Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 23 Jun 2005

Vol. 605 No. 1

Order of Business.

Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources (Mr. N. Dempsey)

It is proposed to take No. 14a, motion re referral to joint committee of proposed approval by Dáil Éireann for an EU Council framework decision to strengthen the criminal law framework for the enforcement of the law against ship-source pollution; No. 14b, motion re referral to joint committee of proposed approval by Dáil Éireann of decisions of the European Parliament and the Council establishing the European return fund and European refugee fund, and a Council decision establishing the European fund for the integration of third country nationals; and No. 26, Garda Síochána Bill 2004 [Seanad] — Report Stage (resumed) and Final Stage.

It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that the Dáil shall sit later than 4.45 p.m. today and business shall be interrupted not later than 8 p.m.; that Nos. 14a and 14b shall be decided without debate; that the proceedings on the resumed Report Stage and Final Stage of No. 26 shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion at 8 p.m. by one question which shall be put from the Chair and which shall, in relation to amendments, include only those set down or accepted by the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform; and that the Dáil shall sit tomorrow at 10.30 a.m. and shall adjourn not later than 2 p.m.

I wish to outline the proposals for tomorrow's sitting. There shall be no Order of Business within the meaning of Standing Order 26 and, accordingly, the following business shall be transacted in the following order: No. 27, Investment Funds, Companies and Miscellaneous Provisions Bill 2005 [Seanad] — Report and Final Stages, which shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion at 12 noon on that day by one question which shall be put from the Chair and which shall, in relation to amendments, include only those set down or accepted by the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment; and No. 1, Air Navigation and Transport (Indemnities) Bill 2005 [Seanad] — Second and Subsequent Stages.

I wish to outline the proposals for dealing with No. 1 tomorrow. The proceedings on Second Stage shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion at 1.30 p.m. on that day. The opening speech of the Minister or Minister of State and of the main spokespersons for the Fine Gael Party, the Labour Party and the Technical Group, who shall be called upon in that order, shall not exceed 15 minutes in each case; the speech of each other Member called upon shall not exceed ten minutes in each case; Members may share time; and the Minister or Minister of State shall be called upon to make a speech in reply which shall not exceed five minutes. The proceedings on Committee and Remaining Stages shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion at 2 p.m. on that day by one question which shall be put from the Chair and which shall, in relation to amendments, include only those set down or accepted by the Minister for Transport.

An Ceann Comhairle

There are four proposals to be put to the House. Is the proposal for the late sitting agreed?

Aengus Ó Snodaigh

No. I do not oppose the proposal that the House should sit until 8 o'clock, but I would not have any problem with extending the sitting until 12 midnight.

Mr. F. McGrath

Hear, hear. Bring it on.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh

The Government has not provided for a sos despite its proposal for a late sitting. The House takes a sos on Wednesdays when it sits for the number of hours proposed for today. Party spokespersons on justice, who will spend most of the day dealing with the Garda Síochána Bill 2004, will also have to be present in the House for Question Time with the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform this afternoon, and we are expected to sit in the Chamber without a break until 8 o'clock.

Mr. Kenny

It seems we have a rearrangement of the deck-chairs, with the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources taking the Order of Business.

This is appalling treatment of Dáil Éireann. It also amounts to appalling treatment of an Garda Síochána that a Bill of this magnitude, importance and sensitivity, with 284 amendments yet to be debated, is expected by the Government to go through all Stages by 8 p.m. this evening. This is contemptuous treatment by the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform of the Garda Síochána and the representatives of all parties and none.

An Ceann Comhairle

Such remarks would be more appropriately directed towards proposal No. 3.

Mr. Kenny

Yes, but we are expected to consent to have the debate on the Garda Síochána Bill end at 8 p.m. this evening. Even if only two minutes were given to the consideration of each amendment, ten hours would be needed. The Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources knows, as a former Government Whip and a Minister now serving in Government, that this is not right. We have evidence over the years of rushed legislation being taken to the Supreme Court. Such legislation does not work out. As was pointed out yesterday by Deputy Jim O'Keeffe and others, there are very serious matters pertaining to the dismissal of members of an Garda Síochána, definitions of rights of account and so on, that should not be rushed through the House. I warn the Minister and the Government that to do this today is not good practice, that it will make bad law and that they may well live to regret it.

Mr. McCormack

The Minister will not be here to regret it.

Mr. Kenny

I object to the debate being concluded at 8 p.m. this evening.

Mr. Rabbitte

I agree. The green list of amendments circulated this morning says the 284 amendments comprise all the amendments to the Bill. They do not. There are further amendments in the white paper from the Minister. Last night we got only as far as amendment No. 12, which means most of the amendments will never be discussed in Dáil Éireann. How can any Minister defend that? It is quite unconscionable.

I mean no disrespect to the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources, but the Tánaiste is in the car park talking on her mobile phone. The Taoiseach will not come to the House and it now appears the Tánaiste will not do so. We do not know if the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform will be leaving the House at any stage during the debate on the amendments. He may have to attend another photo-shoot today. On any day on which he does not speak before a large number of cameras and microphones, he goes into withdrawal.

Mr. McCormack

Or into a café bar.

Mr. Rabbitte

Having hammered away for more than three weeks since the second Morris tribunal report to get the Government to respond to Mr. Justice Morris, and having extracted 12th-hour amendments from the Minister, it is a disservice to politics and to this House that we do not have the opportunity to scrutinise any of the amendments in the manner they deserve. This is a serious matter, and a serious Bill is being rushed through by the Minister at a time when there is no compulsion on this House to rise on 1 July.

