Vol. 703 No. 2
60 Deputy Jimmy Deenihan asked the Minister for Defence if, in view of the fact that a new authorised minimum strength of 10,000 personnel has been agreed for the Defence Forces, the organisation has sanction for continuous recruitment as required to ensure that numbers are maintained at that level; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [9539/10]
Within the available resources, the Government is committed to maintaining the strength of the Defence Forces, of all ranks, at a level of 10,000, for which Government approval has been secured in the context of budget 2010. This reflects the reductions in personnel recommended in the report of the special group on public service numbers and expenditure programmes.
I am advised by the military authorities that the strength of the Permanent Defence Force as at 31 January 2010 was 9,906, comprising 8,070 Army, 805 Air Corps and 1,031 Naval Service personnel.
As the numbers in the Permanent Defence Force have dropped below 10,000, recruitment will be carried out in 2010 in order to bring the numbers back to this level. Details of the recruitment campaign for 2010 in regard to the numbers of general service recruits and the commencement of any such recruitment campaigns are not yet available. Planning for this process is under way.
I intend, with the support of the chief of staff and within the resources available, to retain the capacity of the organisation to operate effectively across all roles while contributing to the necessary public service economies.
I am advised that at this time the Defence Forces retain the capacity to undertake the tasks laid down by the Government at home and overseas.
I welcome the Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach, Deputy Pat Carey. I had hoped he would be here as Minister for Defence. I am disappointed the Taoiseach, who has now assumed responsibility for the Ministry for Defence, is not present to take questions. He is now acting Minister for Defence and should be here to answer some very important questions. I hope sincerely the Minister of State, Deputy Pat Carey, will be here as Minister for Defence at our next Question Time.
I am glad the Minister of State has confirmed the new authorised strength of the Defence Forces is 10,000. It is very important that the strength be maintained at this level. Considering that it has been confirmed by the Government and Department of Finance, should it not be open to the Defence Forces to commence recruitment immediately to maintain a strength of 10,000? Surely no moratorium should apply to recruitment to and promotion within the Defence Forces.
I thank Deputy Deenihan for his good wishes. I have been asked to respond to these questions and I will do so to the best of my ability.
The Government is committed to maintaining the strength of the Defence Forces at the level outlined. As Deputy Deenihan will know, a review of Defence Forces' structures is under way and it will inform the timing of the recruitment campaign. The Government is committed to the recruitment campaign for 2010. The question of whether there will be a cadet competition and an apprenticeship competition has not yet been decided but planning for the process is under way. I assure the Deputy everything will be done to ensure this is done as quickly as possible within the constraints every other part of the public service operates under.
I remind the Minister of State that, during the last Question Time, the former Minister for Defence made a commitment to us that he would be recruiting between 530 and 540 personnel and that the process would commence immediately. Will he confirm that this number will be recruited?
The Government has given approval in the context of budget 2010 to maintain the strength of the Defence Forces at all ranks at 10,000. As I stated, the recruitment campaign will be initiated in line with what the former Minister stated.
Does the Minister agree that the Defence Forces should have automatic authorisation to recruit immediately in view of the fact that the strength has been agreed?
Yes, but the need to keep the expenditure of the Defence Forces in line with public service commitments will have to be adhered to. I assure the Deputy that the commitments that have already been made by the Government, in consultation with the representative bodies, will be adhered to. The focus will be on the operational capability of the Defence Forces in whatever decisions are taken.
The Deputy will be aware of some of the exemptions from the moratorium on recruitment that have been secured by the former Minister. The Minister for Finance's approval was received for the recruitment of 42 Army and Naval Service cadets in 2009. Sanction was also received to fill the post of deputy chief of staff (operations), two posts at brigadier general level, and the post of director of military prosecutions by way of promotion. The promotion of ten NCOs, whose promotion had commenced prior to the moratorium, has proceeded and sanction for 100 acting-up posts to service operational requirements, both at home and overseas——
The former Minister for Defence announced that in the Irish Independent before the last Question Time.
