Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 15 Dec 2022

Vol. 1031 No. 3

Saincheisteanna Tráthúla - Topical Issue Debate

Wastewater Treatment

Deputy Aindrias Moynihan

It is important to acknowledge that the Minister is not here this evening. I have the height of respect for the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, but we need a housing Minister to deal with this issue. Irish Water is running and hiding from Ballingeary. It needs to answer to somebody and it should be the Minister in this House. I must note my frustration with that.

The outdated sewerage scheme in Ballingeary is discharging into the river below the village. Some 15 years ago, the water authority received a conviction because of that pollution. The Irish Water sewerage scheme is impeding housing in the village. As matters stand, locals struggle to get planning permission in the village but they can only be considered if they put in their own treatment plants. That is very expensive and also uses space in the village. Irish Water is charging a fee to connect to a sewer that is not working and all the while residents have to pay for their own treatment plants and maintain them in the village. You could not make it up. It is difficult for people to get planning permission in many rural areas, including around Ballingeary where Irish Water's treatment plant restricts this further in the village, both for houses and businesses. Ballingeary is also a Gaeltacht area and the language depends on people being able to live locally. Without that there is no language. Irish Water is threatening the Gaeltacht by its inaction.

Cork County Council was advancing Ballingeary wastewater plant and a number of other plants many years ago. It even prepared a planning application at the time. While the other plants in what was known as the western bundle have since been officially opened, no progress appears to have been made by Irish Water on Ballingeary. This is despite the pollution, the water pollution conviction and the housing need locally. When there is a flood in the Bun Sílinn river the sewage spills out onto the GAA grounds and the club has to do a clean-up ahead of any training session. There is no point waiting for Irish Water. It takes a “hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil” approach. It has not advanced the plant in the past number of years, during which county council reports have indicated that it has been asked to advance business cases to justify Ballingeary treatment plant. The water pollution conviction does not appear to have driven any sense of urgency in Irish Water. For months, the company has not responded to queries on plants on Ballingeary or the influence of water convictions. It was only in recent weeks when I tabled this Topical Issue matter that it has been in any way forthcoming with information. It takes a consistent “hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil” approach, while continuing to perpetrate pollution locally.

Various authorities, including the Environmental Protection Agency, are now investigating Irish Water discharges into the Bun Sílinn river below Ballingeary, which flow into the River Lee. It appears that Irish Water believes it can continue to pollute the river for years to come. That is not good enough. Irish Water needs to wake up and advance the sewerage scheme for Béal Átha an Ghaorthaidh.

Minister of State at the Department of Health (Deputy Anne Rabbitte)

I am taking this Topical Issue matter on behalf of the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage. I thank the Deputy for raising it and allowing me the opportunity to outline the position in respect of Irish Water's responsibility on this matter. The Water Services Acts 2007 to 2017 set out the arrangements in place for the delivery of water and wastewater services by Irish Water and the scrutiny and oversight provisions that apply in respect of these arrangements. As the Deputy will understand, the wastewater infrastructure in Ballingeary, County Cork, is a matter for Irish Water in the first instance. Irish Water takes a strategic, nationwide approach to asset planning and investment and meeting customer requirements. The prioritisation and progression of individual projects and programmes are a matter for determination by Irish Water.

Irish Water's capital investment plan runs until 2024 and is prepared within the regulatory framework which is set out in legislation. Under this framework, Irish Water submits its proposed investment plans in advance to its economic regulator, the Commission for Regulation of Utilities, CRU. The investment plan follows an extensive CRU-led stakeholder consultation process and is based on a clearly defined set of priorities. My Department has made inquiries with Irish Water on the issue of wastewater treatment infrastructure at Ballingeary, as raised by Deputy Moynihan. Irish Water confirmed to me that it has received a number of inquiries in recent months from various Deputies, councillors and members of the public regarding the inclusion of the Béal Átha an Ghaorthaidh or Ballingeary wastewater treatment plant in its next capital investment plan. Irish Water has commenced a feasibility study on the upgrade of the wastewater treatment plant to consider fully the viable options to address the infrastructural issues associated with the plant, its impact on receiving waters and its capacity to cater for growth. This feasibility study report is planned to be completed before the end of 2024. The necessary upgrade works, if approved, would then be included in the 2025-29 capital investment plan.

The Government is aware that significant and sustained investment is needed to ensure the continued operation, upgrade and repair of the country's water and wastewater infrastructure and to support economic growth in the years to come. In this regard, as part of budget 2023, the Minister's Department secured funding of more than €1.68 billion to support water services. This includes €1.557 billion in respect of domestic water services provision by Irish Water. The overall investment will deliver significant improvements in our public water and wastewater services.

In light of the time left to me, I will take on board exactly what Deputy Moynihan said in regard to the local GAA field, what members of the community are experiencing there on a regular basis and the impact on the environment and the community. I will raise this matter with the Minister, Deputy O'Brien, because I do not know if the community can wait until 2025.

Deputy Aindrias Moynihan

Tá Uisce Éireann ag déanamh faillí ar mhuintir Bhéal Átha an Ghaorthaidh. Tá bac ar thithíocht sa sráidbhaile toisc nach bhfuil aon chóras séarachais ag oibriú ann. Tá truailliú leanúnach in Abha Bhun Sílinn agus sa Laoi in ainneoin gur ciontaíodh an t-údarás uisce as an truailliú sin. Bhí an chomhairle contae ag forbairt pleananna ach níl aon rud déanta ag Uisce Éireann le breis agus deich mbliana anuas. Nuair a bhíonn an tuile ann, tagann an séarachas amach chuig an pháirc CLG agus bíonn ar an gclub é a ghlanadh mar ní fiú feitheamh le hUisce Éireann. Ní bheidh sé ag teacht. Tá na húdaráis éagsúla, an Ghníomhaireacht um Chaomhnú Comhshaoil, EPA, ina measc, ag iniúchadh an truaillithe seo. Tá Uisce Éireann ag cur gach rud ar an méar fhada i gcomhair mhuintir Bhéal Átha an Ghaorthaidh agus ba cheart dó dúiseacht suas agus freastal ar phobal na Gaeltachta.

Irish Water has not used the last ten years to advance Ballingeary, from what the Minister of State has outlined to us. The other schemes in that western bundle are now open and operational, yet what is being described from Irish Water is pretty much at stage 1. I note it also refers to “recent” queries from people. There have been ongoing queries and representations from people for many years. This is just more of Irish Water's “hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil”. It is time for it to wake up and serve the people of Ballingeary.

How many other treatment plants would have a water pollution conviction against the water authority? How many other situations like that would be allowed to persist, year after year, and then, Irish Water gives us a plan, if we can call it that, suggesting that somewhere off in never-never land, it will take action. Surely a conviction in the court carries some weight. Is it not time for Irish Water to step up to the plate?

Deputy Anne Rabbitte

I once again thank Deputy Moynihan for raising the question on wastewater treatment infrastructure in Ballingeary, County Cork. The Deputy will understand that the progression of individual wastewater treatment plants and infrastructure is a matter for Irish Water and I can assure him the Government is committed to ensuring that substantial funding is provided to Irish Water.

The programme for Government commits to funding Irish Water’s capital investment plan for water and wastewater infrastructure on a multi-annual basis. The national development plan 2021-2030 commits almost €6 billion in capital investment by Irish Water in the period 2021-2025, of which more than €4.5 billion will be voted Exchequer funding for domestic water services. In regard to overall investment, the programme for Government states that the Government will fund Irish Water's capital investment plan for drinking water and wastewater infrastructure on a multi-annual basis and deliver the €8.5 billion funding package committed in Project Ireland 2040. This overall funding commitment is key to addressing Ireland's shortcomings in water and wastewater infrastructure.

The Department is making progress on the challenges it faces and the Government will continue to deliver strongly on the commitments in regard to water services contained in the programme for Government. It may be helpful to note that Irish Water has established a dedicated team to deal with representations and queries from public representatives. I will take back to the Minister, Deputy O'Brien, Deputy Moynihan’s frustration that the Minister is not here this evening to take this query, as well as its nature and the urgency attached to it. I thank the Deputy for raising it.

