Dinny McGinley
Question:68 Mr. McGinley asked the Minister for Transport his plans for bus deregulation; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [23056/03]
Other Questions. Bus Deregulation.
Róisín Shortall
Question:84 Ms Shortall asked the Minister for Transport further to his recent statement that his plans for bus deregulation in Dublin will provide choice for the consumer, the way in which this will be the case; and the reason he has not opted to franchise out new routes to private operators rather than 25% of existing routes, in order to increase the overall level of service in Dublin. [23093/03]
Willie Penrose
Question:112 Mr. Penrose asked the Minister for Transport the progress made to date with regard to the implementation of the proposals contained in his statement to the public transport forum on 7 November 2002; the timetable for the legislation required to give effect to these proposals; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [23130/03]
Pádraic McCormack
Question:149 Mr. McCormack asked the Minister for Transport his plans for bus deregulation; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [23054/03]
Pádraic McCormack
Question:157 Mr. McCormack asked the Minister for Transport his plans for bus competition; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [23057/03]
I propose to take Questions Nos. 68, 84, 112, 149 and 157 together.
A high quality and efficient public transport system is essential to sustaining the economic and social progress made in Ireland in recent years. To this end, the Government has in recent years increased State financial support for public transport services to historically high levels. However, as in many areas of the public sector, Exchequer investment alone is not sufficient to deliver the level and quality of public service which the current generation of Irish people expect and rightly demand.
The regulatory framework for the bus market in Ireland dates back over 70 years to the Road Transport Act 1932. In the intervening period, the environment for the provision of public transport services and the demands of those using public transport have changed significantly. The regulatory model for public transport needs to reflect a more sophisticated and effective approach which takes full account of the economic and social changes of the past decade and provides a better framework for the years ahead. We must seek greater accountability and customer responsiveness in our public services.
It was in this context that I set out my policy objectives for public transport reform in my Nov ember 2002 statement to the Public Transport Partnership Forum and to the Oireachtas Committee on Transport in June 2003. These detailed proposals can be summarised as follows: as Minister, I will continue to set the overall regulatory policy and approve the broad public transport investment strategy; within that regulatory and investment framework, an independent body will be established to procure public transport services, regulate public transport and allocate current and capital funding for specific purposes from an overall allocation provided by the Exchequer; franchising will be the primary means of procuring bus services in the greater Dublin area; and the independent body will also regulate public transport fares and set and enforce quality standards for public transport service.
The consumer interest is an overriding concern underpinning my approach to public transport reform. At present, public transport services are largely provided on a monopoly basis. Under the proposals I have outlined, bus services in Dublin will be procured through tendering, with an independent body exercising choice on behalf of the customer and taxpayer. If the chosen operator fails to deliver a satisfactory service, it can be replaced. This is not an option which is available under the current monopoly arrangements.
As I indicated in my reply to Priority Question No. 65, discussions on public transport regulatory reform are currently taking place with the CIE trade unions and management. I have also stated my intention to give legislative effect to the reforms during 2004.
In regard to the matter raised earlier by Deputy Cowley, everyone agrees that a nine month wait for a decision under the current legislation is totally unacceptable. When does the Minister intend to publish the new legislation? Will it be early or late in 2004? Is he still of the opinion that 25% of the existing Dublin Bus market will be opened up to private bus operators? In other words, is it not correct that the additional buses and services urgently required in the city of Dublin will not be provided? Will the Minister confirm that not one cent of additional funding will be provided to the new regulatory authority to allow it to ensure that additional services will be provided?
The Minister referred earlier to replacing the 1932 Act with legislation that would include a regulatory scheme for the 21st century. Does he believe that the establishment of five separate agencies to control the new bus markets represents a 21st century approach?
I do not have any proposals to establish five separate agencies.
The Department's website states that, on foot of recommendations from the consultants the Minister appointed, there will be two regional authorities, a Dublin transport auth ority, an overall national regulatory authority and the Department of Transport.
The Deputy stated that I am going to establish five new authorities. The Department of Transport is already in place.
Four plus the one already in place then.
To which authorities is the Deputy referring?
Two new regional authorities—
I do not propose to establish any new regional authorities.
—a national regulatory authority and a Dublin transport authority.
I have no proposals to establish regional authorities. The Department of Transport is already in place and a new regulatory authority could be put in place or that job could be allocated to an existing organisation. It is possible that none of the five authorities to which the Deputy refers would be officially established by me.
I am determined that the new legislation will be put in place in 2004. I would like to be more specific in that regard, but the latter is not possible at this stage. As soon as I am in a position to provide more specific information, I will do so.
