Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 9 Nov 2004

Vol. 592 No. 1

Leaders’ Questions.

Mr. Kenny

The Government promised in its programme for Government to cut average class sizes. This was not just an election promise but rather a firm commitment in the programme for Government. The programme stated that "over the next five years, we will progressively introduce maximum class guidelines which will ensure that the average size of classes for children under nine years of age will be below the international best practice guideline of 20:1". That commitment is now another broken contract and amounts to nothing more than an announcement to the nation by the Minister for Education and Science, Deputy Hanafin, that this has now become a noble aspiration.

How can the Taoiseach continue to preside over a Government where, day after day, each time Ministers speak, they either put their foot in it or break another promise? What type of Government is the Taoiseach leading? The reality is that the INTO says this objective is doable. The Minister, Deputy Hanafin, is not entirely to blame in this but she sat at the Cabinet table for the last two and a half years where these decisions were made and where, because of mismanagement and bad planning, the Taoiseach and his Government have arrived at the end of the year with a litany of broken contracts that become noble aspirations.

Next year, there will be 1,000 graduates from St. Patrick's Training College in Dublin and Mary Immaculate College in Limerick, 300 more from the smaller colleges and 400 from the on-line course run by Hibernia College. There will be approximately 800 teachers lost between retirements and those leaving the system. Inside the next two and a half years, therefore, this is doable. What does the Taoiseach say to the parents of the 110,000 children in class sizes of 30 or more today? What does he say to parents of the 250,000 children who are in class sizes of between 20 and 30? We are way above the European average. What is beginning to happen is that mainline education is suffering because of bad planning by the Taoiseach and his Government. I want the Taoiseach to speak to the nation and tell the people how a broken contract has become a noble aspiration.

The Taoiseach

It is an awful pity the Deputy's party did not put a few more trainee teachers into teacher training schools when he had an opportunity to do so when there were fewer than 500 such students. However, we now at least have 1,280 students coming through the teacher training schools.

Mr. Kenny

Please God, if we get an opportunity to do so we will deal with that.

An Ceann Comhairle

Allow the Taoiseach to continue without interruption.

(Interruptions).

The Taoiseach

It is always good to start with the truth. The truth is that there were fewer than 500 teachers coming through the system.

Mr. Durkan

What about the promises?

Mr. McGinley

This was the Taoiseach's system.

An Ceann Comhairle

This is Deputy Kenny's question.

The Taoiseach

I will deal with that point shortly. More than 4,000 additional teachers have been employed in recent years. These additional teachers have been used to reduce class sizes, tackle educational disadvantage and provide additional resources for children with special needs. The pupil teacher ratio has fallen from 22.2:1 in 1996-97 to 17.44:1 in 2003-04. Average class sizes have been reduced from 26.6 to 23.9 in the corresponding years. Significantly smaller class sizes have been introduced in disadvantaged schools involved in Giving Children an Even Break or in the Breaking the Cycle programme. Approximately 47,700 pupils in participating schools availed of reduced class sizes of 15 to 20 pupils. The annual intake of undergraduate students in the teacher training colleges has increased from fewer than 500 in 1996 to more than 1,000 in 2004. A further 280 places or thereabouts have been provided in postgraduate teacher training courses this year, bringing to 1,280 the number of students entering our teacher training colleges this year.

It is true that we have not yet done what we set out to do, but the Government is committed to reaching its target. Along the way it has examined the figures, identified where the problems are arising and assigned teachers to those areas where there is educational disadvantage and social exclusion to try to reduce the class sizes in those areas. That has been successful, although it has not been completed, but the position has been improved dramatically.

The programme for Government states the objective in respect of class sizes. Deputy Kenny was correct in respect of the class sizes for under nine year olds. We will continue to work towards the objective. Deputy Kenny correctly quoted the figures for the number of pupils in classes. Some 700 teachers retire every year. We are unlikely to increase the capacity of St. Patrick's College, the Limerick college or the smaller college to the level to take account of that, even though there are capital programmes under consideration in some of these areas.

Ms O’Sullivan

We could if we had the political will to do so.

