Denis Naughten
Question:3 Mr. Naughten asked the Taoiseach the status of the e-government project; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [5295/03]
Ceisteanna – Questions. - Information Society.
The Department of the Taoiseach chairs an interdepartmental group of assistant secretaries general who monitor the implementation of the Government's strategy for the development of the information society in Ireland. That strategy is set out in the document, New Connections, published in April 2002.
Considerable progress continues to be made in the delivery of e-government with Departments and agencies engaged in a wide range of initiatives to put their services on-line. Examples of e-public services now available include on-line services provided by Revenue, the Civil Service Commission and the Land Registry.
Central to the delivery of e-public services is the public services broker which will provide a gateway for the management of access by citizens to on-line services. The broker is being developed by the Reach Agency under the aegis of the Department of Social and Family Affairs. A report of progress in implementing the recommendations in New Connections has recently been published and is available on the Department of the Taoiseach's website. Ireland continues to perform excellently by international comparison for its progress in the delivery of e-government.
Is the Minister of State alarmed, as I am, at the decline in take-up of science and IT subjects at school and college levels? This is undermining our long-term attractiveness as a location for this important sector. While Government efforts in putting hardware into certain areas may be succeeding, a serious problem is developing in the education area which she and her Government ought to address.
It is a source of worry that not enough students are taking science subjects, particularly at second level. That is an issue which the Minister for Education and Science has tackled and continues to tackle in terms of the provision of facilities for the technological side of it. The Deputy will be aware that since 1998, almost €140 million has been made available to schools in respect of the information society and the provision of the necessary hardware for second level schools. To date, substantial capital grants have been made available to ensure that students at primary and second level have the necessary computer facilities. The national centre for technology in education is currently undertaking a census of all schools to determine their infrastructural development needs. The next stage will be to determine how we can integrate the use of computers into the curriculum. For many people, the computer class is a separate class but computers are not used as an integral part of the teaching of history or geography. That is something that is being looked at now through the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment.
Another interest for the education sector would be the rolling out of broadband connectivity, the coming on stream of the availability of flat rate Internet access, etc. and the initiatives being taken to encourage people to take more science subjects. The special grants given to schools for science equipment and the special grants given to schools for every student doing science is a way of encouraging students to take those subjects. There is a need also to encourage more science graduates to teach science subjects because the difficulty is that they are now able to get good jobs in industry and are not being attracted into secondary schools to teach. That is another area that needs to be tackled. Research and development is a central part of the Government's platform to ensure we get investment into the country. The number of computer and technology companies coming here is essential for the high level investment we enjoy. I agree with the Deputy that is something that starts at primary level.
In her reply, the Minister of State stated that €140 million was provided for the purchase of computers for schools and so on. When the Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Martin, was Minister for Education and Science, he made a big play about the amount of equipment going into schools, particularly primary schools. Does the Minister of State agree that many of those computers are lying idle in classrooms because the teachers do not have the expertise to work them? Does she also agree that there is a shortfall in inservice training for teachers on the operation of computers? Will the Minister of State relay that concern to the Minister for Education and Science or is it something of which she is aware?
I do not accept the Deputy's last comment because intensive inservice training was made available to teachers at both primary and secondary level. A number of them who would not be directly involved in the teaching of computers have undertaken these courses. The provision of the hardware has ensured that from a position in 1998 where there was one computer for every 35 pupils, it is now the case that for every 11 pupils there is at least one computer in primary level and one computer for every nine pupils at second level, which is real progress. The dedication and commitment of teachers who have undertaken these courses shows that they are willing to try to integrate the use of computers in their own curriculum subjects.
Does the Minister of State agree that she is almost alone in expressing confidence in the measures the Government has put in place to increase participation in science? Does she agree also that the problem in science is that we are unique in Europe in having no practical aspect to the examination of science, that points are extremely difficult to get in science and, as a result, pupils are not taking up the subject? In terms of her optimism about primary level, 12 years after the proposal to introduce science in the primary curriculum was initiated, only 6,000 teachers have completed training in the teaching of science and only 300 schools have done anything in the area of science. The Minister of State's confidence is misplaced and I ask her, in her very influential position in Government, to inject some urgency into addressing the area of science and IT in education.