Water Quality

Deputy David Stanton

I thank the Minister of State for attending. It is a pity the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage and the Ministers of State at that Department cannot be here but I know they have been on their feet all day. There is a major problem affecting water supply for 10,000 people in east Cork and impacting on areas south-east of Midleton such as Ballinacurra, Cloyne, Aghada, Ballycotton, Churchtown, Trabolgan and all of the rural areas inbetween. The problem has been there since early January 2016, which is almost seven years ago. It has resulted in boil water notices being put in place for varying periods of between two weeks and a number of months every year since 2016, sometimes more than three times in the same year.

The most recent boil water notice was issued on 29 October 2022 and remains in place two months later. This means people either have to boil water, at alarming cost, or else bear the cost of purchasing water in plastic bottles, which adds to the overuse of single-use plastic, which we are all trying to avoid. The Minister of State will appreciate this is adding to household costs in a major way, as well as the disruption it causes to households. I understand that on 30 November last Irish Water confirmed it was examining tankering water into the area, although I have not seen that happen yet. This water will still have to be boiled for use, so there is little advantage.

To be fair to Irish Water, as far back as October 2016 it put in a new filtration system with two microfiltration units, and a UV disinfection unit has been installed at a cost of over €1 million. New shuttering controls were also put in place to prevent any inadequately treated water from entering the water supply. However, the fact quite a number of boil water notices have issued since 2016 indicates the spending of that €1 million has not worked. The most recent information from the Irish Water website talks about further works taking place involving the major upgrade of the water treatment plant, for which land has been acquired, and a contractor has been appointed to undertake design and construction. However, full planning permission will be required and the project is currently at detailed design phase. Irish Water is targeting early 2023 for the submission of planning and is anticipating the construction might commence in 2024, so, all going well, we might have a solution by 2025, if we are lucky.

Irish Water told me that despite the cost involved to families, there is no way that it is allowed to compensate families, although businesses are entitled to a discount on bills which is applied automatically. Really and truly, we should look at some way of compensating families.

Another issue that has arisen recently is the notification that Irish Water gives to households. I had a call from a woman today who moved into the area a number of months ago and was unaware of the boil water notice, and both herself and her child were drinking the tap water after that time. This raises questions about how the public, households and families are notified about the putting in place of a boil water notice. I contend that, at the very least, posters, like those we use at election time, should be erected in the geographical areas affected. It is not good enough to rely on newspapers and social media to alert people. This is serious because people can become ill if they are not notified properly. They should also be notified when the notice is taken down because, otherwise, it can become confusing.

I want the Minister to act in four areas. First, he needs to deal with the costs to householders. The Minister knows it costs almost €1.30 to purchase 5 l of water and almost 10 cent each time a full kettle of water is boiled. We can imagine how much people would use in a day for drinking. Second, I want the Minister to direct Irish Water to ensure people are reminded on a regular basis of the boil water notice, and these updates should preferably include the erecting of posters in the area concerned. Third, I want the Minister to engage with Irish Water to see if anything can be done to have the problem rectified before the end of 2025. Fourth, other public representatives, such as councillors in the area, would like to engage with Irish Water, which I understand has so far refused to do so. Irish Water should present itself to the local municipal district meetings and explain to the councillors exactly what is going on and what it plans to do to rectify this.

Deputy Anne Rabbitte

I thank the Deputy for raising the Whitegate boil water notice issue. I apologise that the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage is not present, and I am dealing with this matter on his behalf. The issue of safe drinking water has both national and local importance and I appreciate the Deputy's concern for those communities affected.

I understand from inquiries made with Irish Water that the boil water notice currently in place for the Whitegate public water supply was issued on 29 October 2022 following consultation between Irish Water, Cork County Council and the Health Service Executive. This boil water notice was issued to protect approximately 9,500 customers in Whitegate, Aghada, Churchtown, Ballycotton, Saleen, Shanagarry, Ballinacurra and areas of Cloyne. The notice was issued as a result of increased turbidity in the raw water, which can happen at this source as it is susceptible to raw water quality issues after rainfall events. Boil water notices have been issued on Whitegate public water supply a number of times over the past few years. The Deputy will appreciate that the operation of Whitegate public water supply is a matter for Irish Water, which has statutory responsibility for all aspects of water services planning, delivery and operation at national, regional and local level. I would have thought Irish Water would also have a responsibility for the health and well-being of the people in the community.

I understand that, in the short term, upgrade works to filters are under way and additional parts are on order, with delivery expected by the end of December. Following the implementation of these measures, the HSE will be asked to confirm that the criteria for lifting the boil water notice are met. In the longer term, the delivery of a new water treatment plant as the permanent solution to issues at Whitegate is under way and is expected to be completed by the end of 2025.

Irish Water has a strong customer service focus through its water charges plan and customer charter, which outlines the standard of service customers should expect to receive. The water charges plan sets out a compensation mechanism when water quality is compromised and unfit for human consumption, such as when boil water and drinking water restriction notices apply. Business customers who pay charges are entitled to a rebate under the customer handbook, as agreed with the Commission for Regulation of Utilities. Adjustments are made via the customers' bills.

This only applies to water used for drinking. Implementation of a water charges plan is a matter, in the first instance, for Irish Water. Any issue which cannot be resolved by Irish Water to the satisfaction of the customers can be referred under the formal complaints process for the Commission for Regulation of Utilities. The Minister said that it is a priority to ensure that people's health is protected and that adequate water is available for all customers. We all want to see the notice lifted without undue delay.

I also take on board exactly what the Deputy laid out as the four key priorities. One is in respect of the cost to households which I will relay back to the Minister. The other is on the communication. For families who may have been away on holidays, or people moving into the area for the first time, not knowing about these issues can put themselves at risk. The Minister will engage with Irish Water on this as a priority because of the health and safety issues here.

Finally, as public representatives at a local and municipal area levels, the very minimum we would expect from Irish Water is that it would come before the local municipal authority and be accountable to the people who are accountable to the public.

Deputy David Stanton

I thank the Minister of State for her response and for her usual honesty and straightforwardness in dealing with this issue. I will give the Minister of State some idea of what is happening here. On 1 February 2021, a boil water notice was issued. On 12 March, it was lifted. On 28 October 2021, it was issued again. On 5 November, it was lifted and on Christmas Day 2021, a boil water notice was issued. On 3 June 2022, it was lifted and was again then issued on 29 October this year and is still in place.

Trying to keep track of all of that and whether or not it is in place is quite difficult for the public as they have other things to be doing. It is quite a challenge to inform people on how this is done. The Minister of State is quite right in that if people are away on holiday or if they move into the area, how are these people to know that a boil water notice is in place? If there are people who are vulnerable, who have health issues, or babies or small children, and if they drink this water, which the HSE tells us may be unsafe, then people’s health is at risk. The Minister of State’s final point there is that she wishes to see the notice lifted without undue delay, which we all want, but only when the HSE and the Environmental Protection Agency, EPA, confirm that the water supply is safe. If people do not know they should boil water and drink the water out of the tap that is not guaranteed to be safe for them, that is very serious.

I ask that the Minister of State convey back to the senior Minister, Deputy O’Brien, that we need to instruct Irish Water and the HSE to erect posters in the area when a boil water notice is in place and to take them down when it is lifted. If they leave them up, they will lose their effectiveness. Otherwise, people will not know. I cannot think of any other way of this happening, but perhaps the Minister of State can. People should also be compensated for the very significant cost they are incurring and the inconvenience of having to do this, which is also quite a worry. On top of that, the Minister should ensure that Irish Water engages with public representatives on this. In the past, Irish Water used to have a clinic in this House, where it used to come in and we would meet the company officials face-to-face. Perhaps the senior Minister should put that back in place where we could meet the officials and talk to them. That might be something Irish Water might do. I cannot understand why it is going to take until the end of 2025 to get this done, given that it is going on since 2016.

