Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 11 Dec 2003

Vol. 577 No. 1

Order of Business.

The Tánaiste

The Order of Business today shall be as follows: No. 15b, motion re referral to joint committee of proposed approval by Dáil Éireann of the Risk Equalisation (Amendment) Scheme, 2003; No. 24, Broadcasting (Funding) Bill 2003 [Seanad] – Order for Report, Report and Final Stages; No. 10, International Development Association (Amendment) Bill 2003 – Order for Second Stage and Second Stage, to adjourn at 3.30 p.m., if not previously concluded; No. 25, Ombudsman (Defence Forces) Bill 2002 – Second Stage (resumed); and No. 26, financial motions by the Minister for Finance, 2003, motion No. 5, resumed.

It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that the Dáil shall sit later than 4.45 p.m. tonight and business shall be interrupted not later than 7.30 p.m.; No. 15b shall be decided without debate; the Report and Final Stages of No. 24 shall be taken today and the proceedings thereon shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion at 1.30 p.m. by one Question which shall be put from the Chair and which shall, in relation to amendments, include only those set down or accepted by the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources; the Dáil shall sit tomorrow at 10.30 a.m. and shall adjourn not later than 4 p.m., there shall be no Order of Business, that is, within the meaning of Standing Order 26 (2) and (3), the taking of any divisions shall be postponed until immediately after the Order of Business on Tuesday, 16 December 2003, and accordingly, the following business shall be transacted in the following order: No. 25, Ombudsman (Defence Forces) Bill 2002 – Second Stage (resumed) which shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion within one hour; No. 27, Aer Lingus Bill 2003 – Second Stage (resumed) which shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion at 1 p.m.; No. 28, Public Health (Tobacco) (Amendment) Bill 2003 – Second Stage (resumed) which shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion at 3 p.m.; and No. 29, Dumping at Sea (Amendment) Bill 2000 [Seanad] – Second Stage (resumed) which shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion at 4 p.m.

An Ceann Comhairle

There are four proposals to put to the House. Is the proposal for the late sitting agreed to? Agreed.

Mr. Rabbitte

I wish to record at this stage, and to avoid my intervening on the same issue later, our concern about the manner in which business is being scheduled for cosmetic sittings on Fridays. For tomorrow's sitting it is proposed to impose guillotines on four Bills.

An Ceann Comhairle

I would prefer if the Deputy waited until the proposal dealing with the Friday sitting.

Mr. Kelleher

If only the Deputy was around on Fridays.

Mr. Rabbitte

I will oppose the late sitting when we come to it. Proposals have been put to the Government Whip from all of the Opposition parties to properly and fairly convene the Dáil in full normal plenary session on Friday to allow for Leaders' Questions, Order of Business, Question Time, the Adjournment and so on. On that basis, this side of the House is more than happy to co-operate with the Government.

Mr. R. Bruton

A Cheann Comhairle, if you are allowing comments on each of the later items—

An Ceann Comhairle

I am not taking comments on later items. We are dealing specifically with the late sitting.

Mr. R. Bruton

I support Deputy Rabbitte's statement on Friday sittings.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy, we are not talking about Friday sittings.

Mr. Allen

A Cheann Comhairle, give the Deputy a little space.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Richard Bruton can speak on it when we come to proposal No. 4.

Mr. R. Bruton

I will come back to it, but I support the view expressed by Deputy Rabbitte.

Question, "That proposal for the late sitting be agreed to", put and declared carried.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the proposal for dealing with No. 15b agreed to? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 24 agreed to?

Mr. R. Bruton

The procedure for dealing with Report Stage of a Bill in this House is already very restricted in terms of the time allowed for the comments a Member can make on amendments. There is no point in the Government coming up with guillotine motions to add to the guillotine that is already in Standing Orders for debate on Report Stage. This House should be given proper time to debate Report Stages of Bills and guillotines should not be imposed. We do not approve of this approach which the Government always seems to come up with.