The Taoiseach

The reality is that as teachers come on board, we have to either slavishly follow what was set down or examine the more appropriate area to which to assign them, for which I make no apologies. Deputy Kenny asked me to speak to the nation. If they are listening, and I hope they are, we made a decision to assign 2,500 teachers to resource education — in respect of which we did not make a promise — rather than just reduce the PPR to assist those most in need. If it is a question of resources and whether one stands for the upper echelons of society or for those on the margins, I stand by the people on the margins.

Mr. Kenny

The Taoiseach started off by saying that it is good to start with the truth. It is also good to stand by the truth. He is reverting to his ethics in Government, which is to get in here and stay here at all costs.

I am not sure whether the Taoiseach understands just how bad this position is. When he speaks of resources in the area of special education, the position is that the Department of Education and Science is advising principals not to contact it by telephone about any problems. Does the Taoiseach understand there are 6,000 assessments untouched in the Department? Does he understand that when he said he is moving to a rights-based system of education for children with special needs that there are all of those thousands of assessments in the Department? At a time when an assessment triggered a placement and a facility for educating those children, the teaching hours of those special needs children are now being reduced from five hours to two hours. Has he spoken to any of the parents of those children? Does he understand the frustration these parents feel when they say the Minister for Education and Science and the Taoiseach have broken their contract and have been telling the people lies?

An Ceann Comhairle

The word "lie" is not appropriate in this House.

Mr. Kenny

It is not my word; it is the word of thousands of people outside this House, to the effect that the Government cannot be believed. We cannot believe a word out of the mouths of its members. In this matter of education, which is central to our society, the Government calmly announced that another broken contract, another broken promise was merely a noble aspiration. They should be ashamed of themselves.

The Taoiseach

I do not wish to keep correcting the Deputy, but I must. It is not true that people are not able to get through by telephone to the Department.

Ms Enright

It is.

An Ceann Comhairle

Allow the Taoiseach to continue without interruption.

The Taoiseach

It is not the case.

Ms Hanafin

Not any more.

The Taoiseach

It is also incorrect to say that there have not been changes in the special needs area. It is only a fortnight since the announcement of the later tranche of the 500 new special needs assistants.

If Deputy Kenny wants to broaden his first question, then I must broaden the answer to it. It is correct that a consultative process on the future direction of education policy has been under way around the country. We have enacted the legislation for special needs, which is to underpin the rights of children with special needs. We have established a special educational council to facilitate the delivery of the support services for pupils with disabilities in schools.

Mr. R. Bruton

The Taoiseach should tell that to parents of children who are losing resource teachers.

The Taoiseach

The OECD has engaged in the strategic review of third level education. It has issued a report. We have targeted, support measures for disadvantaged schools. Some 2,276 schools have benefited. Some 4,000 additional teachers have been appointed at primary level. An additional 2,337 teachers have been appointed at post-primary level. The pupil teacher ratio at primary level has been reduced to just over 17:1. The number of teacher training places has been increased by 30%. The pupil teacher ratio for second level, which we are not discussing now, has also been reduced. Since 1997 the number of teaching posts has also been increased dramatically. We have put in enormous resources to support children with disabilities.

While we did not do exactly what is provided for in the programme for Government, I will not say that it was not a right decision to assign resource teachers, special needs teachers, as against what was provided for because it was the right thing to do. It is correct to help the people who are disadvantaged rather than to slavishly follow a figure. I understand there are people who just want to look after the better off; that is not my policy.

Mr. Rabbitte

The Taoiseach should understand it; they are very close to him.

The Taoiseach

The Deputy could lose me on that one any day of the week.

Mr. Rabbitte

On the decision of the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform by way of a reply to my colleague, Deputy Stagg, when he ruled out an inquiry into the particularly brutal murder of two patients in Grangegorman in March of 1997, the Taoiseach will recall that a youth from my constituency, Dean Lyons, was arrested, questioned and remanded in custody on being charged with this particularly gruesome crime, which took place in the Taoiseach's constituency. He will remember that that youth was questioned on video and gave a pretty inconsequential statement. Following the video being turned off, he made a confession to the two murders, a confession that was expressed in the kind of detail and language that he would not have known unless it had been fed to him. Subsequently, another man admitted to what appeared to be the same crime. Two people confessed to a crime which only one could have committed. Dean Lyons was released and the charges against him dropped. Some seven years on, is it satisfactory that no one has been charged for these crimes and is it not a shameful way in which to treat the three families involved, namely, those of the two women murdered and that of Dean Lyons? Moreover, in one sentence the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform ruled out an inquiry. Is the Taoiseach satisfied that these families should have been treated in this disgraceful way? The fear among the public is that a suspect was readied up for a terrible crime he did not commit.

