Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 6 Oct 1999

Vol. 508 No. 4

Other Questions. - Social Welfare Benefits.

Brendan Howlin

Question:

47 Mr. Howlin asked the Minister for Social, Community and Family Affairs the steps, if any, ongoing in his Department to ensure that refugees are made fully aware of their social welfare entitlements; the measures, if any, his Department is considering which could help people who just recently received refugee status to access employment and training schemes but have been awaiting a decision on their application for a number of years and were, therefore, in receipt of supplementary welfare allowance; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [18868/99]

Mr. D. Ahern

Refugees who are granted work permits by the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform are entitled to apply for unem ployment benefit and unemployment assistance and have the same rights of access to active labour market programmes as Irish citizens.

The Government recently decided that a number of asylum seekers whose applications for asylum have been pending for more than 12 months will be granted permission to work and, as a result, they are also entitled to claim unemployment assistance. Arrangements are being worked out currently between my Department and the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform regarding the identification and confirmation of status of the individuals in question. As the Deputy stated, many persons in this category are currently in receipt of supplementary welfare allowance and arrangements are ongoing with the health boards to manage their transition from supplementary welfare allowance to unemployment assistance.

When these arrangements have been finalised, consultation will also take place at local level between social welfare local offices and local community welfare officers to facilitate the transfer of individual claims. During this transition phase the priority will be to ensure that there is not a disruption in payment arrangements. In addition, every effort will be made to ensure that customers are made fully aware of their entitlements and responsibilities under the various schemes administered by my Department and the full range of employment and other supports.

A working group comprised of my Department and the health boards has been working out the transition arrangements and any particular issues arising which may require special provision will be addressed by the group. Measures will also be taken to ensure that staff are trained to deal effectively with customers from different cultures and backgrounds.

Mr. Broughan

How many people have been approved for work permits? The Minister outlined in detail the initiatives he has taken and I commend him on them. To what extent has he liaised, particularly in Dublin city and county, with local jobs and enterprise groups with regard to skills adaptation, the use of languages and the new programmes such as job rotation and so forth that are coming on stream and might be of value to refugees who have been given the right to settle here?

Mr. D. Ahern

It is estimated that approximately 2,500 people will qualify under this category. They will transfer from SWA to UA and that will have implications for the live register. However, once they go on the live register they will be able to access the training programmes available through FÁS and other agencies. Given the difficulties with language, background and culture, it will be a learning process for all concerned and the Department will have to be aware of that aspect. Until now, direct contact between asylum seekers and my Department has been negligible because the asylum seekers were referred to community welfare officers. We will ensure that the transition takes place smoothly. One can look to the transition that took place between disabled person's maintenance allowance and DA. I am aware it is not the same, but although there were greater figures involved, the transition took place smoothly.

Mr. J. O'Keeffe

I presume there are interdepartmental discussions about the refugees. Has there been any assessment of the work prospects of refugees, many of whom are genuinely seeking employment? Has there been an assessment of their language, training and skills difficulties?

Mr. D. Ahern

I do not have any information on that because my Department was not directly responsible. The question should be addressed to another Minister.

Liz McManus

Question:

48 Ms McManus asked the Minister for Social, Community and Family Affairs if he will establish a carers' fund to be financed through the pay related social insurance system. [18896/99]

Jan O'Sullivan

Question:

64 Ms O'Sullivan asked the Minister for Social, Community and Family Affairs if he has established a timescale for the implementation of the recommendations of the review of the carer's allowance; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [18874/99]

Jan O'Sullivan

Question:

65 Ms O'Sullivan asked the Minister for Social, Community and Family Affairs the proposals, if any, he has to significantly increase the number of carers qualifying for carer's allowance from January 2000. [18897/99]

Michael Creed

Question:

82 Mr. Creed asked the Minister for Social, Community and Family Affairs if he will rectify the anomaly with regard to eligibility for the carer's allowance whereby persons already in receipt of a social welfare payment are excluded from benefit under the scheme. [18899/99]

Mr. D. Ahern

I propose to take Questions Nos. 48, 64, 65 and 82 together.