In reply to the Deputy's question about opening up the existing market, I am still extremely determined in that regard. We need to open up the existing market and I have set a 25% target in that regard, but we also need to look at the broader market. In this regard, we must consider the greater Dublin area and the outlying areas and the new services and expansions of existing services that are required there. We are also involved in discussions with the trade unions about a broader approach and the total number of services the greater Dublin area and the rest of the country will require.
With regard to funding being made available to the new regulatory authority for the procurement of services, subsidies will continue to be required in the area of public transport. As already stated, these will be the subject of a bidding process.
However, there will be no additional funding other than to cover inflation.
It is too early to make a statement in that regard. If there is rapid expansion in an area of Dublin and new services, which cannot be procured on a commercial basis, are required and the State decides to provide them, subsidies will be made available. There will continue to be subsidies for public transport, where they are needed and as demand requires.
It is difficult to pin the Minister down. One of the justifications he used for deregulating the Dublin bus market is that he wants to provide choice for consumers. Will he explain how franchising out a route on which services are currently provided by Dublin Bus to a private operator will provide choice? There will be no choice on the routes. Will the Minister explain what he means in this regard?
Everyone agrees that there is a need for a substantial increase in the provision of public transport services in the greater Dublin area. Given that this is the case, why is the Minister franchising out 25% of the existing routes? Surely it would make sense to allow Dublin Bus to continue to provide the services it is already doing well to provide in light of the low level of subvention. Surely it would make better sense to franchise out new routes. There is no doubt that many new orbital routes are required. Why is the Minister restricting the franchise system to existing routes? Has he considered the possibility of franchising out new routes?
With regard to bus regulation, the Minister often cites the example of Copenhagen as the way he wishes to proceed. Is he aware that the cost of regulation of the bus market in Copenhagen is almost equal to the total subvention provided to Dublin Bus at present? What does he estimate will be the cost of the regulatory authority for Dublin?
When I talk about choice I mean the taxpayer and the State, the ordinary person. If the yellow bus company wins a parcel of routes through tendering to a regulator, and there is X number of public complaints – this will be laid down in the contract – I presume that company would not be re-awarded the franchise when it comes up for renewal. It will go to somebody else.
The passengers will not have choice. It will be a yellow bus instead of a blue one.
Passengers will suffer between times.
If the Deputy is arguing for total deregulation, where buses—
I am not doing that. I am asking the Minister to justify what he is saying.
I am justifying it on the basis—
The Minister is not justifying it.
I will never satisfy the Deputy in these matters. After we enter franchising, I can see no reason the change of franchises on a regular basis would not become normal practice. As things stand, if a set of routes does not measure up, the taxpayer or customer has no say. If that route were franchised and won by a company that did not perform adequately, the regulatory auth ority would remove that franchise and give it to another company. That provides an awful lot more choice than we currently have where a total monopoly exists.
A good public monopoly.
I have read what the leader of the Deputy's party has said in recent speeches about the need for public services to be competitive.
The Minister should tell us what he thinks.
I accept what the Deputy's leader has said and think he is correct. When we carve the market, and in guaranteeing CIE 75% of the market initially, it is important that we are able to group profitable and unprofitable routes and deal with those as best we can. To do this, it is necessary not to leave the present market conditions in place.
There are plenty of necessary routes that are not currently being provided.
The Deputy and I will not agree on this. While I am not in favour of a monopoly in public transport, the Deputy is.
The Minister wants to carve up the market. It is not about providing additional services.
It is about providing additional services and letting the private sector into the market.
An Leas-Cheann Comhairle
This type of debate is not in order at Question Time.
I will not satisfy the Deputy on this matter. She appears to support the continuance of the monopoly.
I asked the Minister if he will franchise additional routes.
Is the Deputy in favour of no change and no competition?
Why not franchise additional routes?
We will do that too. We will also franchise existing routes. This year's subsidy to Bus Éireann is almost €60 million.
It is low by European standards.
Taxpayers are workers too and have rights.
They are getting good value from Dublin Bus.
I appreciate what the Deputy's leader has said. I believe in a competitive system, the Deputy does not. I do not favour the continuation of a monopoly. The Deputy and I will not agree on this. The Deputy can stay on her side of the argument because I am not going to go there.
Does the Minister have proposals for increasing the bus service?
I do not have a detailed costing for the regulatory authority. It will have to be funded by the industry. I foresee it being a fairly slim organisation.
We will quote the Minister on that in three years' time.
I have no doubt the Deputy will do that. It may be that an existing organisation can take on the role. It is something I am taking a close look at.