Mr. Rabbitte

I concur with that comment. We had the farcical situation last night on Report Stage of the Companies (Auditing and Accounting) Bill 2003 when amendments were introduced that were not even reached during the debate. In the case of those amendments which were reached, we were not given the opportunity for adequate discussion.

Mr. M. Ahern

That is not true.

Mr. Howlin

We did not finish all the amendments.

Mr. M. Ahern

That is not true. Deputy Rabbitte was not in the Chamber anyway.

An Ceann Comhairle

Allow Deputy Rabbitte to speak without interruption.

Mr. Rabbitte

I watched the performance of the Minister of State at the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Michael Ahern, on the monitor last night. I was immensely impressed by the depth of his lack of knowledge of the amendments.

Mr. Parlon

We are not all showmen like Deputy Rabbitte.

Mr. S. Ryan

Speaking of showmen.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Rabbitte should not allow himself to be deflected from the proposal.

Mr. Rabbitte

Instead of "Parlon Delivers", it should now be "Parlon Delivers Leaflets".

Mr. S. Ryan

The "Minister for Public Service Gaffs".

Mr. M. Higgins

And "Minister for Selling Government Property".

Mr. Durkan

Deputy Parlon is to the right of his party.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Rabbitte should come back to the proposal.

Mr. Stagg

Deputy Fleming did the delivering.

Mr. Rabbitte

This is not the way to organise Report Stage. Under Standing Orders, it is restricted as to who may speak for how long and how frequently. It is regrettable that we have to resort to the guillotine in this fashion.

Mr. Gormley

It has become a feature of this Administration that more and more legislation is rushed through the House without adequate time to be considered by Members.

Mr. Martin

That is because the Deputy is holding up the Order of Business.

Mr. Gormley

Instead of applying the guillotine regularly, there should be real Dáil reform and more sitting days. We have seen the consequences of this unseemly haste with the debacle of the European Arrest Warrant Bill 2003. I ask you, a Cheann Comhairle, to talk to the Chief Whip and the Taoiseach so that we—

An Ceann Comhairle

We are dealing with proposal No. 3.

Mr. Gormley

I know. This is the point. Legislation is being rushed through the House when business should be conducted in a more orderly and considered fashion. Sooner or later, we will get things badly wrong in this House.

Question, "That the proposal for dealing with No. 24 be agreed to", put and declared carried.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the proposal for the sitting and business of the Dáil tomorrow agreed to?

Mr. R. Bruton

No. The Friday sittings approach adopted by the Government is a farce.

Mr. Martin

We are simply trying to get legislation passed.

Mr. R. Bruton

Members have no opportunity to raise questions with Ministers or the Taoiseach. There is no Order of Business and no divisions. It is simply a way of getting business through without any real participation from the House. All of the parties recognise that we need sensible Friday sittings and to modernise procedures.

Mr. Kelleher

It is not sensible to keep calling a quorum during a Friday sitting.

Mr. R. Bruton

The Government, therefore, has to introduce Dáil reform and not persist with the current Friday arrangements which are simply for the convenience of the Executive. It has nothing to do with making Parliament more relevant. It is regrettable that the Aer Lingus Bill 2003 will be guillotined tomorrow at 1 p.m. when many Members wish to speak on it.

Mr. Rabbitte

The Government Chief Whip is chairperson of the Dáil reform committee which she has refused to convene this session. Some 22 Bills were promised and only three have been produced so far. Having had a paucity of business in the early stages of this Government, it is now proposed that we guillotine no less than four measures on a cosmetic Friday sitting. With the greatest respect, it is not the way to organise business in this House. I object on behalf of the Labour Party.

Mr. Gormley

I agree with the comments made by Deputies Richard Bruton and Rabbitte. If the House is sitting tomorrow, will the Tánaiste make time available for a debate as to why Ireland was not awarded a contract for the reconstruction of Iraq, as Ireland so ably assisted George W. Bush in its destruction? Does the Tánaiste not feel it is ingratitude on the part of the Americans?

