Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 11 Oct 2022

Vol. 1027 No. 4

Saincheisteanna Tráthúla - Topical Issue Debate

Schools Building Projects

Deputy Emer Higgins

I thank the Minister for taking this Topical Issue at this late hour. It concerns the need to progress the delivery of new school buildings for schools in my constituency. Dublin Mid-West is a thriving and rapidly growing area that includes communities such as Lucan, Clondalkin and Palmerstown, and the communities and villages of Rathcoole, Newcastle, Saggart and Brittas.

The need for capacity in our schools has simply never been greater, in particular at post-primary level. Far too often I am contacted by panicked parents who cannot find somewhere for their children to go to secondary school or by exasperated principals who have been waiting decades for the promised extension for their school community. These are people who are fed up of waiting patiently. They are tired of being the bad guys and having to tell parents the school cannot accept their children as students. As a result, in many cases parents are having to send their children out of the county to schools in Kildare to find a school place. They are having to travel long distances to and from school every day, relying on bus services that are flawed at best and non-existent at worst.

While the lack of capacity and the long delays in delivering school buildings is massively frustrating for both parents and students who cannot find school places, it is equally impactful on students and staff in situ, who are packed like sardines into cramped classrooms that are no longer fit for purpose. To be honest, it is shameful that in 2022 all of our students do not have equality when it comes to access to education. That is the reality. Some schools do not have a physical education, PE, hall, woodwork room or home economics room because, instead of being in a promised new building, they are left to languish on a waiting list in Marlborough Street or Tullamore.

Let us talk about examples. Lucan Community College applied for a new school building in 2009. The project proceeded to tender but, 13 years later, those in the school are still waiting. Griffeen Community College had its planning application approved in February this year, but eight months later, the project still has not even gone to tender. Griffeen has been accommodated in Kishoge since it opened. Why do we even open schools when we do not have buildings for them? Should that not be the first step?

Holy Family Community School in Rathcoole has been trying to get a new building since I was a student there, which was neither today nor yesterday. The school has more than 900 pupils who are now mostly accommodated in temporary prefabs. In September last year, the school received 280 applications for enrolment but could only accept 180. Its outdated building cannot accommodate students with physical disabilities. That is another reason the school urgently needs a building.

In the next village over, Saggart, is Coláiste Pobail Fóla. It is only a stone's throw from Citywest, where a large number of Ukrainians are being accommodated. That school is having to turn away a lot of those children because it does not have extra capacity.

We know housing is the biggest challenge facing this Government and areas such as mine are playing a role in resolving the crisis. More homes are being built and more estates are popping up, but they need to be met with amenities, infrastructure and adequate capacity for our schools. Across the board in my constituency, school building projects are languishing at tender stage with no sign of movement and no ground being broken. That must change.

I am asking the Minister to expedite the tender process to get boots on the ground in our schools and to start building across Dublin Mid-West. The delivery of a new school building is a welcome event for communities. It generates hope and excitement. The Minister saw that first-hand just last month at the opening of Stewarts School in Lucan. In Dublin Mid-West, we have many school communities in desperate need of the hope and excitement new school buildings would bring.

Minister for Education (Deputy Norma Foley)

I thank the Deputy for raising the matter. It gives me the opportunity to set out for the House the position with regard to the delivery of school building projects under the national development plan in Dublin Mid-West. To plan for school provision and analyse the relevant demographic data, my Department divides the country into 314 school planning areas and uses a geographical information system using data from a range of sources to identify where the pressure for school places throughout the country will arise. With this information, the Department carries out nationwide demographic exercises to determine where additional school accommodation is needed at primary and post-primary level. Where the demographic data indicate additional provision is required, the delivery of such additional provision is dependent on the particular circumstances of each case and may be provided through using existing unused capacity within a school or schools, extending the capacity of a school or schools, or the provision of a new school or schools. The requirement for additional school places is kept under ongoing review.

