Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 15 Jun 2004

Vol. 587 No. 2

Leaders’ Questions.

Mr. Kenny

By way of introduction, I refer to the Taoiseach's comment yesterday arising from the results of the local and European elections that Sinn Féin was the winner of the elections. The Fine Gael Party now has the highest number of Members of the European Parliament. The local election results, when compared with the general election results of two years ago, show a 5% increase in Fine Gael support, with Independents gaining 2% and Sinn Féin 1.5%, while the Fianna Fáil Party lost almost 10%.

The Taoiseach and his Ministers have stated that the Fianna Fáil Party will reflect upon the consequences of the elections, listen to the people and take into account the verdict handed down. Does the Taoiseach not accept that the results of the European and local elections amount to a devastating indictment of his Government? The perception which came across clearly to Opposition parties was that the Government is out of touch, has grown too comfortable, arrogant and removed from the people in office and that its decisions are based on looking after itself and its supporters rather than dealing with the concerns, anger and frustration of ordinary people. In view of the devastating loss to his party and the fact that Deputies from his party are arguing for the Minister of Finance to be got rid of and the purse strings released for more spending, does the Taoiseach not accept that the consequence of yesterday's results amounts to a serious loss of confidence in his Government and in him? What does he propose to do about it?

The Taoiseach

As I acknowledged yesterday, the Government, at least the main party, Fianna Fáil, did not do well in the elections. I said that very clearly yesterday. Our colleagues, the Progressive Democrats, increased their vote by 1%. I acknowledge Deputy Kenny's party won five seats in the European elections and I have no difficulty in congratulating him on that. I said that in the local elections, from a very low base, his party decreased its vote by 0.6%. That was the figure published on the front page of the national newspapers yesterday. If my party had spent about 15 years in Opposition, I would certainly not consider it a great victory. Fine Gael did better in the European election.

As far as the electorate is concerned, we are two years into this Government and we have lost support of the order of 7% to 9% in the local and European elections.

Mr. Allen

The Taoiseach is seven years in Government.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is not the leader of his party.

The Taoiseach

The Deputy is 17 years in Opposition.

Mr. Allen

Perhaps that is the problem.

Mr. Durkan

The Taoiseach is a bit green at the edges.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Kenny has submitted a question as leader of his party. He is entitled to have it answered.

Mr. F. McGrath

The Taoiseach should not forget the Independents.

The Taoiseach

The Deputy did not have to run this time.

As far as our policies are concerned, the Government has been determined over the past two years to stabilise the economy in light of the international recession. It did not affect this country as badly as it could have. There was no dramatic increase in unemployment, and we managed to stabilise ourselves and maintain tax rates while still attracting some foreign direct investment. While it was a difficult two years internationally, we managed our way through that. Public expenditure has been reduced from more than 20% to 6%. It was the right action to get macroeconomic policies right, reduce inflation and ready ourselves for an uplift.

Mr. Allen

The Government was saving for the next election.

The Taoiseach

There has been an uplift, as is evident from reports by stockbroking houses. While time will tell whether economic growth will be 4%, 5% or 6%, the economy is expanding well from a low base.

I acknowledge that when economic success does not filter through to people, for example, if they are on a waiting list or a child is not getting what his or her parents believe he or she should from the education system, they feel upset and that we should do more.

We must examine that as a Government, and how we will implement our programme over the next three years in a number of areas. While it is natural that one would like to do better in an election, the economic policies we have followed while not doing silly things for electoral gain are right in the medium to long term.

Mr. Kenny

The Taoiseach recently returned from the G8 summit, at which his sartorial choice generated more publicity than the economic proposals made at the meeting. Does he accept that what has gone wrong is not that the country is not doing well economically but that things do not work and his Government has failed to deal with the issues with which it is faced? It has produced numerous reports, including Hanly, Prospectus, Brennan and transport initiatives, none of which is being implemented, and has failed to deal and grapple with essential problems.

