Micheál Martin
Question:1 Deputy Micheál Martin asked the Taoiseach if he will outline the arrangements he has made to distribute a formal review of the implementation of the programme for Government. [17275/11]
Ceisteanna — Questions
Programme for Government
Micheál Martin
Question:2 Deputy Micheál Martin asked the Taoiseach the measures he will publish in the near future regarding Government performance beyond the 100 day report; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [18384/11]
Joe Higgins
Question:3 Deputy Joe Higgins asked the Taoiseach the position regarding the implementation to date of the programme for Government; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [18576/11]
Gerry Adams
Question:4 Deputy Gerry Adams asked the Taoiseach when he will distribute a formal review of the implementation of the programme for Government. [18706/11]
I propose to take Questions Nos. 1 to 4, inclusive, together.
In line with established practice, the 100 day progress report on the implementation of the programme for Government was posted on my Department's website on Thursday, 16 June, where it is accessible to all who wish to be informed. I do not propose to circulate a formal report. I envisage that an annual report on progress will be published by my Department and that it will also be posted on its website. When the Government achieves its objectives, periodic press releases will continue to be issued and posted on my Department's or the relevant Department's website, as appropriate.
While my Department co-ordinates policy in a number of ways, responsibility for implementing specific aspects of the programme for Government rests with the relevant Department. Responsibility for implementation rests in the first instance with each Minister, having regard to the programme for Government and the matrix of priorities and responsibilities within and across each portfolio.
I thank the Taoiseach for his reply. Three weeks ago the Taoiseach and the Tánaiste held a press conference and issued a document mainly about implementing measures prepared by the last Government. It included almost none of the specific commitments the Taoiseach made in respect of the first 100 days in government, such as his personal diplomatic initiative or his ban on constituency work by Ministers.
The Taoiseach also stated on the "Late Late Show" that he had prepared report cards on all Ministers relating to the implementation of promises. When will we be allowed to see these report cards? Do these score cards exist? If they do, surely the Taoiseach is now in a position to publish them.
This is not a new policy of the Taoiseach. As long ago as 2007, he said he would resign if he did not implement everything he promised. He also said he would agree performance score cards with every Minister and that he would publish them.
It is a good job Deputy Martin did not get one.
Deputy Buttimer would definitely be in trouble.
Deputy Martin would get a "no grade".
Deputy Martin will not see report cards published. It is a matter for engagement with all Ministers. Currently, I am actively involved in holding a series of bilateral meetings with Ministers in respect of their portfolios, responsibility and the programme for Government in so far as it impacts on their Departments and responsibility. I have had a number of such meetings.
The programme for Government sets out the objectives of what the Government intends to achieve over its period in office. At the end of the first 100 days, a progress report on the achievements of the Government in its first 100 days was produced and published and it is on the website for everybody to read.
The question asked by Deputy Martin on publishing, in the near future, a report on the Government's performance beyond the first 100 days report refers to the remaining items in the programme for Government, of which there are many and which we aim to achieve during our period in office.
The 100 days lark was an election gimmick.
A lark is never a gimmick.
If one read what the Taoiseach announced during that press conference, it bore no relation to the incredible commitments he made to many people throughout the country on specific items, such as retaining all hospitals, his personal diplomatic initiative, which he has not embarked upon, and many other issues. Now the 100 days has passed, we will go back to an annual review. The Taoiseach said he would not publish a formal review. Why will he not do so?
It is already on the Department's website and it is accessible to everybody in the country and beyond.
The 100 days was the election gimmick. There are set procedures in terms of reviewing the programme for Government with every Minister and on informing the public about the degree to which commitments made in the programme are adhered to. Normally, that takes the course of a formal review. Who will conduct and be responsible for that formal review in the Taoiseach's Department?
Perhaps the Deputy did not hear my reply. I said that from time to time as Ministers and their Departments achieve their objectives, it will be posted on the Department's website for everybody to access and to read. It will be either on my Department's website or on the relevant Minister's one. That is the way the procedure operates. We can collate all of that at the end of the year and have a second collection of achievements from the programme for Government. As objectives and targets are achieved and as issues are dealt with, it will be posted on each Minister's website. That is appropriate in order that everybody can access the information and understand progress is being made.