The Deputy will be aware that, following analysis of demographics and planned residential development, a new primary school was announced to serve the Clondalkin school planning area. My Department is monitoring the pace of residential development and population growth in that area with a view to determining the appropriate timing for the establishment of this new school. Under Project 2040, the education sector will receive a total of approximately €4.4 billion in capital investment over the period 2021 to 2025. This significant investment allows us to move forward with certainty in our ambitious plans and deliver high-quality building projects with a real focus on sustainability for school communities throughout Ireland. This investment will build on the good progress being made in adding capacity to cater for demographic changes and provision for children with special educational needs. The investment will also facilitate an increased focus on the modernisation of existing school stock.

The Department has a large pipeline of projects for delivery under the school building programme. The main elements in this pipeline currently involve in excess of 1,300 school building projects for delivery under the Department's large-scale and additional accommodation scheme. These projects are in progress across the various stages of planning, design, tender and construction. Most are expected to be either under construction or completed in the period to 2025. A list of all completed and ongoing capital projects under the large-scale and additional accommodation scheme in county order from 2010 to date may be viewed on the Department's website.

As can be seen from the list on the website, a significant number of school building projects are under way or have been completed across the Dublin Mid-West area, with 30 large-scale and additional school accommodation scheme projects currently across various stages of planning and delivery. I note the Deputy referenced a school that has been waiting for additional accommodation since 2009. I have been Minister for two years. I will give the Deputy the update on my term as Minister. A large-scale project at the Clondalkin schools campus is currently at tender stage. This will provide new 16-classroom school buildings for Gaelscoil Chluain Dolcáin and Gaelscoil na Camóige, as well as enhanced facilities for Coláiste Chillian. While there have been some challenges, this joint major project is anticipated to be on site in quarter 2 of 2023, subject to planning and tendering processes, as is always the case. The Department is also delivering a new 1,000-pupil post-primary school building for Holy Family Community School, Rathcoole, which is expected to commence construction in quarter 1 of 2023. A project at Griffeen Community College, Lucan, which the Deputy mentioned, is expected to proceed to tender later this year. A project at Coláiste Pobail Fóla at Citywest is also expected to proceed to tender later this year.

The Citywest campus project also includes a new 16-classroom primary school for Gaelscoil Lir. New 24-classroom primary school buildings are being provided for Scoil Áine Naofa and St. Thomas's National School, Lucan, as part of my Department's ADAPT 3 building programme, and the programme's project manager will shortly be commencing the process to appoint a design team for the project. Large-scale extensions at Divine Mercy junior and senior schools, Lucan, are currently at detailed design stage. A significant extension at St. Joseph's College, Lucan, is at construction. An extension at Lucan Community College was recently authorised to proceed to tender for the appointment of a building contractor.

Recently completed projects include a new 28-classroom school for Stewarts Hospital Special School, as the Deputy referenced, and a new 16-classroom primary school for Citywest Educate Together National School and Citywest and Saggart Community National School.

Deputy Emer Higgins

I thank the Minister for that response and those helpful updates. Her commitment to delivering for students in Dublin Mid-West is welcome and we all hope those tenders and construction projects go according to plan.

I will take the opportunity to put on the record the primary schools in my area that are also due new buildings. Those include Scoil Chrónáin in Rathcoole; St. Thomas's and Scoil Áine Naofa in Lucan, which are part of the ADAPT programme to accelerate delivery; Divine Mercy junior and senior in Balgaddy; the Gaelscoil Chluain Dolcáin and Gaelscoil na Camóige campus, which will also deliver a PE hall for Coláiste Chillian; and Rathcoole Educate Together, another school open without a permanent building.

I cannot stress enough that speeding up the tender process would be transformative for many of the school building projects in my constituency. This seems to be the stage at which things grind to a halt. That needs to be addressed immediately if we are to turn things around for schools such as Holy Family Community School, Lucan Community College, Griffeen Community College and Coláiste Pobail Fóla.

On a positive note, St. Joseph's College in Lucan broke ground on its new school building three weeks ago, as the Minister noted. It was a long time coming but I was delighted to be there to celebrate the occasion with the principal, Ms Fitzgerald, and the wider school community. I cannot wait to be there for the grand opening when construction is complete. Seeing that work finally start has given the school a new lease of life and an excitement and hope for the future. That sense of excitement and hope for the future is what I want for all of the schools in my constituency. I know the Minister wants that too. I ask her to do everything in her power to deliver our new school buildings as quickly as possible because schools in Dublin Mid-West cannot wait much longer.

