Enda Kenny
Question:1 Mr. Kenny asked the Taoiseach if he will report on recent developments in the Northern Ireland peace process; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [14215/03]
Ceisteanna – Questions. - Northern Ireland Issues.
Enda Kenny
Question:2 Mr. Kenny asked the Taoiseach if he will report on his recent contacts with the political parties in Northern Ireland; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [14216/03]
Enda Kenny
Question:3 Mr. Kenny asked the Taoiseach when he next expects to meet with the British Prime Minister; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [14217/03]
Enda Kenny
Question:4 Mr. Kenny asked the Taoiseach if he will report on his recent contacts with the British Government; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [14218/03]
Pat Rabbitte
Question:5 Mr. Rabbitte asked the Taoiseach if he will make a statement on the outcome of his meeting with a Sinn Féin delegation on 24 May 2003. [14320/03]
Pat Rabbitte
Question:6 Mr. Rabbitte asked the Taoiseach if he will make a statement on the outcome of his meeting with US special Ambassador Haass, on 21 May 2003. [14321/03]
Trevor Sargent
Question:7 Mr. Sargent asked the Taoiseach if he will report on his recent meeting with the US special envoy to Northern Ireland, Mr Richard Haass; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [14723/03]
Trevor Sargent
Question:8 Mr. Sargent asked the Taoiseach the contacts he has had with Prime Minister Blair, or with the Northern Ireland political parties, concerning recent developments in the Northern Ireland peace process; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [14727/03]
Enda Kenny
Question:9 Mr. Kenny asked the Taoiseach if he will report on recent developments in the Northern Ireland peace process; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [15213/03]
Enda Kenny
Question:10 Mr. Kenny asked the Taoiseach if he will report on his recent contacts with the political parties in Northern Ireland. [15214/03]
Enda Kenny
Question:11 Mr. Kenny asked the Taoiseach when he next expects to meet with the British Prime Minister; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [15215/03]
Enda Kenny
Question:12 Mr. Kenny asked the Taoiseach if he will report on his recent contacts with the British Government; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [15216/03]
Enda Kenny
Question:13 Mr. Kenny asked the Taoiseach if he will report on his meeting in Dublin on 24 May 2003 with the leadership of Sinn Féin; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [15228/03]
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin
Question:14 Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin asked the Taoiseach if he will report on his most recent contacts with the British Government. [15279/03]
Pat Rabbitte
Question:15 Mr. Rabbitte asked the Taoiseach if he will make a statement on his most recent contacts with the political parties in Northern Ireland. [15285/03]
Pat Rabbitte
Question:16 Mr. Rabbitte asked the Taoiseach when he next plans to meet the British Prime Minister to discuss developments in Northern Ireland. [15286/03]
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin
Question:17 Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin asked the Taoiseach when he next plans to meet the leadership of the Ulster Unionist Party. [16611/03]
Trevor Sargent
Question:18 Mr. Sargent asked the Taoiseach if he will report on his first meeting with the Loyalist Commission; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [16662/03]
Joe Higgins
Question:19 Mr. J. Higgins asked the Taoiseach if he will report on recent developments in the Northern Ireland peace process; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [16746/03]
Joe Higgins
Question:20 Mr. J. Higgins asked the Taoiseach if he will report on his recent contacts with the political parties in Northern Ireland; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [16756/03]
Joe Higgins
Question:21 Mr. J. Higgins asked the Taoiseach if he will report on his recent contacts with the British Government; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [16758/03]
Joe Higgins
Question:22 Mr. J. Higgins asked the Taoiseach when he next expects to meet with the President of the United States of America; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [16774/03]
Joe Higgins
Question:23 Mr. J. Higgins asked the Taoiseach if he will report on his recent contacts with the US administration. [16775/03]
Joe Higgins
Question:24 Mr. J. Higgins asked the Taoiseach when he expects to meet with the British Prime Minister; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [16776/03]
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin
Question:25 Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin asked the Taoiseach if he will report on his meeting with the Loyalist Commission in Dublin on 11 June 2003. [16936/03]
Enda Kenny
Question:26 Mr. Kenny asked the Taoiseach if he will report on his meeting with the Loyalist Commission on 11 June 2003; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [16980/03]
I propose to take Questions Nos. 1 to 26, inclusive, together.