We can meet for an additional week and allow the 283 amendments, plus those on the white list to be debated in Committee for as long as is necessary, given the gravity of some of the amendments being discussed. It is a contemptuous way to treat the House and one must conclude that it is deliberate. Having resisted bringing forward amendments following the second Morris report and having been obliged to do so, the Minister is now insistent that he knows best and that all wisdom reposes on that side of the House. He will force through the amendments in this fashion, which is frankly disgraceful.

Mr. Gormley

Regarding the point made by Deputy Ó Snodaigh, we would quite happily continue until later if we had some time during the day to consider these amendments in greater detail. My colleague, Deputy Cuffe, said yesterday he and his staff are trying to do their very best under difficult circumstances. The Government and in particular the Minister is showing disrespect to this House in the way he has conducted this legislative process. It is a rush rather than a legislative process. It is regrettable that the House can be treated with such utter contempt. Rushed legislation is always bad legislation.

Mr. N. Dempsey

There has already been a very lengthy debate on the Garda Síochána Bill.

Mr. McCormack

Not on the amendments.

Mr. N. Dempsey

The heads of the Bill were published and a public consultation process was initiated.

Mr. Cuffe

The devil is in the detail.

Mr. Bruton

What about the Morris tribunal reports?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Minister without interruption, please.

Mr. N. Dempsey

The report from the Human Rights Commission was examined.

Mr. J. O’Keeffe

The Human Rights Commission has not seen the amendments.

Mr. N. Dempsey

There was a lengthy debate on the Bill.

Mr. Stagg

The Minister is misleading the House. He is only talking about the first quarter of the Bill.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair wishes to make a point. A Deputy from each party made a contribution without interruption. The Minister is entitled to respond without interruption and the function of the Chair is to ensure that happens.

Mr. Stagg

The Minister is misleading the House.

Mr. Bruton

He will read his speech anyway.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Minister without interruption, please.

Mr. N. Dempsey

Regarding the 284 amendments referred to, many of these were debated extensively on a very long Committee Stage in this House. The Minister made himself available.

Mr. Morgan

Amendments are still arriving this morning.

Mr. N. Dempsey

During Committee Stage, the Minister indicated he would make himself available, and he did so. We had a very extensive Committee Stage. The Opposition asked that the two Morris tribunal reports should be debated before discussion on the final Stages of the Bill. The Government agreed and the reports were discussed last Friday.

Mr. J. O’Keeffe

They were prepared statements.

Mr. N. Dempsey

In the amendments and in the Bill itself, the Government has addressed all the issues raised by the Morris tribunal reports.

Mr. J. O’Keeffe

How do we know?

Mr. N. Dempsey

During the course of the Order of Business last week, Deputy Rabbitte made a particular plea that the Morris tribunal reports would be addressed and that was done. If the Opposition want to maximise the time available for the Bill, it should not take such actions as it did yesterday. The Opposition spent 45 minutes on recommittal——

Mr. Stagg

Perhaps we should not call for any votes in the House.

Mr. J. O’Keeffe

We are one step away from a dictatorship.

An Ceann Comhairle

Allow the Minister to speak without interruption.

Mr. N. Dempsey

The Opposition spent half an hour discussing the alphabetical re-ordering of a definition, 20 minutes on whether it should be "the" Garda Síochána or "an" Garda Síochána, and ten minutes on calling a quorum.

Mr. Stagg

The Minister was making Second Stage speeches throughout.

Mr. N. Dempsey

The Opposition wasted nearly two hours yesterday during the course of this Bill through the House.

Mr. J. O’Keeffe

Why would we bother coming here at all?

Mr. N. Dempsey

Regarding the not unreasonable point raised by Deputy Ó Snodaigh about a sos, I am agreeable to the Order of Business being amended to allow half an hour at 1 p.m.

Mr. Stagg

That is a matter for the House.

Question put: "That the proposal for the late sitting be agreed to, with a sos of half an hour at 1 p.m."

The Dáil divided: Tá, 62; Níl, 47.

Tá

• Ahern, Michael.
• Ahern, Noel.
• Ardagh, Seán.
• Blaney, Niall.
• Brady, Johnny.
• Brady, Martin.
• Brennan, Seamus.
• Browne, John.
• Carey, Pat.
• Carty, John.
• Collins, Michael.
• Cooper-Flynn, Beverley.
• Cregan, John.
• Curran, John.
• Dempsey, Noel.
• Dempsey, Tony.
• Dennehy, John.
• Ellis, John.
• Fahey, Frank.
• Fitzpatrick, Dermot.
• Fleming, Seán.
• Fox, Mildred.
• Gallagher, Pat The Cope.
• Glennon, Jim.
• Grealish, Noel.
• Hanafin, Mary.
• Haughey, Seán.
• Hoctor, Máire.
• Keaveney, Cecilia.
• Kelleher, Billy.
• Kelly, Peter.
• Killeen, Tony.
• Kirk, Seamus.
• Kitt, Tom.
• Lenihan, Brian.
• Lenihan, Conor.
• McDowell, Michael.
• McEllistrim, Thomas.
• Moloney, John.
• Moynihan, Donal.
• Moynihan, Michael.
• Mulcahy, Michael.
• Ó Cuív, Éamon.
• Ó Fearghaíl, Seán.
• O’Connor, Charlie.
• O’Donnell, Liz.
• O’Keeffe, Batt.
• O’Malley, Fiona.
• O’Malley, Tim.
• Parlon, Tom.
• Power, Peter.
• Power, Seán.
• Roche, Dick.
• Sexton, Mae.
• Smith, Brendan.
• Smith, Michael.
• Treacy, Noel.
• Wallace, Dan.
• Wallace, Mary.
• Walsh, Joe.
• Wilkinson, Ollie.
• Woods, Michael.

