Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 2 Jun 2010

Vol. 711 No. 2

Other Questions

Defence Forces Personnel

Olwyn Enright

Question:

23 Deputy Olwyn Enright asked the Minister for Defence the number of persons who have left the Defence Forces since May 2009; the numbers per seniority, posting, rank, brigade, age and gender: the measures that he intends to take to ensure new recruits correct any imbalances caused by the numbers leaving the Defence Forces [23484/10]

Michael Noonan

Question:

43 Deputy Michael Noonan asked the Minister for Defence the current strength of the Permanent Defence Forces; the shortfall from the figure of 10,000 authorised by him; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [23512/10]

Bernard J. Durkan

Question:

156 Deputy Bernard J. Durkan asked the Minister for Defence if he plans to increase the strength of the Defence Forces over the next two years; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [23763/10]

Deputy Tony Killeen

I propose to take Questions Nos. 23, 43 and 156 together.

The number of persons who have left the Permanent Defence Force and associated details since May 2009 are presented in the following tabular statements. The corresponding information for the Reserve Defence Force is being compiled and will be forwarded to the Deputy as soon as it becomes available.

Within the available resources, the Government is committed to maintaining the strength of the Permanent Defence Force at a level of 10,000 all ranks, for which Government approval has been secured in the context of budget 2010. This reflects the reductions in personnel recommended in the report of the special group on public service numbers and expenditure programmes.

I am advised by the military authorities that the strength of the Permanent Defence Force as at 30 April 2010, the latest date for which figures are currently available, was 9,856 comprising 8,036 Army, 797 Air Corps and 1,023 Naval Service personnel. I am further advised that the strength of the Reserve Defence Force as at 30 April 2010, the latest date for which figures are currently available, was 6,304, comprising 6,035 Army Reserve and 269 Naval Service Reserve personnel.

Targeted recruitment will be carried out in 2010 to maintain the operational capability of the Defence Forces. In this regard, I have recently approved the recruitment of 40 recruits to the Naval Service. In addition, as I have already stated, the military authorities will shortly advertise for some limited recruitment to the Army.

I intend, with the support of the Chief of Staff and within the resources available, to retain the capacity of the organisation to operate effectively across all roles while contributing to the necessary public service economies.

I am advised that, at this time, the Defence Forces retain the capacity to undertake the tasks laid down by Government at home and overseas.

BREAKDOWN BY BRIGADE, UNIT AND RANK OF ENLISTED PERSONNEL DISCHARGED BETWEEN 01 MAY 2009 AND 30 APRIL 2010

BDE	UNIT	SGT MAJ	BQMS	CS	CQMS	SGT	CPL	PTE 3 *	PTE 2 *	APPTCE	REC	CADET	TOTAL
1 Southern BDE	1 BDE MP COY					1	1						2
	1 CAV SQN						1						1
	1 FD ARTY REGT							2					2
	1 FD ENG COY				1		1	2					4
	1 LOGS SP BN			1	2		2	4					9
	1 S BDE HQ		1			1	1	1					4
	1 S BDE RDF HQ							1					1
	12 INF BN						2	16	1				19
	3 INF BN			1		4	2	6	1				14
	31 RES CAV SQN				1								1
	31 RES FAR					2		3					5
	31 RES FD ENGR COY							1					1
	31 RES FD MP COY				1								1
	32 RES INF BN				1			1					2
	33 RES INF BN				2	1	1						4
	4 INF BN	1			1	1	2	2					7
	KILWORTH CAMP						2						2
1 Southern BDE Total	1	1	2	9	10	15	39	2	0	0	0	79

BREAKDOWN BY BRIGADE, UNIT AND RANK OF ENLISTED PERSONNEL DISCHARGED BETWEEN 01 MAY 2009 AND 30 APRIL 2010

BDE	UNIT	SGT MAJ	BQMS	CS	CQMS	SGT	CPL	PTE 3 *	PTE 2 *	APPTCE	REC	Cadet	Total
2 Eastern BDE	2 BDE MP COY						2						2
	2 CAV SQN					1		3					4
	2 E BDE HQ			1									1
	2 FD ARTY REGT					2		3					5
	2 FD CIS COY						2	2					4
	2 INF BN					1		4	2				7
	2 LOGS SP BN				1	1	2	7					11
	27 INF BN	1		1	2	2	4	7					17
	5 INF BN		1			1	1	7			1		11
	62 RES FD ENGR COY				1								1
	62 RES INF BN												0
	65 RES INF BN					1							1
	67 RES INF BN				1			1					2
	DFHQ CIS COY					2							2
	DFSM			2		4							6
	GORMANSTON CAMP COY						1						1
	LOGS BASE HOSPITAL	1				2		1					4
	MC KEE BKS COY			1		2	3	1					7
2 Eastern BDE Total	2	1	5	5	19	15	36	2	0	1	0	86

