Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 26 Oct 2011

Vol. 745 No. 1

Order of Business

The Taoiseach

It is proposed to take No. 12, motion re proposed approval by Dáil Éireann of the terms of the United Nations Convention against Corruption (back from committee); No. 12a, motion re statement of Estimates for the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission; No. 15, statements on European Council, Brussels; No. 4, Central Bank (Supervision and Enforcement) Bill 2011 — Second Stage (resumed); No. 5, Health (Provision of General Practitioner Services) Bill 2011 — Order for Second Stage and Second Stage; and No. 14, statements on the report by the interdepartmental working group on mortgage arrears (resumed) to be taken not later than the conclusion of Private Members' business and the order shall not resume thereafter.

It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that the Dáil shall sit later than 9 p.m. tonight and shall adjourn not later than 10 p.m.; Nos. 12 and 12a shall be decided without debate and any division demanded on No. 12a shall be taken forthwith; the proceedings on No. 15 shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion after 80 minutes and the following arrangements shall apply: the statements shall be made by the Taoiseach and by the main spokespersons for Fianna Fáil, Sinn Féin and the Technical Group, who shall be called upon in that order and who may share their time, which shall not exceed 15 minutes in each case, and a Minister or Minister of State shall take questions for a period not exceeding 20 minutes; and the Dáil on its rising today shall adjourn until 2 p.m. on Tuesday, 8 November 2011. Private Members' business shall be No. 27, motion re health services delivery (resumed), to conclude at 9 p.m. tonight, if not previously concluded.

An Ceann Comhairle

There are four proposals to be put to the House. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 4, that the Dáil should sit later than 9 p.m. agreed to? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with Nos. 12, motion re proposed approval by Dáil Éireann of the terms of the United Nations Convention against Corruption and No. 12a, motion re statement of Estimates for the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission agreed to?

Deputy Catherine Murphy

The proposal for dealing with No. 12a is not agreed to because——

An Ceann Comhairle

I am sorry. You may not speak.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

——no logistical provision has been made for the Technical Group. I know Standing Orders do not allow me to say this. That change is required. There is no point in my objecting to the proposal if I cannot say why. It is anti-democratic.

An Ceann Comhairle

Taoiseach, there is an objection to the proposal for dealing with No. 12a. Do you wish to respond?

The Taoiseach

What is the objection?

(Interruptions).

Deputy Catherine Murphy

There is no logistical provision for the Technical Group. My objection is regarding a logistical provision to allow the groups to function. There is no such provision and a political change is required. We believe a contingency should be included in the Houses of the Oireachtas Estimates.

An Ceann Comhairle

If a Deputy is out of order do not switch on the microphone.

Deputy Emmet Stagg

The Deputy should form a political party while she is at it.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I tried that.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the proposal for dealing with No. 12a without debate agreed to?

Deputy Catherine Murphy

It is not agreed.

Question put: "That the proposal for dealing with Nos. 12 and 12a be agreed to."

The Dáil divided: Tá, 99; Níl, 24.

