Order of Business

The Taoiseach

It is proposed to take No. 7, referral to joint committee of proposed recommendation by Dáil Éireann of appointment of members of the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission; No. 8, motion re referral to select sub-committee of proposed approval by Dáil Éireann of taxation agreements; No. 8a, motion re leave to introduce Supplementary Estimate [Vote 40]; No. 8b, motion re referral of Supplementary Estimate [Vote 40] to select sub-committee; and No. 20, Financial Motions by the Minister for Finance 2011, which shall be taken today at 3.45 p.m.

It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that the Dáil shall sit later than 9 p.m. and the motion for the general Financial Resolution shall be moved not later than midnight, whereupon the Dáil shall adjourn forthwith; Nos. 7, 8, 8a and, subject to the agreement of No. 8a, No. 8b, referral to select sub-committee, shall be decided without debate and any divisions demanded on Nos. 8a and 8b shall be taken forthwith; on the conclusion of 8b, the sitting shall be suspended until 3.45 p.m.; following the Budget Statement of the Minister for Finance, the following arrangements shall apply in relation to the proceedings on No. 20: the statements of the main spokespersons for Fianna Fáil and Sinn Féin shall not exceed 40 minutes in each case and the statements of not more than three spokespersons for the Technical Group shall not exceed 40 minutes in total, and following the statements the sitting shall be suspended for 30 minutes; and all divisions demanded on No. 20 shall be taken manually.

An Ceann Comhairle

There are five proposals before the House. Is the proposal that the Dáil shall sit later than 9 p.m. tonight and that the general Financial Resolution shall be moved not later than midnight, whereupon the Dáil shall adjourn forthwith agreed? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with Nos. 7, 8, 8a and 8b agreed? Agreed. Is the proposal relating to the suspension of sitting agreed? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 20 agreed? Agreed. Is the proposal that all divisions demanded on No. 20 shall be taken mutually agreed? Agreed.

Deputy Micheál Martin

The temporary agency workers directive came into force yesterday without any legislation having come before this House. Given the significant impact this directive will have on employment — the estimates in terms of its negative impact, in particular in the multinational sector, are serious — will the Taoiseach publish the regulatory impact assessment on it? Also, when will the legislation in this regard be brought before the House?

In terms of employment legislation, when can we expect the legislation to give effect to the reduction in the redundancy rebate from 60% to 15%? We can have all the debates we like about jobs but these two measures, which represent a significant cost on jobs into the future, demand serious debate in this House. Has the Government commissioned a paper or regulatory impact assessment in respect of both decisions and, if so, will the Taoiseach publish them and make them available to Members of the Opposition so that we can be more informed in terms of the debate that should happen?

When will the legislation on the directive and in respect of the reduction in the redundancy rebate come before the House?

The Taoiseach

The Deputy is aware of the background to this. I am disappointed it was not possible to get agreement among the social partners in this regard. I expect the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation will bring the Bill before Cabinet next week. Obviously, it will not now be published until after Christmas.

In regard to the reduction in the redundancy rebate, the reasons for this measure were outlined yesterday by the Ministers for Social Protection and Public Expenditure and Reform, including that this country is out of line with OECD countries in respect of that matter.

Deputy Micheál Martin

On the directive, this measure should have been passed in the House yesterday. It is extraordinary that Members do not have it. However, I asked about this matter previously because it was never discussed in the House at all and now it is law and it will have serious implications for jobs. Although Members constantly refer to jobs in the economy and in society but this directive could cost thousands of jobs. In Britain, it has been estimated it could have an impact——

An Ceann Comhairle

Sorry Deputy, we cannot discuss the issues.

Deputy Micheál Martin

——whereby 25% of certain agency jobs would be lost. This House never actually discussed the measure. I acknowledge there are different perspectives on it but the House has never debated it and it now is law.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is a debate promised in this regard?

Deputy Micheál Martin

This just shows how irrelevant this House is becoming——

An Ceann Comhairle

Sorry Deputy, you now are abusing the freedom I gave you. Please.

Deputy Micheál Martin

——and how detached from reality it is. While the Taoiseach has spoken a great deal about Dáil reform, it just does not happen.

The Taoiseach

Deputy Martin is aware this is not the fault of the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation.

Deputy Micheál Martin

It is.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

It is the Taoiseach's fault.

The Taoiseach

This was a matter in which social partnership had to give agreement.

Deputy Micheál Martin

Never mind social partnership. The point is that there should have been a debate in this House.

The Taoiseach

The Minister made himself available to assist in that work long before 5 December and was involved in this for quite some time.

Deputy Colm Keaveney

It is Frankfurt's way.

Deputy Dara Calleary

It is Jack O'Connor's way.

The Taoiseach

I regret it was not possible to reach agreement about a derogation definition.