I would like to congratulate David Trimble on his achievement in winning the vote at the Ulster Unionist Council meeting on Monday and I look forward to continuing to work with him and his colleagues in the Ulster Unionist Party and all of the pro-Agreement parties, to ensure that all of the commitments and undertakings in the Agreement are fully implemented.
Prime Minister Blair and I have made it clear following our meeting in Dublin on 6 May that the joint declaration is the route map for implementation of the Agreement and is the shared agenda for both Governments. We will continue to work closely together and with the parties on all those areas where it is possible to do so. It is very clear that we can continue to move forward on a number of important areas including policing, criminal justice, rights and equality and there is a joint commitment by the two Governments to do this.
Together with the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Cowen, I met with the president of Sinn Féin, Gerry Adams, and Martin McGuinness on 24 May. We have also had continuing contacts with the SDLP leader, Mark Durkan, and his colleagues.
I met with David Ford, leader of the Alliance Party and his colleagues on 28 May and both the Minister for Foreign Affairs and I met with Ambassador Richard Haass on 21 May. These discussions have focused on how we can best take matters forward and generate momentum in the political process again. I expect to have ongoing contacts with the parties over the coming period.
I welcome the announcement that Richard Haass will remain as President Bush's special envoy to Northern Ireland, continuing the work which he has been doing. He has already made a valuable contribution and I look forward to working closely with him and the US Administration as we seek to make progress. It is important that we have continuity at this time and I am extremely grateful for the ongoing commitment of President Bush and his Administration to the process. I would also like to wish Ambassador Haass well in his new role as President of the Council on Foreign Relations. I have no immediate plans to meet with President Bush.
Contacts between the two Governments are ongoing and the Minister for Foreign Affairs, the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy McDowell, and the Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs, Deputy Kitt, attended the British-Irish Intergovernmental Conference in London on 20 May. Both Governments will liaise closely in the period ahead and the Minister for Foreign Affairs and the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland are meeting again today. The conference will meet again shortly to review progress.
I will meet with Prime Minister Blair in the margins of the European Council meeting in Thessalonika later this week when we will review the situation generally.
At the initiative of Archbishop Robin Eames, I met with members of the Loyalist Commission on 11 June. We had a useful exchange of views. I believe it is important to build relations with unionism and loyalism and this meeting was part of that process.
Despite the difficulties, we have a real opportunity to build a peaceful future in Northern Ireland and loyalists and republicans have an important role to play in ensuring that we have a peaceful summer and a calm marching season.
I thank the Taoiseach for his reply. Does the Taoiseach fear that in the aftermath of the recent vote in the Ulster Unionist Party there is a danger of further loss of momentum, in that it is reported that some of those who failed on this occasion believe they still have an arm-lock, to use their own words, on Mr. Trimble and the capacity for him to make progress? Does the Taoiseach have in mind, either through his discussions with Mr. Adams or Mr. Haass, or indeed with the British, any initiatives that might start to fill what is a dangerous vacuum, which appears to be emerging at present, during which little or nothing is being done on decommissioning issues and where there is a sense of loss of progress, and does he feel that there is scope for some of the players to now kick-start a move that could result in mutual reinforcing moves from different parts of the community?
I agree with Deputy Richard Bruton that it is a difficult period and there are dangers. All of my experience, like that of everybody else who has dealt with the Northern Ireland brief over the years, is that whenever there is a political vacuum, it is dangerous. We saw that at the weekend and, frankly, we were lucky at the weekend. I thank the Garda and the Police Service of Northern Ireland. The two bombs were very large and good work by both police services prevented them from exploding and creating a difficult situation. The bomb in Derry contained 1,200 lb. of explosives so one can see that there are people around who would be very glad to use the vacuum to create difficulties and equally, with the bomb south of the Border, people were obviously up to activities that were designed to make the Unionist Party conference at the weekend even more difficult that it was.