Deputy Anne Rabbitte

I thank the Deputy again. I appreciate his interest in this matter and I understand his frustration. I acknowledge the patience and the co-operation of the residents and businesses in the Whitegate area who have been affected. This is 9,500 people over prolonged periods of time. The Government’s priority is to ensure that people’s health is protected and that adequate water is available for all consumers. We all want to see the notice lifted without undue delay but only when the HSE and the EPA have confirmed that water supply is safe. Both our water and wastewater systems require substantial sustained investment over a number of investment cycles to bring the system up to the quality and resilience standards required of modern services, to provide for population growth, and to build resilience in the face of climate change.

As part of budget 2023, the Minister secured, as I said earlier, funding of €1.65 billion to support water services. The overall investment will deliver significant improvements in the public water and wastewater services and will support improved water supplies right across Ireland, including rural Ireland. It supports a range of programmes delivering improved water quality in our rivers, lakes, and marine areas. Irish Water has established a dedicated team to deal with representatives’ queries.

The Deputy makes some very valuable suggestions there on Irish Water in re-engaging with public representatives. I remember a time when Irish Water came into the House. These were some of the best clinics ever held in this House because we had a list - no matter whether it was in Deputy Stanton’s area, in my area or in Deputy Martin Kenny’s area - of constituents who were affected and impacted by such issues. When it is the health, safety and well-being of people, particularly in the area of Deputy Stanton where there are 9,500 people, I believe the Deputy’s ask in respect of clear communication and signage is completely valid. I acknowledge the issue of climate change but if Irish Water wants to use the back of our election posters to put up the notices, we can do that too.

Disability Services

Deputy Martin Kenny

I am glad to have this opportunity to speak to the Minister of State. I engaged with her probably a year and a half ago, or more, on this particular issue. As she is aware, there are a number of families, mainly in south Leitrim, who have children with severe disabilities. Most of them are young adults at this stage and their parents are becoming quite elderly and are getting on. One of them, a neighbour of mine, in fact, passed away recently. This is really becoming a crisis for these families as they look to the future. This situation is a worry for them in many respects.

The Minister of State held a meeting at the end of May this year in the Bush Hotel in Carrick-on-Shannon and I want to thank her for that. We brought together all of the stakeholders, including the HSE, the service providers, the parents, people from the local authorities, local councillors and the other Deputies in the area. We came up with the bones of a solution to move the situation forward, and I commend the Minister of State on that.

We need to use a site in Carrick-on-Shannon, which is owned by the HSE, and which has been set aside to build a proper respite service for them. It was agreed at that meeting that a team would be put together to work on this. That team has been put together, has done some work and has met regularly, but I am not sure if a great deal of progress has been made. That is disappointing and I await the Minister of State’s reply in respect of that.

We need to see a proper residential care unit built on that site, together with a respite unit, because in some cases, these parents have had no respite for years. The nearest respite service they have is in Tullaghan in County Leitrim, which for many of them is a great distance away, and is very near Bundoran in County Donegal. We need to see this put in place immediately and we need a proper plan to be put together to build those services.

In the interim, until that is built, we need to have a respite service for these young people. We had a solution that day, which the Minister of State is aware of. We looked at the Cloonamahon site, which is near Collooney in County Sligo and is not a very significant distance from south Leitrim. This site was available. There are two purpose-built bungalows there, which were built 20 years ago and are fully kitted-out. At present they are used as residential units and there are six residents in those units. Work is currently under way to move those residents out into what is called a decongregated setting in the community. That is happening apace.

The units are purpose-built and comprise two five-bedroom bungalows. When we talked about what we were going to build, which would be HIQA-approved, figures being talked about were heading close to €1 million and yet these buildings are there, are being used and are HIQA-approved. On the day, the remark was made that all they needed was a lick of paint.

I have good news because a man called Ivor Parke, a local painter and decorator contracted by the HSE, went in less than two weeks ago and painted both of them from floor-to-ceiling. That has been done because the HSE evidently has a plan to turn these buildings into offices. The country is coming down with offices but we do not have a place to provide services for children and young people with disabilities. The person who came up with that idea needs to be dragged over the coals because to even talk about it is a scandal, never mind to even do it, considering that these purpose-built and HIQA-approved units are in place. All we need to do is to ensure we use them for respite services for the young people concerned.

I understand the HSE is going around the country trying to find private services to provide the services, which in many cases do not exist, or do not exist to the level of quality we would require and HIQA would approve. These buildings are there and they should be used. Apart from the problems these parents and families have, which is a pressing crisis we need to resolve, a secondary scandal would be if these two buildings were turned into office space. The Minister of State, or any other Minister, could not stand over allowing the people who have responsibility, as employees of the HSE, to provide services for people with disabilities, to do this. They need to block the use of these units as office space. It is scandalous that they would even think of doing such a thing.

I look forward to the Minister of State's reply. I hope she has good news, not for me but for these families who are at their wits' end in trying to get a solution to this crisis.

Deputy Anne Rabbitte

I thank the Deputy for quite rightly giving us the opportunity to have this discussion. It is more than six months since I travelled to Carrick-on-Shannon to meet with parents - from what I understand, they represented many more parents - and public representatives. HSE representatives were present at the meeting on the day. When I reflect on it, we had a very good conversation. There was real energy in the room. My script does not reflect what I am about to say.

Deputy Martin Kenny

Okay.

Deputy Anne Rabbitte

It might reflect some of it but not all. We had a very good conversation in that room. I felt there was energy and pace in the room to find a solution. My goal in travelling was to find a solution for the people of County Leitrim, especially the people of south Leitrim, whose options were very limited. In fact, they had none. I acknowledge the role of local authority members who were present at that meeting. They were tasked with a job, which was to find a site and to see whether sites were available. All of a sudden, they found sites. They found HSE sites that were available. That has been set in train and a development group has been set in place. We will take that.

While that is being developed, the Deputy is correct that we also identified Cloonamahon as an option for transitional space in the interim because we know that Tullaghan is operating on five over seven nights. Even if we moved Tullaghan to seven over seven nights, it means that 136 families will need to access it. No matter what respite service I open, it will not exceed supporting more than 80 families so there is a shortfall of 56. With the best will in the world, going to seven over seven is part of the solution but it still does not meet the whole of the solution. The Deputy is quite right that it was agreed on that day, and HSE estates representatives said clearly at the meeting, that they could go in to the building at Cloonamahon, give it a lick of paint and make it functional.

From talking to Ms Edel Quinn, HSE head of disability services for the area, for whom I have great time and respect - I spoke to her at 3.30 p.m. today - the building will not be operationalised to support many of the families because people with higher-sized wheelchairs might not be able to access the building. I take that on board because she is the lead and everything else. However, it will be able to support many more people, as it should. If Tullaghan is the place where larger-sized wheelchairs have to go, they will be prioritised to go there but, in the interim, we should use one of those bungalows that would support families and be the only met need in south Leitrim.

The Deputy is not alone in his ask because his colleagues, including Deputy Marc MacSharry and the Minister of the State at the Department of Health, Deputy Feighan, have advocated the same piece. Common sense and a dose of reality needs to come in. We have a building that can provide support while we are constructing a new purpose-built, respite and residential facility in Carrick-on-Shannon. My ask of Ms Quinn was to go back again today. Her ask of me was to engage with the CEO of HIQA to ensure that HIQA would give the HSE a delegated function to operate on the site. I need HIQA to approve operation on the site of one of those bungalows so that while we are de-congregating, the other building could be used. We have gone to HIQA this evening to find out whether we can get a derogation. Could one of those bungalows be used while we decongregate? I will engage further with the Deputy in my next response.