BREAKDOWN BY BRIGADE, UNIT AND RANK OF ENLISTED PERSONNEL DISCHARGED BETWEEN 01 MAY 2009 AND 30 APRIL 2010

BDE	UNIT	SGT MAJ	BQMS	CS	CQMS	SGT	CPL	PTE 3 *	PTE 2 *	APPTCE	REC	CADET	TOTAL
4 Western BDE	1 INF BN					3	2	6					11
	28 INF BN		1			1	4	13					19
	4 BDE MP COY						4						4
	4 BDE TRG CENTRE					1	1	1					3
	4 CAV SQN				1	1	1	6					9
	4 FD ARTY REGT		1			2	1	7					11
	4 FD CIS COY						3	1					4
	4 FD ENGR COY						1	1					2
	4 LOGS SP BN		1	1	2	4	3	11					22
	4 W BDE HQ			1		1	1	3					6
	51 RES INF BN						2	2					4
	54 RES FAR					1							1
	54 RES FD MP COY				1								1
	54 RES LSB					1		1					2
	56 RES INF BN					1	1	1					3
	58 RES INF BN				1			1					2
	6 INF BN	1				4	3	5	2				15
	USAC							1					1
4 Western BDE Total	1	3	2	5	20	27	60	2	0	0	0	120

BREAKDOWN BY BRIGADE, UNIT AND RANK OF ENLISTED PERSONNEL DISCHARGED BETWEEN 01 MAY 2009 AND 30 APRIL 2010— continued

BDE	UNIT	SGT MAJ	BQMS	CS	CQMS	SGT	CPL	PTE 3 *	PTE 2 *	APPTCE	REC	CADET	TOTAL
DFTC	1 AMD CAV SQN					1		1					2
	3 INF BN B COY				1			2	1				4
	AD REGT					3	1	3					7
	COOLMONEY CAMP					2		1					3
	CSC	1				2							3
	CSSC	1		1		4	1	1		1			9
	DFTA					1							1
	DFTC MP COY	1				2							3
	LBC		3		1		2	4					10
	MIL COL					1	1	2				1	5
	SSU		2			3	2	5					12
DFTC TOTAL		3	5	1	2	19	7	19	1	1	0	1	59

BREAKDOWN BY BRIGADE, UNIT AND RANK OF ENLISTED PERSONNEL DISCHARGED BETWEEN 01 MAY 2009 AND 30 APRIL 2010

BDE	UNIT	SGT MAJ	BQMS	CS	CQMS	SGT	CPL	PTE 3 *	PTE 2 *	APPTCE	REC	CADET	TOTAL
Air Corps	AC CIS SQN					1	1	4					6
	AC COLLEGE							1		2		1	4
	AC HQ												0
	NO 1 OPS WING					2	1	1					4
	NO 3 OPS WING							2					2
	NO 4 SP WING			3		3	1						7
	NO 5 SP WING					1	4	13					18
Air Corps Total		0	0	3	0	7	7	21	0	2	0	1	41

BREAKDOWN BY BRIGADE, UNIT AND RANK OF ENLISTED PERSONNEL DISCHARGED BETWEEN 01 MAY 2009 AND 30 APRIL 2010— continued

BDE	UNIT	SGT MAJ	BQMS	CS	CQMS	SGT	CPL	PTE 3 *	PTE 2 *	APPTCE	REC	CADET	TOTAL
Naval Service	FLOTILLA RELIEF POOL			1		1							2
	NS RES — CORK UNIT					1							1
	NS COL					1		3					4
	NS HQ	1											1
	NS OPS COMD	1		3		2	1	5	6				18
	NS SP COMD			3		3	1	3	1				11
NAVAL SERVICE TOTAL	2	0	7	0	8	2	11	7	0	0	0	37

AVERAGE AGE BY BRIGADE AND RANK OF ENLISTED PERSONNEL DISCHARGED BETWEEN 01 MAY 2009 AND 30 APRIL 2010

BDE	SGT MAJ	BQMS	CS	CQMS	SGT	CPL	PTE 3 *	PTE 2 *	APPTCE	REC	CADET
1 SOUTHERN BDE	58.98	59.52	51.99	57.86	58.35	50.91	45.75	21.60
2 EASTERN BDE	59.17	58.14	51.47	52.92	49.99	48.35	38.11	28.26		19.57
4 WESTERN BDE	58.61	58.39	55.36	56.59	52.99	50.38	47.67	20.23
DFTC	54.51	56.58	57.03	54.32	53.39	48.47	38.26	23.05	20.72		28.61
AIR CORPS			58.23		52.93	42.24	39.90		19.28		21.99
NAVAL SERVICE	59.96		53.61		49.25	46.90	28.88	20.74

BREAKDOWN BY GENDER, BRIGADE AND RANK OF ENLISTED PERSONNEL DISCHARGED BETWEEN 01 MAY 2009 AND 30 APRIL 2010

GENDER	BDE	SGT MAJ	BQMS	CS	CQMS	SGT	CPL	PTE 3 *	PTE 2 *	APPTCE	REC	CADET	TOTAL
Female	2 EASTERN BDE							2					2
	4 WESTERN BDE					1							1
	DFTC					1		1					2
	NAVAL SERVICE							2					2
Female Total		0	0	0	0	2	0	5	0	0	0	0	7
Male	1 SOUTHERN BDE	1	1	2	9	10	15	39	2				79
	2 EASTERN BDE	2	1	5	5	19	15	34	2		1		84
	4 WESTERN BDE	1	3	2	5	19	27	60	2				119
	DFTC	3	5	1	2	18	7	18	1	1		1	57
	AIR CORPS			3		7	7	21		2		1	41
	NAVAL SERVICE	2		7		8	2	9	7				35
Male Total		9	10	20	21	81	73	181	14	3	1	2	415