Deputy Norma Foley

I appreciate the Deputy's particular interest in all matters related to education. I acknowledge a fairly significant commitment in that there are more than 30 large-scale and additional school accommodation scheme projects currently at various stages of planning and delivery for the Dublin Mid-West area. That is a positive story to present this evening. I have taken the opportunity to reference so many of them, in particular, the Clondalkin school campus, which is at tender stage. Other projects are at various stages. The Deputy referenced many of them, including Holy Family Community School, which will be a 1,000 pupil post-primary school that is expected to commence construction in 2023. She also noted the positive news for St. Joseph's, for example, and the breaking of ground. I know how important that visual, on-the-ground progress is. We also specifically referenced the expectation of proceeding to tender for Griffeen Community College, which will take place later this year. Coláiste Pobail Fóla will also go to tender this year. The Citywest campus project the Deputy referred to is significant and is part of the ADAPT 3 building programme. The project manager has now proceeded to appoint a design team for that project.

This is a significant investment by the Department and a major acknowledgement of the facilities that are required in the area, notwithstanding that schools are doing tremendous work with the facilities they currently have. We have an ambition to support them in moving forward with the facilities they might require for the future. It is comprehensive and very much an acknowledgement of the excellent work that is ongoing in the delivery of education that we are matching it with the provision of appropriate school buildings.

Housing Policy

Deputy Matt Carthy

This Topical Issue matter deals specifically with the issue of the income limits in place for social housing applicants. Many people are surprised to learn that social housing income limits are a relatively new concept. They were introduced, to its shame, by a Labour Party Minister after the financial crash. In my view, and I have yet to be corrected on this, they were introduced with a single purpose, namely, to reduce the number of people on local authority housing lists without having to go to the bother of actually providing them with homes.

Previously, in order to be allocated a council house, applicants were awarded points that considered pertinent facts, such as the length of time waiting and current living conditions, taking into account issues such as overcrowding or medical needs. Income was also a factor in determining how high on the list an applicant would be. Since the introduction of the limits, however, income has become not a consideration but a mechanism to prevent people from getting on the housing list at all. The limits have become symbolic of a cruel housing policy enthusiastically embraced by this Government. The fact that the limits have not been amended, apart from some minor exceptions, for more than a decade tells its own story.

I have previously told the House of some of the outworkings of this policy, such as the young single parent working in a low-paid job. She is currently living in her parents' home sharing a boxroom with her child and was provisionally offered a house last month. Her joy can be imagined but after she completed the paperwork she was informed that she exceeded the income limit by €1,500 a year or €28 a week. The offer of housing was withdrawn and, worse than that, she has now been removed from the housing list entirely meaning that should she reapply if her income reduces, she will go to the back of the queue. I have also told of numerous couples who have been removed from the housing list because one of them got a job. It is essentially that. In the county in which I live, Monaghan, a couple with two children cannot apply for social housing support if their earnings are more than €27,500 per annum.

Not satisfied with this cruel policy, the Department has changed its position and now dictates that it has to be implemented as harshly as possible. Income is considered across a 12-month period meaning a little summer overtime can result in removal from the housing list. The Minister committed to a review last autumn. He has received that review but rather than proceeding to change the income limits the issue has been kicked off to the Housing Agency, which has been asked to scope and develop options for a revised or new housing income eligibility model. It stands in stark contrast to the actions of the Government if it was told of a particular issue that was affecting an industry or a valued vested interest in the eyes of the Government. As this is affecting people at the coalface who are bearing the brunt of the Government's housing failures, it is delay after delay. I do not yet have any sense that anyone in the Government realises the absolute devastation these income limits are causing countless thousands of individuals and families. I hope the Minister of State can tell me that this scandal is about to end.

Minister of State at the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage (Deputy Malcolm Noonan)

Ba mhaith liom buíochas a ghabháil leis an Teachta as an gceist seo. The overarching principle of social housing support is to provide adequate housing support to those households unable to provide accommodation from their own resources. Applications for such supports are assessed by local authorities in accordance with eligibility and need criteria as set down in the Housing (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009 and the associated social housing assessment regulations. The regulations introduced a standard system for assessing applicants for social housing support in 2011 and established a fairer, more consistent and transparent approach to determining eligibility for support.