Tá

• Bannon, James.
• Barry, Tom.
• Breen, Pat.
• Browne, John.
• Burton, Joan.
• Butler, Ray.
• Buttimer, Jerry.
• Calleary, Dara.
• Cannon, Ciarán.
• Carey, Joe.
• Coffey, Paudie.
• Collins, Áine.
• Collins, Niall.
• Conaghan, Michael.
• Conlan, Seán.
• Connaughton, Paul J.
• Corcoran Kennedy, Marcella.
• Costello, Joe.
• Cowen, Barry.
• Creed, Michael.
• Creighton, Lucinda.
• Daly, Jim.
• Deasy, John.
• Deenihan, Jimmy.
• Deering, Pat.
• Doherty, Regina.
• Donohoe, Paschal.
• Dowds, Robert.
• Doyle, Andrew.
• Durkan, Bernard J.
• English, Damien.
• Farrell, Alan.
• Feighan, Frank.
• Ferris, Anne.
• Fitzgerald, Frances.
• Fitzpatrick, Peter.
• Flanagan, Terence.
• Grealish, Noel.
• Griffin, Brendan.
• Hannigan, Dominic.
• Harrington, Noel.
• Harris, Simon.
• Hayes, Brian.
• Hayes, Tom.
• Heydon, Martin.
• Humphreys, Heather.
• Keating, Derek.
• Kehoe, Paul.
• Kelleher, Billy.
• Kenny, Enda.
• Kenny, Seán.
• Kitt, Michael P.
• Kyne, Seán.
• Lawlor, Anthony.
• Lyons, John.
• McConalogue, Charlie.
• McEntee, Shane.
• McFadden, Nicky.
• McGinley, Dinny.
• McGrath, Michael.
• McLoughlin, Tony.
• McNamara, Michael.
• Martin, Micheál.
• Mathews, Peter.
• Mitchell, Olivia.
• Mitchell O’Connor, Mary.
• Moynihan, Michael.
• Mulherin, Michelle.
• Nash, Gerald.
• Naughten, Denis.
• Neville, Dan.
• Ó Fearghaíl, Seán.
• Ó Ríordáin, Aodhán.
• O’Dea, Willie.
• O’Donnell, Kieran.
• O’Donovan, Patrick.
• O’Dowd, Fergus.
• O’Mahony, John.
• O’Reilly, Joe.
• O’Sullivan, Jan.
• Perry, John.
• Phelan, John Paul.
• Quinn, Ruairí.
• Rabbitte, Pat.
• Reilly, James.
• Ring, Michael.
• Ryan, Brendan.
• Shatter, Alan.
• Sherlock, Sean.
• Shortall, Róisín.
• Smith, Brendan.
• Stagg, Emmet.
• Stanton, David.
• Timmins, Billy.
• Troy, Robert.
• Twomey, Liam.
• Wall, Jack.
• Walsh, Brian.

Níl

• Adams, Gerry.
• Boyd Barrett, Richard.
• Collins, Joan.
• Crowe, Seán.
• Daly, Clare.
• Ellis, Dessie.
• Flanagan, Luke ‘Ming’.
• Fleming, Tom.
• Healy, Seamus.
• Healy-Rae, Michael.
• Mac Lochlainn, Pádraig.
• McDonald, Mary Lou.
• McGrath, Finian.
• McGrath, Mattie.
• McLellan, Sandra.
• Murphy, Catherine.
• Ó Caoláin, Caoimhghín.
• Ó Snodaigh, Aengus.
• O’Brien, Jonathan.
• O’Sullivan, Maureen.
• Pringle, Thomas.
• Ross, Shane.
• Tóibín, Peadar.
• Wallace, Mick.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies Emmet Stagg and Paul Kehoe; Níl, Deputies Aengus Ó Snodaigh and Catherine Murphy.

Question declared carried.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the proposal for dealing with No. 15, statements on the European Council, Brussels agreed to? Agreed. Is the proposal that the Dáil on its rising today shall adjourn until 2 p.m. on Tuesday, 8 November 2011 agreed?

Deputy Micheál Martin

It is not agreed.

Deputy Billy Kelleher

It is unbelievable.

Deputy Finian McGrath

We are against holidays.

Deputy Micheál Martin

If I may say so——

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputies, please.

Deputy Jerry Buttimer

Let Deputy Martin speak. Let the Punch and Judy show begin.

Deputy Micheál Martin

I find the proposal that the Dáil shall not sit next week extraordinary and incredible given the serious issues facing the eurozone.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

Deputy Micheál Martin

There is no question but that we are in the midst——

(Interruptions).

Deputy Micheál Martin

This is a democratic Chamber. Members should allow people to have their say, without this cynical heckling.

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

Could we please have a bit of order?

Deputy Micheál Martin

It is a moment of unparalleled crisis in Europe. Everybody across Europe and the world is talking about it. From all we have heard today, there are no great signs that Europe will solve it either at today's summit or this week and that it will come up with a half-hearted answer which will not be comprehensive or resolute enough. It is imminent and it is at a level similar to the 2008 collapse. It is that serious. Any serious economic analysis of what is happening in Europe confirms that reality.

What does this House propose? It proposes to take next week off in the aftermath of such a serious situation facing the eurozone——

An Ceann Comhairle

I thank the Deputy.

Deputy Micheál Martin

Normally, I would adopt a reasonable approach but I never accepted——

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

Can we have some order please?

Deputy Micheál Martin

I never accepted the bona fides of this Government when it spoke about Dáil reform, longer sittings and so on because all we have had is superficial and shallow change devoid of any substance. We have a few hours once a month on a Friday, even though we were told we would have Friday sittings. It is a joke and we should see it as such. It is not a serious attempt at reform.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is allowed a short——-

(Interruptions).

