Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 10 Dec 2002

Vol. 559 No. 1

Order of Business.

The Taoiseach

The Order of Business today shall be as follows: No. 10 – Supplementary Estimates for Public Services [Votes 5, 20, 21, 22, 27, 28, 29, 32, 33, 35 and 44] (back from committee); No. 11, Motion re Approval by Dáil Éireann of the terms of the Euro-Mediterranean Agreement between the European Communities and the Arab Republic of Egypt (back from committee); No. 12, Motion re Approval by Dáil Éireann of the terms of the Euro-Mediterranean Agreement between the European Community and the Republic of Lebanon (back from committee); No. 13, Motion re Approval by Dáil Éireann of the terms of the Euro-Mediterranean Agreement between the European Community and the People's Democratic Republic of Algeria (back from committee); No. 14 Motion re Leave to Introduce Supplementary Estimate [Vote 31] and, subject to the agreement of No. 14, to take the Supplementary Estimate [Vote 31]; No. 5, Social Welfare Bill, 2002 – Order for Second Stage and Second Stage.

It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that (1) the Dáil shall sit later than 8.30 p.m. tonight and business shall be interrupted not later than 10.30 p.m.; (2) Nos. 10, 11, 12 and 13 shall be decided without debate and in the case of No. 10 – the Supplementary Estimates for Public Services [Votes 5, 20, 21, 22, 27, 28, 29, 32, 33, 35 and 44] shall be moved together and decided by one question which shall be put from the Chair and any division demanded thereon shall be taken forthwith; (3) No. 14 shall be decided without debate and any division demanded thereon shall be taken forthwith, and subject to the agreement of No. 14 – Supplementary Estimate [Vote 31] shall be moved and the proceedings thereon shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion after 40 minutes, and any division demanded thereon shall be taken forthwith, and the following arrangements shall apply: (i) the speeches shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion after 20 minutes, and the speeches shall be confined to the Minister for Agriculture and Food, the main spokespersons for the Fine Gael Party, the Labour Party and the Technical Group, who shall be called upon in that order, and shall not exceed five minutes in each case; and (ii) immediately following the speeches, the Minister for Agriculture and Food shall take questions for a period not exceeding 20 minutes. Private Members' Business shall be No. 38, Motion re Primary Education.

An Ceann Comhairle

There are three proposals to be put to the House. Is the proposal for the late sitting agreed? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with the arrangements for Nos. 10, 12, 13 and 14 agreed to?

Mr. Kenny

I do not have the heart to fight this here but, on item No.14, I find 40 minutes totally inadequate for a discussion on a Supplementary Estimate relating to agriculture. There is a whole range of issues that need to be teased out.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

Before adopting the proposals, I seek clarification from the Taoiseach in relation to Votes 29 and 35. Vote 29 is a Supplementary Estimate relating to third level and further education. I note from the proposal on the Order Paper for today that the provision is for the princely sum of €1,000. What is the Government's intention in proposing a supplementary sum not exceeding €1,000 in relation to the payment of sundry grants and grants-in-aid in respect of third level and further education? I know the situation is pathetic in terms of third level grants and for those attending the colleges. Is it possible that the proposition is to confine this to a sum no greater than €1,000?

On No. 35, I have no doubt that the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism would be able to operate his office on a similar sum to the period 31 December but I am incredulous in relation to Vote No. 29 on third level education, particularly when we are looking at sums of €47 million for first level and €44 million for second level, so I seek clarification on the sums for both Votes.

The Taoiseach

On Deputy Kenny's point, the Supplementary Estimate is for technical purposes. There is a meeting of the agriculture committee tomorrow when a range of issues will be taken up with the Minister for Agriculture and Food.

On Vote 29, a token supplementary is required for Vote 29 to third level and further education for technical accounting reasons. Some €600,000 is needed for the Dublin Dental Hospital which is a grant-in-aid subhead, however there are sufficient overall savings in the Vote to meet this requirement. The €1,000 is a technical means to vote the €600,000 which is required but it is within savings of the Department so it does not require any more than that in the technical subhead.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

That is not it. It is Vote 29.

An Ceann Comhairle

There is no provision for coming back in a second time, Deputy. Are you opposing the Order of Business?