The fourth interim report of the planning tribunal, which was published earlier, states that the inquiry will continue until 2015, another 11 years. What will the Taoiseach do about that? Will he tell the people involved in the decentralisation shambles — everyone supports the concept of decentralisation — what he means when he says that they can apply to stay in Dublin if they wish? Does that mean if they say "No", they will be allowed to stay in Dublin? How does the Taoiseach propose to address the fact that the public has judged the Government on the basis of arrogance, conceit, removal from reality and that it has grown too comfortable in the leather seats of office?

The Taoiseach

I remind the Deputy that the Government parties have more than 30% support. I do not think what he said is the case.

Mr. R. Bruton

That means 70% of the electorate do not support the Government.

The Taoiseach

Our best result in recent years was 39%.

Mr. Ring

The Taoiseach is worse than Tommy Lyons, the Dublin manager.

The Taoiseach

I do not accept that things are not working and are wrong. Yesterday I opened an extension of the Intel plant which involved €2 billion in direct investment. The company provides the most highly skilled jobs in the world in information technology. The company's general manager said the reason he is proceeding with further investment amounting to €4 billion in Ireland is that our policies, the flexibility of the workforce, our education system and our infrastructure are as good as the best in the world. Ireland is the fourth best location for foreign direct investment by US companies. Employment is still growing and these facts are very positive.

There are areas in which there are difficulties. It is clear where they exist and the Government is aware of them. Deputy Kenny says we are not producing reports in areas in need of reform and, where we are do so, he still criticises us. I accept that is a luxury of Opposition. The Government, however, must try to get everything right and we will do that to the best of our ability.

Mr. Rabbitte

Is the Taoiseach aware the Progressive Democrats campaigned in the local elections — they were not involved in the European election — on the basis that decentralisation was "a Fianna Fáil idea"? Is he also aware of Deputy Fiona O'Malley's statement that she would bring the reaction of her constituents to the attention of the Tánaiste? Have the Taoiseach's former councillors in the Dublin area, who fell like nine pins, reported back to him on this issue? Decentralisation in the fashion announced opportunistically in the budget by the Minister for Finance is simply unworkable. Is a review contemplated?

I refer to one example, which is the Tánaiste's Department. She said of 503 staff who replied to a survey, 69 agreed to go to Carlow, of 413 Dublin-based FÁS staff, 30 were prepared to go to Birr, and of 110 staff who replied to a survey by the Health and Safety Authority, 90 said "no", 15 said "yes" and two said "maybe". That is an improvement on Mitchelstown where the promise to relocate 200 Bus Éireann staff has fallen through because the company's management discovered it only employs 80. How does the Taoiseach reconcile this with the commitment made by the Minister of State at the Department of Finance, Deputy Parlon? He told us during the winter months that, as soon as there was a stretch in the evenings, civil servants would oversubscribe to move to various locations, and it would be a case of "follow me up to Carlow" and they would all follow the Minister of State. Having regard to the unfeasibility of this daft, old fashioned Fianna Fáil stroke, will a review be undertaken?

The Taoiseach

It is always interesting to hear the way issues are raised. For four or five years as the last round of decentralisation was completed, various Members representing Dublin, other urban centres and rural areas asked whether it would be undertaken again, whether it was dead and buried and whether we had the heart to reform the public service. A decade ago it was said we would never achieve the number of people we sought to decentralise. Decentralisation must work, it must be organised and difficulties will arise. The Government is committed to decentralisation and the process that has been outlined. We announced the central applications facility that is being provided by the Civil Service Commission. It will show what is feasible and how we make assessments. We will work our way through that. I do not think it is a daft idea. The reality of the city, the national spatial strategy and balanced regional development is that Dublin cannot continue indefinitely to grow at the rate of the last ten to 15 years. That is not a good thing.