Deputy Matt Carthy

We need to set some things out in order to avoid any confusion. Social housing tenants pay rent in direct proportion to their income. Despite the impression that is sometimes given of free houses, there is no incentive for wealthy people to apply for a council house because they will probably pay more rent than they would in the private sector and certainly more than they would for a mortgage. As they currently stand, income limits are simply preventing people who will never qualify for a mortgage from accessing the alternative means of securing a permanent home.

The Minister of State talked about the cost to the State of providing social housing. Therein lies a cultural issue that goes to the very heart of the Custom House, which is this notion that people are getting charity when they are allocated a council house.

They pay rent in direct proportion to their income. When done right there is no cost to the State. There is a substantial saving to the State because this year the geniuses who wrote this reply for the Minister are standing over the expenditure of more than €1 billion in private subsidies to landlords in order to cover up the debacle that has led to the overall housing crisis we have. The income limits are a small part but they are a cruel, harsh aspect of this policy in action. They are part of an overall policy that has led to the ghettoisation and demonisation of those who find themselves in need of housing support. The Minister of State referred to a scoping exercise which is to be completed by the end of this year. Will he give a commitment that action will be taken on that this year and there will be no further delays?

Deputy Malcolm Noonan

I agree wholeheartedly with Deputy Carthy in the sense that there is a cost to the Exchequer. It is an outlay and an investment by the Exchequer in the provision of social housing. The Government has committed to and is front-loading record investment in social, affordable and cost-rental housing, more than any Government has provided in the history of the State. The Minister is deeply committed to that through Housing for All.

I fully agree that social housing is not charity. Families pay rent. It has been a very good model. The provision of social housing certainly declined in previous years and the State is playing catch-up and doing so at scale. It is critically important that this Government and Governments in the coming decades continue to invest in social and affordable housing.

The Minister has stated several times previously that he is committed to implementing these changes once the Housing Agency's scoping report and review have been completed. We recognise that the current models do not work and are not reflective of modern incomes and the modern needs of families. There is a commitment by the Minister and we will continue with the investment in social housing in particular. The State has done this very well through the decades. The phase we are implementing through Housing for All is a new one comparable with what happened in the 1940s and 1950s. We can do this at scale and it is critically important that we do. I give the Deputy a commitment, on behalf of the Minister, that this will be implemented.

An Garda Síochána

Deputy Mattie McGrath

I thank the Minister for Education for attending but I am disappointed the Minister for Justice is not here. I know it is late but it is not good enough that she is not prepared to take this Topical Issue matter. I attended a meeting last Thursday night in Moyle Rovers GAA Club, Clonmel. I thank the caretaker, Mr. O'Connor. More than 500 people came from far and near in fear and trepidation. Many of these wonderful people provided a community centre and provide for their families and community in the excellent parish of Powerstown Lisronagh and the town of Clonmel and beyond.

We have an appalling lack of gardaí in Clonmel. It is historic. To give a comparison with Kilkenny, on any given day or shift, there would be 12 or at least ten gardaí in Kilkenny whereas we have four, five or six in Clonmel. It is the same in Wexford town and Thurles up the road from us, which have plenty of gardaí. We do not have the numbers in Clonmel Garda station, which covers Carrick-on-Suir, Fethard, Mullinahone and other areas. Cahir is suffering badly as well.

I will challenge one thing tonight. The meeting was attended by Superintendent Willie Leahy, Sergeant Kieran O'Regan and other gardaí who were off duty and live in the area. We heard loud and clear that many people are being intimidated by roving gangs under the auspices of lamping and hunting, both of which are illegal. They are doing awful damage, frightening livestock and householders, damaging wire, waterpipes, land and property and injuring cattle. People telephoning the Garda station last week were told that the incidents were not being reported. There is something badly wrong. This is the nub of my question tonight. I believe the figures for the numbers of complaints to An Garda Síochána both nationally and locally are being manicured. We have a joint policing committee, JPC, meeting on Friday at which I hope to explore this matter further with Chief Superintendent Derek Smart who is very amenable, in fairness. Superintendent Leahy will also be at the meeting. The crime statistics being rolled out show they are down here and there. The Garda numbers are appallingly low. I am shocked that there are only 20 - fiche - gardaí in Templemore. I am shocked that there were not enough applications to fill the last vacancy. This is a worrying situation. Why is that? It is because the Garda is not being resourced.

