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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 27 Mar 2001

Vol. 533 No. 3

Order of Business.

The Order of Business today shall be as follows: No. 19, motion re Presentation and Circulation of revised Estimates 2001; No. 44, Housing (Gaeltacht) (Amendment) Bill, 2000 – Order for Report and Report and Final Stages; and No. 45, Sex Offenders Bill, 2000 – Order for Report and Report and Final Stages.

It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that No. 19 shall be decided without debate and any division demanded thereon shall be taken forthwith. Private Members' Business shall be No. 110, motion re electricity supply.

There is one proposal to be put to the House. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 19 agreed?

No, Sir. There is an item on the Order Paper, motion No. 129, in the name of the Labour Party which would direct the Government to cease its appeal against Jamie Sinnott arising out of the recent judgment. It is now obvious there is a majority in this House who do not want the Government to proceed with this horrendous appeal, this oppressive legal process, which is unnecessary and no longer commands a majority in the House. We ask that the Government take that item now.

Arising from motion No. 128 on the Order Paper, we will oppose the Order of Business for similar reasons.

I wish to add my support to what the Labour Leader has said. The Jamie Sinnott appeal would suggest that No. 19 is probably premature. It is important that the Government clarify the position and reconsider its course of action in the light of the majority view in this House.

Is the proposal for dealing with No. 19 agreed to?

I did not realise while the Chair was on his feet that I was perhaps out of order in rising. If the Taoiseach was to indicate that the Government would not proceed with its appeal here and now we would remove our opposition to the Order of Business.

What about life-long learning?

Question put: "That the proposal for dealing with No. 19 be agreed to."
The Dáil divided: Tá, 75; Níl, 67.

    Níl

      Tellers: Tá, Deputies S. Brennan and Power; Níl, Deputies Bradford and Stagg.
      Question declared carried.
      Ahern, Bertie.
      Ahern, Dermot.
      Ahern, Michael.
      Ahern, Noel.
      Andrews, David.
      Ardagh, Seán.
      Aylward, Liam.
      Blaney, Harry.
      Brady, Johnny.
      Brady, Martin.
      Brennan, Matt.
      Brennan, Séamus.
      Briscoe, Ben.
      Browne, John(Wexford).Byrne, Hugh.
      Callely, Ivor.
      Carey, Pat.
      Collins, Michael.
      Cooper-Flynn, Beverley.
      Coughlan, Mary.
      Cowen, Brian.
      Cullen, Martin.
      Davern, Noel.
      de Valera, Síle.
      Dempsey, Noel.
      Dennehy, John.
      Doherty, Seán.
      Ellis, John.
      Fahey, Frank.
      Fleming, Seán.
      Flood, Chris.
      Foley, Denis.
      Fox, Mildred.
      Gildea, Thomas.
      Hanafin, Mary.
      Harney, Mary.
      Haughey, Seán.
      Healy-Rae, Jackie.
      Jacob, Joe.
      Keaveney, Cecilia.
      Kelleher, Billy.
      Kenneally, Brendan.
      Killeen, Tony.
      Kirk, Séamus.
      Lenihan, Brian.
      Lenihan, Conor.
      McDaid, James.
      McGennis, Marian.
      McGuinness, John J.
      Martin, Micheál.
      Moffatt, Thomas.
      Molloy, Robert.
      Moloney, John.
      Moynihan, Donal.
      Moynihan, Michael.
      Ó Cuív, Éamon.
      O'Dea, Willie.
      O'Donoghue, John.
      O'Hanlon, Rory.
      O'Keeffe, Batt.
      O'Keeffe, Ned.
      O'Malley, Desmond.
      O'Rourke, Mary.
      Power, Seán.
      Roche, Dick.
      Ryan, Eoin.
      Smith, Brendan.
      Smith, Michael.
      Treacy, Noel.
      Wade, Eddie.
      Wallace, Dan.
      Wallace, Mary.
      Walsh, Joe.
      Woods, Michael.
      Wright, G. V.
      Barrett, Seán.
      Bell, Michael.
      Belton, Louis J.
      Boylan, Andrew.
      Bradford, Paul.
      Broughan, Thomas P.
      Browne, John(Carlow-Kilkenny).Bruton, John.
      Bruton, Richard.
      Burke, Liam.
      Burke, Ulick.
      Clune, Deirdre.
      Connaughton, Paul.
      Cosgrave, Michael.
      Coveney, Simon.
      Crawford, Seymour.
      Creed, Michael.
      Currie, Austin.
      D'Arcy, Michael.
      Deasy, Austin.
      Deenihan, Jimmy.
      Dukes, Alan.
      Durkan, Bernard.
      Farrelly, John.
      Finucane, Michael.
      Fitzgerald, Frances.
      Flanagan, Charles.
      Gilmore, Éamon.
      Gormley, John.
      Gregory, Tony.
      Hayes, Brian.
      Healy, Seamus.
      Higgins, Jim.
      Higgins, Joe.
      Higgins, Michael.
      Hogan, Philip.
      Howlin, Brendan.
      McCormack, Pádraic.
      McDowell, Derek.
      McGahon, Brendan.
      McGinley, Dinny.
      McManus, Liz.
      Mitchell, Gay.
      Mitchell, Jim.
      Mitchell, Olivia.
      Naughten, Denis.
      Neville, Dan.
      Noonan, Michael.
      O'Shea, Brian.
      O'Sullivan, Jan.
      Owen, Nora.
      Penrose, William.
      Perry, John.
      Quinn, Ruairí.
      Rabbitte, Pat.
      Reynolds, Gerard.
      Ryan, Seán.
      Sargent, Trevor.
      Shatter, Alan.
      Sheehan, Patrick.
      Shortall, Róisín.
      Spring, Dick.
      Stagg, Emmet.
      Stanton, David.
      Timmins, Billy.
      Upton, Mary.
      Wall, Jack.