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

No. The Taoiseach's response to health matters does not apply to the provision for third level and further education to the year's end. It is Vote 29, not Vote 6.

An Ceann Comhairle

We cannot have a discussion on that matter. It is a token Estimate and the same provision applies every year.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

A figure not exceeding €1,000 can hardly be translated into a sum of the order of €0.6 million.

An Ceann Comhairle

We cannot have a discussion on it here.

The Taoiseach

I will explain that because I do not think Deputy Ó Caolain was listening to what I said. I am talking about Vote 29. A token Supplementary Estimate is required for Vote 29 – third level and further education – for technical accounting reasons. A sum of €0.6 million is needed for the Dublin Dental Hospital, which concerns further education. It is a grant aid sub-head but there are sufficient overall savings in the Vote to meet this requirement. The procedure that is always adopted when one is switching a sub-head or if one wants a requirement within a sub-head, is to put €1,000 forward to be able to make the grant in aid sub-head available. In this case, €0.6 million is being transferred within sub-heads to the Dublin Dental Hospital. However, because there is a sufficient saving, the mechanism they use is to put forward a technical sub-head of €1,000.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

It is more creative accounting.

The Taoiseach

It is not. One is not allowed to switch without the Housing voting for it. That is all it is.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the Deputy opposing the proposal?

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

No.

An Ceann Comhairle

Proposal No. 2 is agreed to. On proposal No. 3, I call Deputy Kenny.

Mr. Kenny

The Taoiseach has indicated to me that there will be a committee meeting tomorrow. It would be helpful, and would save us many problems, if the Minister for Agriculture and Food, Deputy Walsh, gave straight answers to straight questions. There is a range of concerns in the agricultural sector but I will not oppose the proposal on the basis that the Minister will give a commitment to answer questions at the committee tomorrow about this and other issues.

Mr. Rabbitte

I take this opportunity to signal that starting tomorrow six items have been marked out for guillotine. It is unique so early in the life of a Dáil that six separate matters are to be guillotined.

An Ceann Comhairle

How does that relate to proposal No. 3, Deputy? Can we dispose of these proposals?

Mr. Rabbitte

I would ask the Taoiseach to look at it before the Order of Business tomorrow.

An Ceann Comhairle

Proposal No. 3 is agreed to. We now move on to the Order of Business proper. I call Deputy Hogan.

Mr. Hogan

In view of the tragic death of a worker in Ballymun and the consequences for his family, when will the safety, health and welfare at work Bill be introduced in the House? It has been promised on many occasions.

The Taoiseach

The heads of the safety, health and welfare at work Bill have been approved. The Bill is being drafted and it is expected to be introduced early next year.

Mr. M. Higgins

Will the House be provided with an opportunity to debate the report of the three wise men on future cuts in expenditure in different Departments, which include among other things the abolition of the Western Commission and the Film Board? I am raising this matter because if the report is not debated here there is every danger that some of the cuts envisaged will be introduced by stealth. The report has raised the most serious issues concerning democracy.

An Ceann Comhairle

We cannot go into the contents of the report, Deputy.

Mr. M. Higgins

My question is whether time will be made available to discuss this report by what I would call the three yahoos.

The Taoiseach

The Government has already adopted what we thought was useful in the report and the remainder went by the board. It has already been decided upon, but if people want to debate some of the issues that is not a problem.

Mr. M. Higgins

Do I take it Government time will be provided?

The Taoiseach

If possible. There is no urgency about it.

An Ceann Comhairle

It is a matter for the Whips, Deputy.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh

Given the recent revelations that Irish based firms have been linked to nuclear weapons testing, in that they are engaged in manufacturing super-computers that simulate nuclear testing, and also that serious flaws have been revealed in the transparency of the arms trade—

An Ceann Comhairle

Does the Deputy have a question concerning legislation?

Aengus Ó Snodaigh

Is it intended to review Ireland's current military export control systems? Will the Government introduce legislation to this effect?

An Ceann Comhairle

We can only discuss promised legislation on the Order of Business.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh

That is what I just said. Will the Government introduce legislation?

An Ceann Comhairle

What legislation?

Aengus Ó Snodaigh

On current military export control systems.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is legislation promised in this area?

The Taoiseach

No.