In the programme for Government there is a commitment to a major undertaking to secure burden sharing on an equitable basis, meaning speculating banks should take losses incurred in property gambling, rather than inflicting them on taxpayers. There is a further promise to secure a reduction in the penal and opportunistic interest rates charged by the European Union as part of the programme to save banks from their gambling losses on the backs of the Irish people. In four months not one iota has been achieved in these major objectives which are also fundamental to the national finances. What are the Taoiseach's revised aims?
As the Deputy is aware, a figure of approximately €5 billion has been leveraged from subordinated bond investors. The Minister for Finance has made it clear that he intends to have discussions with the European Central Bank in respect of senior bondholders in Anglo Irish Bank commencing in the autumn. An interest rate reduction, agreed in principle at the meeting on 11 March, has not yet been concluded. However, that discussion is continuing.
Has the Government determined the effect of the delays in implementation of the stated programme with regard to the estimated cost to the taxpayer?
One would wish these issues could be concluded quickly rather than later. When the Minister for Finance proceeded down the road towards responsibility sharing with subordinated bondholders, he was not aware that court cases would be taken, but that matter has been dealt with to a degree. We cannot provide a date or an absolute conclusion on the matter, as agreement is required on the Government's intention of pursuing senior bondholders in Anglo Irish Bank and a decision cannot be taken unilaterally. As I noted, an interest rate reduction is under continuing discussion with our colleagues in Europe. Responsibility was given to Ministers for Finance to conclude the matter. Irish officials are in constant contact with their colleagues and counterparts to reach a conclusion as quickly as possible.
Sula leanfaidh mé ar aghaidh le mo cheist, ba mhaith liom comhghairdeas a dhéanamh leis na daoine a ghlac páirt sna Cluichí Oilimpeacha Speisialta. B'fhéidir go mbeadh an Taoiseach sásta comhgairdeas a dhéanamh, ar son na Dála, leis na daoine speisialta seo. Rinne siad jab iontach ar son na hÉireann. Before I ask my question, there is some good news. I am sure the Taoiseach and other parties will join me in congratulating the 126 Irish athletes who took part in Special Olympic Games. To bring back 107 medals is a fantastic achievement.
It is not good enough to issue an annual report. Sinn Féin has prepared a report on the Government's first 100 days in office which itemises 50 failures.
I have not seen that report.
The Government has broken promises made by Fine Gael and, ironically, has kept promises made by Fianna Fáil to pay big bankers and fund toxic banks, etc.
What promises did Sinn Féin keep when in government in the North?
Will the annual report include information on the U-turns made and failures to keep promises made in the programme for Government?
Aontaím leis an Teachta gur chóir dhéanamh leo siúd ar fad a ghlac páirt sna Cluichí Oilimpeacha Speisialta. Go mórmhór ó thaobh iad siúd a bhí in éineacht leo, ag tabhairt a gcuid ama go deonach gan airgead ar bith a fháil, agus a thaispeáin a suim pearsanta agus chlainne sna cluichí sin, I agree with Deputy Adams. Obviously, I have not seen the report the Deputy's party produced. I know he is a bit touchy about the commitments the Fianna Fáil Party might have entered into.
Clearly, the Taoiseach is not a bit touchy about them.
As I said in my initial reply——
We are familiar with his zeal to implement them.
As the various Ministers achieve their targets and objectives, in accordance with the remit that applies to each Department under the programme for Government, those items and matters will be posted publicly on the departmental websites. That is how it should be done. Obviously, later in the year we will have an opportunity to discuss the progress that is being achieved in terms of the programme for Government.
This is an important business. Our job is to try to keep the Government accountable. Will the process mentioned by the Taoiseach include the universal social charge, the water charges and the poverty taxes? We compiled our report after 100 days, which was before the revelations about the junior doctors. I invite the Taoiseach to support Sinn Féin's Private Members' motion this evening. Deputies who are present promised their constituents that acute accident and emergency services would be kept open.
Sinn Féin did the same thing in the North before the Assembly elections.
I invite them to support the Sinn Féin motion later this evening.
Sinn Féin cannot have it both ways.
Will the Taoiseach indicate whether he intends to do so?
Deputy Adams is learning very fast. He raised the Special Olympic Games, water metering, the universal social charge, junior doctors and his party's Private Members' motion in the context of a question that relates to the distribution of a formal review of the implementation of the programme for Government. I have already pointed out that every Minister will post these results — details of the extent to which the targets they set themselves, and are bound by under the programme for Government, are being achieved — on the website of his or her Department. The question of the universal social charge has been referred to by the Minister for Finance. The programme for Government commits the Government to reviewing the charge before the 2012 budget. The Minister for Finance has said it will be a very difficult budget. The medical and hospital situation will be discussed when the House considers the Sinn Féin Private Members' motion this evening. An amendment to that motion, setting out the Government's concerns, will be proposed by the Minister for Health. On the matter of metering, the question of the payment one will have to make in respect of one's usage of water after one's free allowance has been used is being and will be dealt with by the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government.