Deputy Micheál Martin

The proof of the pudding is in the eating and that is why this motion is before us. The Government did not believe a word of what it said about Dáil reform in advance of the general election and it does not believe it now. How it can propose this in the midst of potentially the worst crisis facing the European Union and the eurozone is beyond belief.

An Ceann Comhairle

I call Deputy Adams.

Deputy Gerry Adams

First of all——

Deputy Alan Shatter

Fianna Fáil could not save Ireland never mind Europe.

Deputy Micheál Martin

Does one genuflect in front of such a learned colleague?

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

I ask Deputy Martin to resume his seat.

(Interruptions).

Deputy Gerry Adams

The parties of the Deputies haranguing the suggestion that we meet next week consistently objected to these adjournments. I propose we meet on 1 November so that the Taoiseach can do his democratic duty by the people and by the Dáil and report on the European summit. It will also give us the opportunity to discuss the hand over of €700 million on 2 November and to stop that. Contrary to what the Taoiseach said that this is the responsibility of another Government, it is the responsibility of this Government so it is fair to the Dáil and it is democratic that we meet next Tuesday to deal with these two issues and to move on from there.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

I call Deputy Boyd Barrett on behalf of People before Profit.

(Interruptions).

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

I am glad the Government finds the current crisis in Europe so amusing.

Deputy Jerry Buttimer

We find Deputy Boyd Barrett amusing.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

I find Deputy Buttimer amusing as well.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Boyd Barrett should not mind the interruptions.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

Amusement is not the reason we are here. Given the severity of the crisis ripping through the eurozone and the serious uncertainty about the outcome of this crisis, the very least the people of this country are entitled to is that the Taoiseach would report back after the European Council meeting to discuss the outcome and the implications of it.

Given that even the Taoiseach has acknowledged in previous discussions on the possibility of a significant write-down of Greek debt that this might open up some opportunities for Irish debt to be written down, although that has not materialised——

An Ceann Comhairle

I thank Deputy Boyd Barrett. We are not having a debate.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

——we also deserve a proper report on the outcome in regard to that issue.

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Boyd Barrett should not mind the interruptions.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

The Greeks got a write-down because they resisted. We have got nothing because we kowtowed.

As we approach the budget, and ordinary people in this country are quaking in their boots at the prospect of further austerity measures, surely we deserve a proper debate before next Wednesday on the Taoiseach's plan to hand over almost €0.75 billion to the bondholders of Anglo Irish Bank when he does not have to. Can we at least have a proper debate next week before he makes that momentous decision in advance of a budget about which people are very fearful?

The Taoiseach

Deputy Martin spoke about this situation being incredible and quite extraordinary and said that it reminded him of the collapse in 2008.

Deputy Micheál Martin

I did not say that.

A Deputy

The Deputy did.

Deputy Micheál Martin

I said we were on the verge of a financial collapse like 2008.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Taoiseach should proceed without interruption.

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

The Taoiseach should proceed without interruption.

The Taoiseach

I am sure Deputy Martin shares my view that it is very necessary that the Oireachtas is able to find out what happened in the course of that crisis and why decisions were made in the way they were. I am glad Deputy Martin supports the call for a "Yes" vote in respect of parliamentary inquires being available to those elected by the people and who are accountable to the people, unlike in lots of other sectors.

Europe and the eurozone face the most serious crisis they have faced in a very long time.

Deputy Dara Calleary

And we are going on holidays.

The Taoiseach

The fundamental questions we are being asked to decide on Sunday are the question of Greece being let down, whether there is sufficient moneys in the €109 billion approved originally, how we leverage that under the European Financial Stability Facility and the facilities to do that and how one proceeds with governance. These are serious issues which will potentially have a serious impact on all the citizens of Europe, in particular those in the eurozone.

I have set out for the Members of the House a process by which we will lead up to the budget on 6 December, which has never been done before in the sense of openness and giving detailed——

Deputy Micheál Martin

Ráiméis.

The Taoiseach

As part of that process, I want Deputy Martin to understand that the Minister for Finance will be in Berlin on Wednesday, where there will be a meeting. I have called a Cabinet meeting for Tuesday to deal with the process we have set out in the run in to the budget. The Dáil will sit for 38 weeks until July next. However, I recognise that when I was on the opposite side of the House, I raised such matters. Therefore, the Dáil will meet at 10.30 a.m. next Wednesday and at 10.30 a.m. next Thursday for normal sittings and Deputy Martin will have his opportunity to have his say about everything.