I indicated at the outset that it was a cause for concern that not enough students were taking science or that there were not enough science graduates willing to teach science. However, the Deputy will be aware that the report on the teaching of sciences in schools was presented to the Minister last year. It contained a wide range of recommendations and proposals which have been taken on board.
It will take some time. There are a number of issues like those mentioned by the Deputy, including the number of points, but one also must be conscious of an already overloaded curriculum which needs to be looked at, both at primary and second level.
In terms of the broader educational value of science and its importance in the long-term investment of the economy, I accept there is more that needs to be done, not only from the point of view of providing the infrastructure such as the practical facilities but in training teachers and encouraging students to take on the subjects.
Can I correct a number of points about science that were raised and ask the Minister of State a question? The reality is there are many thousands of pupils in primary schools, even long before the debate on science—
Please submit a question. The purpose of Question Time is to elicit information from the Minister and it is not appropriate to give information.
Is the Minister of State aware that there are thousands of children, particularly in primary schools, who have been doing science long before this debate started recently? Does she accept that the problem seems to be in second level, where not enough students will take the science subjects, that there is a crisis, and that we need more students doing science?
I am aware of schools which have made great advances in teaching science particularly of a practical nature, to the extent that in recent years the young scientist exhibition includes a section for primary schools, and that is to encourage all of those students.
Many schools make science a compulsory subject for junior certificate to give everybody a basic foundation in science. The difficulty which then arises is that, in asking students to choose a maximum of six or seven subjects for leaving certificate, they are not then choosing physics, chemistry and biology. There is certainly a difficulty with physics and chemistry. Biology seems to be the more popular subject, particularly among girls. Certainly there needs to be much more done by way of encouragement in that regard.
Is the Minister of State aware that the intake into science courses at third level is showing signs of a serious fall in numbers? What are the reasons for this? Is she concerned, for instance, with the fall in the number of students who are doing higher mathematics at leaving certificate level? In higher mathematics there is no equipment required. Essentially, unless people have some competence in higher mathematics at leaving certificate level, they have no capacity to do engineering, for instance, and they find themselves barred from a significant number courses. Is she concerned that in quite a number of schools the quality of science equipment is so poor that the teaching of scientific subjects at second level is seriously hindered, and there are schools where it is doubtful that the science equipment would pass a check by the health and safety authority?
While I am aware of the responsibility of the Minister of State for information technology, the more detailed questions might be more appropriate to the Minister directly responsible in each Department. Having said that, the Minister of State may answer if she wishes.
Is the Minister of State aware of the fall in the numbers taking science subjects in all the third level colleges? It is at crisis levels in some colleges.
I am allowing your question but I am just drawing attention to the fact that the questions would be more appropriate to another Minister.
The point is that if students do not take science subjects at third level, we will not have people to take up scientific jobs.
My responsibility in this area is co-ordinating the information society agenda, but I am aware of the issue raised by Deputy Burton. It particularly came to light last year with the announcement of the acceptances of the CAO offers, and the vacancies which exist in courses throughout the country.
I am equally aware that courses tend to be affected by trends and popularity. For a long time people did nothing other than business management degrees. There was a time everybody was going for the social sciences, whereas now they are not going for that area either. Courses tend to be popular in cycles.
Last year there was a slight downturn in the technological industry. That might have had a bearing on people's decisions on whether to go into that area, particularly with a view to long-term employment, but I am confident that that can change also.
Will the Minister outline exactly and in as much detail as she can the problem regarding the public service broker initiative? I understand there are technical problems. Is it the case that the wrong technology was picked and that this technology has failed in other countries?