I would like to return to one of the other issues covered in the programme for Government. Perhaps the Taoiseach will refer to it in passing. Has the Minister undertaken an internal assessment of the impact the implementation of the legislation providing for the burning of junior bondholders would have on the Irish credit union movement and individual credit unions throughout the country? It is clear when one reflects on the impact of last Friday's decision, for example, that more transparency and clarity is needed in respect of this important matter. We need to consider the impact of such a decision on various credit unions throughout the country. The Taoiseach said the score card issue was a metaphor for something or other. I have to say it sounded great on "The Late Late Show".
I am glad the Deputy was impressed.
There was a sense that the Taoiseach intended to tackle all the Ministers and haul them in.
I am glad the Deputy watched it.
There was a suggestion that there would be a clear benchmark.
On your bikes.
He said that if these guys were not doing the business, he would deal with them. We have now been told it was a metaphor for something or other.
It is a bit like the Deputy himself.
I am really intrigued by this. We will have to go back over every interview the Taoiseach did, for example on "The Late Late Show" and with Matt Cooper, to work out what he was really saying, what he really meant and whether we can believe it. I am afraid that seems to be the story. Did this good soundbite come from some focus group?
The Deputy has been watching too much reality TV.
Was the Taoiseach told to keep talking about score cards——
All of them were yellow.
We heard about four or five point plans and all the rest of it.
Does the Deputy need a media analyst?
The fists were in the air and people were saying: "Let's get Ireland working again." It was great stuff.
I am glad the Deputy was listening.
It was great theatre, but that is all it seems to have been in terms of the actual beef and what has emerged since.
The Taoiseach is the most popular politician in the country.
Deputy Buttimer should have stayed in Killarney.
Deputy Martin is correct to say some bonds are held by some credit unions and by Irish Life & Permanent. The Minister for Finance is examining those matters where bonds are held by a small number of credit unions, and so on.
Would it be possible to share that with us?
Put down a question.
In good spirit, could the Minister share that information with the other Members of the House?
Put in a parliamentary question and get the answer.
Let the Taoiseach finish.
I am glad to see that Deputy Martin looks at "The Late Late Show". Let me be clear about this.
I was beginning to believe this transparency stuff.
The compilation of the report cards to which he referred is a metaphor for the bilateral meetings I have with each Minister about the Departments for which they have responsibility. It is about the political activities and the progress they are making in achieving the requirements of the programme for Government in so far as it relates to their Departments. I have had five or six of those bilateral meetings already and will continue to conclude them in the next fortnight. Thereafter I will have a clearer picture of progress and about the difficulties Ministers see ahead in respect of achieving other targets in so far as their Departments are concerned. As Deputy Martin will be aware, from an economic perspective the situation is challenging and that will require Ministers to focus on the priorities that can be delivered and to maintain services, and at the same time cut out waste and achieve more with less.
Will the Taoiseach publish those?
I call Deputy Boyd Barrett.
The Taoiseach will not publish them.
A Deputy
There will be one for everybody in the audience.
We will not get the report cards published for assimilation by the electorate.
We are really disappointed with that.
These are the requirements of the Taoiseach, that he should know about his Ministers.
I call Deputy Boyd Barrett please.
I am sure the Taoiseach will agree that one of the most pressing issues facing people is the massive unemployment crisis, the fact that close to half a million people are without work and many are leaving because there is no work. The programme for Government stated that job creation was central to any recovery strategy. Given that the public sector recruitment embargo means a slow grinding attrition of jobs, demand is being depressed in the economy because of cuts in income and pay and the bank recapitalisation means the loss of tens of thousands of jobs in the banking sector, where does the Taoiseach see his commitment to job creation in the programme for Government being realised? How will the Taoiseach create jobs as he committed to do in the programme for Government given that everything happening in terms of austerity is working in the opposite direction and is leading to a jobs massacre?
I did not hear any reports of Deputy Boyd Barrett travelling to all of the businesses in his constituency over the weekend advising that the new internship scheme had been launched last week, which will give opportunities for business to take on exceptionally qualified young graduates to give them a start in the sense of——
Indentured labour.