The Taoiseach

I agree with Deputy Rabbitte's core point that the three families remain affected by that terrible day on the outskirts of Grangegorman, on which two people were brutally and savagely murdered having been stabbed multiple times. I remember that during the Garda investigation into Dean Lyons, many people articulated their suspicions about whether or not he was responsible. As I recall, a person came forward subsequently who had been involved in other offences, although my recollection may not be correct.

I assume the reason the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform has not been prepared to order an investigation into this matter is that it is always the practice when a Garda file on a case remains open and under investigation. I assume that is the case, but I can check with the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform and revert to the Deputy. If it is not the case, I am sure the Garda's view of Dean Lyons, who I understand was cleared by the investigations, has been examined. However, I would have to examine the case as it happened some years ago. As no one was charged with the murders, I understand that the investigation remains open, in which case the type of investigation referred to by Deputy Rabbitte would not be undertaken. However, I will have to check if that is the position with the Garda.

Mr. Rabbitte

I accept it is a long time ago and that the Taoiseach needs to refresh his memory. My point is that no one has yet been charged with the murders some seven years later. An internal Garda inquiry was undertaken, the results of which were never made public. Does the Taoiseach contend that because the investigation file is still open, the circumstances in which a not particularly literate youth who was a known drug abuser confessed in the Queen's English to circumstances about which he could not have known, must be left without being inquired into? Is he satisfied with the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, in a reply to Deputy Stagg stating that "following consideration of the matter, I am not at present satisfied that a public inquiry is required"?

I am not asking for a public inquiry or any inquiry which would imply in people's minds another tribunal. However, I refer the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to his own Commissions of Investigation Act 2004, which I thought we put in place precisely for this kind of purpose, namely, so that an investigation into a matter of profound public interest may be conducted speedily, efficiently and relatively very cheaply.

In a reply to a question from Deputy Costello last week, the Minister stated that some 750 civil actions are extant against the Garda Síochána. There is much public disquiet about this case. Three families are very distressed by the fact that no charges have been brought and it requires the attention of the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform.

The Taoiseach

I accept Deputy Rabbitte's point and will raise the matter with the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform. The language used by the Deputy is employed when an investigation file is still open or is reviewed on a regular basis and, in such cases, the Garda, the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform and the DPP tend not to pursue any inquiry. I also admit that seven years is a long time to wait if clouds hang over someone, or if pressures hand over someone as in the case of Dean Lyons, not to mention the families of the murdered people in this case. Except on rare occasions, internal Garda inquiries are not normally published. However, I will discuss the matter with the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform and inform Deputy Rabbitte of his views.

Mr. Sargent

On RTE's "Questions and Answers" programme last week, the Minister for Transport, Deputy Cullen, sought to compare Aer Lingus with airlines which have gone out of business. He even tried to claim that the company's financial position was somewhat fragile. Will the Taoiseach clarify or correct that impression because the reality is that the company is robust, thanks mainly to the efforts and sacrifices of staff and management down the years, which has been acknowledged by the Taoiseach? As the Taoiseach knows, Aer Lingus has shown substantial profits since 1995. The company predicts profits of more than €95 million this year and has accumulated profits of €248 million since 2002. Will the Taoiseach clarify that the airline is financially healthy?

In that context, what is the Government's position in the face of measures to prepare Aer Lingus for privatisation? Does the Taoiseach accept that an island economy is vulnerable enough without losing its national airline? Moreover, has he had time to reflect on the experience in New Zealand where the Government sold Air New Zealand in 1988 for NZ $660 million and had to rescue it from bankruptcy in 2000 at a cost of almost NZ $2 billion? After its privatisation, schedules were cut back, aircraft were diverted to larger markets in Australia and south east Asia and tourism was decimated. Does the Taoiseach want to risk repeating that experience and will the Government make its position clear so management of the airline has some guidance as to where the Government wants to go?