Therefore I agree that this is a difficult period. On the issue of where we go and our plan, "Yes" is the answer to the Deputy's question. We have a very strong view. Our view is that we must take all of the aspects we can in the Joint Declaration and move as quickly as possible on their implementation. Therefore, everything that was not directly linked to what we were trying to do some weeks ago should be moved forward.
In the discussions that I mentioned in the reply between Deputy Cowen, Deputy McDowell and Deputy Kitt, and the meetings that I have had, we have taken all the aspects in the Joint Declaration that we believe can be implemented and we have outlined to the British Government how we think that should be done and we will continue to press – in the meeting the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Cowen, will have today and in my meeting with Prime Minister Blair on Friday – for implementation. We believe that if we keep on doing this, we will create a momentum and can continue to get action, particularly during the marching season.
On the difficulty on political progress, we must do as much as we can over the next fortnight because from the first week in July until the end of August, it becomes extremely difficult to make political progress, whether the year is a good or bad one. We will continue to try, but people do not make themselves available and the system in the North becomes quite difficult for a long period until after the marches on 12 August. Almost 3,000 marches will take place during that period. That is why the meeting is taking place today.
We have had a great deal of contact with Ambassador Haass who has been talking to the British Government. We have put forward our views at those meetings to which I referred. Our whole effort now is to try to get implementation on as much of the Joint Declaration as we can over the next few weeks.
I wish the Taoiseach success in those initiatives. On the timing of the Assembly elections specifically, has he, through his discussions with the British Government, a clearer view of when those elections may occur or is that picture beginning to become clear?
As the Taoiseach stated, we are at the start of the marching session and in recent days he has had meetings both with the Loyalist Commission and the leader of Sinn Féin. Following those meetings, does the Taoiseach feel that there is a meeting of minds or a willingness to step back from unnecessary conflict during this marching season and did he receive any assurances from any of the groups involved that a positive approach would be adopted to what is always an extraordinarily difficult time for both communities?
On the elections, I am very clear in my mind, but I am not sure we have a clear position agreed by all of the parties. The failure to hold elections a month ago was a bad mistake and failure to hold them in autumn would be a desperate mistake. I have said this to everybody so I am not saying it here for the first time, and I have outlined all my reasons for that. I simply do not believe one can withstand a vacuum and keep the political momentum without an Assembly and an Executive, without full-time politicians being at their place of work, and without the North-South bodies working or functioning properly, even though they are still existing on a care and management basis. I believe people will lose faith and confidence in the process.
The fact is that the Executive, for all its problems, had a high TAM rating with the public as a parliamentary assembly and the people had become accustomed to the system and dealing with it on issues through various pressure groups, interest groups and so on. To drift it out into any kind of lengthy period creates an enormous vacuum and makes that vacuum worse. If we do not have the elections in the early autumn, we will head into winter and spring and back into the summer, and God knows what will be the position then.
I repeat that view again today, and I will repeat it again to the British Prime Minister. Frankly, I cannot see how we could work through that period. This is probably the last chance for Northern Ireland questions in this session. At present, I have my hand in a whole lot of dykes, trying to keep people together. One would not be able to do that over a sustained period. We have endless meetings, with everybody everywhere just trying to keep the process going, and the answer is to have elections.
The Deputy asked whether there is any light at the end of the tunnel. I hope to meet David Trimble on the other side of a successful election. Much depends on him. Whether he uses his admittedly narrow victory to move on and to try to make progress or whether the elements in his party, which are clearly divided, continue to hold it back is a question I cannot answer.
My wish is obvious. We are ready to work with David Trimble and with the pro-Agreement side to do all we can and, as they say in Northern Ireland, to stretch all we can, to help with as many issues as much as possible.
Others are also prepared to do that. People were helpful in the past week. Sinn Féin and others were helpful on issues over the past week or two in the lead up to this conference. We have been through this many times. There have been 11 meetings of this kind. The question is what happens after the meetings and whether there is a progression. I hope that will be the decision and if not it will be a difficult summer.