Níl

• Boyle, Dan.
• Broughan, Thomas P.
• Bruton, Richard.
• Burton, Joan.
• Connaughton, Paul.
• Connolly, Paudge.
• Costello, Joe.
• Crawford, Seymour.
• Cuffe, Ciarán.
• Deasy, John.
• Deenihan, Jimmy.
• Durkan, Bernard J.
• English, Damien.
• Gilmore, Eamon.
• Gogarty, Paul.
• Gormley, John.
• Healy, Seamus.
• Higgins, Joe.
• Higgins, Michael D.
• Howlin, Brendan.
• Kehoe, Paul.
• Kenny, Enda.
• McCormack, Padraic.
• McGrath, Finian.
• McGrath, Paul.
• McHugh, Paddy.
• McManus, Liz.
• Mitchell, Olivia.
• Moynihan-Cronin, Breeda.
• Murphy, Catherine.
• Murphy, Gerard.
• Naughten, Denis.
• Neville, Dan.
• O’Dowd, Fergus.
• O’Keeffe, Jim.
• O’Shea, Brian.
• Pattison, Seamus.
• Penrose, Willie.
• Rabbitte, Pat.
• Ring, Michael.
• Ryan, Seán.
• Sherlock, Joe.
• Stagg, Emmet.
• Stanton, David.
• Timmins, Billy.
• Twomey, Liam.
• Wall, Jack.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies Kitt and Kelleher; Níl, Deputies Kehoe and Stagg.

Question declared carried.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the proposal for dealing with Nos. 14a and 14b agreed to?

Aengus Ó Snodaigh

These motions were only received late yesterday and that is not adequate time to consider whether there should be a debate on them in the House before they are sent to the committee. I have no problem with the practice in general but we should be given more notice of such motions before making a decision on whether the House should deal with them in the proper fashion before they are sent to committee.

Question: "That the proposal for dealing with Nos. 14a and 14b be agreed to” put and declared carried.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the proposal for dealing with No. 26 agreed to?

Mr. J. O’Keeffe

I strongly object to this proposal. I am not seeking to make a political point but we are dealing with a major Bill. The Minister has trumpeted it as of huge relevance to the country. That is true and it is only right that we ensure the Bill in its final form is something of which we can be proud. If one were to consider how best to produce a bad product, one could not think of a better way of doing it than to impose a guillotine in the fashion proposed by the Government.

It is not just a truism to state that rushed legislation is bad legislation. There has been ample evidence of it over the years. The Minister should be well aware of this given that he caused a number of immigration Bills to be rushed through the House, which later ended up in the courts. I have been a parliamentarian for a number of years and I urge the House to do the decent thing by the Garda Síochána and by the country. Let us ensure the Bill passed by the House is one of which we can be proud.

I accept that not all the 284 amendments require detailed consideration but some of them are of major significance. In fact, when the Minister presented them he suggested that they were a comprehensive response to the reports of the Morris tribunal. He indicated that they would deal with all the strictures of Mr. Justice Morris. If that is so, let us at least have the decency to examine those proposals. Let us not be faced at 8 p.m., having gone through a quarter of the amendments, with a single question from the Chair proposing that all the amendments fall other than those proposed by the Minister. We will end up with a Bill that is not even half considered.

There is provision in the Constitution for the President to refer legislation to the Supreme Court to be considered for its constitutionality. Two issues will arise at the end of today's proceedings. The first is the process employed by Parliament for dealing with this Bill. That certainly runs counter to the spirit, if not the letter, of the Constitution. If we do not give due process to the Bill, particularly a Bill of such importance, that issue will have to be considered.

There is a second issue. Amendments have been put before the House which will not be given adequate consideration but which comprise new proposals for the summary dismissal of members of the Garda Síochána. These are major new powers. If such powers are to be put in the Statute Book, they must be properly considered. We must be satisfied there are adequate safeguards. Above all, we must be satisfied there is due process and that any member of the Garda who might be faced with such a decision by the Garda Commissioner will have access to a process of natural justice. On my cursory reading of the amendments presented by the Minister, I am not satisfied that there is provision for such due process. That is all I might be able to say today about those provisions because we might not reach them.

My comments are not just directed at the Minister, Deputy McDowell. So far, he has had the backing of the Fianna Fáil Members of the House. I urge them to pause and reflect. In the name of goodness, let us do the proper thing by the Garda Síochána and the country. Give us a decent chance to assess the amendments properly. I guarantee on behalf of Fine Gael, the main Opposition party, that we will deal with this constructively and fairly. However, we need time to do it properly. The Government is not giving us that time.

Mr. Costello

I, too, oppose No. 26 on the Order of Business, for many of the same reasons. The Government is proposing a guillotine at 8 p.m. We saw how the Minister delayed the Dáil yesterday by leaving during the morning to conduct a launch relating to child care and leaving the Minister of State, who has responsibility for child care, in the House as his substitute.

Ms Hanafin

It was for 45 minutes.

Mr. C. Lenihan

The Minister of State was minding the children here.

An Ceann Comhairle

That does not arise under this proposal.

Mr. Costello

The Minister should have known better. It was a contemptuous way to treat the House. I object to the Minister's methodology and to his attitude to his presence in the House. His manner of dealing with legislation is unacceptable. We have raised this issue before and need the Ceann Comhairle's guidance. The Minister first presented this Bill two years ago. Now as the session ends he says the Bill must be guillotined and presents a stack of new amendments.

He does this with every Bill. On leaving this House every Bill is more than double its original size, through amendments from the Minister — he does not accept our amendments. He never thinks out fully what he intends to do and as a result we receive an ad hoc amalgam of legislation that is a set of proposals without any coherent philosophy.

In this case there are two green books of amendments, one provided the day before yesterday, one yesterday, and there are white pages of the Minister's amendments, which are not included in the normal green book because the Minister is keeping them separate for himself. This is the height of inefficiency. We must try to plough through different groups of amendments to find our place in the debate.

