Vol. 564 No. 5
15 Mr. Perry asked the Minister for Finance the reduction which has occurred to date in relation to the proposed reduction of 5,000 in public service numbers which he outlined in his budget; the number of those which have been within health agencies; and the policy now being implemented in relation to vacancies which occur at different levels in the public service. [9656/03]
44 Mr. Rabbitte asked the Minister for Finance the progress made to date by the Government on the way in which and the areas in which the reduction of 5,000 in the numbers employed in the public service will be implemented in regard to his announcement in the budget; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [9735/03]
I propose to take Questions Nos. 15 and 44 together.
Discussions are ongoing with my ministerial colleagues on the reduction over the next three years of 5,000 in authorised public service numbers which I outlined in the budget. Departments and offices were asked in early March 2003 to examine the numbers in their areas of responsibility and to give details on how they proposed to contribute to the overall reduction for their Departments and for those parts of the public service for which their Departments were responsible.
I am currently reviewing all responses with a view to finalising my proposals on how the reduction should be achieved and will be putting my proposals to Government shortly. At this stage. no reductions in authorised numbers have taken place. A number of agencies have been pro-active in anticipating the contribution to the reduction which will be required from them. This is a matter for individual management in the agencies and sectors concerned.
The budget day decision on the reduction in the number of authorised posts in the public service focused on the absolute total number of the reduction rather than the distribution of the reduction across different grades. However, I intend that the reduction should be distributed appropriately across all grades and levels and I do not want a situation of "grade drift" to emerge whereby the reduction is concentrated in the more junior grades. I remain of the view that the reduction can be achieved through natural wastage and I will seek to avoid or minimise the effect on front-line staff providing a service to the public and to ensure that essential services to the public will not be affected by the reduction.
If no reductions have occurred yet, what is the explanation for the ongoing cutbacks in home help services and closure of entire hospital wards? From what source is the drive for these massive cuts in front line services coming, if not from the Minister's proposals? What does the Minister mean by the term "appropriately spread between the different groups within the public service"? Has he in mind that a certain percentage of vacancies will not be filled? Will there be a uniform rule of that nature and how will that impact, in practical terms, on the delivery of services? Does he intend to delegate that entirely to front line management, or will he impose a rule based system?
Any changes being made in the health areas to which the Deputy referred have nothing to do with the numbers policy, as of now, because no decision has been made in that regard. I assume – although this is really a question for the Minister for Health and Children – that such changes reflect management decisions by hospitals and other agencies within their total resources. That is quite separate from the numbers policy which I announced in the budget. With regard to the phrase which the Deputy quoted, what I mean is that when this is finalised, the parties concerned will not be free to implement the required adjustment by applying the reductions at a particularly low level which would involve a relatively small saving in terms of total cost. I intend that the adjustments will be spread across the services. I will have the proposals which come forward assessed quite thoroughly to ensure that there is no undue reliance by Departments or agencies on taking out people at one particular grade. It is intended that the reductions will be achieved through natural wastage, without any involuntary element in this regard.
This process has been in progress since late December. I find it difficult to have matters finalised with various Departments and agencies, for whatever reason. During my time as Minister for Finance, an additional 50,000 persons have been recruited to the public service, bringing the total figure to around 280,000 at the end of 2002. That represents an increase of more than 20% within a short period of time. I intend to cap the figure at 280,000 and to achieve a modest reduction of 5,000 over a period of years by natural wastage. Following such a massive increase in numbers in recent years, it is not unreasonable to expect Civil Service Departments and agencies to come up with a realistic policy of adjustment over the next two years, on the basis of the natural wastage process. They have been given a reasonable period to finalise this matter, failing which we will finalise it for them.
The Minister indicated that his consultations with his colleagues on this matter have now concluded.
No, they have not yet concluded but will conclude very shortly.