The Taoiseach

The management of Aer Lingus is in regular contact and discussions with the Minister so it is very clear on the issue. The management, trades unions and workers at all levels in Aer Lingus have done a very good job in recent years in spite of the climate faced by the aviation industry. In order to deal with the difficult circumstances, they had to take appropriate action to turn the airline around, bring it to profitability and try to sustain it. There is no argument about the issue and they should be congratulated for their efforts, which I have done on previous occasions.

The airline has stated that its capital base for future acquisitions needs to be increased. A sum of €95 million will not even buy an aeroplane and the company wants to extend its routes and build formal and informal strategic links with other carriers from the Persian Gulf, Asia and elsewhere in order to build Aer Lingus for the future so that it continues to survive in ten or 20 years' time, regardless of how it is constituted. It is not a question of selling it. It is a question of trying to form strategic alliances in whatever arrangements are to be discussed, to ensure that it is healthy, unlike airlines elsewhere that have bitten the dust savagely due to the prevailing circumstances.

That is the issue to be addressed. It is not a question of what anybody is doing wrong, it is about what we can do right to sustain, maintain and grow the airline into the future. That is the challenge and it is best to comprehend and address it by doing what is necessary at this stage, rather than waiting until we hit an aviation downturn again, which is almost inevitable. We have had two in the past ten years. It is not the fault of anyone in Aer Lingus but it happens for one reason or another, whether it is because of terrorism or economic issues. Currently, it is due to rising fuel prices which are forcing airlines to bear astronomical costs. The airlines had based their costs on crude oil selling at $30 to $32 a barrel, whereas now it has risen to $50 plus. No one in the airline industry here created those difficulties but such issues must be addressed in terms of future development.

Mr. Sargent

I was interested to hear the Taoiseach say, although it is obvious, that €95 million would not buy the kind of aeroplanes Aer Lingus is seeking. I acknowledge, however, that the Taoiseach probably knows a bit more about buying aeroplanes than I do.

Mr. O’Dea

The Green Party only buys bicycles.

Mr. Sargent

Recently the House passed the Electricity (Amendment) Bill, which will allow the ESB to borrow in the order of €6 billion in the new market situation in which the company finds itself. In the context of borrowings, what difference does the Taoiseach see between the ESB and Aer Lingus? Is it not the case that if either company requires capital — as has been mentioned, Aer Lingus certainly requires capital, although a business plan would be useful to see exactly how much — the Government will be prepared to underwrite that borrowing? If the Government is considering it for the ESB, can the same not be done for Aer Lingus? Before Aer Lingus proceeds with such severe outsourcing, will the Government insist that a full business plan is provided, rather than have a three-year strategy, which effectively deals with outsourcing and ceasing activities. Will the House and Aer Lingus management be told what Government policy concerns Aer Lingus in the long term, rather than waiting for the company's management to tell the Government what its job is?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy's time has concluded.

Mr. Sargent

Will the Government treat Aer Lingus in the same way as it treats the ESB, by underwriting borrowing if it needs it?

The Taoiseach

To the best of my knowledge, under the terms of the recent Electricity (Amendment) Bill, the Government is not underwriting the borrowing. The ESB is in a very different position. It is a strong, cash-rich company.

Mr. Sargent

Like Aer Lingus.

The Taoiseach

It has enormous resources and reserves to deal with these circumstances and, therefore, the two companies are not the same. Discussions on Aer Lingus have been going on for a long time to try to assist the company. We have been trying to bring the company through its problems for the past 11 or 12 years, since it went into difficulties in the 1992-93 period. That policy has been working well and is to the credit of the staff, including the various managers, as well as people on the board. We are trying to maintain and sustain Aer Lingus so that it will not be like practically all the other airlines around the world, which have either gone out of business or have been fundamentally restructured. If we are to keep a strong Aer Lingus we will have to examine its means of obtaining capital and resources to do the things it wants to do, such as expanding its services. We have to examine new sources of revenue for Aer Lingus to deal with these issues. That is the Government's policy.