      We will now take leaders' questions.

      We all do constituency work and, a fortnight ago, a 25 year old person came to me who had paid £2,300 for insurance last year. This year the premium rose to £2,700 even though there had not been any accidents. Will the Taoiseach join me in condemning what appears to be a rip-off of under 25 year olds, women and old age pensioners by the insurance industry? The Motor Insurance Advisory Board has found that drivers between the ages of 18 and 25 are now, contrary to conventional wisdom, the most profitable motor insurance risk; that women drivers are paying far more than they should be; and that old age pensioners, who are considered a high risk category by the insurance industry, are actually one of the profitable categories. Will the Taoiseach condemn these practices? Will he ensure that the Tánaiste brings forward the full report without delay? Will both the Taoiseach and the Tánaiste have immediate consultations with representatives of the insurance industry to bring car insurance rates down to what they should be so that the industry would get moderate profits and the rip-off that has been going on for years will stop?

      While I know this matter will be raised later on the Adjournment by Deputy Rabbitte, is the Taoiseach aware that the Minister in question has been in possession of this report since last July? At a recent meeting of the relevant Oireachtas committee, representatives of the industry were still maintaining that the provision of insurance cover for this category of young driver was a loss-making exercise from the point of view of the industry and that that was one of the reasons premia rates were so high.

      (Dublin West): They make fools of the committee and the Tánaiste is sitting on information. It is unbelievable.

      I know this matter is due for discussion on the Adjournment later, but the Government shares the concerns about the cost of insurance for young drivers. Over the years it has been excessively high, and remains so. The Minister of State, Deputy Treacy, who is responsible—

      He is irresponsible.

      —for this area, has been working with representatives of the industry. Firm figures from the industry about its profits and losses in these areas are in the public domain. The Motor Insurance Advisory Board, which the Government established, and the Personal Injuries Advisory Board are there to try to bring down insurance costs. I note what Deputy Noonan said about the Government's efforts – including efforts made by myself, the Tánaiste and the Minister of State, Deputy Treacy – to try to obtain more action in this area. However, given recent figures in the category referred to, it would appear that the insurance industry is not making any profit and has not done so for some years. That is what lies behind the contention it has made.

      The Taoiseach has had a report since last July which shows the opposite.

      Is the Taoiseach aware that since last July there has been a report in the Tánaiste's Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, which confirms that insuring under 18 year olds is a loss making activity, but that insuring people between 18 and 25 – contrary to the conventional wisdom and contrary to the briefing we have been given in this House – is a profitable activity? To put it bluntly, rather than feeling the pain of the 25 year olds, will the Taoiseach tell us what he is going to do about it?

      What has he done?

      What has he done about it since last July? This is one of the major concerns for young people. We have been telling them consistently that because of their high level of accidents and high outgoings, the premiums cannot come down, yet now we discover that this is simply not true.