BREAKDOWN BY GENDER, BRIGADE AND RANK OF OFFICERS WHO RETIRED BETWEEN 01 MAY 2009 AND 30 APR 2010

GENDER	BDE	LT GEN	MAJ GEN	BRIG GEN	COL	LT COL	COMDT	CAPT	2/LT	TOTAL
FEMALE	2 E. BDE						1			1
	DFTC						1	2		3
FEMALE TOTAL		0	0	0	0	0	2	2	0	4
MALE	1 S. BDE			1			4			5
	2 E. BDE		1	1	3	7	13	5		30
	4 W. BDE						2			2
	DFTC				4	4	5	0		13
	AC							2		2
	NS			2		1	1		1	5
	OTHERS		1		2	1				4
Male Total		0	2	4	9	13	25	7	1	61

AVERAGE AGE BY BRIGADE AND RANK OF OFFICERS RETIRED BETWEEN 01 MAY 2009 AND 30 APRIL 2010

BDE	LT GEN	MAJ GEN	BRIG GEN	COL	LT COL	COMDT	CAPT	2/LT
1 Southern BDE			61.00		53.00	57.00
2 Eastern BDE		61.00	60.00	61.33	56.88	53.23	31.00
4 Western BDE						54.33
DFTC				59.75	57.00	55.00	36.50
AC							35.00
NS								22.00
Others		62.00		60.00	55.00

BREAKDOWN BY BRIGADE, UNIT AND RANK OF OFFICERS RETIRED BETWEEN 01 MAY2009 AND 30 APRIL 2010

BDE	UNIT	LT GEN	MAJ GEN	BRIG GEN	COL	LT COL	COMDT	CAPT	2/LT	TOTAL
1 Southern BDE	1 S BDE 1 FAR						1			1
	1 S BDE 12 INF BN						1			1
	1 S BDE GOC			1						1
	1 S BDE HQ						1			1
	1 S BDE LSB						1			1
1 Southern BDE Total	0	0	1	0	0	4	0	0	5
2 EASTERN BDE	2 E BDE 2 FAR							1		1
	2 E BDE 2 INF BN					1	2	1		4
	2 E BDE 2 LSB					1				1
	2 E BDE 27 INF BN						1			1
	2 E BDE DFSM					1				1
	2 E BDE HQ				1	1	1	1		4
	2 E BDE LBH							1		1
	2 E BDE LSB						1			1
	2 E BDE RES FCES HQ					1				1
	DFHQ D COS (OPS)		1							1
	DFHQ D ENGRS						1			1
	DFHQ D HRMS					1	1			2
	DFHQ D MED				1					1
	DFHQ D MED SEC						3			3
	DFHQ D OPS						1			1
	DFHQ D ORD							1		1
	DFHQ D RES FCES					1	3			4
	DFHQ LS				1					1
	DHFQ A COS			1						1
2 Eastern BDE Total	0	1	1	3	7	14	5	0	31
4 Western BDE	4 W BDE 54 RES FAR						1			1
	4 W BDE 54 RES MP COY						1			1
4 WESTERN BDE TOTAL	0	0	0	0	0	2	0	0	2

BREAKDOWN BY BRIGADE, UNIT AND RANK OF OFFICERS RETIRED BETWEEN 01 MAY 2009 AND 30 APRIL 2010

BDE	UNIT	LT GEN	MAJ GEN	BRIG GEN	COL	LT COL	COMDT	CAPT	2/LT	TOTAL
DFTC	DFTC CCSC				1			1		2
	DFTC CCSSC					1	2			3
	DFTC CMC				1					1
	DFTC DFTA						1			1
	DFTC HQ						2			2
	DFTC HQ SSU					1				1
	DFTC MED DET							1		1
	DFTC MIL ADMIN SCH					1				1
	DFTC MIL COL				1					1
	DFTC MIL COL C&S SCH						1			1
	DFTC OC ADR					1				1
	DTFC UNTSI				1					1
DFTC TOTAL		0	0	0	4	4	6	2	0	16
NS	NS COLLEGE OFFR TRG								1	1
	NS OC LOGS NAV SP COMD					1				1
	NS OC NAV OPS COMD			1						1
	NS OC NAV SP COMD			1						1
	NS OPS COMD SHORE OPS						1			1
NS TOTAL		0	0	2	0	1	1	0	1	5
AC	AC NO 3 OPS WING							1		1
	AC TRG COLLEGE							1		1
AC TOTAL		0	0	0	0	0	0	2	0	2
OTHERS	LOA					1				1
	OVERSEAS EUBRUSSELS				1					1
	OVERSEAS OHQ EUFOR CHAD		1							1
	OVERSEAS OSCE				1					1
OTHERS TOTAL		0	1	0	2	1	0	0	0	4
TOTAL		1	1	4	9	13	27	9	1	65