The carer's allowance is a means tested payment for carers on low income who look after people in need of full-time care and attention. Following a detailed examination of the review of the carer's allowance, which was published in October 1998, a range of measures was introduced in the 1999 budget at an additional annual cost of more than £18 million to improve and develop the position of carers. These measures were implemented between April and August this year. The estimated expenditure on carer's allowance in 1999 is almost £60 million. At the end of September 1999, there were 13,605 carers in receipt of the carer's allowance compared with 11,100 at the same time last year. This number is expected to increase to almost 15,000 when the package of measures introduced for carers in the last budget come into full effect.

The review of the carer's allowance proposed the introduction of a PRSI carer's benefit to facilitate carers in employment to temporarily leave work to care. The review envisaged that this would be financed through the PRSI system. The proposal would, for example, require an increase of the order of 0.1 per cent to 0.2 per cent in each of the current employee and employer PRSI rates, depending on the level of Exchequer contribution. A working group has recently been established in my Department to examine the operational details involved in the introduction of a carer's benefit scheme.

The review considered that a needs assessment encompassing both the needs of the care recipient and the carer should be introduced. This would separate care needs from income support needs and could be used by all State organisations which provide reliefs or grants to those in need of care. A working group which is chaired by Deputy Moffatt, Minister of State at the Department of Health and Children, and comprising membership from my Department and the health boards has been set up to advance this proposal.

The review of the carer's allowance also examined the issue of paying the carer's allowance in conjunction with another social welfare payment. The practice of paying only one allowance is a feature, with few exceptions, of all social welfare payments and is designed to ensure that limited resources are not used to make two income support payments to any one individual. The review concluded that the payment of two concurrent income support allowances would not be an effective use of resources.

The measures introduced in the 1999 budget clearly indicate my commitment and that of the Government to carers and the appreciation we must have for this valuable role in society. In addition, my colleagues, the Minister for Finance, the Minister for Health and Children and the Minister for the Environment and Local Government, have also brought forward proposals of assistance to carers. The Government is conscious that such an integrated approach is required and needs to be developed further. Further improvements in the carer's allowance will be considered in a budgetary context.

Mr. Broughan

Deputy O'Keeffe and I have asked the Minister on a number of occasions about the possibility of providing a carer's benefit and I am glad he has advanced the proposal to the stage of a working group examining the figures and how it can be done. Everybody has encountered cases where people have no alternative but to leave the workforce to look after a spouse or parent and the provision of a benefit based on their caring work would be welcome. I urge the Minister in his forthcoming battles with the Minister for Finance, Deputy McCreevy, to go out of his way to try to introduce this in the 2000 budget.

Did the Minister also indicate in his reply that he is considering introducing a cost of caring allowance? He said he is trying to separate the expenditure on the person who is being cared for from the carer. Will he introduce such an allowance? Estimates of the number of carers that will be required have ranged to 100,000; it will certainly be between 45,000 and 50,000 people. Currently, 15,000 people are being cared for and there are many more people to be reached. The Minister has a big responsibility to reach them by 1 December.

Mr. D. Ahern

I accept the Deputy's point about the future care of the elderly. Obviously, the pensions issue will be important. The Government has decided to invest in pensions. An ever increasing aging population will put further strain on health resources and raises the issue of how we are to care for the elderly. The Government is conscious of the major task ahead of it and future Governments in that respect.

The carer's allowance review recommended a number of measures and the Government implemented all of them except two. The first was the carer's benefit which we are examining at present. The cost of introducing such a measure is significant; we estimate it could be approximately £42 million. It could be financed through an increase in PRSI payments and that is being examined by a working group which comprises people from a number of Departments.

The issue of a continual care payment is not to be confused with a cost of care payment, which is recommended by the Commission on the Status of People with Disabilities. It would be under the aegis of the Department of Health and Children. The continual care payment under the carer's allowance is indicated in the review as a payment for those people who are caring with the highest level of care. Before that can be introduced we need a proper system of needs assessment. That is why we have set up this working group, with Deputy Moffatt in the chair, to look at the introduction of a needs assessment system. It is not an easy task because one will try to identify on a one to one basis the needs of particular individuals and, obviously, what comes out of that will have huge financial implications.

