the code could be referred to the Select Committee on Finance and the Public Service within the next couple of months. I am sure that the advice of Members will be taken into account in bringing the code to fruition. I cannot see why anyone would object to it and I will make it available.
Will the code of conduct apply to advisers who are not public servants but who are working with a Minister on a temporary basis? I am sure the Minister shares my concern at the reduction in the number of applicants for some entry level posts in the Civil Service. Does he agree that we need a more flexible approach to employment in the Civil Service and that civil servants must be allowed to take leave of absence for a number of years, that they must be allowed to perform outside consultancy work – as long as it does not conflict with their public service obligations – and that we need a loosening of the rules while retaining some clarity as to the public service obligations of civil servants?
I agree that we need more flexibility concerning the matters to which the Deputy referred. However, we have not been very good at loosening up the Civil Service. In the UK there is an ongoing flow of people moving from the public service into the private sector and gaining experience which benefits both parties. During the Fianna Fáil-Labour Government, Deputy Quinn was very keen to promote such developments, as was the then Taoiseach, Deputy Albert Reynolds. However, we have not been as successful as other countries in this regard. I can see how flexibility would encourage people.
I share the Deputy's concern about the fall-off in numbers of people applying to the Civil Service. However, this reflects the trend in the general jobs market. I have been around long enough to have seen this operate in two directions. When I completed my third level studies, it was not that attractive to join the Civil Service because the market for jobs was very good. I have lived to see the opposite happen where everyone wanted to join the Civil Service and now I will see the first scenario come about again.
I asked a specific question as to whether it was intended that the code of conduct would apply to advisers.
Advisers are usually appointed as temporary civil servants and there are rules and guidelines which apply to special advisers. There is a standard provision for special advisers who are subject to the Ethics in Public Office Act and who must also declare their interests. Therefore, a combination of Civil Service rules and the rules which apply to special advisers should cover all eventualities. In any event, people should know when there is a conflict of interest without having to be told.
What measures exist to deal with civil servants who act as lobbyists or people who have left the Civil Service who act as lobbyists?
There are no rules governing that activity but I can see merit in having it considered further. Long before current difficulties I initiated within the Department of Finance consideration of this matter with a view to drawing up some tentative rules governing people who may have been civil servants for many years and who left to act as lobbyists for private sector concerns. However, we must be careful not to restrict people's activities. It would not be fair to do that and I do not intend to do it. Nonetheless, some further thought and debate should take place in this area and perhaps the recent difficulties give us an opportunity to do so. Unfortunately, when such difficulties arise, some people make outlandish statements with the result that we do not deliberate as coolly as we should.
Do I understand the Minister correctly that he has done some work in the Department and that he intends to bring forward proposals in the area?
I have done some work but it did not concern lobbyists. I discussed with my officials the formulation of general proposals to deal with areas where people would be in the Civil Service one day and acting as lobbyists for private sector concerns a few months later.
Does the Minister expect to bring forward proposals?
I expected to bring forward proposals and I was going to have them con sidered further in the context of the Ethics in Public Office Act as that might be a vehicle by which the matter could be further addressed. The record will show that I initiated debate in this regard in the Department many months ago. Any change might possibly be made under the Act. It is a delicate area and a difficult one in which to achieve the right balance.