To answer the Deputy's question about the marching season, I have spoken to republicans and loyalists. I met members of the UDA, UVF and Red Hand Commandos for the first time. It is difficult to make a judgment but they seem sincere in their desire to have a quieter season. We need to work a little harder to build up more confidence and more contact between the people on the ground on both sides of the divide. There is no point in denying that a divide exists. More contact on the ground would help and I appreciate that people are working hard to achieve that. Without them we would not get through the marching season. From what I am told, I believe they are prepared to make an effort to give the political process a chance. It would be a help to know the date of the election but that may not be possible in the short term. It will be a difficult few months.
I agree with the Taoiseach in his commendation of the work of An Garda Síochána in dealing with dissident elements in the republican movement and the splinter and break-away groups. The Garda appear to have done a splendid job and undoubtedly lives have been saved and people have been saved from injury and maiming. I include the PSNI in those remarks.
The Taoiseach expressed his preference on the question of elections and I agree with his view. Has he had any indication from the British authorities of their latest thinking? It is not apparent to those of us on the outside that it is an immediate pre-occupation of the British Government.
With reference to Deputy Richard Bruton's question about Mr. Trimble and his recent survival in terms of the internal politics of the Ulster Unionist Party, is the Taoiseach still of the opinion that Mr. Trimble is the best prospect for the revival of the institutions and those who support the Agreement ought logically then, to do everything to support Mr. Trimble's position, notwithstanding the frustrations that people may have about his unpredictability or about the lack of vigour with which he has sold the Agreement to his own constituency?
Will the Taoiseach agree that it is a matter of concern that the small majority in the Unionist community for the Agreement at the time of the referendum appears to have been ebbing away and the main cause seems to be the tardiness of the republican movement in complying with the full terms of the Agreement, specifically decommissioning? Will he agree that it is in the interests of the republican movement that Mr. Trimble's position should not be further undermined? Is he of the opinion that in his most recent survival within his party, Mr. Trimble has paid a price in terms of pushing ahead with the Agreement or does the Taoiseach believe he has faced down the anti-Agreement elements within the party?
I am delighted that David Trimble and his colleagues prevailed because the anti-Agreement group within his party have a straightforward policy. I admire them for being straight about it but I disagree with them. Their policy is that they want an alliance with the Democratic Unionist Party and they subscribe to the agenda that the Good Friday Agreement should be re-negotiated. My view is that the Good Friday Agreement cannot be re-negotiated because the people voted for it. In the words of many of the parties in Northern Ireland, there was never an agreement in Northern Ireland that was so dissected and analysed prior to the vote of the people. The majority voted for it and there was constitutional change involved. There is no provision for a review of the Agreement. Those who oppose David Trimble cannot have their way. Despite the difficulties that arise from time to time, David Trimble still offers the best opportunity to move forward. I agree with Deputy Rabbitte that all of us – and I include myself because I have a role to play in helping him – and republicans and Sinn Féin also have an interest because otherwise difficulties can be created for everybody.
I hope David Trimble will join with the Prime Minister, Mr. Blair and I and the other pro-Agreement parties because it is important that we all work together. There are some concerns about aspects of the Joint Declaration. Any agreement has different parties to it and this comes as a package. My view which is shared by the Prime Minister, Mr. Blair, is that the Agreement cannot be cherry-picked. We must implement it as it is. There are many aspects that can be implemented and we should implement them. It would be very helpful to everyone in Northern Ireland and we should proceed with implementation. We must try to do that and get goodwill and deal with some of the issues that were outstanding. We will have to deal with them in a different way now that there is a different context. We have brought issues a long way in recent months and we must try to put them together in terms of the Joint Declaration and see what can be achieved. If we can progress with implementation of the Agreement and the Joint Declaration then we equally must have elections soon.
Deputy Rabbitte asked me a direct question whether I thought the British Government had finalised its views on that. My answer is "no". At today's meeting we will give our analysis again. We have been doing that for the past four weeks and I will do so again to lead into the meeting which I will have with the Prime Minister, Mr. Blair, on Friday. I hope we are winning the argument that the vacuum will not be cured by delay. The elections were delayed for a month and then for three months but we did not agree a date. Another delay will put them into next year. The institutions collapsed in the early winter so that would mean a period of 18 months and that carries far too much risk. The meetings today, Friday and next week will be an opportunity to convince the British Government. I hope there will be agreement on early implementation of those aspects of the Joint Declaration which are clear – we have set out those that are clear – and that there will be progress on a date for the election. We will argue that the election should be held in early autumn at the latest.