——allowing them the opportunity to forge a new career or be taken on by companies on a permanent basis.
Deputy Boyd Barrett will be aware that also on 1 July the jobs initiative decisions taken by Government to reduce VAT, to halve PRSI for employers and remove the travel tax kicked in. This is the first direct stimulus to the hospitality tourism sector and those labour intensive areas for job creation and to retain employment. He will also be aware that the pipeline of investment from outside the country remains exceptionally strong and that the work being done by the Government in terms of rebuilding Ireland's reputation continues strongly. The situation in so far as the 12.5% corporation tax rate being unchanged has been made clear and has drawn a strong response from international investors. The decision taken by the Government in respect of the banks allows for a serious extent of credit of €10 billion a year for each of the next three years following the de-leveraging of non-core assets by them. The challenge for us is to stimulate the demand for credit from indigenous industry and a demonstration from banks that it is happening. Certainly, that is a challenge. In my travels throughout the country in the past fortnight, I have encountered a number of small firms, especially in the engineering and software areas, in which there is the potential for an increase in employment and some are making that happen. We must accelerate that and make it clear that the credit now becoming available to banks will be lent under proper conditions and will be proven to be lent to businesses for a change of direction or an expansion of whatever it is they are involved in.
What targets does the Taoiseach have for net job creation?
From this perspective, the continued flexibility, increased productivity and output and the trade surplus in terms of our exports are running strongly. We must restore confidence to the indigenous economy and grow the capacity for small and medium enterprises. This requires credit being available and a demonstration that it can be proven to be lent. In addition, the Government is working on the production of a Bill which will give an insurance guarantee in respect of some credit to assist in that work, which I am sure will be of interest.
Croke Park Agreement
Micheál Martin
Question:5 Deputy Micheál Martin asked the Taoiseach his plans to meet with Croke Park implementation body and also public service trade unions. [17280/11]
Gerry Adams
Question:6 Deputy Gerry Adams asked the Taoiseach his plans to meet public sector trade unions or the Croke Park implementation body. [18453/11]
Joe Higgins
Question:7 Deputy Joe Higgins asked the Taoiseach if he will report on the Croke Park implementation body and any arrangements made to meet the leaders of the public sector trade unions. [18577/11]
I propose to take Questions Nos. 5 to 7, inclusive, together.
I met the chairman and members of the Croke Park implementation body, together with the Minister with responsibility for public expenditure and reform, Deputy Brendan Howlin, on 29 June. During the course of that meeting I heard their account of the progress being made and I conveyed my personal commitment to the most vigorous and ambitious implementation of the terms of the agreement, having regard to the major challenges which we face in ensuring the affordability and effectiveness of the public service. I met the public service union representatives who are members of the implementation body in this context. I have also met representatives of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions to discuss issues of mutual concern, including the importance of the public service reform agenda, and I addressed the biennial conference of the congress in Killarney yesterday, 4 July.
A fortnight ago the Taoiseach withdrew his election comments about the Croke Park agreement not being implemented, which I wish to acknowledge. It was not made clear from the Taoiseach's reply whether he sees himself as Head of Government having any role in driving this initiative and fostering a positive approach to public service reform. The Taoiseach has removed all the staff in his Department who would have had direct responsibility for this area to another Department. Will the Taoiseach take a personal role in driving this process?
Yes. I support the work of the Minister with responsibility for public expenditure and reform 100%. Having spoken to the Minister some weeks ago, I agreed it was important that I should meet the implementation body with him to express our confidence and appreciation of the efforts made by the implementation body and the constituent union members thereof in achieving significant change and success in respect of the first analysis of the Croke Park agreement.
I met the Irish Congress of Trade Unions, ICTU, in Government Buildings. When speaking to its representatives in Killarney yesterday, I reiterated that the Government is completely supportive of the implementation of the Croke Park agreement. We are keen to see the agreement implemented in full. As has been made clear by Minister after Minister, it is important that the process is accelerated to achieve the targets we need to achieve. Yesterday, I said to the ICTU members and to the congress that in so far as I am concerned as Taoiseach, where there is a visible commitment to making the changes necessary to implement the Croke Park agreement, they will have in me a person as Head of Government for which they will have parity of esteem and an open door in respect of any discussions, concerns or anxieties they may have. I put this to them openly.
