Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 3 Mar 2009

Vol. 676 No. 4

Leaders’ Questions.

Deputy Enda Kenny

I saw the Taoiseach had a bit of a gathering at the weekend and I noted some of the comments from there. I am not sure that the Minister for Transport suggesting everybody in the banks is akin to Oliver Cromwell is the right way to go. It begs the question as to where Queen Elizabeth is in all of this. Cromwell was only acting on instructions.

In respect to the Taoiseach's comments about his job, his job is not just to calm the nerves of his own party or party members, it is to reassure the Irish people about their future economic prospects and the landscape that lies ahead. With respect, to date, the Government has not shown any competence to do that. Every time a financial target is set by the Government, it has been way off target. Examples of this are that prior to October, the budget deficit was projected to be €5.8 billion but in the budget it was €10 billion and in January it was €18 billion, even after the pension levy. In reality, the figures have been very much higher than the Government projections.

The Exchequer returns for the end of February will be published in a few minutes' time and I am sure the Taoiseach has been briefed on them. I would like him to tell the House, as it should be told, what those figures are and whether they are consistent with the projections of the Government at the time of the budget and in January.

Last week I called for the need to face the reality of the difficulties facing the public finances and stated there is a need for a new budget. To that end, the Fine Gael party put down a Private Members' motion, to which the Government has appended its amendment. Part of that Government amendment states, "notes the Government decision today to announce further necessary measures by the end of this month to ensure the stabilisation and sustainability of the public finances". What are these measures? What decisions were taken by the Cabinet today? How will this decision or these decisions go towards allaying people's lack of confidence and lack of trust in Government in that there are no figures with regard to reducing borrowing for 2009, 2010 and 2011? These are important questions to which I hope that Taoiseach can give a comprehensive answer.

The Taoiseach

What I had to say over the weekend was addressed to the Irish people — everybody. I did not get involved in any party-political jousting whatever because of the seriousness of the situation we face. I therefore do not accept the Deputy's critique.

The substance of the Deputy's question relates to the Exchequer returns for the end of February, and they are disappointing. It is clear that tax revenues in 2009 are under pressure. We are in a very serious situation, as we have been outlining, and a serious economic downturn. As was clear to me from my attendance at an EU meeting on Sunday in Brussels, the European Central Bank and the Commission will also be revising downwards their forecasts for the European economy, as this global recession continues to bite hard everywhere.

The Deputy has referred to the counter motion tabled by the Government in which we indicate that by the end of the month we will take whatever steps are necessary to ensure the framework we have set for ourselves, that is, a 9.5% general Government deficit for 2009, will be adhered to. It is important for the credibility of the country that we do so. Before the end of the month we will come forward with whatever measures are necessary, either in terms of expenditure savings or tax raising measures. The end of February returns reveal a figure of €5.759 billion, as opposed to €7.562 billion for the same month last year. We are committed to restoring the public finances to a sustainable position and action will be taken to ensure the deficit will not worsen from the forecasted figure of 9.5%. We have indicated what the first steps taken were. Further measures must be taken by the Government during the course of the year. I hope to set out a more medium term position by the Government in order that the people will be able to see the scale of the challenge and what must be done to deal with it.

Deputy Enda Kenny

I would have expected the Taoiseach to provide the figures for the Exchequer returns to be published in a few minutes' time and indicate whether they were consistent with the projected €18 billion deficit announced in January. Also, I would have expected him to tell us what decisions were taken by the Government today as referred to in the Private Members' motion.

The problem throughout the country is that no one can plan for the future. No business can plan for investment because it does not have a plan or strategy from the Government. People do not know what the Government's intentions are in respect of borrowing reductions in 2009, 2010 and 2011. That is the reason it is necessary to face the reality that the public finances are under extreme pressure. A fair and comprehensive budget is needed covering all sectors to allow the people to buy into it. If they knew the scale of the problem and that their contribution was going some way towards dealing with it, they would be prepared to get back to a point where they would have some confidence where there is none. It is the duty of the Taoiseach to set out the economic landscape for the next three to five years. That landscape is bleak. Therefore, people do not confidence to invest or spend. That is what is causing the crisis of confidence in their personal and business lives. It is the responsibility of the Taoiseach to deal with this. This is the forum of the people. Will he provide the figures for the Exchequer returns which are due to be published in a few minutes' time? What do the figures mean? Is the figure €18 billion or greater? What decisions did the Government take this morning?