Deputy Jimmy Deenihan

Would the Minister not agree that a reduction of 400 in Army personnel, from 8,433 to 8,036 from March 2009 to the end of April 2010, is worrying? Can he provide a reason for this major reduction? Is he aware that foreign military authorities, especially those in the Middle East, are now advertising in this country for aircraft expert technicians and army personnel? I understand this could be considered illegal. I was in contact with the Minister because I received a number of complaints about advertising. Is he aware of any of our personnel being lost to other countries, whether from the Middle East or elsewhere? Some of our national newspapers may not be aware that this is considered illegal under the 1954 Act. Has the Minister informed the editors of the various national newspapers this might be illegal? That would be very important.

Deputy Tony Killeen

It is not helpful or positive to have a fixation on numbers regarding the strength of the Defence Forces. It would be far better for the Defence Forces and their capability if we were to concentrate on that capability to do the job effectively. One factor that must be acknowledged is that with smaller numbers both the Department of Defence and the Defence Forces have a considerably greater output than was the case heretofore. That said, the sensible way to approach the issue of recruitment is to look very carefully at all the various sectors and target recruitment to those areas where it is immediately required.

The drop in numbers was driven to a large extent by the economic situation, in the first instance, and also by the recommendations of the McCarthy report which recommended a particular reduction in numbers. I have seen no evidence that the reduction in numbers has been impacted on in any way by former Army, Navy or Air Corps personnel being recruited by other armies. I can have that checked out further but am not aware of it at this point.

Deputy Brian O’Shea

Go raibh maith agat. I note that the last time we were here for Question Time, the Minister indicated that we were 123 below 10,000, a number that has increased by 21 in the interim, a figure that is less than I had expected. Obviously, this has another impact in terms of positions that will become available for recruitment. The question posed asked about rank, brigade, age and so on. In terms of the people who are leaving the forces is there any direction the Minister can give us as to what level they are leaving at, whether officer, NCO or private level, and from where are those who are leaving coming?

Is there any breakdown of the people making up the increase in numbers of 21 since last month? From which branch of the services do they come and what rank do they have?

Deputy Tony Killeen

Deputy O'Shea raises a very important question. It impacts on the kind of recruitment campaign one might carry out, especially if there was an indication that people were leaving in large numbers from a particular segment and one would have to try to replace them in that area. One factor that has become apparent — I am not clear whether it is a trend — is that the figure of 21 is considerably less than one would have expected in a month.

One might expect two or three times that amount. At this point I do not know if the trend will be continued, as the numbers leaving per month would have an obvious effect on the rate of recruitment in trying to get to and maintain the number at around 10,000. This is particularly true in the context of trying to ensure the capability of each individual sector in the Army.

The only trend I have noticed, which may be more anecdotal than evidence-based, is that it appears to be difficult to retain women in the armed services. That is not an experience solely confined to this country and it may have to be addressed. Our experience does not appear to be different from those elsewhere. I have not noticed any other trends with regard to people leaving at officer level, etc.

It must be borne in mind that in some instances of a particular year, it may be the anniversary — if that is the right term — of a particularly big recruitment and in that case there may be a large number of retirees. We are trying to consider at what point that may have an input. The number of 21 in the past month is one of the smallest changes.

Deputy Jimmy Deenihan

In my question I mentioned gender. Will the Minister give an indication of the number of women leaving the service and the overall percentage of women in the Defence Forces? The Minister indicated that recruitment will be targeted, so does it follow that preferential treatment will be given in the recruitment of women?

Deputy Tony Killeen

That would be very difficult. The problem I mentioned is not really a question of recruitment but retention in certain areas, which is very difficult to address and needs to be considered in detail. On the question of rank and numbers, we would ideally need to look at a very large number of pages, and it would defy the patience level of the Leas-Cheann Comhairle if I tried to read them out.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I thank the Minister for the consideration.

Deputy Jimmy Deenihan

The Minister should ensure the employment control framework can be agreed as soon as possible. That is the Minister's task for the next week in his hands-on approach. The other issue regards gender, which I continually pursued with the Minister's predecessor. Consideration should be given to the Curragh, where there is the highest concentration of women officers involved in the forces at all levels. There was a proposal for a crèche in the Curragh but has it been shelved or is it still under active consideration? Women are leaving the Defence Forces for some reason and they may not be getting the supports most young married women would get. If they did, it might encourage such women to remain in the Defence Forces.

Deputy Tony Killeen

It may well be that the question of retention is more appropriate for direct attention than recruitment, and a raft of ideas has been aired. In some respects it might be reasonable to indicate that the White Paper will be very important in setting the medium-term goals for the Defence Forces. I would like to be in a position to get into that consideration as quickly as possible.

Deputy Jimmy Deenihan

The Minister did not address the crèche issue.

Deputy Tony Killeen

I will have to get back to the Deputy on that. I have heard the issue mentioned but I do not have the required detail today.