Does the Minister intend to appoint an interim regulator prior to the enactment of legislation or will the regulator be appointed subsequent to the adoption of the legislation? Does the Minister not agree that it would be farcical to go ahead with bus competition without having some form of integrated ticketing system?
While I have no difficulty in principle with what the Minister is talking about, I have difficulty with the practicalities of it. Sadly, I believe the Minister's priority is 25% of existing services. For someone using the No. 10 bus route, it will be blue Brennan buses instead of the current No. 10 bus. Does the Minister not agree that we need additional capacity within the Dublin market and the priority should be the increase of this capacity by introducing private operators to provide it? That is what the number one priority should be.
That is exactly what I am trying to do. I am trying to introduce additional capacity.
That is news to me. That is not what the Minister has said to date.
If we introduce extra players they will bring buses with them. Therefore, we will have more buses on the streets and more services for passengers. It is important to point out that Bus Éireann and Dublin Bus have substantially increased fleets – they have got hundreds of extra buses in recent years. They are doing a good job running those and I am committed to quality bus corridors and doubling the number of bus lanes in the city and county in the next year. I have provided funds to the DTO to get on with that. There is no point in having extra buses if they cannot move through the traffic.
The Minister's original plan was to hand over buses.
I have no proposals to appoint an interim regulator. The legislation will lay down the regulatory regime.
The Deputy is right about integrated ticketing – I would prefer to have it fully in place. I attended a presentation on this recently. While it is becoming an enormously high-tech operation, it is exciting. When it is finally rolled out—
It is not rocket science.
The RPA is overseeing this in the short term. It has already entered into agreement with one bus company and is talking to CIE about the issue. It will probably be possible to have some integrated ticketing system in place before deregulation or liberalisation takes place.
I want the Minister to confirm that in talking about his intention to franchise 25% of routes, he is not proposing to franchise any buses and Dublin Bus will at least retain its current complement. Perhaps the Minister will indicate his intentions on meeting his commitments to provide additional buses for Dublin Bus under the NDP.
Has the Minister considered the introduction of service level agreements with Dublin Bus? Nobody is suggesting it should be given a blank cheque. Excellent public bus services are provided in many other cities on the basis of service level agreement negotiated with the transport authority. Why can the Minister's Department not do this?
If the Minister is going to carve out 25% of the market, does it not make sense to give out one section of the city? There are huge advantages in running a bus network when the company can switch buses from one route to another. To do this, routes would have to be near the same garage. Does the carving of 25% of the market not have to be one slice of the pie?
The Minister will be aware there is an integrated system between Dublin Bus and Irish Rail. Could that be rolled out? Is it the Minister's plan to leave the existing buses with Dublin Bus and introduce new buses? Does this mean the Minister will allow Bus Éireann or the Lough Swilly service to compete with Dublin Bus for some of the services in Dublin?
There is a service level agreement between the Department and Dublin Bus. A set of agreements have been signed with CIE in recent weeks.
I cannot be definitive on the mechanism of how this will play out in terms of the precise number of buses everyone will have. This is one of the topics we are discussing with the trade unions in the current round of talks. We are also talking to management about how we can manage the transition. I confess it is complicated—
So the Minister is saying there will not be an additional 25% of buses.
I am not in position to pin down the exact number of buses anyone will have. We will talk to the trade unions about whatever broad understandings we have in the NDP.
From where will the extra capacity come?
The extra capacity will come from the extra buses we are providing. I think we are providing 90 new buses this year.
From privatising 25% of the routes.
No, the Deputy has to listen to this.
We are trying to follow the Minister.
The Deputy asked where the extra buses would come from and I have told her. The 90 new buses are coming from the public sector this year.
That is already in the NDP.
The Deputy asked where the extra buses are coming from.
Where is the extra capacity coming from? From privatisation.
We are not privatising anything here.
The Minister is privatising 25%.
We are opening the market to public transport, to non-Bus Éireann and non-Dublin Bus services. That is what we are trying to do.
Will those people bring their own buses?
We are in the middle of serious discussions at present with the trade unions as to how to implement this. I wish I knew where the Opposition stood on these issues.
Where the Minister stands is getting more and more confusing.
Is the Opposition for opening the market or not? I cannot get a straight answer.
If the Minister had listened he would have heard us.
I am for it. Is the Deputy for opening the market?
The Minister should answer the question.
I will answer if the Deputy answers it.
(Interruptions).
If Deputies want to continue the monopoly they should stand up and say so.
Look at the record.
The Opposition is supposed to have views.
Yes.
My views are clear.
Look at the record.
I do not know if Opposition Deputies are for or against breaking it up. They know where I stand but I cannot figure out where they stand.