61 Deputy Brian O’Shea asked the Minister for Defence the amount paid by the banks for cash escort services provided by the Defence Forces during 2009; if he is satisfied that this covers the full cost of the service provided; if there are plans to seek an increased contribution from the banks; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [9378/10]
A formal five-year agreement made between the Irish Banking Federation, its member banks and the Department of Defence and signed on 11 May 2005 provides that the banks pay the total actual costs incurred by the Defence Forces in the provision of cash escorts.
The costs charged to the banks comprise the following: the total salary costs including allowances, pension contributions and PRSI of the military personnel assigned to carry out cash escort duties; subsistence payments to military personnel directly engaged in the duties; the operation and maintenance costs for vehicles used for the purposes of cash escorts, on a per-mile basis, calculated in accordance with Civil Service standard methodology for the calculation of mileage rates for specific vehicle types; and the operation and maintenance costs for aircraft deployed in support of cash escort operations.
Costs in respect of each 12-month period to the end of December are paid the following year on or before 1 June. This is to allow for the compilation of returns from the brigades and allocation of costs following the year's end.
Prior to this initiative, it had been the case that an annual contribution of €2.86 million was paid by the banks to the Department in respect of the provision of cash escorts. The contribution from the banks was designed to cover in part the total costs to the State of providing cash escorts. The amounts received from the banks in respect of the years 2005 to 2008 are as follows: 2005 — €6.03 million; 2006 — €6.47 million; 2007 — €7.34 million; and 2008 — €7.45 million. The total costs due for 2009 are being calculated in the Department at present.
Negotiations on a new agreement with the banks to replace the current agreement will take place with the IBF and the banks later this year. In the policy changes outlined in the budget for 2010, it was indicated that appropriations-in-aid will be increased, including through charging An Post, the Central Bank and other organisations for services on the same basis as the banks. The Central Bank has agreed to pay for costs incurred by the Defence Forces in providing security services. Similar to the agreement with the banks, the amount due in respect of 2009 will be paid on or before 1 June 2010. Initial contact has been made with the other organisations, including An Post, which receive similar services from the Defence Forces with a view to reaching agreement on costs relevant to the respective bodies.
I, too, welcome the Minister of State. I hope that if somebody is being appointed to the Cabinet, he will be chosen. Indeed, if there is a wider Cabinet reshuffle, I hope he will find his deserved place.
With regard to the cash escorts provided by the Army, can the Minister tell us the value of the cash carried? I note the IBF members are paying 78% of the total costs to be paid by the banks. Are all the banks included? Is other money being conveyed around the country for which the State is not asked to provide cash escorts?
I thank Deputy O'Shea for his remarks. I do not have the information he seeks with me but I will try to find it. I have details of how many escorts are provided and I can provide the Deputy with a breakdown of costs but I do not have details about the amount of cash being transported by the escorts or a breakdown by banks.
Is there an estimate of the additional moneys that will accrue to the State on foot of the new five year agreement that is due to commence and under which other agencies such as An Post and the Central Bank will also be paying?
Agreement has only recently been reached with the Central Bank. Initial contact was made with the three organisations I mentioned and the Central Bank was the first to respond. Following a meeting with departmental officials, agreement was reached on the calculation of the amount due and the methodology of payment. Departmental officials are in the process of agreeing dates on which to meet to discuss the payment of the cost with representatives of the other organisations. As I mentioned, a preliminary meeting has taken place with representatives of An Post and further meetings are planned. That is as much detail as I am in a position to supply at present.
62 Deputy Jimmy Deenihan asked the Minister for Defence the number of complaints and concerns about governance and management issues at the Irish Red Cross brought to his attention since 2007; if his assistance was sought to deal with these issues; the actions he took to deal with these complaints; if complaints focused on the actions or inactions of any of his nominees to the central council; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [9540/10]
63 Deputy Brian O’Shea asked the Minister for Defence the reason for the continuing delay in the appointment of a new chairperson to the Irish Red Cross; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [9379/10]
I propose to take Questions Nos. 62 and 63 together.
The Irish Red Cross Society is an autonomous body, established by the Irish Red Cross Society Order 1939 pursuant to the Red Cross Act 1938. The society is an independent charitable organisation with full powers to manage and administer its affairs through its governing body, the central council. Membership of the central council is by way of appointment by the Government or by election in accordance with the rules of the society.