Deputy Martin Kenny

I acknowledge the Minister of State's work in respect of this. My frustration is that on the day - the Minister of State is right to say we had a very good meeting, there was energy in the room and we felt that everybody was on the same page - I detected a little hesitancy on the part of some of the HSE officials to use Cloonamahon. I did not know or understand why. I still do not understand why. The prospect that there may be difficulty with some oversized wheelchairs needs to be examined. Maybe that is the case. I am not sure if that is the case. I would have to be convinced that problem exists there because these bungalows were built 20 years ago. This is not something that goes back to Victorian times like the rest of the building, which houses an old convent. This is a modern, new building. It has hoists in place, rails in the ceilings and everything is there. It is HIQA approved, as it stands, and yet there is this reluctance to use it. The Minister of State mentioned "in the interim" until we get the others built. It should never ever be used for anything else other than providing services for which it was built in the first place. If that ever happens, it would be a scandal.

I take the Minister of State's word that we can move quickly but we now have a Christmas break. When we return after Christmas, whether she is in the same role, which we will not get into, and regardless of who is in that position, I want to see a proper respite service in place for those families that is convenient for them, works for them and that they are satisfied with. There is great dissatisfaction and despair among all those parents I have spoken to and engaged with over the past couple of years. There is a major problem here. It is so easy to fix it and yet there is this hesitancy to fix it.

We sometimes ask why people in senior positions in the HSE and other places do not do their jobs. Sometimes I think what needs to happen is people need to be given their P45s and told to get out the door if they do not do their jobs. If the State is sued, loses and has to take that cost, it is a hit the State should take because the next person who gets that job will do his or her job, as that individual will know there are consequences for not doing it. That is what it is down to. There are people in this State in senior positions who, for some reason or other, will not do what they are paid to do. In this case, these people are paid to provide services for people with disabilities and they should bloody well do it.

Deputy Anne Rabbitte

I again thank the Deputy for giving me the opportunity to discuss this matter. It is also very important to recognise, when we talk about the HSE, that two, three or four different rule books are in operation. The operational side of the HSE has a different rule book from the estates side of the HSE. They go at two different paces and have two different ways of delivery. To be very fair to the director of services for the south Leitrim area, she wants nothing more than to ensure that there is plenty of adequate respite care for the people of Leitrim. That is for sure.

HSE estates representatives were at the meeting that day. The Deputy is correct that there has been a reluctance since then because two different answers were given. One was about going in with the paint brush and the other was about saying, "Hold on. Maybe we cannot do this because of HIQA, this, that and the other". That is where my office has intervened.

Deputy Martin Kenny

Excuses, excuses.

Deputy Anne Rabbitte

My office staff have contacted HIQA to see if we can get that derogation. There is a good building there. There is a building that can be used by the families who need access to it. The funding is provided to allow Tullaghan go from five over seven to seven over seven. Funding is there as well to-----

Deputy Martin Kenny

It is not suitable. It is too far away.

Deputy Anne Rabbitte

There is also funding. If it is a fact that wheelchairs are an issue, there is choice. We need to ensure that everybody has fair and equitable access to services. The bus system issue has also been addressed. An issue raised at the meeting was that a bus would be provided. We have addressed the bus issue, we have gone to seven over seven, and we are waiting for HIQA to come back with a derogation for the site at Cloonamahon to be accessed and used in conjunction, while de-congregation is taking place at pace. That is my answer to the Deputy - "at pace".

Deputy Martin Kenny

The house they were using at Carrick-on-Shannon up to now was a tiny house. It was a standard, ordinary bungalow but it has been used for respite services-----

Deputy Anne Rabbitte

I take that on board.

Deputy Martin Kenny

-----for all those families.

Deputy Anne Rabbitte

I take the point.

Child and Family Agency

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

My parliamentary assistant, Mr. Luke Silke, was in contact with the Department of Justice regarding the flaws within the Garda vetting system. I understand, however, it is not investigating the disclosures made by Aontú because of that Department's interpretation of the Protected Disclosures (Amendment) Act.

In recent months, I was contacted by an individual who alleged that she and her siblings were severely abused while in foster care in this country in the 1980s and 1990s. Tusla has ascribed the pseudonym "Alice" to the individual and has produced an internal case review of her life, dated 2020, known as the Alice report. Alice has furnished me with a copy of that report. "Morning Ireland" has also broadcast a piece on Alice's life. It interviewed her sister, Miss H. A major discrepancy exists between the findings of Tusla's Alice report and a recent email exchange between Miss H and the Garda data protection unit. Tusla states in the Alice report that the biological son of Miss H's foster mother was accused by Miss H of child sexual abuse, that he confessed the child sexual abuse to the Garda, that a file was sent to the Director of Public Prosecutions, DPP, and that the DPP decided not to prosecute.

In an email exchange with the Garda data protection unit this year, Ms H was informed that the Garda has located a PULSE entry relating to her report of abuse in 1999. However, the Garda noted that no suspected offender is named nor is there any detail lodged. In a separate email, it is stated that it does not appear the incident was forwarded to the DPP. This statement from the Garda is obviously completely at odds with the Tusla statement in the Alice report, which claimed the DPP had decided not to prosecute. In its moves to clarify this matter, the Garda has been inconsistent, has raised more questions than answers and has retraumatised Alice and Ms H. Again, the Department of Justice has been furnished with all of the documents I have quoted from. The Minister, Deputy O'Gorman, met with Alice over the summer and I am very grateful to him for doing so.

The reason I am raising this matter with the Minister of State today is that my parliamentary assistant was very recently contacted by an individual who sent an image that appears to show the alleged child sex abuser, the person who allegedly abused Ms H, as having recently been appointed to a role within a sports club. The screenshot sent has been furnished to the Minister of State's Department. The individual who contacted us wanted to know how an alleged abuser could have possibly got through the Garda vetting system. The answer is simple. Despite Tusla recording that this alleged abuser actually confessed to the child sex abuse of Ms H and despite the existence of a PULSE reference number on that case, An Garda Síochána has openly admitted it has no record of any detail logged, of a confession or of the name of the alleged abuser. Therefore, a Garda vetting search of the alleged abuser's name would presumably return no results whatsoever. This is an extraordinarily concerning development that could call into question the entire Garda vetting system. It is not unique to this case. How can we possibly have faith in the vetting system if files and confession statements that should be in the PULSE system have simply gone missing?

Minister of State at the Department of Justice (Deputy James Browne)

As the Deputy will be fully aware, I will not be discussing a specific case. However, I will answer the question that was posed, which sought to discuss with the Minister for Justice the technologies and methods used as part of the Garda vetting process.

On behalf of the Minister for Justice, Deputy Humphreys, I thank the Deputy for raising this issue in the House today. The Deputy will appreciate that the Garda Commissioner is responsible for the management and administration of Garda business. This is laid down under the Garda Síochána Act 2005 and includes the technologies and methods used as part of the Garda vetting process. Additionally, the national vetting bureau Act of 2012 makes it the responsibility of the chief bureau officer of the Garda National Vetting Bureau to establish and maintain the database of the bureau. The Minister for Justice has no role in these independent functions.

The Minister is advised by the Garda authorities that, in general, the vetting process follows a number of steps. In the first step, the vetting subject manually completes and forwards to a relevant organisation a vetting invitation form and provides proof of identity. In the second step, the relevant organisation confirms proof of identity and sends the vetting subject an email with a link attached inviting him or her to complete a vetting application form. The third step is that the vetting subject completes the vetting application form online and submits it to the relevant organisation. In the fourth step, the relevant organisation reviews the vetting application form and submits it to the Garda National Vetting Bureau. The fifth step is that the bureau processes the application and forwards a vetting disclosure to the relevant organisation while the sixth is that the relevant organisation accesses the vetting disclosure through the online portal.

The Deputy may wish to know that the bureau provides applicants with a tracking number for their application and that, concurrent with the vetting process, they can track the progress of their application online. The Minister is advised that standard turnaround times for vetting run at five to eight working days and there are currently no delays or backlogs. As the Deputy will appreciate, some applications will take significantly longer for a variety of operational reasons.