Deputy Jimmy Deenihan

The Minister will make it a priority.

Deputy Tony Killeen

The Deputy is providing many difficult tasks and not much time to complete them.

Defence Forces Reserve

Pat Rabbitte

Question:

24 Deputy Pat Rabbitte asked the Minister for Defence if he will make a statement on his address to the Annual Delegate Conference of the Reserve Defence Forces Representative Association; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [23364/10]

Deputy Tony Killeen

On 15 May 2010 I addressed the 16th delegate conference of the Reserve Defence Force Representative Association, RDFRA. In my address I dealt with a range of issues, including the current challenging economic circumstances, which have required the Government to take tough and decisive action and which has won international respect. I made the point that whereas some of the necessary measures have been unpalatable, the Government is determined to do what it takes to put Ireland back on the road to sustainable economic recovery and growth.

Other issues I addressed related to recruitment and promotion, and the value for money review of the Reserve Defence Forces, RDF. The position on recruitment and promotion is that, as with the broader public service, the defence organisation is required to operate with reduced funding in 2010. Limited recruitment in order to replace existing members who leave the RDF was sanctioned last May. This is subject to the overall strength figure that existed at 1 January 2009, which was 7,671, not being exceeded. This ongoing limited recruitment is being closely monitored and will be kept under review in the light of the future budgetary provision available to the Department of Defence.

I outlined the position on the value for money review of the Reserve Defence Force being carried out under the Government's 2009 to 2011 programme of value for money and policy reviews on which work has recently commenced. I confirmed that RDFRA, as a key stakeholder, would be consulted during the course of the review. I informed the conference that it is envisaged that the review will be completed by the end of 2010. It is planned that the findings of the review, together with the lessons learned from the Reserve Defence Force review implementation plan, will assist in informing decisions regarding the future development of the Reserve Defence Force. I look forward to receiving the steering committee's recommendations in this regard.

I also updated delegates on a number of specific issues which had been raised by the RDFRA general secretary and executive members when I met them on 28 April 2010. The issues included the post of the director of the Reserve Defence Forces and the position of paid training. With regard to the director appointment, I advised that this is being dealt with in the context of the review of structures and posts in the Permanent Defence Force. With regard to training I confirmed my commitment to ensure that in 2010, reservists who complete specified voluntary unpaid training will be afforded the opportunity to avail of a minimum of seven days paid training. I complimented the reserve on the time and commitment that members of the Reserve Defence Force have voluntarily given since the formation of the State.

Deputy Brian O’Shea

I understand the paid training was reduced by approximately two thirds, which would be in line with the McCarthy recommendation. Will the Minister confirm if that is the case? In regard to recruitment, replacement recruitment up to a certain level was sanctioned by the Minister's predecessor in May last year. The level of recruitment into the Reserve Defence Forces has been nowhere near what is desirable for quite some time.

In the current position, where men and women under 25 are unemployed, is there not a very strong case for opening recruitment in the RDF? As the Minister knows, one of the suggestions from the RDFRA was that people be given six weeks of training and introduction into the Reserve Defence Forces in the leaving certificate year. In general terms, there is much concern among the Reserve Defence Forces about the length of the recruitment process. It has been suggested that this extends to more than six months but there does not seem to be a particular justification for that. Will the Minister consider the process from application to recruitment, as the period involved should be greatly reduced? There is a grave concern that people lose interest because this process drags on for so long.

Deputy Tony Killeen

The 2010 provision under subhead D is €4.7 million and this will provide approximately 31,000 paid man days. That will allow 3,500 members to undertake seven paid training days each with the provision for career courses and so on. The provision for 2009 was €8.9 million, of which €6.651 million was utilised. The number of training days utilised in 2009 was approximately 54,190. On that occasion, 3,565 reservists availed of paid training compared to the likely number of 3,500 this year.

Deputy O'Shea mentioned that the slow progress in recruitment was due to the slow process. It may well be a valid point and it has been mentioned by members of the reserves. There are probably other factors which may be more fundamental, as I commented in an earlier reply. We must consider the matter. We will have an opportunity to undertake some of this in the context of the value for money report, which we will receive and consider.

Deputy Jimmy Deenihan

The Minister might provide the House with some of his thoughts on the integrated Reserve Defence Force and the First Line Reserve. Does he still plan on going ahead with both? Will the reserves form part of future UN missions in which we are involved? At the conference, it was strongly conveyed that, to provide motivation, the integrated reserve would be the way forward, but that plan seems to have been abandoned by the Department.

It is alarming that, whereas there were 24,000 people in the RDF not too many years ago, the current number is approximately 6,000, which the Minister confirmed. Will he clarify his position on the integrated reserve and the First Line Reserve?

Deputy Tony Killeen

As the Deputies will be aware, considerable progress was made on the inclusion of RDF members in a UN mission. This plan did not proceed for a number of reasons. Until a new mission becomes available, progressing this element will not be possible, but it is held to be a matter of considerable importance by the representative association at the reserve level. The association has raised this matter with me at the conference and in my meeting with it. I would like to see the integration of reserve members in a mission developed.