I put it to the Garda Commissioner, and lay it at his door again tonight, that he is putting Garda lives in danger by not giving them enough backup and support. I do not say that lightly. It is shocking to expect a single garda, male or female, to be out alone at 3 a.m. or 4 a.m. in rural areas or in a town. We have huge problems in Clonmel, a fine midland town that used to be the biggest in the country with great people, but drugs and all kinds of anti-social behaviour are taking over in the middle of the day, not to mention at night. Gardaí are in danger of losing these areas. Carrick-on-Suir is the same way, with an appalling lack of numbers. People ring the Garda station and are not getting responses. I am not blaming the gardaí on duty; they are doing their best. They do not have the numbers, support or backup.

We need an emergency task force to be set up to deal with the situation in the Clonmel and Carrick-on-Suir district. It needs to be sent in from Dublin or wherever to deal with this problem and strike it out. We also have to deal with the legal eagles in the courts where free legal aid is provided 50, 60 or 100 times. It must be three strikes and you are out. Tagging legislation was passed by this House. I do not know if anybody has ever been tagged. Tagging is not likely for people with several convictions. They should be tagged to determine where they are and to be able to trace their whereabouts.

We see heinous crimes committed by people out on bail and not on remand. We see the revolving doors. It is totally unacceptable for decent people who pay their taxes and deserve the protection of the law. They pay for community and text alert schemes out of their own pockets. The people are willing. No police force in the world can police without the support of the people. The Garda has the support of the people or will have it, but there needs to be a quid pro quo and the Garda needs to have resources and the numbers to help when it is needed.

Deputy Norma Foley

I thank Deputy McGrath for raising the issue. I am responding on behalf of the Minister for Justice, Deputy McEntee.

The Deputy will appreciate that under section 26 of the Garda Síochána Act 2005, as amended, the Garda Commissioner is responsible for the management and administration of Garda business, which includes the allocation of Garda resources. The Minister for Justice has no statutory role in regard to these operational policing matters. The Minister is assured that Garda management keeps the distribution of resources under continual review in the context of policing priorities and crime trends to ensure their optimal use. I understand it is a matter for the divisional chief superintendent to determine the optimal distribution of duties among the personnel available to him or her, having regard to the profile of each area within the division.

The Department of Justice is committed to ensuring that An Garda Síochána has the resources it needs to perform its critical role in the community. In budget 2023 an unprecedented €2.14 billion was allocated to An Garda Síochána, representing an increase of €78 million on 2022. This includes provision for the recruitment of 1,000 new gardaí and more than 400 Garda staff. I am informed that as of 31 August 2022, there were 399 Garda members assigned to the Tipperary division. Clonmel district is comprised of five stations with 76 Garda members assigned to it. This represents an increase of more than 4% since the end of December 2019. The district is supported by 17 Garda staff assigned to Clonmel station as of the end of August this year.

The Government has committed to building a new Garda station in Clonmel as part of the justice sector private-public partnership. This is being done alongside a proposed new station in Macroom, County Cork, and a family law complex at Hammond Lane, Dublin 7. Planning permission was granted for the new station in 2021. The Department continues to engage with An Garda Síochána, the Office of Public Works and the National Development Finance Agency with a view to progressing the project.

The construction of the new Garda station in Clonmel is an important development for policing in the area. Once completed the station will provide a modern, fit-for-purpose facility for Garda members and staff as well as the public interacting with gardaí. The Deputy may be aware that the Garda Commissioner is continuing the roll-out of the new Garda operating model. The operating model is designed to make each division the central unit of policing administration rather than the current smaller district model and will provide more front-line gardaí, increased Garda visibility and a wider range of policing services for local areas.

In the period 2017 to 31 August 2022, 875.5 Garda members were reassigned to operational roles under the Garda reassignment initiative, and a further 306 posts were identified as suitable for civilianisation and redeployment in line with the programme for Government commitment to boost the redeployment of Garda members from non-core duties to front-line duties for the benefit of communities across the country, including that of Clonmel.