      Those figures are in dispute. The Minister will outline the reasons behind that on the Adjournment later this evening, but over the past six to nine months the figures have not been agreed to by the industry. The Government established the Personal Injuries Advisory Board. One may well ask why it was not set up years ago, but it has been established to deal with the issue of personal injuries, whence this dilemma has arisen. We established the board to tackle that matter. Given the arguments and facts that have been put forward regarding such cases, for a long time, personal injury claims involving young people have been enormous and insurance policies have not been profit-making ventures. That is why we have set about trying to deal with the issue of personal injury cases within the advisory board.

      As a former Minister for Finance, the Taoiseach is no doubt aware that since 1983 it has been a criminal offence for any person who, under section 94(2)(b) of the Finance Act, 1983, knowingly aids, abets, assists, incites or induces another person to make or deliver knowingly or wilfully any incorrect return, statement or accounts in connection with any tax. In light of this part of our law and the judgment made last Friday, does the Taoiseach believe the continued membership of Dáil Éireann by one of his Deputies is now tenable?

      In connection with the issue raised by Deputy Quinn, has the Taoiseach had any conversation at all with Deputy Cooper-Flynn since the adjudication on her court case last Friday?

      The answer to Deputy Noonan's question is "yes". I have also been in receipt of private correspondence from Deputy Cooper-Flynn. She has also informed me that she has tendered her resignation as a member of the Committee of Public Accounts. I thank Deputy Cooper-Flynn for the service she has rendered to the House as a member of that committee. I also thank her for making a wise choice in putting the interests of the committee ahead of her own interests, and for the promptness of her action which has served this House and the committee by preventing them from becoming involved in further controversy. As I said yesterday, that was the appropriate action for her to take and it is welcome.

      The context in which Deputy Cooper-Flynn has tendered her resignation from the committee concerns the outcome last week of the defamation proceedings which she took in the High Court. I understand from Deputy Cooper-Flynn that the case will be heard in the court on this day week. She will then have a period during which to appeal the case, or not. She has informed me that she and her legal team will make a fairly prompt decision based on her legal advice. I have been informed that once the costs are determined, a decision on the appeal will be made. It would be inappropriate for me to comment in detail on the outcome of the proceedings at this stage, given that the matter may yet be the subject of an appeal to the Supreme Court.

      There should be no doubt about my position on general principles. Deputy Quinn asked me about the principles that are enunciated in legislation which has been passed by the House. As a former Minister for Finance, I was responsible for putting much of the legislation in this area before the House in the Finance Act, 1992. Tax evasion is wrong and encouraging others to engage in tax evasion is equally wrong. Legislators and institutions, public or private, are all bound as good citizens to observe and uphold the rule of law. As stated previously, the action of some banks and their employees in encouraging and facilitating tax evasion, as established by the DIRT inquiry, was reprehensible. The days when individuals or corporate bodies, however high their public standing, could afford to adopt a cavalier attitude to the tax laws are long gone. It would save a great deal of pain if, in future, everyone recognised that and obeyed the law.

      Deputy Cooper-Flynn took a civil action in relation to defamation and we are aware of the outcome. Like everyone else, the Deputy is neither above nor below the law. I believe, as do the majority of Members of the House, that she is entitled to due process and full accountability. I wish her well in whatever decision she is obliged to take.

      I listened carefully to what the Taoiseach said. Does he not agree that on Friday last a jury of the High Court found, as a matter of fact, that Deputy Cooper-Flynn, acting in her capacity as an official of a bank, clearly incited or encouraged people to break the law by not paying their tax? The Taoiseach has applauded her decision to resign forthwith from the Committee of Public Accounts. Given that a jury has found that, as a matter of fact, the law was broken on foot of incitement, what does the Taoiseach believe Deputy Cooper-Flynn should do? Does he believe that her continued membership of Dáil Éireann, this place of law-making, is tenable?

      Anyone who takes a case to the High Court and does not obtain the result they desire is entitled to consider the legal implications. In this instance, Deputy Cooper-Flynn is entitled to do so under due process. I have outlined the circumstances in which she has indicated that she will make that decision. The Deputy is entitled to take time to consider her position. We are led to believe that the legal costs involved in this case are enormous and that the Deputy will go before the courts next week in respect of that matter. She has informed me and others in my party that she will make a fairly quick decision, based on the legal advice she receives, when the matter of costs is decided and she is entitled to do so.

      What is the Progressive Democrats' position in relation to this matter?

      That concludes leaders' questions.

      (Dublin West): The motor insurance companies have been operating a cartel which has ensured that the cost of insurance for young drivers has reached obscene levels and had a negative impact on road safety.