Deputy David Stanton

Apart from training ad nauseam, what else does the reserve do? What is its role and function?

Deputy Tony Killeen

As set out, its role and function are to support the Permanent Defence Force in a number of operations. As I stated in connection with the Red Cross, some of this was envisaged in a period when the opportunities and threats presenting differed from those currently at play. I strongly suspect that the recommendation of a particular report to cut the numbers in the RDF to one third was driven by this view of the world and would reduce the potential and role of the reserve. It is not something to which I subscribe and I will deal with the matter as time allows.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I will only allow a brief supplementary, as we are over time.

Deputy Jimmy Deenihan

An issue arose at the conference, namely, delays in gaining medical and security clearances were holding up recruitment. Can the Minister do anything to accelerate the process? For example, one could enter the reserve defence force of our neighbouring jurisdiction more quickly than one could enter ours. Gaining medical and security clearances for the reserve in the UK is also faster.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy's point is made.

Deputy Tony Killeen

In the context of the Defence Forces and the RDF, everyone would accept that security clearances are important. Given the nature of the role, medical clearances are also an issue. As we all know, some delays have occurred partly because of the requirement for people in many service areas to have security and Garda clearances for certain activities and professions where such requirements did not apply previously.

Defence Forces Recruitment

Jan O'Sullivan

Question:

25 Deputy Jan O’Sullivan asked the Minister for Defence the current strength of the Defence Forces; when he intends to commence recruitment to bring the strength of the Defence Forces back up to 10,000; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [23359/10]

Joe Carey

Question:

28 Deputy Joe Carey asked the Minister for Defence when recruitment of new personnel in the Defence Forces will commence; the number of positions that will be offered; if these positions will be in the Army, Navy or Air Corps; if recruitment will extend to the Reserve Defence Force; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [23468/10]

Seán Barrett

Question:

29 Deputy Seán Barrett asked the Minister for Defence when the authority to recruit and promote in the Defence Forces will be removed from the Department of Finance and returned to the Defence Forces; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [23457/10]

P. J. Sheehan

Question:

34 Deputy P. J. Sheehan asked the Minister for Defence the progress that has been made on agreeing an Employment Control Framework for the Defence Forces that will enable some recruiting and promotions to resume; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [23525/10]

Deputy Tony Killeen

I propose to take Questions Nos. 25, 28, 29 and 34 together.

Within the available resources, the Government is committed to maintaining the strength of the PDF, at a level of 10,000 all ranks, for which Government approval has been secured in the context of budget 2010. This reflects the reductions in personnel recommended in the report of the special group on public service numbers and expenditure programmes. I have outlined the current strength, but targeted recruitment will be carried out in 2010 to maintain the operational capability of the Defence Forces. We have approved the recruitment of 40 people to the Naval Service and further recruitment will occur.

In light of the reduced budgetary provision available for 2009, all recruitment to the RDF was suspended. Following a subsequent review and examination of RDF personnel numbers and budgets for 2009, limited recruitment to fill vacancies arising due to existing reserve members resigning or being discharged in the normal manner resumed. The numbers recruited will depend on the numbers leaving. This limited recruitment is continuing subject to the overall strength level that existed at 1 January 2009 not being exceeded. This recruitment is being monitored and kept under review in the light of the uptake of paid training within the RDF and the future budgetary considerations. I will take account of the points made by Deputies in today's debate.

I have outlined the review that is under way on structures and posts in the PDF. Following this, discussions will start with the Department of Finance on the employment control framework, which we have discussed.

Once the employment control framework has been agreed with the Department of Finance, sanction for promotion will be delegated to the Department of Defence with ongoing control monitoring by the former on a monthly basis to ensure compliance. With the support of the military authorities and within the resources available, I intend to retain the capacity of the organisation to operate effectively.

Deputy Brian O’Shea

The shortfall in the PDF numbers 144 people. While 40 people are being recruited into the Naval Service, the numbers are not large. It is striking that, although the McCarthy target of reducing the number in the PDF to 10,000 from 10,500 was to be achieved in a two to three-year period, it was achieved before the end of last year.

Given the fact that many young people would like to be recruited into the Defence Forces, is there a case to be made for reverting to the Department of Finance to seek a more graduated approach to reducing the numbers? If an additional 200 people were recruited in 2010, further recruitment could occur and the target set by McCarthy could still be reached.

Deputy Tony Killeen

There may well be a case for approaching the Department of Finance on foot of Deputy O'Shea's general point, but I would be more comfortable doing so in the context of arguing that the operational capability of the Defence Forces was being negatively impacted by certain numbers instead of by adhering to a rounded figure like 10,000, which seems a somewhat suspicious target. Instead of referring to a particular number, it would be better for the operational capability of the Army, navy and air force were we to examine what deficiencies or requirements there might be in numbers at all ranks, particularly at recruitment stage, and made a case on foot of that.

Deputy Jimmy Deenihan

I gather from the Minister's comments that there is no requirement for 10,000 people. Instead, it is a question of how efficient the numbers are. Will the Minister be specific and tell us whether the 10,000 figure is the accepted strength, the maximum or the minimum?