In the amendment to the Fine Gael Private Members' motion the Taoiseach "notes the Government decision today to announce further measures by the end of this month to ensure the stabilisation and sustainability of the public finances". Is that simply a decision to announce action at the end of the month, or is it a decision that will at least make some effort to stabilise and sustain the public finances? That is the crisis of confidence. There is no point screaming blue murder about every sector without setting out the Government agenda, plan and strategy for 2009, 2010 and 2011. If the people could see the economic landscape in so far as the Government can predict it properly and make decisions about it, they could at least plan their lives and businesses in such a way that investment, confidence, fairness and opportunity could be restored. In respect of the decision taken by the Government today, will the Taoiseach indicate if it will take the form of a series of announcements to be made at the end of the month? Will he inform the House of the decisions made this morning to enable us to begin debating them and in order that the people will understand that at last, following Fine Gael's call, there is a strategy or plan in place for 2009, 2010 and 2011?

The Taoiseach

I have given the returns figure — it is €5.759 billion at the end of February 2009 as opposed to €7.562 billion at the end of February 2008.

There is a strategy in place which we have outlined to the European Commission, as required once we exceed the Stability and Growth Pact 3% deficit limit. We have indicated that between now and 2013 it is our intention, through a combination of tax increases and expenditure savings, to reach a situation where €16.5 billion will be taken out of the equation. The gap in the original end of year Exchequer returns is €55 billion in expenditure and €37 billion in taxation. This is the third month of the year and tax revenues are already under pressure. It seems there could be a shortfall in revenues of between €2.5 billion and €3 billion based on the figures if the profile were to continue for the remainder of the year.

The decision taken by the Government in respect of the figures which have emerged today indicates clearly that we must stick within the fiscal strategy we have set for ourselves. Further measures must be taken to keep within the 9.5% deficit figure we have set ourselves for 2009. We have indicated in the documents to the European Commission the further savings that must be made in future years. I have indicated to the House that we should try to set a three year parameter to manage the situation in so far as it is possible to predict it, as the Deputy said, in a downturn which continues and which is deteriorating. The global recession is having an impact everywhere, including the European and USA economies, among others. We have made the decision that we will make whatever adjustments are necessary to meet the emerging deficit in this year's figures by the end of the month. We received the figures today and must consider them and produce a plan to deal with them. That is what the Government intends to do. We are indicating that we will make decisions at the end of the month.

Deputy Enda Kenny

The position is that we will know by the end of the month.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore

Do I understand correctly from what the Taoiseach stated that the revenues for this year will be €34 billion or €35 billion, as opposed to the €37 billion, of which he previously spoke? He says the Government has taken decisions and that all of this will be addressed by the end of the month. By what means does the Government intend to address the issue by the end of the month? Is it the Taoiseach's intention to have the Minister for Finance bring a new Budget Statement before the House before the end of the month? Will he clarify what he means by the end of the month?

Although, understandably, we have concentrated on the macro-economic big picture and spent a good deal of time addressing it for several weeks, we sometimes forget the human side of what is occurring. There is one area, in particular, I wish the Taoiseach to address, namely, the decision announced by the Department of Education and Science on 11 February to the effect that it would be withdrawing funding from special needs classes which did not meet a certain pupil-teacher ratio. There are 118 classes and 528 pupils affected by this decision. The amount involved is €7 million. Given the scale of the figures we are discussing, it is relatively small and eminently fixable. The Minister for Education and Science stated this is being done, not for financial reasons, but for educational reasons. In a letter to the newspapers recently he stated the children concerned would be better off in mainstream rather than special classes. There is an article in today's edition of The Irish Times which lists the case studies of several of the children concerned and the comments made by their parents.

Róisín Woods points out that her seven-year old daughter, Jessica, has just now managed to pronounce her own name and her mother wonders what it would be like if she were in mainstream education, coping in a class where she would be teased about the fact she could not pronounce her name. Cathy Shevlin says that at ten years of age her son, Niall, with the mentality of a four-year old, is expected to go into fourth class in a different school and to sit with 30-plus pupils. The newspapers have reported on the case of Christine Devine and her six-year old son, Aaron. Christine Devine says that the teacher would have to take her son to the toilet every half hour. Damien Barry says that mainstream school was never really an option for his daughter, Alana, as she has too many problems. The McBride family have said their daughter, Chloe, is much happier now and doing really well.