Question, "That the proposal for the sitting and business of the Dáil tomorrow be agreed to", put and declared carried.

Mr. R. Bruton

I welcome the Barron report on the Dublin-Monaghan bombings and thank Mr. Justice Barron for his work. I understand how it brings back the pain for the victims' families which has been unremitting through the last 30 years. It is pleasing to see that many of the families see this report as an important step in the process of bringing closure.

The report raises important questions and suggests shortcomings the way in which the follow-up inquiry was handled. It leaves the unmistakable impression that forces outside of the paramilitary groups may have been at work and have not yet been brought to account. It also raises questions as to the level of co-operation that was obtained from the British authorities for Mr. Justice Barron's work. I hope the committee will be able to address these important questions. I am glad to see that the appropriate Oireachtas committee will meet the relatives to give an opportunity to find a way forward to deal with outstanding issues and, hopefully, bring closure for them. I welcome this important step in that process.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Richard Bruton has rightly pointed out that the matter is before the appropriate Oireachtas committee, but I will hear comments from the four Opposition parties with a comment then by the Tánaiste.

Mr. Rabbitte

I welcome the publication of the Barron report and thank Mr. Justice Barron for the painstaking work put into it. I acknowledge that the serious matters that are the subject of the report have now been referred, in the first instance, to the appropriate Oireachtas committee.

Given the horror of the atrocities that were committed, it would be appropriate before the House rises for the Christmas recess if the Tánaiste agreed to an initial debate in the House on the report. Our citizens would expect no less than that the Dáil, having received the report, would have an initial debate after all Members had an opportunity to consider in some detail the findings, terms and context of the report and the environment that obtained in the country in 1974.

When will the Nally report and the Cory report be published? The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform took the Nally report in August and promised he would publish as much of it as he could put in the public domain as quickly as possible. The Cory report was taken in October and again the Taoiseach has committed to publishing it without delay consistent with the usual prudent obligations. When will those two reports be in the public domain as they also deal with matters of the utmost gravity?

Mr. Gormley

On behalf of the Green Party, I welcome the publication of the Barron report. We should have a debate on it in the House before Christmas. The report has not brought closure for the families, many of whom are disappointed with it. While I do not want to pre-empt the discussions of the Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women's Rights, does the Government still have an open mind on holding a public inquiry? Does the Tánaiste understand the continuing pain of the families? Will she meet them and will the Taoiseach continue to meet them to discuss the possibility of such a public inquiry?

Mr. Ferris

Along with my colleagues, I welcome the publication of the Barron report. From the report it is evident that there is an indication of British state collusion in this matter. My party has continually called for a public inquiry. The people of Monaghan and Dublin, the victims of this terrible atrocity, deserve a full public inquiry into what happened on that date. The House needs to send a loud and clear message that nothing else will suffice for or do justice to the families of the victims of that atrocity on which there is very substantial evidence of British state involvement.

An Ceann Comhairle

I call the Tánaiste.

Mr. J. Higgins

A Cheann Comhairle, I would like to speak.

An Ceann Comhairle

I can only call the party leaders in accordance with precedent of the House.

Mr. J. Higgins

I raised a crucial matter under Standing Order 31 this morning.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair has ruled on the matter. If I allowed you to contribute, Deputy Higgins, I would not be in a position to refuse other Members who might wish to contribute.

Mr. J. Higgins

Will the Tánaiste comment on the disappearance of files from the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, which is a separate issue to that to be investigated by the Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women's Rights?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should table a parliamentary question to the appropriate Minister on the matter.

Mr. J. Higgins

It is unfair that you want to silence people in the House on such a matter, a Cheann Comhairle.

An Ceann Comhairle

It is not appropriate to cast a reflection on the Chair.

Mr. J. Higgins

I have raised this repeatedly with the Taoiseach over the past five years.