Deputy Micheál Martin

My point is that Members have had no impact.

The Taoiseach

Consequently, that legislation will not be published until after Christmas.

An Ceann Comhairle

I call Deputy Adams.

Deputy Micheál Martin

Does the Taoiseach not think that Parliament's perspective on this dialogue would be valuable?

The Taoiseach

However, in this case Deputy Martin cannot blame the Minister, who made himself available in the hope that this matter will be resolved through social partnership.

An Ceann Comhairle

I call Deputy Adams.

Deputy Micheál Martin

Surely the Taoiseach accepts that Parliament's perspective on the issue would be valuable——

An Ceann Comhairle

I call Deputy Adams please.

Deputy Micheál Martin

——in the context of social dialogue.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Adams, please.

Deputy Micheál Martin

That is the point I am making. Surely it would be valuable if the Dáil——

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Martin, please.

Deputy Micheál Martin

——had its say and articulated its views. It might affect some of those who have taken decisions on it.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Martin, I have called Deputy Adams.

Deputy Micheál Martin

I appreciate that a Cheann Comhairle but it is a very serious issue.

Deputy Alan Shatter

Deputy Martin is performing the role of Mr. Angry Man.

Deputy Micheál Martin

Legislation has been passed on which Members had no impact.

An Ceann Comhairle

Can the Deputy not hear me? I call Deputy Adams.

Deputy Gerry Adams

I wish to raise two points. I understand the Government has received or will receive today the proposals of the President of the European Council for treaty change, which will be put to the summit to be held later this week. Will these proposals be shared with the Opposition? The Taoiseach also will be aware the French President and German Chancellor have made clear that they seek a new European Union treaty to centralise control of member states' budgets. Will time be allocated in the Dáil to debate these issues before the Taoiseach travels to the aforementioned summit? Will the Taoiseach take such an opportunity to outline his opposition to any further loss of Irish fiscal powers? Given the existence of a clear proposition for treaty change, will the Taoiseach commit to holding a referendum on that issue?

The Taoiseach

Members had a discussion in this House last week in advance of the Council meeting this weekend to enable them to give their views on the range of propositions being thrown around and discussed. It will not be possible to have another debate before the Council meeting on Friday. I have not yet seen President Van Rompuy's paper and I understand it will be circulated today. When one reads the background to the proposition from the German Chancellor and the French President, it is obvious the 27 member states and 17 members of the eurozone will have a range of views about that. On Sunday night, I made clear my view that the Government supports enforceable conditions and stronger governance for the European Union and the eurozone. This is in Ireland's interest and I have scheduled a meeting later tonight about the implications of what may be or is being presented by President Van Rompuy. On my return, Members will have a discussion next week on the outcome of the meeting.

An Ceann Comhairle

I call Deputy Donohoe.

Deputy Gerry Adams

A Cheann Comhairle——

An Ceann Comhairle

Sorry Deputy, we cannot debate this issue.

Deputy Gerry Adams

I am not asking for a debate. I simply note the Taoiseach avoided the question.

Deputy Billy Kelleher

He did not. That was the first time.

An Ceann Comhairle

What question?

Deputy Gerry Adams

It is a bit like Éamon de Valera and Michael Collins in that the Taoiseach will talk to Members on his return next week. I asked the Taoiseach whether he will share the Van Rompuy paper with the Opposition.

The Taoiseach

I have not seen the Van Rompuy paper and am unsure——

Deputy Micheál Martin

What? The Taoiseach has not seen it.

The Taoiseach

As I stand here, I am unsure——

Deputy Gerry Adams

The Tánaiste stated the Taoiseach would have it today.

Deputy Micheál Martin

The Taoiseach should have seen it.

The Taoiseach

I do not know whether the Van Rompuy paper has been circulated.

Deputy Micheál Martin

Of course he knows. The permanent representative in Brussels knows.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

There are none so blind as those who cannot see.

Deputy Gerry Adams

The Tánaiste stated——

The Taoiseach

The Deputy asked me a direct question on whether a debate would be held in the House before this weekend's Council meeting and I replied that there would not be time to so do.

Deputy Gerry Adams

Will the Taoiseach circulate the paper?

The Taoiseach

I hope that is a direct answer.

Deputy Micheál Martin

The permanent representative in Brussels will know and the Taoiseach should know what is in the paper.

An Ceann Comhairle

I call Deputy Donohoe.

Deputy Paschal Donohoe

On promised legislation, when will the Legal Services Regulation Bill be introduced to the House? Will the legislation on rent review be introduced to the House soon?

The Taoiseach

As the Deputy is aware, it is quite a complicated Bill. It is expected on 15 December approximately but I cannot be absolutely definite. A great deal of work is going on in respect of that Bill.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Legal Services Regulation Bill

The Taoiseach

Yes.

Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn

When will legislation to provide for the household charge that has been outlined come before Dáil?

The Taoiseach

I understand it is being taken in the Seanad this week.

Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn

When will it be before this House?

The Taoiseach

Maybe next week it will be taken in the Dáil.

Deputy Billy Kelleher

When the Minister, Deputy Howlin, spoke in the Dáil yesterday he said, as stated on page 39 of his presentation——

An Ceann Comhairle

We are not dealing with yesterday's business, we are dealing with promised legislation.

Deputy Billy Kelleher

I am just outlining that.

An Ceann Comhairle

Thank you.

Deputy Billy Kelleher

The Minister spoke of increased generation and collection of private income. Basically this amounts to a tax of up to €1,000——

An Ceann Comhairle

I know that but we do not deal with these matters on the Order of Business.

Deputy Billy Kelleher

——on private health insurance in the years ahead. The presentation states that inflation will be——

An Ceann Comhairle

We deal with promised legislation.

Deputy Billy Kelleher

Yes.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is there promised legislation on this area?

Deputy Billy Kelleher

When will legislation be introduced to abolish the existing system of designated private and public beds and to basically increase the cost of VHI premia per household by up to €1,000 per household next year?

An Ceann Comhairle

Is there promised legislation on this area?

Deputy Billy Kelleher

That will be the impact of this proposal. There has not been a squeak out of anybody in this context. There will be an €1,000 increase in private health insurance premia——

Deputy Colm Keaveney

Collocation.

Deputy Billy Kelleher

——per household. It will affect half the population.

The Taoiseach

The Deputy's figures are wildly exaggerated. The legislation will be ready next year.

Deputy Micheál Martin

When?

The Taoiseach

Next year.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

Yesterday the Minister, Deputy Howlin, also indicated a cut of €21 million for the National Transport Authority——

An Ceann Comhairle

We are not dealing with yesterday's business now.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

That will have a significant impact on the capacity of CIE to operate.

An Ceann Comhairle

What is the Deputy's question on promised legislation?

Deputy Timmy Dooley

It will also require an increase in fares for the hard-pressed public.

An Ceann Comhairle

What is the Deputy's question on legislation?

Deputy Timmy Dooley

I am getting to that.

An Ceann Comhairle

Please get to it straight away as ten other Deputies are offering.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

Will the Taoiseach bring forward the legislation on sustainable travel and transport, which is contained in a Bill, because it will not be sustainable for many people to pay increased fares? The Government is hitting people who travel to educational institutions——-

An Ceann Comhairle

Thank you, Deputy. I also want to accommodate the Deputy's colleagues.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

——and the hard-pressed working public who will not be able to pay increased fares.

The Taoiseach

It will be next year before that legislation comes in.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

This year?

The Taoiseach

No, not this year.

Deputy Aodhán Ó Ríordáin

On two proposals that were made outside this House, when will the proposed legislation on mandatory reporting of child abuse come before the House? On the question of two referenda, one on the future of the Seanad and the other on children's rights, will those two referenda take place outside the remit of the proposed constitutional convention?

The Taoiseach

There is quite a deal of work going on in respect of the heads of that Bill. I had the opportunity to visit the Department and staff during the course of the week. It will be spring time, I assume, before that Bill is concluded.

Deputy Joan Collins

Two weeks ago Deputy Daly and I asked a question on when the expert group on the ABC v. Ireland judgment would be set up. I understand the European Court of Human Rights instructed the Government to set it up before the end of November. Unfortunately, the Taoiseach’s reply in writing is as vague as his replies to many Members in the Chamber. It does not state when it will be set up and I would like to know when it will be set up.

The Taoiseach

The Minister for Health was given approval to set up the expert committee. When it is set up, it will have six months to report to Government arising from the case the Deputy mentioned. The Minister will obviously make an announcement as soon as he has appropriate people to do the work on that committee. I do not expect it will be too long.

Deputy Jim Daly

Does the Taoiseach have any indication as to when the mental capacity Bill might be brought before the House and can priority be given to its introduction in the House?

The Taoiseach

That will happen early next year, as quite a deal of work has been done on it.

Deputy Barry Cowen

With regard to the Social Welfare Bill that will be taken on Thursday, will the Taoiseach give enough time for us debate the specific details of the savage cuts that have been proposed which have an obvious bias towards families——

An Ceann Comhairle

Thank you, Deputy.

Deputy Barry Cowen

——women, the disabled and even rural Ireland? Will he give sufficient time for us to go into the great detail that is required to debate these properly and allow people to vote accordingly?

The Taoiseach

I expect that will be the case. The House will sit late on Thursday and all day Friday to deal with that matter.

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

Tara Mines pensioners will suffer a 10% reduction in their pensions from 1 January. Will any elements of the upcoming finance Bill or other budgetary Bills safeguard those pensions in future?