The Minister is conscious of the particular crime concerns facing rural communities. The publication just last month of Rural Safety Plan 2022–2024 by the Minister of State, Deputy James Browne, seeks to address these and provide support information to rural communities. The plan is available at www.gov.ie/justice.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

That is a shocking reply. The Minister for Justice needs to take heed. She is accountable to this House. I am sick and tired of Ministers coming in here to refer to the Garda Commissioner, head of the HSE and all these people. They are not elected or accountable to the people. We are supposed to have a Government here. We are celebrating 100 years of our freedom, having set up our Republic. The response is shocking. The Minister for Education can read out all the figures she likes. What about retirements? What about people who are out sick? What about people on other duties? These are masked by the figures. Court duty takes up an enormous amount of time. The Judiciary here must be tackled as well. It should not be tackled, as such, but the laws must be changed so they will not be so lenient. The revolving door must stop and tagging should be introduced immediately. The public must be reassured that the Garda has the resources. It does not have them, despite the figures about lay people being appointed and all the rest of it. We have good lay staff in Clonmel and good reserve gardaí serving Clonmel and Carrick-on-Suir. We have good community police in Sergeant O'Regan, Sergeant Denis Ryan, Fiona, Clare and Diarmuid but they have not enough given the size of Clonmel and Carrick-on-Suir. We are talking about a community of 30,000-plus. Calls are going unanswered and are not being logged. A person told me this evening he got the first Garda victims-of-crime report after having made about 20 phone calls. It was the first one he got this week. Therefore, it is quite clear that the figures are being manicured and distorted to give a different situation. The Minister needs to cop on to that, deal with it and not hide behind this charade. Garda members are unable to deal with the phone calls. Somebody has to man the station all the time and then deal with calls. There are people waiting two, three or four hours, or maybe no one turns up. That is not the fault of the gardaí; it is the fault of the system. I am holding the Commissioner to account. He is entitled to protect his members and the citizens of this country. For the Minister for Education to read out waffle from the Minister for Justice of the kind she read out is simply unforgivable. It is despicable and disgraceful. I do not have words in my vocabulary to describe how bad it is. It is time we copped on, cut out the dead wood, dealt honestly with the hard-working people and protected them.

Deputy Norma Foley

Again, on behalf of the Minister for Justice, I thank the Deputy for raising the issue. The Minister would like to reassure him that Garda numbers have increased substantially in recent years, from 12,943 Garda members and 1,999 Garda staff in 2016 to 14,283 Garda members and 3,117 Garda staff at the end of August this year. This is an increase in gardaí of more than 10%. There has been an almost 56% increase in Garda staff in recent years.

The Government has made an ongoing and firm commitment to support An Garda Síochána financially and provide it with the resources it needs to support more visible policing. This method will ensure that communities such as Clonmel are safe and that the people in them feel safe. However, I emphasise that, as recommended by the Commission on the Future of Policing in Ireland, responsibility for community safety does not rest solely with an Garda or the Department of Justice. It is a whole-of-government responsibility. This principle is the cornerstone of the Government's policy on community safety and, significantly, will be provided for in law by the new policing security and community safety Bill. Under the legislation, when drafted, new, broader local community-safety partnerships will bring all services in the community together at local authority level, replacing the existing joint policing committees to serve as a comprehensive forum for discussion and decisions on community priorities. Three partnerships are currently being piloted and their operational experiences will feed into nationwide policy roll-out following the conclusion of the pilot period at the end of 2023.

I will relay to the Minister for Justice the points the Deputy has raised but I reiterate that, since 31 August 2022, there have been 399 Garda members assigned to County Tipperary. Clonmel district is comprised of five stations with 76 Garda members assigned to it. This represents an increase of more than 4% since end December 2019. The district has been supported by 17 Garda staff, assigned to Clonmel station at the end August this year. I will bring the points the Deputy has raised to the attention of the Minister for Justice. That is the update I have received.