The Minister has included 34 amendments in his booklet, making a total of more than 300 amendments to deal with today. There is not the slightest hope that we will reach the seminal amendments introduced by the Minister. Many of these are amendments to which he has agreed kicking and screaming after we insisted on having at least some debate on the reports of the Morris tribunal.

We made statements only on Friday but at least we had a further debate in Private Members' time last night and the day before. There has been some attempt to tease out the implications of the Morris reports and to acknowledge that Mr. Justice Morris specifically requested this House to review the Garda Síochána Bill.

Some of the Minister's amendments are good. I am pleased he has taken on our idea for a whistleblower's charter. That is an excellent amendment for which we have long pressed. I am also pleased he has taken on board several of our proposals regarding the ombudsman's commission and that it has a different shape now from when the Minister embarked on this proposal two years ago. There is a significant proposal to roll out CCTV around the country in the interests of security which is very valuable.

I am not pleased, however, that these measures, plus several other controversial measures, will be nodded through without our having the opportunity to discuss them. It would have been proper to recommit them so we could have a full debate but we will not reach them on Report Stage because of the lack of time and the guillotine.

One controversial amendment is the summary entitlement to be granted to the Garda Commissioner to dismiss members of the Garda Síochána, ordinary gardaí, sergeants and inspectors, that cut across the Garda Representative Association and the Association of Garda Sergeants and Inspectors. Both associations are angry about this because they regard it as an issue for conciliation and arbitration. Yesterday the Minister presented a summary amendment to the Garda Representative Association instead of bringing forward a proposal for conciliation.

An Ceann Comhairle

It is not appropriate to go into detail on amendments at this stage. A general reference is sufficient.

Mr. Costello

I refer to this because it gives the authority to the commissioner on the basis of his or her opinion. Due process is not included in the legislation. We would seek to amend this amendment but will not have the chance to do so. Industrial action will be the outcome of this amendment.

In the second controversial amendment the Minister grants himself total access to all Garda files on all citizens, at whatever stage an investigation may be or wherever documentation may be. This is an example of despotic megalomania.

Ms Burton

It is disgraceful.

Mr. Naughten

It is Ceaucescu-like.

Mr. Costello

This Minister has lost perspective. We will not have an opportunity to amend that outrageous amendment. Maybe he will amend it himself and think about it again as he is inclined to do. Many of the Minister's amendments come from the top of his head.

Has the Minister contacted the Data Protection Commissioner about getting access to these files?

An Ceann Comhairle

That does not arise at this stage. The Deputy may have an opportunity to discuss it during the debate on the Bill.

Mr. Howlin

There will not be another time to discuss it.

Ms Burton

It will come up in the courts.

Mr. Costello

These are matters about which the Minister should be thinking. Deputy Howlin is right, there will not be another time to discuss them. This is our last opportunity to say why we believe this Bill should be recommitted for proper debate on Committee Stage and why we oppose the guillotine.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Costello referred to guidance from the Chair. The position is that the House decides how a Bill will be taken and the Chair, like all other Members in the House, is subject to that decision. It is a matter entirely for the House.

Mr. Kenny

That is not guidance. That is only information.

Mr. Gormley

The Green Party cannot accept the guillotine on this important Bill. My colleague, Deputy Cuffe, outlined yesterday the difficulties he and his staff experienced in trying to deal with a series of amendments. I once described the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform as a binge legislator. If ever we needed proof of that we saw it yesterday when he lined up 100 amendments on the counter and went on the tear.

Mr. Treacy

Along the dotted line.

Ms Burton

No café bar for the Minister.

Mr. Gormley

When the Minister was out of his mind on arrogance he wreaked havoc with the legislative process. The Minister did not want to establish the Morris tribunal. Now he has chosen to ignore the advice of Mr. Justice Morris.

There are children in the Visitors Gallery who are getting a lesson in how not to legislate. As if to emphasise his contempt for this House the Minister came in chewing gum this morning.

Mr. Durkan

He is blowing bubbles.

Mr. C. Lenihan

Is a chewing gum ban in the manifesto for the rainbow coalition?

An Ceann Comhairle

Personal comments about any Member of the House are not appropriate in the Chamber. The motion before the House deals with the guillotine on this Bill.

Mr. Treacy

What would the Deputy like him to eat?

Mr. C. Lenihan

Deputy Gormley is like Steve Silvermint.

Mr. Gormley

It emphasises the Minister's contempt for this House and his arrogance which is unacceptable to people on this side of the House.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy may not go into detail. What may be appropriate later in the day is not appropriate now. That is not appropriate at this stage. The Deputy should not continue when the Chair has ruled on the matter.

Mr. Gormley

It is appropriate because the Ceann Comhairle should be looking after protocol in this House. There is contempt and arrogance in the Minister's manner which is unacceptable.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh

Like the other Deputies I oppose the guillotine.

Mr. C. Lenihan

Deputy Gormley is jealous that the Minister can chew gum and think at the same time.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh

The Minister should be careful. I heard he visited a certain place last night.

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputies should allow Deputy Ó Snodaigh to speak without interruption.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh

Like my colleagues I oppose the guillotine as we have opposed guillotines on other legislation. This guillotine is more serious because of the number of constructive amendments from all sides, including the Minister, that we wish to discuss. We will not reach them.

Yesterday and today the Minister said we were wasting time. The parliamentary procedure allows us to go through amendments, some of them vital. Reference was made to a discussion about the legal title of the organisation. If we cannot even get the legal title correct, how will we achieve the changes required for an Garda Síochána and get them right? One of my major points is that the amendments the Minister has tabled, some in response to the Morris tribunal's reports, are substantial yet have not been referred to the Human Rights Commission or the Garda Commissioner. I say that because the amendments go to the heart of human rights issues. There is an obligation on the Government to refer all legislation with human rights implications to the Human Rights Commission. I accept that the commission examined the Bill, but it did not know what amendments the Minister would produce.