The Taoiseach

I advise the Deputy to wait until he hears the statement from the Minister for Finance later this afternoon. As I said to Deputy Martin in response to a number of questions, the Tara Mines workers, whom I met, have a particular case and the story might not be as clear as that which has often been put out. He made the case that the situation with regard to deductions from pensioners was a matter for the trustees here and some applied it without reducing their own cost levels in the first instance. It is a matter in which I am taking an interest.

Deputy Micheál Martin

You put it into legislation.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

Will the Taoiseach allow enough time to discuss the Water Services (Amendment) Bill and remove the guillotine from this wide-ranging and sweeping legislation which discriminates against rural dwellers? I call for enough time to discuss it. The Taoiseach is a rural dweller himself as is his colleague.

An Ceann Comhairle

The time element is a matter for the Whips.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

I know that but I ask for enough time to deal with it, examine it and table and discuss amendments.

The Taoiseach

Deputy McGrath can turn off the tap for the moment.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

Níor chuala mé sin.

The Taoiseach

Níor chuala an Teachta mé. Beidh sé roimh an choiste Dé Máirt seo chugainn, tiocfaidh sé isteach anseo ina dhiaidh agus beidh neart ama leis an rud sin a phlé, is féidir bheith cinnte faoi sin.

Deputy Micheál Martin

You have guillotined many Bills in the past three weeks.

Deputy Robert Troy

With regard to the lack of credit available to small and medium enterprises, when is the long-promised Bill on the partial loan guarantee scheme for small businesses coming before the House? We were promised it would be during this session but there is still no sign of it.

The Taoiseach

The heads of the Bill have been approved by Cabinet and I expect Ministers to have it drafted and working in the first quarter of 2012.

Deputy Brendan Smith

What is the up-to-date position on the proposed education and training boards Bill?

Is the Taoiseach aware of the very serious concerns in the vast majority of second level schools about yesterday's decision to dismantle the vital career guidance counselling services at a time when young people need this help and support? This decision will also mean a reduction in subject choice at second level and will increase the pupil-teacher ratio.

An Ceann Comhairle

That was a nice statement you made.

The Taoiseach

I send my condolences to Deputy Smith.

The position in so far as career guidance teachers are concerned is that the Minister for Education and Skills made it clear he wants to devolve responsibility to schools and school principals to get the best opportunity for their staff to teach. Career guidance was always outside of this and it is now the new responsibility of schools to make their choices as to what they want to do. I do not have a date for the introduction of the Bill but it will be next year.

Deputy Micheál Martin

Come off it and stop the language. It is a cut. Stop masking it.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

So much for creating jobs. Getting rid of career guidance teachers will not do.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

The national vetting bureau Bill is regarded as important legislation for the protection of children. To what extent has the Bill progressed and when is it likely to come before the House?

The companies Bill is a consolidation Bill and is very intricate. It is also seriously needed at present, and was needed over the past ten years. If the amendments had been in place the country would not be in the position it is now.

The Taoiseach

The Minister expected publication of the national vetting bureau Bill by the end of the year but quite an amount of correspondence between a number of Departments has yet to be dealt with so it will not happen by then. The companies Bill will be taken in the middle of next year, as I indicated.

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

In light of the publication last week by the National Board for Safeguarding Children of a report into dioceses will the Taoiseach agree to a Dáil debate in the new year——

An Ceann Comhairle

That is a matter for the Whips.

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

When will the HSE audit on child protection practices in the dioceses be published and laid before the Dáil? To follow up on the question asked by Deputy Ó Ríordáin on the upcoming referendums on children's rights and the Seanad, to which the Taoiseach did not respond, when is it intended to run these and will they be run separately?

The Taoiseach

In respect of the diocesan reports the Minister has no objection to them being discussed in the new year.

An Ceann Comhairle

It is a matter for the Whips.

The Taoiseach

With regard to the children's rights referendum as the Deputy is well aware it is quite complex and the children's advocacy groups are working with the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs to see whether we can arrive at agreement on the best wording to put before the people. This is outside of the proposal for any constitutional convention. I cannot give a time for it without a wording because a process must be gone through, of which I am very aware following the confusion that arose because of the proximity of time between the commission and the Bills for the previous two referenda.

We need a discussion, if not in the Chamber than at committee, about the process and timing of calling referendums, whether more than one is held at the same time and the reasons for this. A certain level of vote must be cast for it to be eligible and there is the balance to be considered between holding an important referendum such as the one on children's rights on its own or together with another important referendum such as that on the Seanad, or on another issue such as patents that may arise outside here. I understand the Bill on the children's rights referendum is being examined by the Attorney General and when we have clarity on it we will decide on when best to hold it.

Dáil Éireann debate - Tuesday, 6 Dec 2011

Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 6 Dec 2011