I welcome the recruitment to the navy, but will the Minister make use of the Naval Service Reserve and focus on recruitment to it? There seems to be a specific problem with the Naval Service as regards personnel. Will he respond to these two questions?

Deputy Tony Killeen

Historically, new recruits to the navy in particular have tended to come from the reserve. It is how many recruits enter the PDF. It is hardly surprising and will be likely to feature. I have not examined the recruitment numbers over the years. I understand there is a trend for younger members of the reserve to apply to be permanent members when the opportunity arises. That is to be welcomed.

I think it is dangerous to engage in a debate on whether the figure of 10,000 is a ceiling or a floor, as this Department has a mission to fulfil. I would be far more comfortable presenting the numbers and the capabilities, which include equipment and other considerations. We have to face the fact that this must be done within financial parameters that are very difficult at the moment. We are on far stronger ground when we say that this is what the State expects of its armed forces and this is what we need in order to do it. We are on weak ground when we cling to a magical and somewhat artificial number. Contrary to what Deputy Deenihan may be thinking, it may well transpire that the number might not be a magical 10,000, but it could well be higher rather than lower.

Deputy Brian O’Shea

I take the Minister's point that 10,000 is an arbitrary figure and the real issue is that the Defence Forces are a credible organisation. Is he satisfied that the current strength of the Permanent Defence Force means he has a credible organisation in all its aspects?

Deputy Tony Killeen

I have no doubt at all about that. Having spoken to the military authorities, I am satisfied that we have extremely credible Defence Forces. The credibility of the forces with our people was greatly enhanced last winter during the flood crisis and the snow and ice crisis. We often tend to overlook the value of their contribution and in some areas, there is a tendency to denigrate that contribution, something we should carefully guard against.

Defence Forces Reserve

Dan Neville

Question:

26 Deputy Dan Neville asked the Minister for Defence if his attention has been drawn to the recommendations made at the recent Annual Delegate Conference of RDFORRA that the future development of the Reserve Defence Force depends on advances in recruit training, including the recruitment of individuals after their leaving certificate and the provision of training for them for six or eight weeks during the summer months; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [23510/10]

Joe Costello

Question:

27 Deputy Joe Costello asked the Minister for Defence when recruitment will commence into the Reserve Defence Forces; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [23349/10]

David Stanton

Question:

37 Deputy David Stanton asked the Minister for Defence further to Parliamentary Question No. 81 of 20 January 2010, if the review of the Reserve Defence Forces has commenced as provided for in the 2009 to 2011 phase of the Government’s value for money and policy review initiative; the details of progress made regarding the future development of the RDF; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [23449/10]

Joe Costello

Question:

46 Deputy Joe Costello asked the Minister for Defence the reason training programmes have not been put in place to facilitate a better trained reserve; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [23348/10]

David Stanton

Question:

54 Deputy David Stanton asked the Minister for Defence further to Parliamentary Question No. 81 of 20 January 2010, his plans regarding the future development of the Reserve Defence Forces; the current number of reservists; the budget for training of the RDF in 2010; the amount expended to date; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [23450/10]

Deputy Tony Killeen

I propose to take Question Nos. 26, 27, 37, 46 and 54 together.

The Reserve Defence Force review implementation plan has provided the framework for the development of the reserve over recent years. The plan outlined a series of steps which were designed to significantly enhance the quality of training within the Reserve Defence Force. These steps, together with re-organisation, enhanced working relationships with Permanent Defence Force units and improved equipment were intended to enhance the capability of the Reserve Defence Force and improve interoperability with the Permanent Defence Force.

Over the period of the plan, training syllabi have been reviewed and reformed, new training introduced and there have been improvements to the equipment for use by members of the reserve. A revised training strategy is now in place. This is supported by new syllabi and includes training delivery through distance learning and the affiliation of RDF units with PDF units.

The plan also provided for the development of an integrated element of the reserve. This element of the reserve was to integrate and train with the Permanent Defence Force. The integrated element of the reserve was to receive additional training to the non-integrated element with members undertaking a minimum of 21 days paid training, in addition to unpaid training. A pilot integration programme was introduced in 2007 and extended into 2008. The numbers participating in the pilots were lower than anticipated, at just over 300 reservists over the two-year period. Although the uptake of this training was disappointing, valuable lessons have been learned.

I am aware that there is a wide variety of views on how best to develop the reserve. A value for money review of the Reserve Defence Force has begun. The steering committee overseeing this review has recently met and has discussed possible approaches to stakeholder consultation. I have been informed that it will be commencing this consultation on a phased basis over the coming weeks and months.

As of 30 April 2010, there were 6,304 reservists, with 6,035 in the Army reserve and 269 in the Naval Service reserve. Recruitment is ongoing at the moment. The provision in 2010 for Reserve Defence Force training, including paid training and gratuities, is €4.7 million. Members of the Reserve undertake both paid and unpaid training. This will provide in 2010 for approximately 31,000 man days of paid training. Having regard to the number of reservists availing of paid training over recent years, this should provide reservists with seven days paid training and allow for certain career courses in line with reserve priorities. There will also be an increased reliance on unpaid training.