At the same time the western seaboard, an enormous part of the country, has excellent potential. It has a good infrastructure which is improving under the capital programme, but it is experiencing depopulation. That is not good for the country, nor is the fact that of our 4 million people 1.8 million live in the greater Dublin area. We have to lead and the best way in which the Government can lead is by following the national spatial strategy and by putting good infrastructure in the regions, making it possible to get to peripheral locations. We need to provide good services, in electricity, telecommunications, broadband and so on, for the regions and the State itself must make an effort to move as much of central Government to the regions as it can. That is what we are engaged in.

Deputy Rabbitte was actively and constructively engaged in negotiation in a previous position. We have to negotiate on these matters and we will do so. Over a short period of time we will deal with these issues. We have set out the process and we will endeavour to do so.

Mr. Rabbitte

I did not ask the Taoiseach whether decentralisation was a good idea or not. Balanced regional development is manifestly a good thing but I asked about the decentralisation package announced by the Minister for Finance. I asked whether the Taoiseach intends, in light of the fallout from the election, to review it and to acknowledge that it is neither feasible nor in the interests of the country.

To quote Dr. Ed Walsh, it may be good for some local towns in Ireland but bad for Ireland. Governance will not be possible. It will lead to the destruction of specialist agencies. One cannot seek to relocate professional staff in a particular niche area and replace them with generalist civil servants from another area. If Ministers are going around beating their breasts and saying they have learnt lessons, what lesson has the Taoiseach learnt in respect of decentralisation? Is there to be a review or not? Is he now saying decentralisation is voluntary? He should not tell me it was always voluntary, as it has been made quite clear to staff that they have no choice and that their promotional prospects will suffer.

The Minister for Defence is engaged in a legal process to compel somebody to transfer to premises owned by a Fianna Fáil councillor in Roscrea and there are other examples. The Minister of State at the Department of Finance, Deputy Parlon, is running around like a demented auctioneer with a gavel, willing to sell anything that will come under the hammer. The attractions in Parlon country are diminishing.

Mr. Ring

He has relocated to the back benches.

Mr. Rabbitte

What lessons has the Taoiseach learnt in respect of decentralisation and what changes will he make? What assurances will he give to civil servants who have put down roots in this city, who have families in education and for whom compulsory relocation is simply not feasible?

The Taoiseach

The Government has already set up an independently chaired decentralisation implementation group. That body is advising the Government on the implementation of the programme and it has already submitted its first report. The Government has accepted all its recommendations and will continue to work with the Office of Public Works on the programme.

I am glad Deputy Rabbitte agrees with me on balanced regional development. I do not accept that specialist bodies cannot move; that would be the easy thing to do. We are currently constructing the Marine Institute in Galway, a €30 million state of the art building with highly sophisticated technological laboratories.

Mr. Rabbitte

That was indigenous to Galway and the Taoiseach knows that.

The Taoiseach

The Central Fisheries Board was on the banks of the Tolka for years protecting the pinkeens. What is the sense in that? The CSO has our best statisticians. Its representatives were in my office a decade ago saying they could never leave Dublin, but they are now happy in Cork.

If we look for reform but give up as soon as someone says he or she does not like that reform, then the country would not be where it is today. We are a modern country. We are trying to make the regions modern and yes, there are difficulties. However, there will be no knee-jerk reaction that we will not do anything. If we do that we will never solve health service problems, we will never advance third level education and we will not continue to modernise the country. That is not what I want. I have worked throughout my political life to bring this country off its knees from being an underdeveloped, third rate country which nobody cared a damn about and which was riddled with violence. We are advancing.

Mr. S. Ryan

Come off it.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Taoiseach's time has concluded.

The Taoiseach

Deputies never like hearing the answers. I am prepared to argue.

An Ceann Comhairle

Allow the Taoiseach to conclude.

The Taoiseach

The Deputy from Balbriggan has spoken, the one who fought for decentralisation from Dublin to Balbriggan. The Government will continue to reform and to build the economy and we will do so successfully.

Mr. Sargent

The Taoiseach is confusing Deputies from Balbriggan.

The Taoiseach

He claims it.