I can also inform the Deputy that a Garda vetting review group was established in April 2021 and meets regularly to discuss potential amendments to vetting legislation. This group includes members of the Garda National Vetting Bureau in An Garda Síochána, officials from my Department and from Tusla and other relevant stakeholders. The primary focus of the group is strengthening the vetting legislation in an effective manner. Issues to be considered by the group include any changes which may be possible in the area of re-vetting. The Minister hopes the group will be in a position to report on its work early in the new year. I can also confirm to the Deputy that technology will be addressed in the working group's report.

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

This is an extraordinary answer. All of us in the Dáil are responsible to the citizens we serve in the State. The case I have raised is anonymous so the Minister of State actually can refer to it. Ministers refer to many specific cases regularly in this Chamber. The Minister of State is responsible for ensuring the Garda does its job properly. It is not the case that he can just sit on his hands and say it is somebody else's business. It is the responsibility of this Government to ensure citizens are protected.

Alice is a very brave woman, as is her sister, Ms H. They have been relentless in the pursuit of justice. They have been knocking on the doors of a great many agencies over the past two decades. They have had to do that because of responses similar to that the Minister of State has given here. Her name is well known to Tusla and in the local Garda station because of her persistent campaigning. At one point, she triggered a Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission, GSOC, investigation into the way her local Garda station handled her abuse case. At the same time as this investigation was under way, she was applying for a house. During the GSOC investigation, the Garda station under investigation told the local authority that Alice had broken the law. One presumes this would have had the negative effect of reducing the chances of her housing application being successful. The Garda has since said this was an error and apologised to Alice for providing the local authority with a fabricated and false record. I believe the Minister of State will agree that, when agents of the State who are meant to protect individuals and vet people properly admit they do not have documents within PULSE records and when they tell a local authority a lie regarding an individual's track record which could reduce his or her opportunity to get a local authority house, it is our responsibility. I would like the Minister of State to answer the question I asked him in the first section.

Deputy James Browne

Again, as the Deputy is very well aware, it is not possible for me to address the very specific case he has raised. I would also point out that the Deputy asked a very generic question asking the Minister for Justice to address issues around the technologies and methods used. If he wanted a more specific answer, he could have asked a more specific question or highlighted what he was going to raise to the Department before I came in here.

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

We did. All of this information is in the Department's hands.

Deputy James Browne

The Deputy did not do so before I came in here.

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

All of it has been in the Department's hands for weeks.

Deputy James Browne

The Deputy asked a generic question. Again, on behalf of the Minister for Justice, I thank the Deputy for raising this issue today. I again emphasise that the Garda Commissioner is responsible for the administration and management of the Garda vetting system. The Minister for Justice has no role in such matters and cannot direct An Garda Síochána in the operation of the vetting system. The primary purpose of the employment vetting carried out by the national vetting bureau is to seek to ensure the safety of children and vulnerable adults. This important work needs to be carried out thoroughly and correctly. As I have mentioned, the Garda vetting review group is working on issues relating to the strengthening of the vetting legislation and the Minister looks forward to the group's report, which is anticipated early in the new year.

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

There is no more information there than a Google search would have provided.

Deputy James Browne

The Deputy should ask a more specific question next time.

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

We have.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Bernard J. Durkan)

Perhaps it might be possible for the Deputy to talk to the Department and the Minister and work out a system to resolve the problem.

School Accommodation

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

I have a very specific question for the Minister of State. I hope to hear good news. Chuaigh mé chuig Gaelscoil Uí Earcáin i bhFionnghlas an mhí seo caite. Is scoil iontach í le hiarscoláirí agus múinteoirí iontacha. The school is doing a great job in a very poor building. Schools are often very slow to talk about the failings of their premises because they want to project the best possible impression. They want to attract children and they want parents to have confidence in the school. Before I say anything else, I will say that I have full confidence in the teachers and pupils of Gaelscoil Uí Earcáin. What is letting them down is the Department of Education not providing for the building they are in. The school is the former De La Salle school. It is a school I know quite a good deal about. I attended it myself and my grandfather was on the committee that raised the funds to establish the school along with the second level school that was established when free education was introduced in Ireland.

The Minister of State might be surprised, as I was, that the windows are the same as those my grandfather fundraised for. They are wooden windows. Where there are holes in those windows, they are covered with cardboard. Where they are not covered in cardboard, they are covered in bits of plywood. Walking around the edge of the building, we would think it is an abandoned site that the Minister might build houses on. Instead, every day, children go in and out of the school and do a great job learning our national language and getting a great education. The Minister for Education has given me an update in recent months by way of parliamentary questions that this school is part of the accelerated delivery of architectural planning and tendering, ADAPT, programme and that a design team will be appointed for a 16-classroom extension and for two special education needs, SEN, classrooms, which I know the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, will be very pleased about as well.

The school, though, is still unsure where it is on the project timeline. It has very little confidence after having waited many years. Any additional information the Minister of State can provide us with would be very welcome indeed. The classrooms are old and do not have toilets. The logical place to put such toilets would be where the windows are failing. We could probably get money to put in new windows, but we would end up ripping them out in a year or two to allow the toilet extensions to be put in. What is required here is a proper new school, as promised.

I believe in the necessity of dealing with embodied carbon and retaining as many of our buildings as possible, and big chunks of this building could be saved, repurposed and reused. It is regrettable that a Deputy must come before this House to talk about the arrangements of toilets in a school. Our national Parliament should not be dealing with these issues. I do this, however, out of a sense of frustration that we have not been able to progress this issue any further. I hope the Minister of State is as committed as I am to the progression of this school. I also hope that we can get good news for a great school and, as I said, its great pupils as well.

Deputy James Browne

I thank the Deputy for raising this important matter. The Deputy has been working on it for some time. I am providing a response outlining to the House the major building project that will be undertaken at Gaelscoil Uí Earcáin, and also recent interactions between the school, its patron body and the Department of Education on the current condition of the existing school building.

The school currently occupies a building constructed during the 1950s, over two storeys, on its site at Glasanaon Road and the building fabric and finishes are typical of a building of that type and age. Under the Department's emergency works scheme, refurbishment works to the boys' toilet areas were carried out in 2021 and a tender report for works to the girls' toilet areas is awaited. The Department of Education recently approved funding to provide interim accommodation on the school site to facilitate the establishment of a special class for the 2022-23 academic year.

A Department architect visited the school earlier this year and advised the school authorities to make the appropriate applications for necessary emergency works. The Department has assisted the school in appointing a building surveyor to carry out a survey in support of that emergency works application. The application has not yet been submitted to the Department of Education. In a meeting earlier this week with the school's patron, the Department officials were further apprised of the current conditions in the building. At that meeting, the Department officials agreed with the patron that there is a need for further maintenance and to provide additional accommodation for special needs pupils in the coming months.

A major building project to provide new suitable accommodation for Gaelscoil Uí Earcáin is included in the Department's construction programme, which is being delivered under the national development plan, NDP, as part of the Project Ireland 2040 framework. As per the brief formulation document to be supplied to the incoming design team, the options of an extension-refurbishment of the existing or, alternatively, a new school building for Gaelscoil Uí Earcáin and the demolition of the existing school building will be fully considered by the school and its design team at stage 1 of the architectural planning process.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

I thank the Minister of State for acknowledging that I have raised this issue. I do not need to come before the House to talk to the Minister for Education because I get the opportunity to do so every week at our parliamentary party meeting. I am sending the message here to the officials in the Department of Education as well and to those people in the school building unit that Gaelscoil Uí Earcáin cannot wait any longer. We have a principal here listening to the response from the Minister of State as we speak. She kindly sent me the reply I could read out on her behalf. She is basically saying that she acknowledges what we have done and the progress made. The school, though, will not last the five years that we expect the ADAPT programme will take. We need to accelerate this process, therefore, as quickly as possible. We must ensure we are not wasting public money and spending emergency works funds now only to subsequently have to pull out stuff we have just put in. The principal in this school has been extremely diligent in how she has approached this project and who has told the State how it can save money, get new SEN classes and improve the facilities in the school.