The issue of governance has been the subject of consideration by a temporary working group in the society since February 2008. The chairman of the temporary working group presented the findings to the central council of the Irish Red Cross Society at a meeting held at the end of November 2009. The report was received in the Department of Defence at the end of January 2010. Officials in the Department of Defence met recently with officials in the Irish Red Cross Society to discuss the contents of the report and the implications of the recommendations arising from the report.
One of the proposals emanating from the report relates to the appointment to the position of chairperson of the society. In accordance with Article 9 of the Irish Red Cross Society Order 1939, the chairman of the Irish Red Cross Society shall be a member of the central council and shall be nominated by the president of the society. The Red Cross Act 1944 provides that the President of Ireland shall by virtue of her office be president of the society. The Government has not yet put forward a name to the President to replace Mr. David Andrews who retired from the position of chairperson on 31 December 2009. In the interim, the vice chairman of the society acts as chairman.
The contents of the governance report and the likely and consequential impact on both primary and secondary legislation of the findings of the report will be the subject of interdepartmental and inter-agency discussion. These discussions will involve the Departments of the Taoiseach, Foreign Affairs and Defence, the Irish Red Cross Society and the International Federation of Red Cross and Red Crescent Societies. Thereafter, the Minister for Defence will bring before Government any statutory changes deemed necessary.
In June 2007, a letter from staff members to the chairman about internal society matters was circulated to members of the central council, one of whom is an official from my Department. The Minister also received an anonymous letter in October 2008 from a person purporting to be a member of the central council of the Irish Red Cross Society, who was concerned about governance and procedures within the society. In March 2009, the Minister for Defence received correspondence from a member of the central council who informed the Minister of her decision to resign from the council of the society. In the letter, the council member expressed concerns about governance, accountability and transparency issues within the society. The issues raised in the aforementioned correspondence are wide ranging and are primarily matters which should be resolved internally by the society.
In nominating persons to the central council, the Government considers that it is highly desirable that the society should have on its governing body professional people with a wide variety of knowledge and expertise, gained through work experience in both the public and private sector and volunteer experience with the society. The Minister for Defence is anxious to ensure that all his dealings with the society are conducted in accordance with the society's basic principle of independence from Government.
The problems of the Irish Red Cross Society are systemic and appear to be escalating. It is not today or yesterday that these problems were made public. In 1999, a group of Irish Red Cross Society employees went public on RTE about them. That is a long time ago. In the period since then, five secretaries general have retired or resigned. In an international rating of Red Cross Societies across the world, the Irish Red Cross Society was given a mark of four, with one being the best and five the worst. Does the Minister not consider it a cause for concern that in the past six months three Government appointees and one Government employee have resigned from the Irish Red Cross Society? They are distinguished people: Mr. David Andrews, Judge Rory McCabe, barrister Ms Jenny Bulbulia and a highly respected civil servant whom all Members have encountered in the course of his work, Mr. John Roycroft. This is surely worthy of investigation. I call on the Taoiseach, who is now the acting Minister for Defence, to initiate such an investigation immediately. It could be conducted by a high ranking official of his Department or of the Department of Defence, but it must be done.
Before I was asked to take these questions I was already aware of some of the issues Deputy Deenihan has mentioned. The issue of Government participation in the running of the society was last raised in 1996 by the president of the International Committee of the Red Cross. It was subsequently raised with the society directly by the International Committee of the Red Cross. The matter was referred back to the Irish Red Cross Society to bring forward any proposals it considered necessary for consideration. No such proposals were received from the Irish Red Cross Society on foot of that referral. Any proposals for the reorganisation of the governance and management arrangements of the Irish Red Cross Society are a matter for the society in the first instance. The issue of the appointment of a secretary general to the society has been raised. I understand that the former secretary general, who was on secondment from the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, has returned to that Department. It is now a matter for the society to decide how that position is to be filled. There are issues and I will raise them with the Taoiseach.