On another point, the Minister has tabled more than 70 amendments. I did not manage to count them all. We will not get through the majority. We probably will not even reach the amendment co-authored by the Minister and me. It is a minor amendment but we will not get to it, which is a pity.

Mr. Morgan

My colleague, Deputy Ó Snodaigh, is bailing the Minister out.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh

The other point is that if one looks at the white sheets sent around with the Minister's amendments, one sees that most are amendments to existing amendments; that is how crazy it is. We end up having to take over an entire bench for the material presented to us, never mind what reports we refer to. We do not have enough time and we should sit next week to deal with this, and the following week if need be. It is important that we get it right, since it is the first major change to the structures of the Garda Síochána since its foundation. I hope that we will not need to return with other Bills to reform it; we should take the time to get it right at this stage rather than come back with new legislation time and again to undo the mistakes made because of the guillotine being forced on us today.

Mr. N. Dempsey

The Government shares the view expressed by Deputy Jim O'Keeffe and others regarding the importance of this Bill. I will not go back over how long it has already been given for consideration.

Mr. Stagg

The first quarter.

Mr. N. Dempsey

We also share the aspiration expressed by Deputy Jim O'Keeffe and echoed by others that we finalise a Bill of which we can be proud, and that is certainly the aim of the Government and the Minister.

Mr. English

One would not think so.

Mr. N. Dempsey

The best way to do so is to ensure that as much time as possible be devoted to debate on the Bill itself rather than about whether we have a guillotine. Yesterday more than two hours were wasted——

Mr. Costello

By the Minister's absence.

Mr. N. Dempsey

——on minor technical details not at all at the core of the Bill. The fact that Deputy Ó Snodaigh and the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy McDowell, have an amendment in common should give us cause for further consideration.

Mr. Gogarty

They can talk about it.

Mr. N. Dempsey

It is a very persuasive argument for allowing extra time. Given what has been said by Deputies and in particular what Deputy Jim O'Keeffe said about trying to be as co-operative as possible if extra time were allowed so that people can focus on the Bill itself in the debate, I know that the Minister is willing to grant extra time for it. With the House's permission, he will agree to extend the time until10 p.m.

Mr. J. O’Keeffe

An amendment has been proposed about which I would like to make a simple comment. The idea of the Minister granting the Parliament of my country the time to discuss an important Bill, the manner in which this has been presented, appals me.

Mr. N. Dempsey

Read what I said.

Mr. J. O’Keeffe

However, two hours for this Bill is not——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy has made his contribution. There will be one contribution from each party. We will put the question that the proposal for dealing with No. 26, the conclusion of Report and Final Stages of the Garda Síochána Bill 2004, be agreed to, including an amendment proposed by the Minister that the House sit until 10 p.m.

Mr. Howlin

May a Member speak?

Mr. Kenny

On a point of information, the behaviour of the Chair has been outrageous.

An Ceann Comhairle

I ask the Deputy to withdraw that.

Mr. Howlin

This is a new proposal.

Mr. Kenny

On 17 May 1995——

An Ceann Comhairle

I ask the Deputy to withdraw the reference to the Chair.

Mr. Kenny

I wished to make a valid intervention, and the Ceann Comhairle is deliberately——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy's party colleague has already made an intervention of this nature.

Mr. Kenny

I want to make another.

An Ceann Comhairle

One Member from each party may speak on a proposal.

Mr. Kenny

I want to inform the Ceann Comhairle of something. On 17 May 1995, in a debate in this House on the Finance Bill, the then Opposition Member, Deputy McDowell, said the following regarding amendments.

They are not agreeable to me or my party in their present form because very important amendments have not yet been circulated to Members of the House. I ask the Chair to vindicate the rights of Members of this House. It is not proper that serious and fundamental measures are being withheld in the context of a guillotined debate.

Need I say more? The Garda Síochána Bill 2004 is even more important.

An Ceann Comhairle

Two Members are offering from Fine Gael, Deputies Costello and Howlin. We can have one of them.

Mr. Howlin

We are in the Labour Party.

Mr. Costello

We are Labour.

An Ceann Comhairle

Yes, Labour. We will have Deputy Costello.

Mr. Costello

The proposal that we put forward today was that there be no guillotine this evening. We sought not a brief extension but for the entire Bill to be recommitted. We wanted a proper debate that could continue into next week and perhaps the following one.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy has already made those comments. He is being repetitive. He should make only a brief comment.

Mr. Costello

I am entitled to reply to a new proposal from the Minister. He has put forward a new proposal, and we have stated why we were not prepared to accept No. 26 on the Order Paper. The Minister has proposed something that is not No. 26.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the Deputy opposed to the extension of the sitting until 10 p.m.?

Mr. Costello

That is not the issue. It is not we who are——

An Ceann Comhairle

We have already debated the guillotine. There is a new proposal from the Minister which is causing a complication to which we will presently come.

Mr. Costello

The Minister has not responded to the reasons that we articulated regarding why that is not sufficient.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is returning to a debate that we have already had.

Mr. Costello

The Minister has merely suggested an extension, and on this side of the House we are totally opposed to this. This is merely the most token——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is going back over a debate that we have already had.

Mr. Costello

——extension in time.

An Ceann Comhairle

We cannot spend the whole day on this.

Mr. Costello

It will not enable us to carry out the examination and scrutiny that this important legislation deserves.

An Ceann Comhairle

That debate has already taken place.

Mr. Costello

I say quite clearly that the Minister and Fianna Fáil are making a big mistake on this issue.

An Ceann Comhairle

I call Deputy Cuffe.

Mr. Costello

I am surprised that Fianna Fáil should be standing behind the Minister on this issue, on which he has made such a faux pas.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair now proposes to put the third proposal.