This is a process whereby the implementation of the agreement is critical for the future well-being of the country. From this point of view, while social partnership does not exist as it did previously, there is a willingness and a commitment from Government to engage with the trade union sector and the public sector unions to discuss the further changes required in the Croke Park agreement. I assure them of the Government's commitment to respond in respect of the conditions that have been agreed and signed off.
While I take the view that it is important to adopt a constructive approach, does the Taoiseach consider the targets that have been met to be sufficient to meet the budgetary targets that clearly are required to be met in the next 12 months? In other words, has an assessment been made that the actual savings made will be sufficient to meet the overall deficit reduction challenge, given that the Taoiseach and the Tánaiste have ruled out tax increases and social welfare cuts? Will the savings be of the necessary magnitude to make up the shortfall to arrive at the deficit reduction target set for the budget to be announced next December? Does the Taoiseach agree that it is not a highly constructive approach for some members of the Government to lecture people about reform from the safety of newspaper articles and so on, rather than becoming more personally engaged in driving a reform programme across Departments?
The Deputy is aware that there is a comprehensive spending review taking place in all Departments. When it becomes available, the Ministers for Public Expenditure and Reform and Finance will reflect on the findings in the context of the preparations for the budget for 2012. As an analysis of the first review shows, there have been highly significant achievements to date in respect of the Croke Park agreement. However, acceleration of the process is necessary if the agreement is to be implemented in full, which is of such importance to the well-being of the country. As the Deputy is aware, the agreement was made between the previous Government and the trade unions in the public sector and, obviously, it is important that the Government, for its part, shows a willingness to work with the public sector to achieve the changes and objectives identified. Yesterday I wanted to reassure the Irish Congress of Trade Unions of the Government's full commitment to so doing in an all-island sense because, as the Deputy is aware, it is an all-Ireland body. The economic situation will not be transformed if we pretend to operate from individual sectors only. This is a requirement in respect of which there must be communication, dialogue, discussions and co-operation. The agreement is in situ and there is a strong belief it can be achieved in full. As I want this to happen, I seek an acceleration of the process by which it is to happen in line with the Government’s view in this regard and with the co-operation of and goodwill on the part of the trade unions concerned. For my part, I am willing to participate and co-operate in the discussions and discourse on how this is to be achieved because the agreement has been signed off on with set conditions.
The Taoiseach has spoken about the affordability and effectiveness of the public service, but I am sure he will agree that the real measure of successful reform within the public sector is the experience of citizens seeking to access public services. Citizens should have the right to access public services. They should have the right to access to education and health services. However, because of the policies of this and the previous Government, they do not have that right. It is not present as a fundamental entitlement and core value of the State. Given the austerity programme, of which he is now part, and the promise or threat of further cuts of €4 billion, does the Taoiseach accept that the situation can only get worse? Does he accept that it would be far better for the Government to face up to the major burden placed on citizens, rather than continuing with the shredding of public services?
The Taoiseach has stated social partnership will not continue in the way it has. An mbeidh sé ag cur próisis eile ina áit? An mbeidh an Dáil ábalta eolas a fháil ón Taoiseach anseo sa Teach faoin bpróiséas sin?
The Government is facing up to tackling the big burden. If we leave things as they are, they will only get worse. Deputy Adams is aware that there is a deficit of huge proportions which has to be dealt with. There is no point in running away from it. There is no point in turning one's back on it. There is no point in thinking that somebody will walk in next week and pay it off. The country and the people have to deal with the deficit and this is the reason the Government is facing up to tackling the big burden and the reason we have made changes in respect of the banks and we are trying to do something about serious situation even though constrained by the conditions of the IMF-EU bailout deal. On the other hand, we are carrying out a serious analysis of how public money is spent so that we can make decisions in the best interests of the people and the country in order to close that deficit.
Deputy Adams makes the point about citizens having the right to services and this is what the Government wants. However, this cannot be achieved without making these structural changes. I pointed out to the Irish Congress of Trade Unions yesterday that many of its members have shown absolute commitment to making serious change and many of them across the board have encountered a great deal of difficulty in making changes. It is clear that a significant number of public servants know that the arcane structures within which they work are not conducive to delivering the kind of efficient professional modern service to which the Deputy refers and this is what we must aim for. This has happened in other countries, notably in Finland, to which the Secretary General referred and in Canada and other countries. The cost of delivery of public sector services can be downsized without impacting upon the quality of the delivery of front line services. The Government recognises the scale of the challenge and this is the up front political challenge. We are tackling the big burden and when it becomes clear what programmes should go or which should be maintained or expanded, the Deputy will have ample opportunity to discuss them in the House.