Has the Taoiseach had any further reports from the British authorities about the Stakeknife affair? Has he raised with the British authorities reports that British agents within the IRA have been carrying out criminal activities within this jurisdiction?
We have raised the issues centred around Stakeknife and the other issues the Deputy has mentioned. There are a number of issues. It would not be of much benefit to share the information I have with the House. It is not very clear information. Whatever is the position, we have reached a satisfactory conclusion. It is another matter as to whether I will be given any further information this weekend. It would only create more confusion rather than be of assistance if I divulged the information I have been given to date so the answer to the Deputy's question is "no".
Has the Taoiseach raised it with the authorities?
Yes, and I assure the Deputy that I will continue to pursue the general aspects, which are important. We definitely need to learn the full details of any involvement in criminal acts in this jurisdiction. There are many stories and arguments, but I would rather not expand on them until I have a coherent reply, which I do not have at the moment.
All Deputies look for a coherent reply, but we are sometimes disappointed. I ask the Taoiseach to convey to the Garda Síochána and the PSNI my party's appreciation of the interception of the 1,200lb bomb. It was an important operation, as we do not want the shiver of fear and terror felt by people when they heard about the prospect of a 1,200lb bomb to be repeated. The efforts to find an agreement during the summer have been mentioned, but I ask the Taoiseach to appreciate that we are not in advance of the marching season, as it has already begun. A letter in today's Irish News mentioned that roads in the Magherafelt district were closed for four hours. Given the necessity of elections in the autumn, I ask the Taoiseach not to park any search for an agreement because of the marching season.
The issue of collusion is not mentioned in the joint declaration. Following his meeting with loyalists, is the Taoiseach any clearer about whether collusion between the British Government and loyalist paramilitaries is at an end? Given that we will soon have more inquiries than health boards, is there a need to reconsider the prospect of a truth and reconciliation commission, as the Taoiseach mentioned yesterday? Will the Taoiseach take into account the comments of the new president of the Methodist Church, the Rev. Jim Rea, who said that trust is needed to move the process forward? In that regard, I welcome the Taoiseach's meeting with the Loyalist Commission. Can he suggest ways in which Opposition Members or other members of the community can help to build trust?
We can all help to build trust and confidence by making contact and engaging in dialogue. I am certain that the efforts of the republican and loyalist communities and the contacts being made between various groups and organisations are helpful. The issues of collusion and what happened in the past were not discussed to any great extent, obviously, in my meeting with the Loyalist Commission. These matters are being actively reviewed by Mr. Justice Cory. I referred yesterday to the recent statements of certain loyalists about the Rosemary Nelson case, which relates to more recent times. These issues are worrying, but we hope that the new policing arrangements under the new Chief Constable, as well as the new boards and structures, are working well, that progress is being made and that that development will continue.
There are concerns about the reform mechanisms. The oversight commissioner, Tom Constantine, is examining these issues. Perhaps it may be an exaggeration to state that the continuing reforms are already 100% perfect, but it is true to say that leaders are trying extremely hard. The efforts of the oversight commissioner, the ombudsperson and others are aimed at ensuring that policing in Northern Ireland is fair and equitable. It is certain that people are trying. It is hard to answer for every last person in any organisation, but it is clear from the many efforts and reports I see that people are trying very hard – it is only fair that I acknowledge that. We have to ensure that we try to uncover other tensions or instances of malpractice that may have existed in the past and may be lingering in the system. The leaders are assisting this process.