Mr. Cuffe

A Cheann Comhairle——

An Ceann Comhairle

Listen, the Chair is speaking. I will put the question, ''That the proposal for dealing with No. 26, the conclusion of Report and Final Stages of the Garda Síochána Bill 2004, be agreed to'', as it stands. The House will be aware that it has already agreed to the late sitting, to conclude at 8 p.m. It is a matter for the Whip if he wishes to make a new proposal at a later stage. However, we cannot take another proposal now, having already agreed that.

Mr. Rabbitte

Perhaps we might accept the Minister's offer of 10 p.m., provided there is no guillotine.

An Ceann Comhairle

Several Members have objected to it.

Mr. Rabbitte

They have objected to the guillotine.

Mr. Cuffe

One of the concerns, as Deputy Rabbitte has pointed out, is the guillotine.

An Ceann Comhairle

Does Deputy Rabbitte wish to incorporate into this a proposal that we rescind the decision that we have already made this morning? This House made a decision that we would sit until 8 p.m.

Mr. Rabbitte

That is correct.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is that agreed?

Ms Burton

There should be no guillotine.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is it agreed that we sit until 10 p.m.?

Mr. Cuffe

We have not made a decision on the guillotine.

An Ceann Comhairle

We are not having a debate on that now.

Mr. Cuffe

Perhaps I might make a counter-proposal.

An Ceann Comhairle

The House has already made a decision this morning, and to rescind that, a proposal will have to come before the House.

Question put: "That the proposal for dealing with No. 26 be agreed."

The Dáil divided by electronic means.

Mr. Kehoe

As a teller, under Standing Order 69 I propose that the vote be taken by other than electronic means.

An Ceann Comhairle

As Deputy Kehoe is a Whip, under Standing Order 69 he is entitled to call a vote through the lobby.

Question again put.

The Dáil divided: Tá, 61; Níl, 48.

Tá

• Ahern, Michael.
• Ahern, Noel.
• Ardagh, Seán.
• Blaney, Niall.
• Brady, Johnny.
• Brady, Martin.
• Brennan, Seamus.
• Browne, John.
• Carey, Pat.
• Carty, John.
• Collins, Michael.
• Cooper-Flynn, Beverley.
• Cregan, John.
• Curran, John.
• Dempsey, Noel.
• Dempsey, Tony.
• Dennehy, John.
• Ellis, John.
• Fahey, Frank.
• Fitzpatrick, Dermot.
• Fleming, Seán.
• Fox, Mildred.
• Gallagher, Pat The Cope.
• Glennon, Jim.
• Grealish, Noel.
• Haughey, Seán.
• Hoctor, Máire.
• Keaveney, Cecilia.
• Kelleher, Billy.
• Kelly, Peter.
• Killeen, Tony.
• Kirk, Seamus.
• Kitt, Tom.
• Lenihan, Brian.
• Lenihan, Conor.
• McDowell, Michael.
• McEllistrim, Thomas.
• Moloney, John.
• Moynihan, Donal.
• Moynihan, Michael.
• Mulcahy, Michael.
• Ó Cuív, Éamon.
• Ó Fearghaíl, Seán.
• O’Connor, Charlie.
• O’Donnell, Liz.
• O’Keeffe, Batt.
• O’Malley, Fiona.
• O’Malley, Tim.
• Parlon, Tom.
• Power, Peter.
• Power, Seán.
• Roche, Dick.
• Sexton, Mae.
• Smith, Brendan.
• Smith, Michael.
• Treacy, Noel.
• Wallace, Dan.
• Wallace, Mary.
• Walsh, Joe.
• Wilkinson, Ollie.
• Woods, Michael.

Níl

• Boyle, Dan.
• Broughan, Thomas P.
• Bruton, Richard.
• Burton, Joan.
• Connaughton, Paul.
• Connolly, Paudge.
• Costello, Joe.
• Cowley, Jerry.
• Crawford, Seymour.
• Crowe, Seán.
• Cuffe, Ciarán.
• Deenihan, Jimmy.
• Durkan, Bernard J.
• English, Damien.
• Gilmore, Eamon.
• Gogarty, Paul.
• Gormley, John.
• Healy, Seamus.
• Higgins, Joe.
• Higgins, Michael D.
• Howlin, Brendan.
• Kehoe, Paul.
• Kenny, Enda.
• McCormack, Padraic.
• McGrath, Finian.
• McGrath, Paul.
• McManus, Liz.
• Mitchell, Olivia.
• Moynihan-Cronin, Breeda.
• Murphy, Catherine.
• Murphy, Gerard.
• Naughten, Denis.
• Neville, Dan.
• Ó Snodaigh, Aengus.
• O’Dowd, Fergus.
• O’Keeffe, Jim.
• O’Shea, Brian.
• Pattison, Seamus.
• Penrose, Willie.
• Rabbitte, Pat.
• Ring, Michael.
• Ryan, Seán.
• Sherlock, Joe.
• Stagg, Emmet.
• Stanton, David.
• Timmins, Billy.
• Twomey, Liam.
• Wall, Jack.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies Kitt and Kelleher; Níl, Deputies Kehoe and Stagg.

Question declared carried.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the proposal for the sitting and business of the Dáil tomorrow agreed?

Mr. Kenny

I do not agree. I thought there would be an Order of Business tomorrow. I am particularly concerned about the Air Navigation and Transport (Indemnities) Bill 2005. I understand this Bill addresses the issue of dirty bombs made of chemical or biological material. Today is the 20th anniversary of the tragedy of the Air India crash off the south coast. The potential liability for the State here is up to €9 billion. After 1 July, insurance cover will be withdrawn from a number of companies, which will potentially leave the State with massive liabilities. There are 12 pages and 19 sections in this Bill and it is to be rushed through in an hour and a half. That is not sufficient time and the Minister knows it. Deputy Mitchell on behalf of the Fine Gael party proposed inserting a sunset clause in the Bill that would return it to the Oireachtas to allow time to explore alternatives and examine whether there should be an overall European Union approach to this issue. This is of serious concern, not only because of world terrorism but because of the massive potential liability to the State. For that reason I am opposed to No. 4 on the Order of Business.