I have raised this issue on many occasions. I am continuing to receive a considerable number of representations. The Irish Red Cross is an important organisation and is part of our national life. It has contributed to projects overseas and at home. I understand quite a number of young people are being recruited into it. The continuing bad publicity is not helping matters. I understand the review group report on the governance of the organisation stated the society's general council would be replaced by an elected general assembly and that a chairperson would be elected by the general assembly. I do not know if a decision has been taken on that matter, in the context of the legislation which must come before the House. My concern is that there is a need for a chairperson who can do a job and grasp the issues which have to be addressed in the society. No matter how good the person is, unless the governance framework is in place this cannot happen. It seems to me that what the Minister of State outlined, namely, the number of consultations which are taking place, that this process will go on forever. That is not good enough. This matter needs to be urgently addressed.
It is important that the relationship between the Government and the society is clearly stated. The order establishing the society sets out its primary objects and powers which include acting, as Deputy O'Shea said, as a voluntary aid society in times of war and peace. The 1938 Act permits payment to the society by way of grants. The society has certain rights under the Geneva Convention and the Members of the House understand what they are. The Minister for Defence has no responsibility for the day-to-day running of the organisation. In terms of addressing staffing issues, there is no role for the Minister. It is one which much be addressed in the normal employer-employee relationship between the Irish Red Cross and its staff. However, as we are all aware, many organisations are currently faced with financial difficulties and the society is no different. As an employer it must consider all options in order to maintain its financial viability. To that end, I have no doubt it will consider all remedial steps it considers necessary, in terms of minimising staffing costs. On the appointment of a chairman, as I said in my initial reply while no nomination has yet been brought forward by the Minister for Defence to the Government, it can be anticipated that it is a matter which will receive the urgent attention of the new Minister.
I wish the previous Minister the best of luck in his future in Limerick. I am not taking issue with the Minister of State; he has read replies which are prepared for him. However, I take issue with the previous Minister when he told us he could not get involved. He was incorrect in his assertion that he or the Government could not get involved. That is why I went to the trouble of looking up the Red Cross Act 1938, which clearly states the Government can get involved. Section 1(2) states:
The Government may by the establishment order make provision in relation to all or any of the following matters, that is to say:—
(a) the powers of the Society;
(b) the organization of the Society;
(c) the management and administration of the affairs of the Society by a governing body
The Minister or the Government has the right, under legislation, to get involved. The Geneva Convention has been used as a excuse not to get involved, but it does not prevent the Government or Minister from getting involved.
I am sure the Minister of State will agree that a large amount of Government funding is involved, some €960,000. The main support of the Irish Red Cross is the Government. Surely, that behoves the Minister or Government to ensure the money concerned is spent properly and there is proper governance in the Irish Red Cross in order to ensure the money is spent properly. I ask the Minister of State to clarify the provisions in the Act. He raised the issue.
The Deputy has made his point.
There may be a note——
Please, let the Minister of State reply.
——to clarify why we cannot intercede, based on the provisions in the Act.
The 1939 order, which is pursuant to the Red Cross Act 1938, sets out the basis on which the society shall be governed. It provides that there shall be a central council which elects the powers of the society, organises the society and controls and manages the affairs of the society. Membership of the central council is by way of an appointment by the Government or election in accordance with the rules of the society. The central council, in turn, elects, on an annual basis, an executive committee which normally meets ten times a year. It is quite clear, as I read it——
I have the Act here.
——that the role of the Minister is very much circumscribed by that. It is true that a figure of €951,000 was paid in 2009 to the society. The Minister is of the view that the method of governance of the society and its relationship with the Government is one which is circumscribed by the founding legislation.
I ask the Minister of State to convey our concerns to the Taoiseach, who is the acting Minister for Defence. It is reported a document was prepared by the Department which showed the accounts for the year ending 30 September had a domestic deficit of €650,000. The problem we have is the organisation is in drift. There are those who say the recommendations in the internal review group report do not go far enough. This must be caught by the scruff of the neck. The longer this matter drifts, the more damage is done to a very important national organisation.
The Government, which is the acting Minister, is acutely conscious of the need for good governance in all organisations, including the Irish Red Cross. I am certain measures will be taken to ensure whatever levels of compliance are required will be adhered to.