A Deputy

Cancel your holiday, Micheál.

(Interruptions).

The Taoiseach

To be clear, the House will sit at 10.30 a.m. on Wednesday and not at 2.30 p.m. and we will not have the week off like we used to year after year when Deputy Martin's party was in Government.

An Ceann Comhairle

Do I take it the motion is withdrawn?

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

Will Deputy Martin please resume his seat?

Deputy Jerry Buttimer

The Opposition's bluff has been called.

Deputy Billy Kelleher

Those opposite are shell-shocked.

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

I take it that the motion is being withdrawn.

Deputy Pat Breen

Shock.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

You will have to do——

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

Could I have a bit of order, please?

Deputy Billy Kelleher

You will not be going to Killarney for the week.

An Ceann Comhairle

There is no debate.

Deputy Billy Kelleher

If I travel, will the Government give me a refund?

Deputy Pat Breen

Give the Irish people a refund.

Deputy Jerry Buttimer

The lads will have to shop around.

Deputy Gerry Adams

On a point of order——

The Taoiseach

Must I move the amendment?

An Ceann Comhairle

Yes.

Deputy Shane McEntee

Will the Deputies get the placards ready?

An Ceann Comhairle

The motion before the House is that the Dáil on its rising shall adjourn until 2 p.m. on Tuesday, 8 November. If the Taoiseach is changing that——

Deputy Mattie McGrath

U-turn.

The Taoiseach

——he should move that the Dáil shall sit at 10.30 a.m. next Wednesday.

(Interruptions).

Deputy Micheál Martin

On a point of order, could we hear what is going on, please? I cannot hear.

An Ceann Comhairle

Hold on a second. The House will be told in one minute. If people would only stay quiet, I could ask the Taoiseach to change the motion.

(Interruptions).

The Taoiseach

I propose an amendment to the motion, namely, that Dáil Éireann shall meet next Wednesday at 10.30 a.m. and next Thursday at 10.30 a.m.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

Did Deputy Martin hear that?

An Ceann Comhairle

Is that agreed?

Deputy Gerry Adams

No.

(Interruptions).

Deputy Gerry Adams

On a related matter, I cannot hear what is being said.

An Ceann Comhairle

At times I cannot hear either because everyone is shouting.

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

The Ceann Comhairle is pointing his finger in our direction, but he should be pointing it the other way.

(Interruptions).

Deputy Gerry Adams

I just wanted to make that point.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am trying to keep order. If people obey the Chair, we might get somewhere.

(Interruptions).

Deputy Gerry Adams

I propose that we meet on Tuesday, 1 November. It would give us the opportunity to discuss what the Government will do on Wednesday, as meeting on Wednesday would be too late.

Deputy Shane McEntee

The Deputy will not come in on Tuesday.

An Ceann Comhairle

We are not in the business of deciding when we meet. It is for the Government to table a motion on the Dáil's sittings.

Deputy Pat Breen

Hear, hear.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Adams objected to a motion on sitting on 8 November. That motion has been withdrawn and the Government is proposing that we meet at 10.30 a.m. next Wednesday and Thursday. Is that correct?

Deputy Paul Kehoe

Yes.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the motion agreed?

Deputy Gerry Adams

No.

An Ceann Comhairle

Therefore, I will now put the question.

Deputy James Bannon

"Caoimhghín, advise me quick."

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

Could I have some order? Honestly, the Deputies are not a crowd of schoolchildren. We are in a Parliament. Will Members please behave in a proper fashion?

Deputy Mattie McGrath

It is all that side.

An Ceann Comhairle

The proposal is that the Dáil shall meet at 10.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 2 November and at 10.30 a.m. on Thursday, 3 November.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

Make it Tuesday and Wednesday.

Deputy Luke ‘Ming’ Flanagan

Make it Friday.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the proposal agreed to?

Deputy Gerry Adams

No.

Question, "That the proposal that the Dáil shall meet at 10.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 2 November and at 10.30 a.m. on Thursday, 3 November", put and declared carried.

Deputy Lucinda Creighton

No man is an island.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

Could we meet on Sunday to compromise?