Arts Policy

Deputy Jennifer Murnane O'Connor

In Carlow town, we are so very fortunate to have the VISUAL Centre for Contemporary Art & The George Bernard Shaw Theatre, one of Ireland's leading contemporary arts spaces. It opened in 2009. With its beautiful gallery space and performance area, it is an incredible amenity to have. VISUAL houses a 335-seat theatre and the largest white-cube gallery space in the country. It produces a programme of both commissioned and existing high-quality national and international contemporary art, plus a host of performances, including dance, film, comedy, literature and music. Its values have inclusion and collaboration at their core. The communities of Carlow and Ireland as a whole have been gifted so much by the centre. In its mission statement, VISUAL states it is committed to identifying and removing physical, social and economic barriers to support, foster and provide opportunities for arts participation in our communities. However, funding is a large barrier to completing this work.

Just recently, the company operating the centre had to seek a subvention from Carlow County Council of nearly €90,000 because it needed to make up a shortfall in funding and meet operational costs for the year. Carlow arts centre, which is owned by the council, wrote to the council asking it for funding due to the increased energy and utility costs, a lack of audiences due to Covid and reductions in VAT recoupment. It is not the first time that the centre has gone to council looking for extra money. I am genuinely worried about the future of VISUAL. Giving money from local authority funds means something else gets cut. I have raised the issue of the theatre not being sufficiently accessible to community groups because of the cost of hiring the venue. This is not acceptable. The arts should be for all to enjoy. That is a huge issue for me when working with community groups that want to hire VISUAL. Owing to the cost, they cannot afford to do so. That is not right.

Currently, all funding from the Arts Council goes to the gallery at the centre but the theatre does not receive Government funding. VISUAL was set up initially as a limited company to allow it to participate in the capital goods scheme and avail of VAT recoupment during the construction phase. Now is the time to address the problem. VISUAL, one of Ireland's leading contemporary arts spaces, needs funding. VISUAL was an €18 million development, a project jointly funded by the local authority and with a grant of €3.17 million from the Department under the access programme.

Carlow County Council and the Arts Council have provided funding in the past; however, neither will have such resources following Covid-19. It will be like borrowing from Peter to pay Paul.

The centre is regularly involved in making funding applications but we can support it and what it is trying to do if we just bring it under the Department and allocate funding from central government. I am seeking that today. I have spoken to the Minister, Deputy Catherine Martin, several times and to every Minister I could to try to get funding for VISUAL. We have the most beautiful arts space and theatre that you ever came across. It is right in the centre of Carlow town. We are so proud of it but we do not get enough funding. We need to avail of the funding stream from the Government, but that is not happening at present. I ask the Minister to ask the Minister for Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media to provide funding from central government.

Deputy Norma Foley

As the Deputy will be aware, I am presenting this information on behalf of the Minister for Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media, Deputy Catherine Martin.

Primary support for the arts is delivered by the Arts Council. In 2022, the Minister allocated a record €130 million to the Arts Council. She was pleased to retain the €130 million in funding for the council in 2023 in recognition of the transformational impact that funding has had on the development of the sector, enabling the council to support more artists and arts organisations than ever before.

The council is independent in its funding decisions under the Arts Act 2003 and the Minister or officials in her Department cannot intervene in this decision-making.

Recent decades have seen the development of a nationwide infrastructure of venues and arts centres, many of which were initiated and funded by local authorities. Current funding provided to these arts centres by local authorities and the Arts Council is critical to ensure that a stable and vibrant network can be maintained. Local authorities are central to the support and development of the arts in Ireland through their own arts offices and through the resourcing and funding of arts centres.

In the context outlined it is understood that the council has made a number of funding awards to the arts centre referred to by the Deputy. This includes €210,000 of arts centre funding as well as commissions awards under its programme for young people children and education. I also understand that Carlow County Council has been awarded €100,000 by the council under the long-standing local arts partnership funding scheme.

Under the Creative Communities initiative of the Creative Ireland programme, the Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media, together with the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage, provides funding to each of the 31 local authorities to enable them to implement their individual cultural and creativity strategies from 2018 to 2022. Through Creative Communities, substantial funding has been provided to Carlow County Council for the period 2018 to 2022 and it has supported an extensive programme of engagement across the arts, culture and creativity in County Carlow.