An Ceann Comhairle

No such legislation is promised. I call on Deputy Deasy.

Mr. Deasy

Is the Government seriously thinking of releasing Dessie O'Hare under the Criminal Justice (Temporary Release of Prisoners) Bill, 2001 and, if so, when?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is out of order.

Mr. Broughan

What is the current time frame for the radio communications Bill, given that a report published yesterday by the EU's enterprise commissioner stated that during the Taoiseach's Administration Ireland has slipped to the bottom of the communications league?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should give the Taoiseach a chance to answer the question on promised legislation.

The Taoiseach

There is no listed Bill on radio communication.

Mr. Broughan

It is on list C for next year, but we clearly need it much earlier.

The Taoiseach

I will raise it with the Minister but it is certainly not on the short-term list.

Mr. Sargent

A number of Bills listed under promised legislation seem somewhat outdated.

An Ceann Comhairle

Does the Deputy have a question on any particular Bill? The Social Welfare Bill is due before us at 6 o'clock.

Mr. Sargent

I refer to the Forestry (Amendment) Bill and the Fishery Harbour Centres (Amendment) Bill. Given that our fisheries seem to be completely unusable now due to a lack of fish, according to the European Commission, and given that, following the Estimates, the forestry sector is losing 1,000 jobs—

An Ceann Comhairle

If the Deputy does not ask about a specific Bill, we will move on to the next business.

Mr. Sargent

—are these Bills still promised? If so, will they be the same Bills?

The Taoiseach

The proposals for the Fishery Harbour Centres (Amendment) Bill to establish new management structures are to be prepared next year. The heads of the Bill are not expected until late in 2003 so it will be a while before that legislation comes before the House. The heads of the Forestry (Amendment) Bill are expected in the new year, so the Bill should be introduced later in 2003.

Mr. Stanton

The Government does not seem to have any sense of urgency with regard to doing something about insurance, which is the biggest problem we have at the moment. When will we see proposals before the House to reform the law on personal injuries?

An Ceann Comhairle

Legislation dealing with the Tánaiste's proposals on insurance will be introduced in the new year.

Mr. Stanton

That concerns the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform. It is the wrong Department.

An Ceann Comhairle

Please, Deputy Stanton, allow Deputy Gilmore to speak.

Mr. Stanton

There is no sense of urgency whatsoever. The country is closing down.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Stanton, if you cannot be orderly in the House we will move on to the Social Welfare Bill. We cannot stay here until 7 o'clock discussing the Order of Business.

Mr. Gilmore

I understand that arising from the Kelly judgment, the Government is preparing the Electoral Bill. When will it be circulated and brought before the House?

The Taoiseach

There is no legislation arising from the Kelly judgment. That decision has been made and we have to comply with the new regulations by 20 December, so there is no question of any such legislation being introduced in the next five sitting days.

Mr. Gilmore

Will the Taoiseach say whether legislation is to be brought forward after those five days?

An Ceann Comhairle

No legislation is promised.

Mr. Gilmore

The Taoiseach drew the distinction of five days.

The Taoiseach

I am drawing the distinction to save the Deputy from making the mistake of waiting for legislation next week when he is meant to fill in his form.

Mr. Gilmore

The Taoiseach should worry about his form, not mine.

The Taoiseach

I am concerned that the Deputy's form will not be in, and that he will go on his Christmas holidays and will miss out. That is the only reason I raised it.

Mr. Gilmore

It will be a great deal easier to fill out my form than the Taoiseach's.

Mr. Naughten

Given that Irish Rail has overturned a decision on a commitment given bythe Taoiseach not to close its rail freightdivision prior to the publication of the strategic rail review, when will the Transport (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill be introduced?

The Taoiseach

Prior notification to, and approval by, the European Commission is required. The heads of the Bill are expected next year so the legislation will be for next year.

Mr. Hayes

In view of the fact that there is an 8% drop in farm incomes and there are severe problems in the whole agricultural industry, does the Taoiseach propose to bring in any supplementary Bill?

Mr. Crawford

When will the Minister for Agriculture and Food bring in the land Bill so that we can discuss whether or not there is a future in agriculture? With an 8% drop there is no future.

The Taoiseach

The land Bill, which is short, is due next year.