Mr. Rabbitte

If we are to have Friday sittings because it suits the Government's programme at this stage, then we ought to have the Order of Business in the normal way. Three Bills will be guillotined tomorrow. The guillotine is now a regular weapon in the armoury of the Government. It is not acceptable and the Ministers denounced it when they were on this side of the House. I oppose it for these reasons.

Mr. Gormley

We oppose No. 4 for the reasons outlined by the previous speakers. We were also supposed to have a debate on the G8 summit, which will not now take place. That would have given us the opportunity to examine the Government's performance on this issue and particularly its failure to meet its own solemn commitments on aid. It told us it would reach the target of 0.7% of GDP. Under present circumstances we will not reach that until 2028. We want to debate this issue, particularly in the run up to the G8 summit. Many important issues are to be discussed, including climate change. It seems that once again this House will not debate these important issues.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh

I also object to No. 4 on the grounds that there is no Order of Business tomorrow and there are no questions to a Minister. If we are to sit, we should do so for a full day and have proper business of the House. Similar to Deputy Gormley, for a number of months I requested, and we were promised a discussion on UN reform prior to the September meeting of the UN on reform, to make proposals to be brought forward by the Government at that meeting. That should have been on the Order Paper for tomorrow as a stand alone item for proper debate and not just statements. So far we have not seen the Government's proposals on the vital issue of UN reform. If the Government is not willing to deal with it in the proper fashion then the Dáil should be recalled over the summer months so that we have some debate prior to a Government representative attending the UN reform sessions.

Mr. N. Dempsey

It is most important that we have the air navigation Bill in place before the summer recess. The circumstances as outlined by Deputy Kenny are largely correct but the insurance companies are withdrawing cover for dirty bombs. All states throughout Europe, and not only Ireland, must indemnify to ensure that should such an occurrence take place people would have some recourse.

It is a long established precedent that goes back to even before the time I was a whip that the Order of Business for Friday sittings is taken the day before.

Question, "That the proposal for sitting, and the business of the Dáil tomorrow, be agreed", put and declared carried.

Mr. Kenny

We will be here for a few more hours. I wish to raise two matters with the Minister on the Order of Business. The British and Irish Lions play the All Blacks on Saturday, which is of interest to Ireland. Under existing legislation, the Minister is entitled to direct that this be given free to air coverage on national television. The match is only available on Sky Sports. People cannot be in public houses or golf clubs at six o'clock in the morning. For that reason and because of the interest with four Irishmen playing on the team, I expect the Minister to intervene and make it available on national television.

The issue arose today that the Revenue Commissioners are to impose full stamp duty on first-time house buyers who receive payments from their families to assist in putting down a deposit. This is against the spirit of the budget and the Finance Bill introduced last year.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy must ask a question appropriate to the Order of Business.

Mr. Kenny

It is particularly mean-minded and will cause great difficulty for a number of first-time buyers.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy has gone outside the Order of Business.

Mr. Kenny

It deals with the Finance Act.

An Ceann Comhairle

I appreciate that but it should be a question appropriate to the Order of Business.

Mr. Durkan

The Minister wishes to answer the question.

Mr. Kenny

I know the Ceann Comhairle appreciates it because he allowed me to raise it.

Mr. J. Higgins

I wish to speak on that same matter.

An Ceann Comhairle

I will not hear the Deputy on that matter because we must move on to the business of the House. It is almost 12 noon.

Mr. J. Higgins

I have not opened my mouth this morning.

An Ceann Comhairle

I appreciate that and I will call the Deputy in good time.

Mr. J. Higgins

I was not allowed by Standing Orders to open my mouth on the previous business.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Minister should be allowed to speak without interruption.

Mr. J. Higgins

Will first-time buyers be saddled with further property tax?

Mr. N. Dempsey

The legislation on the designation of specific sports for free to air coverage is already passed. The Lions tour was not included at that time. It is not within the remit or powers of the Minister to designate it two days before the event.

Mr. J. O’Keeffe

It was rushed through at the time.

Ms O. Mitchell

The Government can put through legislation in an hour and a half.

Mr. N. Dempsey

The legislation allows for a review of the list of events to be covered and we will have that discussion later.

Mr. Kenny

If the Minister wants it he will get it.

Mr. J. O’Keeffe

Deputy McDowell will be arresting people in public houses at six o'clock in the morning.

Mr. N. Dempsey

The Revenue Commissioners are currently examining the issue of relief in view of the issues raised. No decision has been finalised. I understand it is not intended to limit the relief to genuine first-time buyers so much as to try to preclude the possibility of others seeking to make use of the benefit in an unacceptable way. The Revenue Commissioners have indicated that they are examining that issue to ensure that first-time buyers will not be penalised.

Mr. Rabbitte

I agree with the Minister that if abuse of the relief occurs it would be entirely appropriate for the Revenue Commissioners to take this action. If it results in the savaging and further penalising of first-time buyers it would be entirely inappropriate at a time when all one has to do is read the newspapers to find other areas the Revenue Commissioners might focus on more appropriately.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should speak on a matter more appropriate to the Order of Business.

Mr. Rabbitte

On 23 May 2001 the then Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy O'Donoghue told the house "The investigation by Assistant Commissioner Carty was completed and presented to me and, in turn, to the DPP."

An Ceann Comhairle

That does not arise on the Order of Business.

Mr. Rabbitte

On Friday last the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy McDowell——

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Rabbitte that does not arise on the Order of Business.

Mr. Rabbitte

Deputy McDowell told the house the Carty Report——

An Ceann Comhairle

I ask Deputy Rabbitte to resume his seat.