These centres are also supported through capital schemes operated by the Department. The funding is available under the national development plan for cultural and creativity investment programmes. These are closely aligned with Creative Ireland and include a range of investments in regional arts and cultural facilities.

The cultural capital scheme from 2019 to 2022 is a €4.7 million capital investment scheme for arts and culture centres administered by the Department to enhance the existing stock of arts and culture centres across the country. In recent years, the arts centre in question was successful under a number of capital schemes. The centre was also awarded funding under the regional museum exhibition scheme and further details can be accessed on the Department’s website.

Capital funding for the outdoor public space scheme has been provided to local authorities to adapt, equip or otherwise improve public spaces for cultural and events activities taking account of public health guidance and of the needs of the local arts community. The Minister awarded €250,000 to Carlow County Council in 2021 to provide an outer public space at the Carlow Exchange in Carlow town. I understand that this project has now been completed and was officially opened last month and will be a centre for a range of social, cultural and educational events in Carlow.

In summary, the Deputy will know that the arts centre along with the local authority is in receipt of funding from a wide range of public funding sources, including the Arts Council, which is independent in its funding decisions.

Deputy Jennifer Murnane O'Connor

I thank the Minister for her reply and the Minister, Deputy Martin for her funding for the outdoor public space at the Carlow Exchange in Carlow town. This is beautiful for the community. I am aware of the €210,000 awarded by the Arts Council, which I welcome, but again I feel that this answer is not a good one in the sense that we have a fabulous building and a crisis with the cost of living and heating and electrical costs, and the different factors associated with that.

We are now in a position, having gone through Covid-19, as the Minister will be aware, where one of the most significantly hit sectors was the arts sector when artists through their work could not entertain. In Carlow, groups that were to present visually could not do so because of Covid and this was through no fault of anyone. This brought something of a crisis to that sector. Why do we have a beautiful building? Unless we can sustain it and unless people can use it because they can afford to, such as community groups and artists, then we have a problem. While I welcome and am very thankful for this funding, we need a great deal more funding into the future. From talking to staff of Carlow County Council, I know they are thankful for the funding that has been given, but on the bigger picture and scale going into the future, we need central government funding because if we do not get it, I do not know whether the council can continue putting funding into the VISUAL centre to keep it going.

We have the best volunteers in VISUAL who go in and spend hours of their time giving back to the people of Carlow and all around the country and to everyone who runs it. I am very proud of it but it is important with the cost of living and of everything now, that extra funding be provided. I thank the Minister.

Deputy Norma Foley

I thank the Deputy. Again, this reply has been delivered by me on behalf of the Minister, Deputy Catherine Martin. As outlined previously, primary support for the arts is delivered by the Arts Council. The topic raised by the Deputy asks that funding from the council for a gallery be extended to its in-house theatre. Under the Arts Act of 2003, the council is independent in its funding decisions and the Minister or officials in her Department cannot intervene in this decision-making. It would appear that this is a matter for the centre concerned, in consultation with the Arts Council, and may involve the local authority. The arts centre in question has been successful in sourcing capital funding from the Department under its capital schemes over a number of years. Under budget 2023, additional capital funding is proposed for the arts, which will include a new capital scheme, details of which will be announced in due course.

I acknowledge the passion and belief the Deputy has in the provision of this arts centre and I also acknowledge, as she has outlined herself, the tremendous work of volunteers who have lent so much to this particular centre. She spoke passionately of the importance of the arts and I could not agree with her more in that respect. It is important that we do all that we can to seek to support that sector into the future.

I reiterate what the Minister, Deputy Martin stated in her reply where she has made it clear that a number of funding streams have been made available to this particular arts centre, and that is as it should be. She specifically referred to the €210,000 and other streams of funding, which the Deputy has particularly welcomed. I will communicate to the Minister the passion with which the Deputy has spoken on this issue, the importance of this facility to all of Carlow and to the advancement and enhancement of the arts programme, the provision and sustainability of the arts into the future, and the Deputy's determination to secure that in the future.

Cuireadh an Dáil ar athló ar 12.27 a.m. go dtí 9.12 a.m., Dé Céadaoin, an 12 Deireadh Fómhair 2022.

The Dáil adjourned at 12.27 a.m. until 9.12 a.m. on Wednesday, 12 October 2022.