I want the people in the building unit to listen to the principal and teachers in this school and to respond to them by telling them how long this endeavour is going to take, the process involved and by confirming that guidance will be provided through this undertaking step-by-step. I acknowledge the progress made to date, but we need to do more. I hope the Minister of State will take this message back to the Government. I know he will.

I am fundamentally committed to increasing the number of SEN places across the whole of Finglas, Santry, Ballymun and Glasnevin. I acknowledge the principals who have opened autistic spectrum disorder, ASD, classes. This is a very significant improvement. Education must be for everybody. Principals can only do this, however, if they are not fighting fires on every other front. While Gaelscoil Uí Earcáin is doing a great job, it is fighting these fires.

Deputy James Browne

I thank Deputy McAuliffe for raising this very important matter. I confirm that the Department of Education is aware of the current building conditions and that Department officials will assist and advise the school authorities in maintaining the current school premises in advance of the delivery of the major building project. The Department will shortly advise the school authorities of further developments in respect of the appointment of the design team, which it is anticipated will be completed in the second quarter of 2023. The Department is committed to progressing the major building project for the Gaelscoil and to assisting the school to maintain and expand upon its existing accommodation pending the delivery of the new accommodation.

Covid-19 Pandemic

Deputy Pat Buckley

I am here to speak on behalf of family members regarding the CareChoice nursing home in Ballynoe in County Cork. I wish to refer to some of the correspondence I have received and then the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, will know exactly where I am coming from and how frustrated the families are. I was told that the following are some of the concerns families have regarding the CareChoice nursing home in Ballynoe in County Cork. During the Covid-19 pandemic in 2020, it was stated that this home was well managed in respect of infection control as well as the maintaining of communication. The provision of updates to family members was also very good. Families, however, have concerns regarding how this nursing home in Ballynoe was managed from Monday, 14 December 2020. Many of these concerns are reflected in what has been expressed by other families who lost loved ones in this and other nursing homes in the county.

Concern has been expressed as to why, on Friday, 14 December 2020, the director of nursing left her position, two senior clinical nurses left their positions and the assistant director of nursing also stepped down from her position in this nursing home. There were also misgivings regarding the residents having been moved out of their rooms without families being aware of this development. Some residents were moved several times. To this day, some families do not even know what room or part of the nursing home their loved ones died in. Equally, disquiet has also been expressed that some families were informed that their loved ones had tested positive for Covid-19 while others were not. Some found this out accidentally from a carer during a phone call, while others only found out when their loved ones died. Some families also have questions as to why their loved ones' remains were not released to the funeral home until two days after their deaths. In addition, some of the families are also concerned about the lack of communication, phone calls not having been answered, promised phone calls having not been received from the director of nursing and that medical updates on their loved ones were all similar and standard updates. In one case, a family member was given a medical update by the director of nursing on another resident and not on their family member.

More concerns were raised about the obvious lack of staff from Sunday, 31 January 2021, and about the impact this had on the care and well-being of the residents. The families were also extremely concerned, shocked and upset by what was revealed by the whistle-blowers at a later date on the "RTÉ Investigates" programme. Major concerns were also expressed regarding how residents were cared for. Families also learned that on Tuesday, 2 February 2021, a staff member contacted HSE and the Minister for Health, Deputy Donnelly, begging for help and for someone to come and save the residents. No one came in and lives were lost that could have been saved with the proper help. This plea for help should have set alarm bells ringing, but the HSE handled this situation by emailing the home.

Before staff made this call, there were five deaths. On Tuesday, 2 February 2021, the day of the call for help, there were three deaths. After this date, there were a further 19 deaths in the home. There was a total of 27 deaths, 22 of which were over a 12-day period between 31 January and 11 February 2021.

The lack of response and help from the Government has forced families to go to the courts to get access to their late family members' records which the nursing homes are refusing access to, and also to get this Government to put in place a public inquiry that is needed into these deaths. There is concern that private nursing homes do not come under the Freedom of Information Acts and that private nursing homes are a law unto themselves in regards to accountability. A HIQA report request by the Minister of State at the Department of Health, Deputy Butler, has caused concern and upset to families, as when the families saw a copy under the Freedom of Information Acts it was heavily redacted. The question is, "Why?" What is being held back from the families and what has been covered up?

These are the concerns of some family members. They have not got accountability. They have not got the responses. What they are looking for is an independent public inquiry, specifically, on Ballynoe nursing home or the nursing homes in east Cork. I await the Minister of State's response.

Deputy Anne Rabbitte

I thank Deputy Buckley for raising the issue. I am taking it on behalf of the Minister of State at the Department of Health, Deputy Butler.

I would also like to take this opportunity to reiterate my sincere sympathies to all those whose loved ones passed away in nursing homes, the one the Deputy raises here but nationwide as well, during the pandemic.

I want to emphasise that quality care and patient safety is a priority for the Government, and the delivery of safe, high-quality services is of paramount importance and focus. Nursing home providers are ultimately responsible for the safe care of their residents.

The Covid-19 pandemic has presented one of the greatest and most wide-ranging public health challenges internationally in recent history. International evidence shows that the virus disproportionately impacts older people, and people living in long-term residential care facilities have been identified as particularly vulnerable to Covid-19 by the World Health Organization.

Recognising the particular vulnerability of nursing home settings, the State quickly put in place a comprehensive package of supports for nursing homes in line with the National Public Health Emergency Team, NPHET, recommendations in early 2020 and many of these supports remain active. These include more than €145 million provided under the temporary assistance payment scheme, TAPS, with outbreak assistance extended up to December 2022. Other supports included: free personal protection equipment; Covid-19 regional response teams; public health and infection prevention and control advice and guidance; accommodation support; and serial testing for staff. Nursing home residents were also the first to be vaccinated under the State vaccination programme.

Since the start of the pandemic there has been significant and ongoing consideration of the impact of Covid-19 and the evolution of the response to it, as evidence and knowledge emerged, and as national and international understanding of the virus evolved. Throughout, this has included a specific and sustained focus on older persons, in particular, those resident in nursing homes. Various examinations and reports with a focus on Covid-19, its impact on nursing homes and the pandemic learnings that can inform future policy, regulation and the model of care for older persons have been undertaken.

In particular, the independent Covid-19 nursing homes expert panel was established in May 2020 to examine the complex issues surrounding the management of Covid-19, and to provide real-time learnings and recommendations to inform the ongoing approach to the management and mitigation of risk to older persons resident in nursing homes as the pandemic evolved.

The Taoiseach has indicated that a comprehensive evaluation of how the country managed Covid-19 will provide an opportunity to learn lessons from our experiences in dealing with a pandemic. This will help ensure that we are in a better, stronger position if another pandemic or another similar-type emergency arrives. Separately, the Minister has also asked his Department to consider the options available for undertaking a potential review of the management and impact of Covid-19 in nursing homes, taking account of the experience of, and learnings from, other review processes undertaken in recent years.

Deputy Pat Buckley

I tabled a parliamentary question on this as well. It states, "Separately, the Minister for Health has stated that he believes that a review of the management and impact of COVID-19 in nursing homes is warranted".

The Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, mentioned in her response the €145 million provided under the temporary assistance payment scheme. Some €145 million is spent and 27 families in this nursing home still have not got a response to any of their questions. Having the HSE investigate itself is like the Garda investigating the Garda; it does not work.

These families tried their best to be diplomatic. They tried to engage with the Minister for Health. The families mention that Ballynoe is in Cork, the Taoiseach's county, and yet he has not met with these families and the families of other Cork nursing homes. There is a great deal in this.

What I am calling for here is that the Minister with responsibility for this issue engages with the families and also listens to them because I know what they want. All they want is answers. The redacting of information under the Freedom of Information Act for family members must be soul-destroying when they are only looking for simple answers as to how their mother died, where did their dad die and whether it was in the same room as they were all the time. These are simple questions.

When one gets people so angry on this, it also gives it an air of suspicion, and the more one covers it up the more suspicious people get. That is why these people and these families asked me on their behalf.