An Ceann Comhairle

I ask you to resume your seat, Deputy Higgins.

Mr. J. Higgins

It is unfair.

An Ceann Comhairle

You know the Standing Orders of the House.

The Tánaiste

I join other Members in expressing my appreciation to Mr. Justice Barron for this report and also for the work done by the late Mr. Justice Liam Hamilton, who began the task before his untimely death. The Dublin and Monaghan bombings were unspeakable and cowardly acts against humanity resulting in 34 people losing their lives. Many more were injured. As Deputies have acknowledged, the pain and suffering continues today and will probably be with the families forever. The Government is always willing to meet the groups representing the families, including Justice for the Forgotten, and they have acknowledged that. In the light of Deputy Rabbitte's request, I will discuss with the Whip whether it is desirable to have a debate in the House before we adjourn for the Christmas recess.

The report is now with the Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women's Rights and the Government will be anxious to see what recommendation comes from that committee. Every Member of the House can contribute to and participate in its work. We would welcome widespread participation in this.

I discussed the Nally report with the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform this morning. He has the report and is anxious to publish it as quickly as possible.

Mr. Costello

He has had it for a long time.

The Tánaiste

There are certain legal constraints, on which the Minister is reflecting, which is why the report has not been taken forward since it was completed.

I understand that, when people sought files in the 1980s, they were missing then, so they have been missing for some time. It might be more appropriate to direct a question to the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform rather than for me to handle it here. I am not aware of all the facts.

Mr. J. Higgins

Did the Tánaiste talk to the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform about it this morning?

The Tánaiste

Yes I did.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Tánaiste should not answer questions asked by way of interruption.

The Tánaiste

Yes, I spoke to him this morning about it.

Mr. Costello

He was due to publish the report in September.

The Tánaiste

While there are legal reasons for not publishing the Nally report, the Minister is extremely anxious to do so. When somebody went looking for the files in the early 1980s, they were missing at that point. Perhaps questions on this matter should be directed through the committee of inquiry and I am sure the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform would be more than happy to deal with this matter by way of parliamentary question.

Mr. Gormley

What about the possibility of a legal inquiry?

The Tánaiste

I do not want to rule anything in or out at the moment.

Mr. R. Bruton

In the context of legislation on insurance, is the Tánaiste considering introducing greater transparency in the loadings that different companies place on motorists given the findings of the report of the Irish Financial Services Regulatory Authority?

An Ceann Comhairle

This does not arise on the Order of Business.

Mr. R. Bruton

The Tánaiste is introducing innovative legislation on insurance and she might like to comment.

An Ceann Comhairle

I appreciate that, but perhaps a parliamentary question to the Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment would be more appropriate.

Mr. Durkan

The Tánaiste wants to comment.

Mr. Rabbitte

The Tánaiste said she spoke to the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform. Given the Minister's promise to renovate the law following the collapse of the inquiry by committee into the events at Abbeylara, does he still intend to introduce legislation to confer on committees the necessary powers to conduct inquiries of a certain nature?

Would the Tánaiste consider it appropriate that during the weeks of the recess, the Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women's Rights should carry out its work in the Dáil Chamber?

An Ceann Comhairle

On the second question, the Committee on Procedure and Privileges agreed yesterday that committee meetings would be held in the Dáil Chamber during the recess.

The Tánaiste

I will have to revert to Deputy Rabbitte in response to the question about the Abbeylara inquiry. I am not aware of the plans in this regard.

Mr. Naughten

The Aer Rianta Bill will provide for the break-up of Aer Rianta. Will there be amending legislation to allow the Minister for Transport, Deputy Brennan, to ensure that the soon to be appointed new chief executive of Aer Rianta is appointed on a temporary basis? I understand that, under current legislation, the Minister cannot insist on any direction.

An Ceann Comhairle

Your first question is in order, Deputy Naughten. The second question might be the subject of a parliamentary question to the appropriate Minister.

