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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 22 Nov 2000

Vol. 526 No. 4

Other Questions. - Company Law.

Proinsias De Rossa

Question:

76 Proinsias De Rossa asked the Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment if her Department has considered the implications for Irish company law of the judgment of the European Court of Human Rights in the Ernest Saunders appeal; if she has identified any statutory provisions that would require amendment to ensure compliance with the court's rul ing; if she has satisfied herself that legislation proposed by her is so compliant; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [26559/00]

It will be recalled that the Supreme Court in the Barrington judgment of January 1999 in regard to National Irish Bank held that a confession obtained by the inspectors, as a result of the exercise by them of their powers under section 10, as modified by the 1993 case, Desmond & Ors v. Glackin & Ors, and section 18 of the Companies Act, 1990, would not in general be admissible at a subsequent criminal trial unless in any particular case the trial judge was satisfied that the confession was voluntary. On that basis, I am advised that the principles of constitutionality obtained in the National Irish Bank case should apply in a similar way to section 19(6). That subsection provides that a statement made by a person to an authorised officer in compliance with a section 19 requirement may be used in evidence against him.

The Company Law Enforcement Bill, 2000, provides for the repeal and replacement of section 19 of the Companies Act, 1990. In providing for the repeal and replacement of section 19, the Bill left subsection (6) of that section unchanged. On the basis of the judgment of the Supreme Court in the National Irish Bank case, it would appear this provision is not, in itself, unconstitutional.

Arising from the Second Stage debate on the Bill a commitment was given that section 19(6) would be looked at in more detail. I propose, therefore, to introduce a Government amendment to the Bill, on Committee Stage. The amendment will be to the effect that statements made by persons in compliance with section 19 may only be used against them in criminal proceedings in respect of the falsity of those statements.

Do I take it from the Minister's reply that the Supreme Court judgment of the NIB is compatible with the European Court of Human Rights' decision in the Saunders case? Is the Minister saying that as a result of that the Company Law Enforcement Bill, as published, will have to be changed? Is he specifically saying that section 28(6), as published, which states that a statement by a person in compliance with the requirement imposed by virtue of this section may be used in evidence against him, would be incompatible with both the Supreme Court decision in the NIB case and the European Court decision in the Saunders case?

Our interpretation and advice is that the NIB decision is compatible with the Saunders case. I gave a commitment on Second Stage that I would give detailed consideration on Committee Stage to these matters and that I propose to do.

So the Minister is saying the procedures as they stand would not be compatible with the Saunders decision?

As the law evolves and decisions are made, we must ensure that modern legislation takes account of serious judgments made at the highest court levels. Based on that and in so far as the issue raised by the Deputy is concerned, it is correct. We will give this detailed consideration and I hope to bring forward the relevant amendments to bring absolute certainty to the veracity of information given and to the fact that a person cannot be incriminated unless he or she makes a false statement.

Regarding ongoing investigations in the Department, will this decision compromise successful prosecutions in the future?

I would not think so, though I am not a lawyer. In any case the law will be interpreted according to the legislation of the day. Unless someone can point to a major loophole in the legislation, it should not prejudice investigations that are proceeding.

Did the Supreme Court decision in the Saunders case not precede the publication of the Company Law Enforcement Bill, 2000? Is it not the case that that case emphatically preceded that Bill? The Saunders case must be four or five years ago, so how did this section, on such an integral and important matter, appear in the legislation at this late stage?

The Deputy referred to the Saunders case in the Supreme Court. I presume he means the European Court and that preceded the drafting of the legislation. I agree with that. I am not sure of the situation in the Supreme Court case; I do not have the exact date. It may have happened but obviously there were learned lawyers dealing with the matter. We now have a Bill and as I have said on many occasions, nobody has a monopoly of wisdom. We have a collective responsibility as legislators to pass good laws and I am confident that as a result of amendments put down by the Deputy and his colleagues in addition to Seanad amendments and our experience, we will ensure that as we bring forward this important legislation it will be the best we can do and will be relevant to a modern society.

Can I ask another question?

No. We have been six and a half minutes on that question. We must be fair to others who have put questions down.

I wish to ask the Minister of State—

We cannot create a precedent. We have gone over six minutes. I ask the Deputy to resume his seat.

I hope the Chair agrees this is a stupid rule.

The Chair is not responsible for the Standing Orders governing Question Time.

We are surpassing ourselves in stupidity.

The Deputy has a remedy for that.

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