Mr. J. O'Keeffe

Whatever about the improvements in the carer's allowance, does the Minister accept that at best one in three carers qualify for an allowance and the system must continue to be improved? I wish to return to the issue of those who are excluded because they are in receipt of another social welfare payment. Does the Minister acknowledge that if that payment is from another EU member state, the individual in many instances in not disqualified from receiving the carer's allowance? Does he accept that if the spouse of the carer is in receipt of a social welfare payment, that should not disqualify them? Is it a question of cost or principle, or both? Does he further accept that the assessment is unfair to many women in particular? If he is improving the system, why is he reluctant to tackle this anomaly?

Mr. D. Ahern

I am not in any way reluctant to improve the carer's allowance.

Mr. J. O'Keeffe

I referred to an anomaly.

Mr. D. Ahern

My record speaks for itself. I introduced major reforms in the allowance, which were appreciated. A total of 11 different initiatives were involved, ten of which were announced in the budget. I brought an additional one forward which related to people who did not receive the carer's allowance because the care recipient might have been deceased.

Mr. J. O'Keeffe

Will the Minister focus on the question before his time concludes?

Mr. D. Ahern

Such individuals are entitled to receive the back to work allowance. The allowance was originally introduced to help low income carers and that is why the means test was put in place. Child benefit is the only payment in the social welfare system which is not means tested. The review of the carer's allowance recommended that means testing should continue in order to ensure that the available resources were targeted at those who were most in need.

However, in the last budget I made a change in regard to spousal income and I will continue to look at the issue of the disregard.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Minister's time is concluded.

Mr. J. O'Keeffe

He has not answered the question.

Mr. D. Ahern

The disregard of £150 is by far the most generous in the social welfare system.

Mr. Crawford

While I appreciate that the Minister made many other changes in the assessment for carer's allowance, the rainbow coalition increased the amount that could be disregarded from £50 to £150.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

A question, please, Deputy Crawford. Time is limited.

Mr. Crawford

However, in the past two years there has been no change. Does the Minister accept that £150 is not sufficient? Is he prepared to change that? Is he satisfied that the regulations relating to people who do not live under the one roof are being implemented in a reasonable manner? Is he further satisfied that those who are assessed, such as small farmers and businessmen, are treated in a realistic manner, taking into account the reduction in income, especially in farming?

Mr. D. Ahern

I assure the Deputy in regard to the regulations I made on residency changes that I am paying attention to their implementation. I informed the carers' association that if difficulties arose my officials would look at them in conjunction with it to see how they are implemented. The regulations are in place and are as generous as can be. It depends on where one draws the line in regard to the residency issue and we have been as fair as possible in their implementation. However, if difficulties arise they can be addressed. At the end of the day, it is up to the deciding officers and they must make a judgment, but we are monitoring any adverse decision in that respect.

Over the past two years I have endeavoured to target more people in terms of the means test and the disregard not just on the basis of their income. In particular, those who were in receipt of domiciliary care allowance can receive the carer's allowance because it is better for them. That was one of the major changes in the budget, rather than just raising the income level and bringing in an extra couple of thousand people, who might not necessarily be the worst cases. People in receipt of domiciliary care allowance are the worst cases. The issue of the disregard will be looked at in future budgets but it is one of the most generous in the social welfare system.

Mr. Broughan

Will it be possible to advance the issue of carer's benefit, which is being considered by a working group, before the forthcoming budget?

Mr. D. Ahern

It will be looked at in the context of the budget. There are a number of other issues which are being looked at not only by the Government but, indeed, by the social partners. I have had discussions with a number of the social partners in regard to the issue of carer's benefit. Some of them will push the parental leave issue. However, the issues involved must be looked at in terms of priority. We need to put in place a carer's benefit to allow people to take time off work to look after somebody in the home. Other people believe that parental leave should be dealt with sooner than carer's benefit. The carer's benefit is probably the best route to take in this respect, but, ultimately, the issue of carer's benefit will have to be decided in a budgetary context.

Written Answers follow Adjournment Debate.