64 Deputy Jimmy Deenihan asked the Minister for Defence if discussions have taken place with a view to any downsizing of the Defence Forces, the merging of brigades and other units of the Defence Forces; the nature of decisions taken; the nature of proposals made as to any restructuring; the predicted cost savings that would result from any mergers or downsizing; the implications for facilities needed by the Defence Forces; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [9286/10]
The Defence Forces have improved in every respect since 2000 through the implementation of the White Paper. Arising from the White Paper on Defence, a modern well-equipped Defence Forces have been created capable of meeting the needs of Government and the public and ensuring value for money. The White Paper on Defence set out a figure of 10,500 personnel for the Permanent Defence Force as the strength sufficient to deliver on the roles laid down by Government for domestic operations and to provide a sufficient pool for rotation for overseas missions as well as maintaining sufficient depth across the required range of skills.
Notwithstanding the success of the White Paper, we are now in challenging times. The economic reality is such that the Defence Forces must contribute to the correction of the public finances. It is intended, with the support of the chief of staff and within the resources available, to retain the capacity of the organisation to operate effectively across all roles. I am aware of the impact of the moratorium on the Permanent Defence Force, in particular in light of the very high turnover rate that is part of any military organisation. Within the available resources, the Government is committed to maintaining the strength of the Defence Forces at a level of 10,000 for all ranks, which I stated in a previous reply, for which Government approval has been secured in the context of the budget for 2010. This reflects the reductions in personnel recommended in the report of the special group on public service numbers and expenditure programmes.
Officials from the Department are continuing to engage with the military authorities in a review of structures and posts required to meet the operational requirements of the Defence Forces in light of the Government decision to maintain a complement of 10,000 personnel. It is expected that this review will be completed in March. It would, therefore, be inappropriate for me to comment on the outcome of the review at this stage. Following on from this review, discussions will commence with the Department of Finance to agree an overall structure for the Defence Forces, which is sustainable within a figure of 10,000 serving personnel in the Permanent Defence Force.
I am glad to say that while these are challenging times, the Defence Forces have risen to the challenge and are organised, equipped and staffed in a manner which will ensure that they can continue to deliver the services required of them by Government. I am advised that at this time the Defence Forces retain the capacity to undertake the tasks laid down by Government at home and abroad.
I have been advised that there have been serious discussions — I do not know whether the Minister of State can confirm this — about further downsizing the Defence Forces in other words, downsizing them by stealth. If that happens might it lead to a reduction in the present number of brigades, namely, three, and to units within the Defence Forces? For example, I heard that the cavalry and artillery units will be merged. Can the Minister of State confirm that this will happen?
Regarding the merging of brigades and other units, a review of the organisation of the Defence Forces is timely. The numbers will be maintained at 10,000. A sustainable structure to match this strength will ensure a continuation of the current excellent level of service. As I stated already, it would be inappropriate for me to comment on the outcome of the review which has not yet been completed.
Regarding possible closures or further downsizings, the closure of barracks and the consolidation of Defence Forces formations into a smaller number of locations is a key objective of the 2009 White Paper on Defence. Four barracks were closed — Monaghan, Longford, Rockhill and Lifford. The Government has made no decision in regard to any other barracks nor are further closures under its active consideration at this time.
Has the Minister of State any information on the merging of units, for example, the cavalry and artillery units? Because the Defence Forces are being downsized it is obvious that new structures are needed. However, does this mean the Defence Forces will be able to recruit and appoint positions at officer level? Will they be given the freedom to do that?
The Government remains supportive of the Defence Forces and their personnel. The modernisation delivered by the defence organisation has been acknowledged. The defence organisation differs from other areas of the public service in having decreased in size. The Defence Forces remain modern and effective and it is intended to retain the operational capacity of the organisation across all its roles. At the same time, the defence organisation must contribute to the correction of the public finances.
I am aware of the impact that measures such as a moratorium on recruitment, promotion and acting appointments are having on the Defence Forces in the light of the very high turnover rate that is part of any military organisation. However, the moratorium is a crucial part of the Government's approach to bringing public expenditure back into balance. In the light of the exaggerated impact of the measures on the Defence Forces, however, certain targeted exceptions are being sought to the measures. These limited exceptions are targeted at maintaining the operational capability and command arrangements of the Permanent Defence Forces. There has been very close consultation with the Chief of Staff at all stages.