The marching season, which never seems to stop and with which we have had to live in recent years, starts on Drumcree Sunday and ends in late August. I wish it were not such a defined season as the level of tension seems to change. I have learned to understand that people with whom I deal all year seem to visibly change during the season. It is important that we understand that there are huge tensions, which are very real for people living in certain areas. The summer might be a nice time of year for some people, but it is not very nice for people living in certain areas. We have to understand that, and I understand it. People are committed and are genuinely putting in a great deal of effort to ensure that tensions are eased during the marching season. We all know, however, that this process is not easy to control in interface areas as an incident can happen that makes matters difficult. I have received commitments from people who are prepared to do all they can. I met the Loyalist Commission on that basis, to emphasise that we are genuinely trying. I said that I am convinced that people on the republican and Nationalist sides are trying hard and I stressed that it would be appreciated if the loyalist side could try equally hard. That was my understanding.
I welcome the Taoiseach's earlier statement that a deferral of elections beyond the autumn would be a desperate mistake. We all recognise that. I would like to ask the Taoiseach about his contacts with the British Prime Minister since the special debate in this House on 28 May. The House unanimously expressed its support for the phrase in the Government's motion which stated that "elections should take place quickly and, regardless of any other considerations, no later than the autumn". How forcefully has the Taoiseach conveyed the unanimous view of the House to the British Prime Minister? This is a critical matter, regardless of any other considerations.
Does the Taoiseach agree that the election should proceed irrespective of what is happening inside or outside the Ulster Unionist Party? Does he agree that the defining moment of the UUP's position vis-à-vis the working of the Good Friday Agreement was not reached at last Monday night's meeting, but was reached in last September's compromise motion, agreed between David Trimble and Jeffrey Donaldson? I agree with those who described the motion quite accurately as an exit strategy, to all intents and purposes. These are the concerns of many people.
I have listened carefully to the Taoiseach's responses. Can he offer us a further indication of the British Prime Minister's intent? The Taoiseach has indicated that he has not noted sufficient clarity or a conclusion to the British Prime Minister's deliberations on a recall date for the Assembly elections. Can the Taoiseach give us an insight into his expectations in that regard? Does he feel that Mr. Blair will reach the same conclusion he has reached, which is shared by the overwhelming mass of elected opinion on this island?
I wish to ask, finally, about the British Prime Minister's position vis-à-vis the so-called intelligence services in Britain and their operation in Ireland. There is major concern that the British Prime Minister's position regarding the UK secret service has been compromised by his acceptance of wildly exaggerated claims from that source in relation to the war in Iraq. There is real concern that Mr. Blair is now stretched – to use a word the Taoiseach used earlier – or compromised by that relationship.
The Deputy must ask a question.
In the Taoiseach's view, how does that affect his position vis-à-vis the same services in regard to the situation in the north of the island and the co-operation that is required on a number of levels, not least, in relation to the issue we addressed here yesterday – the work of Mr. Justice Barron?
The questions touch on different aspects of the matter. In reply to the last one, I think the British Prime Minister is genuinely helpful on all issues to do with intelligence, in so far as the people answering directly to him are concerned, whether it is the GOC service or his meetings with army officers or the new head of the PSNI. There is not a difficulty in that. He relays information to us. As I said previously, I am not as clear in regard to past issues such as those relating to MI5 and to other matters, but I do not think there is any difficulty. I do not think there is a problem with our dealings on any of these issues with the British Prime Minister.
Deputy Ó Caoláin asked me how hard we pressed in respect of the Assembly elections. We have been pressing the British Prime Minister since long before he postponed the elections for the first time, not to mind the second time. We went along with the first postponement because it was only for a month but we were reluctant even to do that at the time. We never stopped making our point of view. I have no doubt that the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Cowen, will make his views known forcibly today as he does so well, and as we have both done on a number of occasions recently.
As I said, we are not yet in a position to do anything. It was necessary to wait for the outcome of the meeting on Monday night before we moved to the next step. That is why today's meeting was planned as well as my meeting for Friday. I hope we can now begin to make progress on these issues and try to get certainty on an election date.