This format does not allow a deep penetration and discussion about some of these issues and underlying it is a deeply important philosophical question about the core values of this State. There was a time when the great and the good judged this Republic by how many millionaires we had and people are still scandalised. Every day we hear about HSE and other State agency executives being given large hand-outs. If we are to judge public services by the fact that a child could not be flown to Britain to get a transplant or that people who live in certain parts of this State will not have access to accident and emergency departments and that from next Monday, 11 July, the Government will have closed down or withdrawn many of those accident and emergency services, this is the core issue. A society must be built around these fundamental issues. From the cradle to the grave, wraparound health services must be a fundamental core value of this society. If this Government were to pledge itself to work to this core value, then it would find that people would support the Government in a real way when it tries to measure out the pain we are told all of us must suffer. Only a certain section of people are suffering that type of pain.
In respect of young Maedhbh McGivern, the Minister for Health has apologised to the McGivern family for what happened. It should not have happened. As a parent I can only begin to estimate the trauma and the absolute consternation that applied. They had been waiting for the phone call for 11 months and when it came, the follow through was not possible. I too want to find out the exact sequence of what transpired from when the phone call was made from the hospital in the first instance. As soon as an accurate report becomes available, the Minister for Health will present it to the House because it is in everybody's interests, as Maedhbh's father said, that this should not happen again. I respect that people working in these sectors have a genuine commitment to seeing that things happen properly.
In terms of values our republic should be seen as the best place in which to raise a family and grow old with dignity and respect. The decisions of Government and the moneys paid by taxpayers provide services and opportunities through education and health whereby young people can have competence and confidence to stand on any stage in the world. They should have the opportunity to grow and develop; they should a sense of prosperity and achievement and have career opportunities here if that is what they want. That is what good government is about. Internationally, our country should be seen as a place of vibrancy, energy, initiative and endeavour where first class services apply. That, unfortunately, is not the case now and is why the Government has set out what we believe are the main targets in our programme for Government which has the potential to turn around the fortunes of the country and of our people.
These challenges will not be easily taken on, but they will be taken on because the Government is focused on bringing about a situation whereby we can understand that the values to which I referred can be achieved in an environment where political decisions are seen to be made strictly in the interests of our people and our country.
Will the Taoiseach admit that the Croke Park agreement is nothing more than a cover for crudely cutting thousands of jobs in the public sector despite an OECD report which shows the Irish public sector to be far more modest than those in many more successful countries in Europe? The end result is now being felt in the drastic cuts being proposed in education, in terms of schools, the health services and so on.
Can we have the truth rather than fine words about values which do not mean anything in the face of what has happened here? At the conference of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions the Taoiseach promised more privatisation and cuts. Yet, apparently some congress leaders are hankering after partnership again.
Why should ordinary workers be fooled again when for 20 years partnership was used as a cover under which bankers and developers profiteered outrageously on the backs of ordinary people, but when the crisis blew up the trade union leaders were unceremoniously kicked out in the rain by the Taoiseach's predecessor? The price of that criminal greed was placed entirely on the shoulders of working people. That is the net result of partnership. Why should workers have any illusions about this fraudulent process, given the circumstances in which we find ourselves?
I do not accept the Deputy's comment that this is crudely cutting public service jobs. The Croke Park agreement was signed off between the Government, the public sector and the trade unions. As I said to Congress, many public sector workers understand better than the Deputy or I the arcane structures they were happy to put up with and the manner in which they are constrained from using their initiative and creativity to play their part.
The Deputy is aware of the numbers to be down-sized in the programme for Government over the lifetime of the Government. He is also aware of the numbers who have accepted voluntary redundancy to date. It is not a case of fooling anybody. We live in a very real world and, as I said to Deputy Adams, if the situation is not dealt with it will only get worse. Ordinary workers tell me the Government's job is to sort this out in everybody's interests. The programme for Government is quite clear in being committed to the sale of non-strategic State assets to realise up to €2 billion over the lifetime of the Government, and then to be sold at an appropriate time and at appropriate rates. The Government will make its own decision on that matter in due course.
I also pointed out to the Congress of Trade Unions that there are serious opportunities to reform the way in which things are done. The Croke Park agreement contains many of those elements. As I told congress yesterday, in so far as the Government is concerned, we will work with the implementation body and the trade unions to see that the achievements signed on for become a reality.