The process which the Minister stated commenced in December has now been in progress for four months. Clearly, some members of the Government must be rejecting the reduction in numbers which they are being asked to produce. If the reduction in numbers is to be provided by natural wastage and if, at the same time, front line jobs are to be protected as the Minister has indicated in relation to the health services, for example, how will the Minister ensure that his colleagues in Government will protect front line jobs? When front line employees of the health services retire, such as doctors and nurses in the Mater and, in my own constituency, the James Connolly Memorial Hospital which is facing a cut back of 40 nurses, how does the Minister intend to ensure that the reduction in numbers is not in front line services?
It will be a matter for individual public service managers in those areas to make those decisions. People will continue to be recruited to the public service, including the areas to which the Deputy referred. What I want from the organisations concerned is a schedule as to how we will arrive at the figure of 5,000, which is not very substantial in the context of the overall total. The adjustment will be achieved mainly by not filling vacancies in some areas, none of which will be in front line services. Accordingly, it is not correct to imply that vacancies will not be filled in the areas to which the Deputy referred. The negotiations have been taking place between my Department and the management of the various Departments, not with individual Ministers. We wish to see how this reduction will be achieved over the coming years. There is now a cap on overall numbers, as I announced last December and we will agree a schedule for the reduction of 5,000 over the next two years. I suggest that is a very modest reduction in the overall numbers.
Is the Minister saying there are no negotiations directly with the Minister for Health and Children, but only on the basis of management to management? I find that astonishing.
As the Deputy may be aware, negotiations are conducted between Departments at Civil Service level and, if there are any outstanding matters at the end of that process, they are discussed between the Minister for Finance and the relevant Ministers.
Is the Minister indicating that front line services will be protected? Can we take that to mean there will be no cuts in the number of gardaí, teachers, nurses, doctors or any such services dealing with the public? If all the cuts are to fall within the bureaucracy, does the Minister agree that one of the problems over the past five years is that he has bloated the bureaucracy? Does he agree that the real issue now involves serious reform of those structures, rather than some crude attempt to obtain a reduction of 5,000? Is it not a matter of reforming structures that are just not capable of delivering front line services efficiently?
There will not be a reduction in front line persons such as gardaí, nurses and doctors. There will be no decrease in those areas. The reduction will be achieved through natural wastage and it is up to each individual public sector manager to work within the parameters outlined to them. Of the increase of 50,000 persons over the past five years, some 40,000 were taken on in the health service area, indicating that 10,000 were taken on in other areas. Funds were allocated to the various Ministers who then decided how those funds would be allocated. Naturally, in people-oriented service areas such as health and education, it is clear that much of the additional funds will be expended on increased numbers of personnel. One does not have to be a mathematician to work that out.
I am sure the phrase "natural wastage" will send a shudder of fear through many in the public service. Is the Minister prepared to admit that massive mistakes were made in the late 1980s in particular by adopting a straight line approach to reducing numbers in the public service? It is not only a matter of protecting the front line positions, as they have been described, of teachers, nurses and gardaí. Other positions have become vital in the running of our social infrastructure, including community and social workers. What priority is being placed on those interface positions with people and communities? Very little, I suspect. There is also a difficulty with regard to positions currently remaining unfilled due to other problems such as the lack of properly trained people within our education system. Will those necessary positions now be allowed to lie fallow – for example in the psychological area of the health service? What are the criteria and what does the Government consider important in protecting jobs in the public service?
Learning from the experience of the 1980s, the Government decision in the recent budget was based on a different approach. Due to the exigencies of the 1980s, particularly in relation to public finances, a very rough, crude approach had to be adopted in the area of public service recruitment. Numbers were simply cut. The decision as announced in the budget was that it would not be done in this way on this occasion. The numbers are capped at the level they are currently at and the total number will fall by 5,000 over the next two years through natural wastage.
The second part of the Deputy's question relates to positions that will not be filled. This is a matter for public sector managers to decide in conjunction with their chief executives, and sometimes a Minister.