These are parents who are extremely worried about their children. They want their children to stay in the special needs classes in which they have been accommodated to date and where they are doing well and making progress. I am sure that, given all the issues that need to be addressed, the €7 million required to deal with this matter can be found by savings of one kind or another. It would not take a great deal of ingenuity nor would it be difficult to put that together. I appreciate that solving the overall problem of the country's finances is a huge task but there are things that can be fixed. There are little things like this that do not have to happen, little things that make a lot of difference to parents and their children as in this case.

I ask the Taoiseach whether this decision can be reversed. The House will be discussing the Exchequer returns and what has to be done about them but there has to be a sense communicated to people that the little things can be fixed. This can be fixed and it does not have to go ahead. These children can and should remain in the special needs classes in which they are doing well. This cut can be reversed and I ask the Taoiseach to give hope to those parents and to their children that the compassionate view will be taken and that the effort will be made to find the savings. We could find €7 billion for investment in the banks and we are talking here about a figure of €7 million, one thousandth of that cost. I am sure this can be done.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Gilmore will be aware that he may raise only one issue on Leaders' Questions. I assume, therefore, he is asking for a reply on the question about special needs. He cannot have two questions.

The Taoiseach

The Government and Minister for Finance made it clear at the publication of the end of February returns that the Government would make decisions at its meeting at the end of March and whatever legislative arrangements need to be made beyond that date can then take place. The political decisions will be taken after full consideration by Government in the next few weeks to deal with the current financial situation as it emerges.

On the question about children who have been in special classes, there is an educational view to be considered. I understand the concerns of parents. In many cases these special classes had fewer children per teacher, less than the ratio of 11 to one per teacher. The idea is to group classes at local level to achieve the ratio of 11 to one. I wish to clarify that this proposal does not affect severely handicapped children as it relates only to those with mild to moderate learning difficulties. There is a strong educational view that interaction in the mainstream classroom is helpful, in addition to any special or particular individual support they will receive. Support teachers and staff are in the schools to assist in mainstream classrooms and this was not a feature ten or 15 years ago.

I am aware this issue has arisen. The Minister has indicated the thinking behind the proposal. The purpose is to ensure those children will obtain the care and attention in the mainstream classroom they received in the special classes.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore

Do I understand from the Taoiseach's reply that the Government and the Minister for Education and Science will not change position? I have read what the Minister has written about it, his response and his view that there is an educational case for moving the children concerned into mainstream classes. With the greatest of respect, their parents disagree. The children are in special needs classes at present and that is where their parents want them to remain. What is the Taoiseach saying to the parents of those children? Is he saying the Government is sticking by the decision that those children will be moved out of the special needs classes and into mainstream classes? Will he respond to the case I am making that the Government should reconsider this decision and those children should be left in the special needs classes and whatever accommodations and arrangements are required should be made? The parents of these children are looking for an answer; they are not looking for the educational theory which may or may not be right. Incidentally, the educational argument is a cover, in my view, for what is a financial issue. Will the children stay in the special needs classes or will they be taken out of them?

The Taoiseach

The answer is as I have said. It is proposed that children at local level can be grouped to maintain a special class and raise the ratio to 11 pupils to one teacher, which is regarded as the best configuration. This can be worked on. We will seek to achieve this arrangement in a way which is consistent with the educational principles——

Deputy Eamon Gilmore

They will have to move schools.

The Taoiseach

It is a question of providing a better educational environment by having interaction between children and having a larger number in the classroom instead of isolating two or three. This is regarded as a better solution than the arrangement that was developed on an ad hoc basis in the past. This is the thinking behind the proposal.

This is not about finances but rather about trying to ensure best practice. I understand and respect what parents have to say. In our constituencies we all meet people whose children are in a particular location or set of circumstances and there is always an understandable reluctance to change the arrangements. However, there are educational issues to be considered and there is a need for departmental personnel and teaching staff to work closely with parents to try to reduce to the greatest extent possible any anxieties they may have about new arrangements, and to ensure the outcome for the children in the educational setting is at least as good as, or hopefully better, than the current arrangements.