Deputy Rabbitte made a point earlier, but if we were to do that, one of the concerns that the British Government would have, and that I would have, is that it is fine to hold Assembly elections but what does one move on to next? Let me be clear, when I said I am very anxious to have the election, I do not just want to have the election for the sake of it and then have nothing else happen. When we have the election I want to move on to the Assembly appointing a First Minister and Deputy First Minister. I want to see the cross-party operations work, the Executive set up as it was and for us to get back on track. I do not want to see an election and then a return to stalemate. Clearly, in order to do that we need Mr. Trimble. There is only one way to do that which is to try to get an agreement around the joint declaration. I hope that we do not open it up any further than that and try to move it on from where we were. I think that will be possible. I know the vote was tight the other night but a win is a win, a decision is a decision, and I presume in any democratic organisation people will respect that. I believe Mr. Trimble and his colleagues who supported him who are in the leadership of the UUP and who are pro-Agreement will subscribe to the joint declaration and that we will be able to make progress. I am not saying that it is going to be easy, it is not and never is. However, I hope we can try and move on.
Would the Taoiseach not agree that, by any objective yardstick, the arrangements made in the Good Friday Agreement are now in tatters? There is no Executive, no devolved Government and no Parliament.
Is the Taoiseach aware that the polarisation between the communities is perhaps more entrenched now in the North than at any other time, even by comparison with the worst of times over the course of the past 30 years? Is it not the case that the Good Friday Agreement institutionalised sectarian divisions? Having done so and frozen them in time and being based on parties that are themselves sectarian-based, could it be anything else? Is the postponement of the elections by the British Prime Minister, which was a totally undemocratic manoeuvre, not an admission of failure by him?
What will be different in the autumn? Is it not the reality that there is no guarantee as to when the British Prime Minister or the British Government will order elections in Northern Ireland? Does the Taoiseach have any commitment that before this year is out, the elections will be held?
I am merely repeating what I already said three times in answer to that question. I do not believe Deputy Higgins meant what he said at the outset but his language about the Good Friday Agreement being in tatters is the language of the Continuity IRA and the Real IRA. I know that is not what he meant. That is not the view of all the other pro-Agreement parties. Our view is that while there are certainly difficulties, we want to have the elections. I agree that it is a bad situation that we do not have Assembly elections or an Executive but all of the pro-Agreement parties are of the view that the joint declaration is a good document. While there are arguments about different elements of it, the document itself and the Good Friday Agreement are still implementable. We should keep it to that and try to minimise the tensions on all sides.
I agree with Deputy Higgins on the position in regard to the election. As I said, now that Monday night is over I hope we can move on with Mr. Trimble and the other parties to make progress with the joint declaration in order to get a date for the autumn. That is what we are now endeavouring to do but we do not yet have a commitment to do so.
Lest there be any misunderstanding, I do not support the idea that these so-called dissident paramilitaries represent a way forward. It would be a much worse nightmare.
I put it to the Taoiseach that it is time the Government and the forces involved did understand the position. What does he make of the situation on the ground? He has reports and has met people. Is he concerned about the extent of polarisation? Why did the Good Friday Agreement not come to grips with it? Is it not time for new thinking and a new approach in that regard?
I accept what the Deputy said. I know that is not what he meant. I accept that polarisation exists. Over the past few weeks I have had a good insight into how people think on different sides, which is most interesting. We have to work to understand it and even though I disagree completely with many things that are said, one has to try to build up an element of under standing of people's positions in order to try to move it on.
Deputy Higgins is correct in that people have totally different concepts and objectives of how one can get to a centre position but the only way to do that is to try to take them from their communities and get them to share their views. Some people are of the opinion that we consider them planters and want to drive them out of Northern Ireland. This is a deeply held conviction, as is the belief that my only motivation is to take over the whole lot and to see them run off. We must work extremely hard, as many people are already doing across the spectrum – those in business, sporting organisations and community workers – to try to bring people together. We have to create an understanding that it is possible to co-operate and share things without threatening each other. That is what I mean by building up trust and confidence.
There is not a person on this island who cannot contribute to trying to change people. If one is living in a particular community for a long time and has seen people killed, one gets a particular perspective. One may think the whole world is against one and that somebody is trying to take away everything that one believes in. That is how it is whether one is republican, Nationalist, loyalist or Unionist. We all have to try to understand that. The years of conflict have made many people on all sides bitter. While the Agreement exists, it is not possible to just move it on in a short period of time. A combined effort is now taking place, it is not just a case of both Governments working together. A great number of people are now working to try to improve this situation.