We are coming into Christmas and here we are talking about Covid and deaths of elderly people and the most vulnerable again. All these families want is answers and they are asking for an independent public inquiry into what happened in this nursing home.

Deputy Anne Rabbitte

I, again, thank the Deputy for raising this matter and being the voice of the families on whose behalf he stands here before us.

I understand the significant particular impact that Covid-19 had on families who lost loved ones in nursing homes. My colleagues, the Minister, Deputy Stephen Donnelly, and the Minister of State, Deputy Butler, have met with some of these families and have heard first-hand of their experiences. We all remember how difficult that period was when visiting had to be restricted and when normal grieving and funeral processes had to be set aside.

One of the most important things we can take from experiences over the past two years is our learning and our understanding of the challenges facing the nursing home sector and how we can enhance and strengthen the quality of care. The independent Covid-19 nursing home expert panel produced a substantial package of 86 recommendations. These included: immediate actions required at the time for ongoing protection and support for nursing home residents during the pandemic; and medium and longer term recommendations on broader systems reforms to enhance and better integrate nursing home care and older persons care more broadly.

Many of the short and medium-term recommendations have already been implemented and progress has been made on reform, including the draft legislation to provide HIQA with the new enforcement powers published in October. The patient advocacy service commenced roll-out in private nursing homes in November 2022 and amendment regulations have been published to standardise and enhance requirements for a complaints process. The findings of the first National Nursing Home Experience Survey were published in November 2022 and give us essential insights on the views of residents and their families.

I confirm that the Minister, Deputy Stephen Donnelly, and the Minister of State, Deputy Butler, are fully committed to further reform to ensure an improved quality of service and experience for individuals using health and social care services into the future.

I wish to conclude by offering my sympathies to the families that the Deputy speaks about.

Housing Schemes

Deputy Colm Burke

This is not the remit of the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte. I thank Deputy Rabbitte for all the work she has done on the housing area. It is unfortunate, on the second last day before we finish up, that the Minister of State is asked to deal with this housing issue. It is an extremely important issue.

There are a large number of people getting caught in the middle-income groups. They cannot get bank loans and they cannot get a local authority house. We have raised a criterion on qualifying for a local authority houses but what is frustrating - it is one of a number of problems I have had over the past number of months - is the timescale in considering loan applications by local authorities.

It is too much of a delay. People have lost purchases because there was a substantial delay in signing off loan applications by the local authorities.

We must also look at the income criteria. In the past two weeks I had a case sent to me in which the people involved met all of the qualifying criteria. They were saving very hard. They were paying rent of €1,600 per month. If they had been able to draw down the loan they applied for, they would have ended up making repayments of €1,200 a month but they were refused. I do not understand why this is happening. My understanding is that a large number of applications are being turned down by local authorities throughout the country because of the smallest of issues. We need to look at all of the local authorities and have a full review to see what is the timescale from when an application is received to a decision being made. What are the criteria local authorities are using to turn down loan applications?

In another case a person was turned down who had full capacity to make the repayments that would be required. He was turned down because three or four years ago he defaulted on the repayment of a personal loan for three months. That loan was fully cleared. It is accepted that he did default because he ran into difficulties when changing jobs and he did not pay. Now it is being taken as an excuse for not giving him a home loan.

These are all people who are working hard. They are saving. They are trying to put the package together for themselves so they will not be dependent on the State. Here we are. These are people who are not reliant on the housing assistance payment, HAP. They are not reliant on local authority support for the rent they pay. We are turning down their loan applications. I want the Department to review what has happened over the past 12 months with regard to loan applications. How many loan applications were made? How many were turned down? Is there a need for a more detailed review of local authorities on an ongoing basis with regard to home loans?

I recall acting as solicitor in the purchase of three houses a week. One man with four young children wanted to buy a semi-detached house. The deposit on the house was £100, which he did not have. He was able to borrow it from the bank and buy a three-bedroom semi-detached house. We now have a situation whereby if the same person came in to me in the morning with €100,000 in the bank a local authority would not even consider him for a loan. We need to look at this. How can we facilitate people who are making every effort to look after themselves and not be dependent on the State when we find the State is not giving them the support they require?

Deputy Anne Rabbitte

The Deputy will appreciate that I am taking this on behalf of the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage. As part of Housing for All, a newly expanded local authority home loan was launched in January 2022. Like previous local authority mortgages, such as its predecessor the Rebuilding Ireland home loan, it is a Government-backed mortgage for first-time buyers and other eligible applicants delivered through local authorities. The scheme provides mortgage financing for those who are unable to secure a sufficient commercial loan.

The Department has no direct role in processing individual applications. The final decision on loan approval is a matter for the relevant local authority and its credit committee. Decisions on all housing loan applications must be made in accordance with the regulations establishing the scheme and the credit policy that underpins the scheme in order to ensure prudence and consistency in approaches in the best interests of borrowers and local authorities.

The Housing Agency provides a central support service that assesses applications on behalf of local authorities and makes recommendations to the authorities to approve or refuse applications. Between January 2022 and November 2022, 2,138 applications, including 214 Rebuilding Ireland home loan applications, were processed by the Housing Agency. Of these, 90 were invalid applications. Of the 2,048 valid applications assessed 889, which is 43%, were recommended for approval and 1,169, which is 57%, were recommended for decline.

Regarding the level of refusals, it is important to note that approval for the scheme requires the applicant to be eligible for the scheme and capable of repaying the money borrowed. There are several reasons refusals can occur. Applicants may not meet the eligibility criteria, such as being under certain income limits. Even if they meet the eligibility parameters, they may have issues with their credit history or their repayment capacity may not be enough to meet the monthly repayments required on the mortgage.

It is inherent in a mortgage scheme that there will be refusals, particularly for a scheme aimed at those on relatively lower incomes who were unable to source a sufficient mortgage from a bank. It is important to protect both the State and the borrower from taking on unsustainable mortgages. This is the function of credit policy and the credit assessment process. The Department closely monitors the local authority home loan. It offers the assistance or guidance that is required to support the processing of these loans. The Minister is committed to ensuring that the local authority home loan remains an effective support for homeownership for first-time buyers.

The Deputy has made some valuable points. As a former banker who is a qualified financial adviser, I know that a timescale can be put in place. For the mortgages that are approved there is nothing wrong with having approval in principle. This allows flexibility. We know it takes time to get a mortgage approved. Once it is approved it should be good enough as approval in principle for a minimum of six months so the person can shop around or see what is available. It should not be specific to one location or one particular property. There could be choice. We should look at the income criteria and make easy-step manuals available for people so they are able to do a ready reckoning and know what criteria they need to meet as part of the submission so it is not declined immediately and there is a mechanism to appeal in the system.

Deputy Colm Burke

The figures the Minister of State produced are interesting. There is a 57% refusal rate. This is 57% throughout the entire country. We must remember this is an average. I understand that the refusal rates of certain local authorities are as high as 70%. This is the concern I have. If the average is 57%, it means some local authorities are proactive in assisting people. I ask that the Department look at the local authorities where the percentage is much higher than the average of 57%. I still think 57% is a very high refusal rate. We need to look at this.

If we build a local authority house, and this is not a criticism of people who avail of local authority housing, it costs the State €300,000 on average. This is being provided by the State. Here are people who are saving and once they get the mortgage they will not be dependent on the State for support. We need to be far more proactive in trying to see how we can streamline this and ensure that local authorities do not delay processing loan applications. We must also ensure that common criteria are applied by all local authorities and that one does not have a 70% refusal rate while another has a 35% refusal rate. This issue needs to be looked at.

Deputy Anne Rabbitte

I thank the Deputy again. I have listened to the issues he has raised. Local authority mortgage lending has been successful to date. Between February 2018 and September 2022, approximately €517 million was drawn down by almost 3,100 borrowers through the Rebuilding Ireland home loan and the local authority home loan. Of this €517 million, €30 million was drawn down by 72 borrowers under the new local authority home loan up to September 2022. It is important to note the approval rate has no direct comparator in commercial bank lending as bank refusals are not available by comparison. We cannot see whether local authority home loan refusals are relatively high. A detailed credit assessment process is required to ensure that applicants do not take on unsustainable debt. I will take on board what the Deputy has asked regarding whether there could be a county-by-county assessment to see whether there is standardisation throughout the country. I will bring this to the attention of the Minister, Deputy O'Brien.