The Tánaiste

The legislation will be before the House in February.

Mr. Naughten

Is that 2004 or 2005? This is the latest revised date. Will the Minister for Transport stand over this one?

The Tánaiste

I thought the Deputy was in support of this.

Mr. Brennan

It will be 2004.

Ms Burton

As another Christmas approaches, and people donate generously to charities, is the Tánaiste concerned that, despite seven years of promises from the Government, no charity legislation has seen the light of day? What is the problem with producing such legislation?

Mr. Boyle

The Government does not believe in it.

Ms Burton

Every other European country has it. People are generous and want to give to charities that are reputable.

An Ceann Comhairle

It is not necessary to make a statement, which might be more appropriate to the Second Stage debate on the Bill.

The Tánaiste

The heads of the Bill are imminent and we will have the legislation later next year.

Mr. Gogarty

I will make a statement about charity later. Given the "Prime Time" documentary which showed that considerably more people are involved in child pornography in the country than we thought, would it not make sense to tackle those already known?

An Ceann Comhairle

That issue was dealt with on the Order of Business twice this week already.

Mr. Gogarty

There should be a register of persons who work with children.

Mr. Durkan

To streamline and accelerate certain procedures for infrastructure projects that are of critical national importance is the purpose of the critical infrastructure Bill. Is it showing any signs of life?

An Ceann Comhairle

That matter was raised by, I think, by yourself.

Mr. Durkan

It was, which is why I am trying to resuscitate it, though not with much success.

The Tánaiste

The Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government has circulated the Bill. Good, speedy planning is important.

Mr. Gormley

For incinerators.

Mr. Naughten

Good, speedy press releases.

Mr. Durkan

Given the particular importance of the issues involved at present, now would be a good time for the Tánaiste to make an announcement on the Abbotstown sports centre authority Bill.

The Tánaiste

I understand the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism intends to bring proposals to the Government on sporting infrastructure. It is not possible to say when the Bill to which the Deputy refers will be before the House.

Mr. Timmins

Some weeks ago on the Order of Business, I lamented the fact that only one member of An Bord Bia was based in the USA, despite the fact we have a €7 billion food industry. In his Budget Statement, the Minister for Finance stated that 75 members of An Bord Bia were moving to Enniscorthy, the home town of the Minister of State, Deputy Browne. Given my understanding that the board has only 55 staff in Ireland, can we take it that 20 of them are being brought back from around the world?

Mr. Naughten

Deputy Parlon needs a new calculator.

An Ceann Comhairle

Does the Deputy have a question on legislation?

Mr. Naughten

Will the Minister for Finance pay for their flights home?

Mr. Timmins

When she responds to that question, can the Tánaiste tell me when we can expect a Bill in respect of An Bord Bia to provide us with the opportunity to examine how these people will be brought back from abroad?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Bill in question was already the subject of a question asked by Deputy Upton this week.

The Tánaiste

The heads of the Bill were approved by the Government in the summer of this year. We expect the publication of the Bill in the next few days.

Mr. Costello

Despite the fact that it employs between 20,000 and 30,000 people here, Ireland is the only EU member state which has no regulations whatsoever in respect of the private security industry. The Private Security Services Bill has been on the Order Paper for the last two years, during which time the Minister has tortuously taken it to Committee Stage. Is it known when all Stages of this legislation will be completed?

An Tánaiste

If we had more time to discuss legislation, we might be able to complete it. As the Deputy says, the Bill is ordered for Report Stage. I will discuss the matter with the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform.

Ms Burton

The Government does not want to deal with it.

Mr. Gormley

The House was told the medical practitioners Bill was to come before the Cabinet in October. Can the Tánaiste tell the House when she expects it to come before Cabinet and when it will be published?

The Tánaiste

The Bill has certainly not come before the Cabinet. It is due to be published in 2004.

Mr. Gormley

There has been delay after delay on this. Is there any urgency on the matter?