The bulk of reserve expenditure occurs over the summer months and gratuities are paid at year-end. Approximately €550,000 of that has been utilised to date.

Deputy Jimmy Deenihan

The number of the Reserve Defence Force has been reduced from 24,000 a few years ago to just over 6,000. However, the international trend has been to increase the size of reserve defence forces. For example, many British army personnel in Afghanistan are from its reserve defence forces. We seem to be going the opposite way in Ireland and there seems to be a deliberate policy to reduce the numbers and to make the Reserve Defence Force irrelevant. I see huge opportunities for a vibrant reserve defence force in this country.

Why was the Reserve Defence Force not used during the recent "big freeze" and flooding? It was not used and its members were not asked, which is something that came up at their conference. It strikes me that we are going against the international trend, and the Government is not asking the reserves to be a necessary aid to the civil power, which is something they are supposed to do.

Deputy Tony Killeen

An element of the international trend in many countries has been that the numbers in permanent defence forces have been dramatically reduced and replaced by similar numbers in the reserve defence forces. I would not be happy to go down that path. There is a requirement for a particular level. We have been discussing that in terms of numbers, but I think we should be discussing it in terms of capabilities of the Permanent Defence Force, especially in respect of its interoperability requirements, such as when members of the Permanent Defence Force are operating with Finnish troops on foreign missions, as we were in Chad, and in other UN and EU sponsored missions. In some cases, troops from other countries tend to have a substantial number of reserves, which is something that appears to work quite well. Nevertheless, we need to maintain the basic requirement for the Permanent Defence Force and then examine what we need from the reserve.

The question tabled by Deputy Stanton encapsulates the nature of the challenge, which is to figure out exactly the nature of what we require from the Reserve Defence Force. We may require three or four things or more. The pilot programme was entered into quite properly, and we have major lessons to learn from that.

Deputy Brian O’Shea

The Reserve Defence Force representative organisation pointed out that the quality of training for reservists is not consistent throughout the country. Would the Minister like to comment on that?

There is a number of reasons the recruitment of more people into the Reserve Defence Force is socially desirable. Organisations such as the Reserve Defence Force, the Irish Red Cross, the Knights of Malta and the Civil Defence actually add to the capacity of the community in terms of skills, leadership quality and so on. With such high levels of unemployment, there is a great need to get young people involved in the Reserve Defence Force in order to give them something useful to do. It will enhance their employability but I believe it will also contribute in large degree to making our community a more skilled place by having people available who have the type of skills that can support the community when in need, whether required by particular individuals or because of disasters. Broadening the role of the Reserve Defence Force and giving it a more relevant and meaningful role in the context of today's needs in our country requires urgent attention. I very much encourage the Minister to take it as a real priority.

Deputy Tony Killeen

I apologise to Deputy Deenihan as I missed an important element of his previous question relating to the involvement of the Reserve Defence Force in instances such as the snow and ice. We need to learn from that for the future because the Permanent Defence Force personnel involved did an outstanding job and the public appreciated it, particularly in the areas where it was really needed. It seems a role for the Reserve Defence Force can be examined. The Civil Defence was very much to the fore, particularly during the flooding.

The point made by Deputy O'Shea on it being socially desirable is very important and I fully agree with him on it. Unfortunately, there are economic constraints and sometimes no matter how much one wants to avoid it one is forced to pick priorities and deal with them. It is something I want to examine in the context of where we see the future of the Reserve Defence Force.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I want to take supplementary questions and time is short so if the Minister bears with me I will take the supplementary questions and the Minister might give an expanded response.

Deputy Tony Killeen

I missed the point about training, which I will deal with.

Deputy David Stanton

Do the numbers mentioned by the Minister include the non-effective list where the Reserve Defence Force is concerned, and if not will he at some stage, if he does not have the information to hand, let us know what is the up-to-date non-effective list versus the effective list? Will the Minister agree that some young people are attracted to things military and the Reserve Defence Force met that need at a relatively low cost regarding discipline, fitness and career preparation? Is it necessary to pay reservists the same amount as regular soldiers? Could more be included if that was looked at?

Deputy Jimmy Deenihan

In any future recruitment to the Reserve Defence Force will the Minister put emphasis on the recruitment of women? Will he give us an indication on what proportion of the current Reserve Defence Force is made up of women? I am sure it would be a way of encouraging women to get more involved with the Permanent Defence Force.

Deputy Tony Killeen

I will have to come back to Deputy Deenihan on the number of women because I do not have the information with me. I think I know the numbers with regard to effective and non-effective but I will send them on to Deputy Stanton. It is also important. I agree with his point on military discipline and all of the other elements which are quite attractive to young people and have positive potential. The question of costs, which he raised, is one which we will not be able to dodge if we want to have a meaningful role for the Reserve Defence Force in the future, which I strongly believe we must.

Deputy Brian O’Shea

The Minister did not respond to me on the consistency of the quality of training for the Reserve Defence Force throughout the country.

Deputy Tony Killeen

My apologies. That has been mentioned to me anecdotally and I will come back to the Deputy in the House on the matter because if it were true it would need to be addressed.