Does the Minister agree that providing computers in schools should be about much more than providing so many computers per student population? Is she aware of the progress that has been made in schools in Northern Ireland in the area of computer education? Northern Ireland is far ahead of us because its Government did more than just supplying computers to schools. It made sure a programme of IT education was implemented also. Many schools here have done their own thing and purchased different types of computers. There has been no co-ordination. Many of these computers are now obsolete and the schools are finding it difficult to replace them. Has the Minister, in her role as e-Minister, plans to co-ordinate this effort across the sector to ensure that value for money is obtained for the taxpayer?
Will the Minister explain what has happened to the e-health project? At the moment, purchasing of materials for the health boards is done on an individual basis. This could be far more efficient if it was done centrally, using the purchasing power of all the health boards together. Does she have information on progress in the other aspects of the e-health programme?
I draw the Deputy's attention to the fact that detailed questions might be more appropriately directed towards the Minister responsible for that area.
The public service broker project has proceeded to the extent that the procurement and tendering process is now under way. The project is the responsibility of the Department of Social and Family Affairs. We are confident that this will be in place before the end of the year because the Government is according it high priority. By this mechanism we will be able to deliver our e-government services.
In my reply, I said that of course ICT in schools was about more than the provision of computers. We have now moved on to consider their use in the curriculum, which has been successful in other countries. To this end, two officers within the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment have been appointed to consider the issue of delivering the curriculum via ICT at both primary and secondary level, which is necessary if we are to take the project to the next stage.
The Deputy also asked about e-procurement. In general, as opposed to specifically in the area of health, quite a bit of headway has been made. The Deputy will be aware of the e-tenders website which is already established. That is the gateway for public sector procurement opportunities and we envisage some progress in that area. There are 10,000 registered suppliers to the site, 1,000 contracting authority users of the site and 45,000 visitors per month. As we continue to review progress we will be able to follow the development of a national tender management process over the next few years. At the moment, although we are able to give information, we do not actually accept tenders on-line as there are issues of security and so on to be overcome. However, the success of the site to date shows the potential it has.
Is the Minister concerned about the high drop-out rate of students from computer and IT courses at third level? Is she concerned about the extremely high drop-out rate at certain institutions? Has her Department plans to deal with the loss of these valuable and scarce students from the area of IT?
The Department to which I am attached, the Department of the Taoiseach, does not have direct involvement in the issues raised by the Deputy, but the Department of Education and Science deals with issues such as these. Perhaps further information can be obtained from the Minister for Education and Science and his Department.
Denis Naughten
Question:4 Mr. Naughten asked the Taoiseach his plans to modernise the Central Statistics Office to facilitate the use of technology for the collection of statistics; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [5296/03]
The CSO has made considerable progress in developing electronic solutions for data capture in recent years. The CSO's e-public service strategy, published in December 2000, set out its strategy on the electronic collection and dissemination of statistics. It identified the CSO's main focus to be on the incremental improvement of the use of technology and related functionality in targeted areas and on the adaptation and use of systems being developed in the international statistical domain.
The main sources of statistical data are household surveys, business surveys and administrative data. There are marked differences between these three data sources in utilising and benefiting from technology. For household surveys, computer assisted personal interviewing (CAPI) technologies, where interviewers record information collected on laptop computers, have been in use for the quarterly national household survey (QNHS) since its inception in 1997 and will be used for the new EU survey of income and living conditions (EU-SILC), which will commence in 2003.
For business surveys, electronic versions of all statistical forms for businesses and associated metadata have been put on the CSO website. All of these forms can be downloaded and a number can be completed electronically and returned using the CSO secure deposit box. The release of this mechanism was one of the most significant developments during 2002. It facilitates the secure transmission of files to the CSO via the Internet. It is in use for a number of surveys at present and it is planned to extend its usage during 2003.