      It is not necessary for the Deputy to prefix his question with a statement. He should just ask the question.

      (Dublin West): When asking a question on the Order of Business, one sometimes feels like a pilot by virtue of the fact that one needs to build up speed before take-off. My question relates to the competition and mergers Bill. Will the Taoiseach indicate why the Motor Insurance Advisory Bureau's report was hidden from the Joint Committee on Enterprise and Small Business?

      That matter is not appropriate to the Order of Business.

      (Dublin West): In fairness, it relates to the competition and mergers Bill.

      The Deputy knows the rules of the House and is aware of Standing Orders. It is appropriate to ask a question on legislation. I call Deputy Gay Mitchell.

      Deputy Higgins has not been cleared for take-off.

      (Dublin West): When will the Bill be published?

      The heads of the Bill will be ready next week and the Bill will be ready before the summer.

      The British Food Safety Authority claimed in recent days that, based on figures for the year 2000, the likelihood of BSE being in the Irish food chain is 220 times greater than its being in the British food chain.

      A question appropriate to the Order of Business, Deputy.

      Will the Minister bring the Health (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill before the House as soon as possible so that he has an opportunity to make a statement on this matter?

      As Deputy Mitchell stated, the Bill is before the House and the Minister would welcome the opportunity to address the issues raised in the report. I must point out that neither he nor the Food Safety Authority agrees with the information contained in that report.

      The Minister for the Environment and Local Government is reported to have claimed that the new Waste Management (Amendment) Bill will be enacted by Easter. Will the Taoiseach indicate when the Bill will be debated in the House? Does he intend to make special sitting arrangements between now and Easter to facilitate the Minister?

      I thank the Deputy for offering to facilitate us. This is a matter for the Whips but the Bill will be taken as soon as possible.

      The Department of Education and Science makes regular pronouncements about the desirability of life-long learning. Is it now Government policy that life-long learning be denied to those who suffer from profound handicaps?

      That does not arise on the Order of Business.

      Will the Minister for Education and Science, at this late stage, withdraw his appeal to the Supreme Court in respect of the High Court's findings in the Sinnott case?

      (Carlow-Kilkenny): The veterin ary licensing medicines Bill is designed to replace and update existing legislation regulating the veterinary profession and related activities. In view of the fact that the farmer who imported sheep to Carlow has challenged the intention to cull his herd, is there a need to update the law or will every farmer be entitled to make such a challenge?

      The heads of the Bill are due shortly. However, it is not expected that the Bill will be published until early next year.

      Will the Taoiseach comment on the announcement by employers that they may not automatically pay the 2% pay rise due to workers under the renegotiated Programme for Prosperity and Fairness?

      That does not arise on the Order of Business.

      The Taoiseach indicated that he wishes to reply.

      Unfortunately, I cannot give him the opportunity to do so because he would then be out of order.

      Mr. Coveney

      On Sunday night last, a young man died as a result of injuries he received in an altercation outside a nightclub in Cork. This is another reminder, if one was needed—

      A question appropriate to the Order of Business or on legislation please, Deputy.

      Mr. Coveney

      —that the issue of street violence remains on the agenda. When will the Criminal Justice (Garda Powers) Bill be introduced and will it incorporate an expansion of Garda powers which will improve the position vis-à-vis street violence?

      The heads of the Bill were approved on 15 February and it is now on the list for drafting. It is expected to be published later this year.

      I wish to again raise the question of the timing of the disability Bill. I put it to the Taoiseach that, as one of his party's backbenchers stated, dragging a vulnerable family to the highest court in the land is not the way to decide on the rights of people.

      Only the first part of the Deputy's contribution is in order.

      Will the Taoiseach consider bringing forward the disability Bill which, if the Government's programme had been properly implemented, should have been introduced by now?

      The heads of this complex Bill will be ready in the summer. However, all the other items of legislation relating to this area were passed some time ago.

      I wish to inquire about the single regulatory authority Bill. When we dealt with insurance legislation in the House last year we were informed that the insurance industry would be taken into account in legislation dealing with the establishment of a single financial regulatory authority. Will the Taoiseach indicate where stands the Bill following many years of disagreements between two Ministers? Will the insurance industry be dealt with under that Bill in order that we can begin to discover the truth of the high cost of insurance in Ireland?

      The answer to the Deputy's second question is that all financial services industries, including the insurance industry, will be dealt with under the Bill. It is hoped that the Bill will be introduced before the summer.

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