Mr. Rabbitte

I wish to ask a question to the Ceann Comhairle on this.

An Ceann Comhairle

If the Deputy has a question for the Chair he should call to the office of the Chair and we will be glad to deal with his question. Deputy Rabbitte is out of order on the Order of Business and I ask him to resume his seat.

Mr. Rabbitte

I ask the Ceann Comhairle if he will require one or other Minister to come into the House to apologise for misleading it.

An Ceann Comhairle

It is not a matter for the Chair and the Deputy knows that.

Mr. Howlin

One of them is not telling the truth.

Mr. Rabbitte

Either Deputy McDowell or Deputy O'Donoghue was lying to the House.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy, I ask you to resume your seat. The Deputy knows he is out of order.

Mr. Rabbitte

A Cheann Comhairle——

An Ceann Comhairle

You are out of order, Deputy. You will have to find another way of raising the matter.

Mr. Rabbitte

I am asking you, Sir, as the guarantor of our rights in this House, whether you will require one of these Ministers to come in here and apologise to this House.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy, as you well know, you can put down a substantive motion in this House on the matter and it will be resolved. I call Deputy Gormley.

Mr. Rabbitte

A Cheann Comhairle, do we have any rights in terms of correcting the record of this House?

An Ceann Comhairle

Yes, Deputy, you have the right to put down a motion on the matter.

Mr. Rabbitte

We have it in black and white.

An Ceann Comhairle

I call Deputy Gormley.

Mr. Rabbitte

One Minister said one thing and the other Minister said something else. You are not vindicating our rights, a Cheann Comhairle.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Rabbitte, I ask you to resume your seat. If you do not resume your seat the Chair will have to take appropriate action.

Mr. Howlin

A Cheann Comhairle, may I ask you a question?

An Ceann Comhairle

No, Deputy. If you have a question for me you can call to the office of the Chair and I will be glad to deal with it. I have called Deputy Gormley.

Mr. Howlin

On a point of order, a Cheann Comhairle, I do not want to do the business of Parliament in private. I want to do it in public. I want to do it now.

An Ceann Comhairle

Yes, Deputy, as long as it is in order. We are on the Order of Business now and if the Deputy wants me to read out Standing Order 26 to him, I will do so.

Mr. Howlin

May I ask you a question, Sir? Have either of the Ministers asked your permission to make a personal statement of clarification today?

An Ceann Comhairle

That does not arise on the Order of Business.

Mr. Stagg

It does arise.

Mr. Howlin

Have you no responsibility to ensure the truth is told in the House?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair does not have responsibility in this matter. It is a matter for the Ministers.

Mr. Howlin

You have no responsibility when there is a patent contradiction on the record of the House.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy knows how to deal with it, by way of a substantive motion. I call Deputy Gormley.

Mr. Gilmore

One of them is lying.

Mr. Howlin

Somebody misled the House.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Howlin, I advise you not to persist in the line you are taking because the Chair will have to take appropriate action.

Mr. Rabbitte

This is an outrage.

Mr. Durkan

On a point of order, a Cheann Comhairle——

An Ceann Comhairle

I will call you, Deputy, when I have heard Deputy Gormley. He has been standing for a long time.

Mr. Gormley

I hope that matter is clarified. On promised legislation, we have been told by sections of the media that privacy legislation is in the pipeline. Will that form part of the defamation Bill or will it be separate legislation?

Mr. N. Dempsey

There is no legislation promised. As part of the programme for Government there is a commitment to examine the position regarding privacy laws.

Mr. Durkan

On a point of order, could you advise the House, a Cheann Comhairle, of the procedure to be followed under Standing Orders in the event that it is perceived that two Ministers have made contradictory statements——

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy, I have already pointed out to Deputy Rabbitte the procedure.

Mr. Durkan

What is the procedure in the House, a Cheann Comhairle?

An Ceann Comhairle

You are being disorderly, Deputy.

Mr. Durkan

No, I am not. What is the established procedure in the House?

Mr. Rabbitte

A Cheann Comhairle, how can the procedure be that we must go privately to your office on a matter as grave as this?

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy——

Mr. Rabbitte

Two officeholders came in here and gave conflicting statements to the House on a matter of grave public interest.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Rabbitte, the Chair has pointed out the procedure to be followed. You can put down a substantive motion.

Mr. Howlin

Do we just go on as normal?

Mr. Rabbitte

Neither has sought to correct the record.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Rabbitte——

Mr. Rabbitte

We have rights here too. You are the Ceann Comhairle. What is the procedure? What is the answer to Deputy Durkan's question?

An Ceann Comhairle

The answer is the same as the one I gave to you — put down a motion.

Mr. Rabbitte

Do we go privately to your office——

An Ceann Comhairle

I call Deputy Gilmore.

Mr. Rabbitte

——when two Ministers come into this House and give directly contrary views?

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Rabbitte, please, enough is enough.

Mr. Howlin

Enough is not enough.

An Ceann Comhairle

I call Deputy Gilmore.

Mr. Gilmore

A Cheann Comhairle, may I ask you as a matter of clarification and record which of the two statements on the record of the House is correct?

An Ceann Comhairle

That is not a point of order, Deputy. If the Deputy wants to disrupt the House, the Chair will have to take appropriate action.

Mr. Gilmore

No, I am asking you——

An Ceann Comhairle

We are moving to the next business, No. 14a, motion re referral to joint committee of proposed approval by Dáil Éireann for an EU framework to strengthen the criminal law framework for the enforcement of the law against ship-source pollution.

Mr. Gilmore

On a point of order——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy cannot make a point of order when I am putting a question.

Mr. Stagg

The Deputy wants to raise a point of order.

An Ceann Comhairle

I call the Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach, Deputy Kitt, to move the motion.

Mr. Gilmore

This is bullying.