However, it is the view of the CSO that electronic questionnaires alone do not provide the best value solution for data providers, especially when the provider is in regular and/or multiple surveys. The strategy of the CSO for business surveys is to develop ways of automatically extracting data from companies' financial and/or management information systems. Developments in the area of automated extraction from business systems include the collection of cattle prices from livestock marts and a project to modify hotel front office reservation software to enable the automatic extraction of data for the monthly national survey of accommodation establishments.
At present, a wide range of administrative data is used for statistical purposes. The CSO makes use of administrative data in electronic format where feasible. Examples include foreign trade statistics and other information from the Office of the Revenue Commissioners, motor vehicle registration data from the Department of the Environment and Local Government, data from port authorities and payroll data from Departments and local authorities. Much of these data are now transmitted to the CSO via the Internet using the CSO secure deposit box.
The CSO recognises that in order to gain organisational efficiencies, any data collection initiatives must involve re-organisation of the back-end systems. The CSO is currently in the final stages of implementing its IT strategy. This is a major programme involving the migration of all systems from the mainframe to a PC environment. Crucially, it proposes a multi-channel architecture, which will enable the CSO to take advantage of Internet technologies in the acquisition and dissemination of information. It will also position the CSO to take advantage of the e-government initiatives as they come on stream.
The office is also making increased use of scanning technologies to capture data from paper questionnaires. The recent 2002 census of population returns were scanned and recognised for the first time using state of the art technologies with significant improvements in the processing time.
In addition to the examples I have quoted, a range of other initiatives is being undertaken by the CSO. When taken together with those previously mentioned, these will result in continued improvement in the service being provided by the CSO.
Despite the Minister's lengthy reply, the census of population did not seem to feature. This is the most important research conducted by the CSO and in this era of electronic capability it seems extraordinarily slow in producing results from such a vital survey. From a parochial point of view it is crucial for deciding constituency boundaries and is important for planning in many areas. Is there potential to speed up the processing of census data?
It is extraordinary that the data on the number of people working in the public service, which surely must be within the Government brain, are six months in arrears. Why does it take the CSO six months to count the number of people on the public payroll?
I know I gave a lengthy if quickly read answer, during which I referred to the census of population in saying that for the first time all the paper questionnaires were scanned while processing the census. The Deputy will be aware that 1.3 million census forms were returned and subsequently scanned. The introduction of the new technology meant that the information became available more quickly than previously. The final results will be published within a two year framework, which is in line with best international practice and ahead of what we were able to do in the past. All the outputs from the 2002 census will be published on the CSO website using a special package which has considerably speeded up the process of making the information available. I do not have the information regarding the other question the Deputy asked but I will get it for him.
Has the Minister of State a date on which she expects the information from the census to be available, with a view to briefing any boundary commission that may be required in the context of that information? Are arrangements available within the Government administration to share the expertise of the CSO with other bodies which are also involved in collecting information for Government, in the context of the CSO project and improving the efficiency of statistics? In particular, does the Minister of State see the CSO as being available to advise Garda management on the collection of crime statistics and the use of Garda computer systems for statistical collection? These Garda systems seem to be extraordinarily slow and inefficient in capturing data to such an extent that many crimes are no longer effectively reported and those that are reported are not effectively captured by the PULSE system. What the Minister of State said about the CSO and its management systems is truly impressive. Perhaps Garda management and the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform could do with some of its support.
I agree with the Deputy's comments about the CSO. It does a tremendous amount of work as a separate independent body and deserves all the credit it gets, particularly in relation to its advances in technology.
The issue of the final results of the census, particularly the breakdown in local areas, was raised on the last occasion on which I took questions, about a month ago. At the time, I undertook to ask the CSO for the information which I forwarded the following day to Deputy Rabbitte and Fine Gael's spokesperson. I am told the end of June is the earliest the information, which will complete the full detail from the CSO, will be available.
The National Statistics Board works in co-operation with the Department of the Taoiseach in helping to devise systems for sharing information throughout different Departments. It is currently undertaking a project on social statistics, upon which we have little knowledge. The data from the CSO are combined with the National Statistics Board's to ensure we get all the information we need.