Mr. Sargent

Does the Taoiseach agree that ours is a very unequal society? Reports on divisions within his Government show clearly that Fianna Fáil and the Progressive Democrats are not singing from the same hymn sheet on a number of matters. I refer particularly to the statement of the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform which expressed Progressive Democrat policy to the effect that inequality is good for the economy. If the Taoiseach agrees with that, where stands Sustaining Progress, which states that a central theme of the agreement is the building of a fair and inclusive society to ensure people have resources and opportunities to live life with dignity? Do we understand that this in effect means unequal opportunities?

Where does the Taoiseach stand on the row involving the Minister for Transport offering two licences for private bus routes? Will he support the Minister and the Tánaiste and face down the unions, or will he insist on negotiations with the unions? Where does he stand on the Tánaiste's and Michael O'Leary's views on the building of a second terminal at Dublin Airport? Will he support his backbenchers and negotiate with the unions?

It is quite baffling that the Tánaiste stated it was urgent the Cabinet reshuffled its approach to some tough but nonetheless important decisions. What does the Taoiseach understand that to mean regarding the policy the Government will follow? Will Fianna Fáil or the Progressive Democrats decide where progress is made?

The Taoiseach

There are a lot of questions there. The Government implements equality measures — we spent €11.3 billion in the welfare budget driving equality measures, while we spent €500 million on social disadvantage in education. All our policies and resources go into trying to reduce poverty. Deputy Sargent will know that surveys show poverty is at historically low levels. We have raised the lowest rates of social welfare by almost two thirds and we have had the largest social welfare and child benefit increases ever.

Deputy Sargent asked about my views on the second airport terminal. It is a good idea if it has private sector involvement. How it is structured and run is a matter for debate and discussion with the trade unions, which is important to resolve, but I agree with the idea of bringing in more people and having more jobs, with proper conditions, in the airport.

The Deputy asked where I stood on the bus licence issue. That is simple — I have been involved with the CityWest Business Complex from the day it started and it has 110 companies which employ up to 6,000 people.

Dublin Bus was invited by the management of CityWest to lay on bus services directly to the business campuses for some of those 6,000 people who travel by public transport. In fairness to Deputy Sargent, he is consistent in that regard. Dublin Bus expressed no interest in providing the service so the management of CityWest approached a private operator, Morton's Coaches, which duly applied to the Department for two Dublin bus licences. Dublin Bus expressed no interest yet some of its workers want to go into dispute over it which is madness. That is where I stand on that issue.

Mr. S. Ryan

The Taoiseach knows that is inaccurate.

Mr. Sargent

I asked the Taoiseach specifically about the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy McDowell's comments on inequality being good for the economy. Does the Taoiseach agree with that? What is his position on fostering inequality? Does he agree, as was mentioned on Question Time, that, according to a graph by the European Commission on percentage divergence in national social protection expenditure levels in the EU, Ireland in terms of GNP and GDP is at the bottom of the league in regard to social protection and equality? Will the Taoiseach confront the view which is gaining credence in his Government that inequality is good for the economy? Does he agree that countries such as Sweden, France and Germany, which are at the upper end of the scale in terms of proper provision for the services about which he often talks and which are countries where, as it so happens, the Green Party was in government, should be the model he should follow if he is determined to address the social deprivation which was a reason he lost so badly in this election?

The Taoiseach

I do not want this country to be like Sweden. I do not want a high tax rate, a high dependency rate and many of the other difficulties it has. We have heard all about great countries and great health care. We always referred to the French system but one should look at what happened as soon as they faced a bit of a problem. The Swedes have their own problems with health care.

The Deputy asked me if we stood for inequality. No Government since the foundation of the State has done so much to level the base. That is why 1.8 million people, more than 60% of the adult population, is working. That is why we have so many people in third level education and why we expend resources all the time to help people who are disadvantaged. There are difficulties. I am not saying every issue has been resolved. However, I will not allow it to be said that there have not been huge advances. As the Deputy knows, 200,000 people have been lifted out of the poverty net. It is not correct to state we are at the bottom of the league. This country is not at the bottom of the league in any of those areas.