Deputy Colm Burke

I appreciate that the Minister of State is dealing with this matter. I am sure she is familiar with this very important issue in her area. We have many people who are working very hard to meet the criteria and ensure they do not have to rent for the rest of their lives.

Housing Policy

Deputy Chris Andrews

As the Minister of State will be aware, Part V of the Planning and Development Act 2000 has been the backbone of the provision of much-needed social housing stock across the State for many years. Without the requirement that each private developer provides a percentage of social housing for the local authority, it is hard to imagine how much worse off the housing crisis would be. These housing units have been essential in trying to protect inner-city communities that are being pushed out by big high-tech companies.

The Government does not like to hear any criticism of high-tech companies, but there is another view of the high-tech companies in the inner-city community of Pearse House, Markievicz House and Mercer House and this is due to the huge, negative impact these companies have had on housing for the local community. To see developers using loopholes in outdated legislation is infuriating for local communities in the city who, time and again, feel forgotten and left behind by the State. The moment the previous Minister scrapped the height guidelines in 2018, it created a hole in housing legislation for developers to exploit and that is exactly what they are doing.

Two years ago, I introduced a Bill aimed at plugging this hole, blocking this exploitation and ensuring there would be fair treatment of the local community and developers building homes. My proposal was on foot of a local campaign in Ringsend that was built around the planning permission that was granted for the development of a seven-storey apartment block on York Road, Ringsend. Having been granted planning permission for the seven-storey block, the developer was exempt from providing social units. He then reapplied for planning permission to change the build to a 15-storey apartment block. Had the developer been successful in this application, it would have resulted in 48 new homes and no public housing for the local community. This application was blocked because of the amazing campaign put together by the local community in Ringsend.

In a housing crisis, to allow such blatant dodging of Part V requirements is bonkers. My Bill was opposed at the time with the then Minister saying that York Road was a one-off development and that no other developments would use this loophole. Since then, I am aware of developments on Lime Street and Sandwith Street both of which used the size of the site to be exempt from providing any social units. Both these developments are within 15 minutes of Leinster House. How many examples of the use of this loophole are seen throughout the State? I do not know, but I can guarantee you if they are being built 15 minutes away from the Dáil, they are being built right across the State, particularly in built-up urban areas.

What happened on York Road was certainly not a one-off. Will the Government review the position it has taken in the past and address the need to update this flawed legislation, thereby ensuring the gap that developers use to exploit loopholes in the planning laws are closed? If there is already an exemption for small developments of fewer than ten homes, why is there also an exemption based on the area on the ground? That is the loophole developers are using.

Deputy Anne Rabbitte

I thank the Deputy for tabling this Topical Issue matter. Again, I am taking this matter on behalf of the Minister, Deputy O'Brien. The primary objective of Part V of the Planning and Development Act 2000 is to "ensure an adequate supply of housing for all sectors of the existing and future population". Accordingly, Part V allows local authorities to purchase a percentage of land, at less than the enhanced market value, and use it for social, affordable and cost rental housing. The Part V requirement is currently 20%, with no less than half of this to be used for social housing and the remainder for affordable and cost rental as the local authority deems appropriate.

That said, section 97 of the 2000 Act also provides for an exemption to Part V for developments comprising four or fewer houses or developments on land of less than 0.1 hectare. The purpose of the exemption is to help maintain housing output and supply. A relatively small number of sites in urban areas, smaller than 0.1 hectares comprising a development of five or more houses, have been granted exemptions. However, without these exemptions, the developments would probably have been rendered unviable because of the cost of including social and affordable homes and much needed housing supply would not have been delivered. Such sites already face potentially substantial additional costs in urban settings given the machinery restrictions associated with infill sites, the need to stabilise existing adjoining buildings and conservation requirements.

The Government is committed to achieving compact urban growth and making our towns and cities more sustainable and attractive places for investment and for people to live and work. Urban sprawl and the ribbon development that has blighted parts of our countryside need to be consigned to the past. The national planning framework targets a significant proportion of future urban development on infill or brownfield sites within the built footprint of existing urban areas. In this context, prioritising the development of smaller sites and providing a policy framework and conditions that incentivise rather than stifle such developments is critical.

The Part V exemption is a key enabler in this regard. It facilitates the development of very small brownfield sites and in turn creates new homes, builds economic activity and reduces social decay. Removing the exemption will likely prevent such sites being developed. In urban settings, these sites tend to be already serviced, making them ideal for development. The lack of suitable serviced sites is generally understood as one of the primary obstacles to housing delivery. Moreover, removing the exemption may only marginally increase the capture of Part V units in dense urban locations, including in Dublin city, where brownfield and infill development on sites of 0.1 hectare or less takes place.

Accordingly, given the limited additional return of social and affordable housing that would result from removing the exemption, coupled with the potential for unintended consequences and undermining housing supply, I suggest the exemption in respect of such developments and sites should be retained. However, there may be merit in considering the potential to modify the exemption and the scope for limiting it in larger urban areas, including Dublin, where urban density guidelines and changes to height restrictions may mean that these sites can contain larger numbers of dwellings than was previously foreseen. To this end, I have asked the Housing Agency to consider the scope and merit, if any, of modifying the current Part V exemptions. The conclusions from this work will be considered in the context of other changes that may be brought forward on Part V in due course.

Deputy Chris Andrews

The last few sentences of the Minister of State's response provided some bit of hope, because there is clearly an issue around developments being exempted due to the site being 0.1 hectares. The scrapping of height restrictions has led to applications for ten- and 15-storey buildings. There was an application for a 15-storey building in Ringsend with public housing available on the site but that did not happen. We need to ensure this loophole is closed. There are other sites next to Pearse House flats, which are not too far from here, and Leo Fitzgerald House that are exempt from the Part V provision of public housing. It means local communities and families will miss out. There are many cases of three generations of families living in two-bedroom flats, such as in Pearse House.

In one case, five people were living in a one-bedroom flat in Markievicz House until very recently. That is replicated right across the city. Conditions are overcrowded in many flats such as those on Rathmines Avenue, in Mercer House and Whitefriar Gardens. The overcrowding is completely unacceptable and it is equally unacceptable that developers are allowed to exploit loopholes in the legislation to get out of their responsibility to provide public housing for the local community.

I acknowledge the work the Minister of State has done. I know she is here regularly. The Minister of State certainly deserves a Christmas break because she has got to be one of the most hard-working Ministers around. Gabhaim buíochas léi and I wish her a happy Christmas.

Deputy Anne Rabbitte

I thank the Deputy. Importantly, the Part V exemption supports compact growth and the first of the ten national strategic outcomes of the national planning framework. It is also critical to the transition to a low-carbon and climate-resilient society as outlined in the Climate Action Plan 2019. It underpins successful delivery of Housing for All in helping meet housing supply targets, incentivising the regeneration of small sites in towns and cities and making housing more affordable and sustainable in the longer term. The exemption facilitates development of very small brownfield and infield sites in particular, in turn creating new homes, regenerating inner-city areas, meeting housing needs, building economic activity and reducing social decay. While exemptions for the development of five or more houses on sites of 0.1 ha or less are more prevalent in larger urban settings rather than rural ones, the number of such exemptions granted is still quite low. Removing the exemption would probably only marginally increase the yield of social and affordable housing for the State, even in Dublin city, and may result in unintended consequences and stifle much-needed development in housing supply. However, as the Minister has outlined earlier, the Housing Agency has been asked to consider the matter with a particular focus on larger urban areas and report back with its conclusion. His Department will consider actions and next steps.

I wish the Deputy and everybody in the House a happy Christmas and I thank the Acting Chair for all his work.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Bernard J. Durkan)

Go raibh maith agat, a Aire Stáit.