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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 9 Mar 2023

Vol. 1035 No. 3

Ceisteanna ó Cheannairí - Leaders' Questions

Táimid ag maireachtáil i lár ghéarchéim tithíochta de bharr pholasaí an Rialtais. Bhí an cinneadh deireadh a chur leis an gcosc ar dhíshealbhú fuar agus cadránta. Tá údaráis áitiúla ag rá le teaghlaigh, is é sin, na tionóntaí sin a bheidh díshealbhaithe, nach bhfuil áit ar bith acu le cur fúthu. Tá siad tréigthe ag an Rialtas seo.

We are living in the middle of a housing emergency caused by Government actions and inaction, and the Government's latest policy is to end the eviction ban that was helping to keep the roofs over the heads of so many workers and families. Given the choice between facilitating wealthy investment funds and corporate landlords, or putting the needs of ordinary people first, this Government chose to stand on the side of landlords and investment funds. That is where its priority is.

Many families, through no fault of their own, face eviction now because of this Government. These are people who paid their rent on time, month after month, year after year. These are people who were already paying sky-high rents. Now, there are far too few rental properties on the market for them to find and call their home. They cannot afford to save to buy, and those who might be able to buy in a normal housing market cannot afford the prices that are being asked in our broken one. These people just want somewhere to call home but instead of helping these people, the Government has taken a cold and cruel decision to make people homeless. Those people being made homeless are being told by their local councils that they have no emergency accommodation for them. I have a letter from one of these councils, namely, South Dublin County Council, that was sent to my colleague, Deputy Ward, and it is very clear. It refers to one family who found themselves hopeless. This family is made up of one adult and two children. The council told the family that it has no emergency accommodation for them. The Dublin Region Homeless Executive told the family there is no available accommodation for them. This is before the eviction ban has even been lifted. The family were told by the council to present at a Garda station for a safe place to stay.

This is what is happening on the Tánaiste's watch. This is what is happening under this Government. Families are now being told by local authorities that where they need to go to stay safe is the local Garda station. Yet, the Tánaiste comes in here and trots out the same slogans, week after week, that Fianna Fáil is the party of homeownership. It is complete and utter nonsense.

This is a wealthy country but Government decision after decision has taken the basic right of having a roof over one's head away from an entire generation of people. Thousands of young people cannot afford to buy. People feel trapped in a cycle of cramped flat shares and sky-high rents and of never being able to save for a deposit no matter how hard they try or how many hours they work.

People are putting their lives on hold because they cannot find a place to call home. Thousands of renters are worried sick today about getting a call from their landlords with the devastating news that their lives are going to be turned upside down because they are going to be issued with an eviction notice.

More people are being, and will be, evicted because of the decisions taken by the Tánaiste and Cabinet this week. What are families are being told? They are being told there is no accommodation in the emergency system. They are being told that they should present to their local Garda station to keep themselves safe in the year of 2023. Shame on this Government.

Yesterday, our party leader, an Teachta McDonald, asked the Taoiseach what these families who are going to be presenting as homeless when Government lifts this ban are going to do? Where are they to go? He would not answer, but maybe the Tánaiste will answer. Where are these families to go? Is it to their local Garda station? That is what the local authorities are telling them because is no emergency accommodation in the system.

Go bunúsach, is é atá i gceist ag páirtí an Teachta, Sinn Féin, ná a bheith ar gach taobh den scéal seo. Is é Tadhg an Dá Thaobh an teideal is oiriúnaí dá pháirtí ó thaobh chúrsaí tithíochta de. Labhraíonn an Teachta gach aon lá faoin ngéarchéim ina bhfuilimid. Cad a dhéanann Sinn Féin áfach? Bíonn sé i gcoinne gach aon Acht a thagann isteach sa Teach seo chun an scéal a fheabhsú. Sin í fírinne na ceiste seo.

Deputy Doherty talks about me coming in every day and trotting out slogans. The only people who come in here trotting out populist sound bites with regard to housing is the said Deputy and his party. I am interested in solutions to the housing crisis, and we do have a housing crisis. I will say this to the Deputy. We decided in Fianna Fáil over the last two and a half years to take the portfolio of housing to make a difference. Close to 10,000 social houses were delivered last year. Close to 12,000 social houses will be delivered 2023. That is the highest figure on social housing since 1975.

The Deputy spoke about young buyers and asked what we are doing for young people who want to buy a house. The largest number of first-time buyers occurred last year when we reached 30,000 new builds in housing. The corner was turned last year. That went from 20,000 to 30,000 in one year, which is a massive increase in building in terms of new houses. How many young buyers and first-time buyers benefitted from the help-to-buy scheme? It was 33,000. What was Sinn Féin's position on that? It opposed it. The Deputy talks in this Chamber about helping young buyers and young purchasers; Sinn Féin opposed it. It opposed to first home scheme and the Land Development Agency. It kept on opposing and then to make it worse, in local authorities around the country, it opposed housing scheme after housing scheme. The Deputy talks out of both sides of his mouth on this. When it comes to the eviction ban-----

Where are they going to go?

The Tánaiste is talking out of both sides of his arse.

-----what did Deputy Ó Broin say?

Where are they going to go?

Where are they going to go next Christmas? What did Deputy Ó Broin say yesterday on "Morning Ireland"? What did the Deputy say in a Private Members' motion debate only recently? What did he say? He said we should end it at the end of the year, in December.

Where is the honesty in that? Is the Deputy seriously suggesting that Sinn Féin would have allowed the rent ban to be lifted in December, days after Christmas Day? That is the kind of dishonesty-----

We gave the Tánaiste nine months to get his act together.

-----that I find reprehensible in terms of debating the housing crisis, because it is a crisis. Why did we decide to lift the ban?

(Interruptions).

We do not want to make the situation worse. The Deputy spat out that the Government is interested in the landlords. I heard Deputy Ó Broin on "The Pat Kenny Show" this morning saying he talks to landlords all the time. It is the Tadhg an Dá Thaobh syndrome. The Deputy has been in here demonising landlords for the last three or four years.

They are paying separately.

Nobody is doing that, though.

He wants them out of the market, but then-----

Who is going to rent the houses?

-----up comes Sinn Féin's housing spokesperson saying he is a very reasonable man, he will talk to landlords and he is even talking to developers. Deputy Doherty will come in and say we are all developer-led and corporate investment-led. The hypocrisy of it spews out of what he is saying-----

(Interruptions).

-----but it has nothing to do with the reality of delivering on the ground.

The Tánaiste, without interruption-----

It is like an acting school today.

The Tánaiste, without interruption from anyone.

Families are being told to go to the Garda station.

The bottom line here is that we need supply.

The Government is making people go to the Garda station.

That is the fundamental way to deal with this crisis. In the context of the rental sector-----

How long has the Tánaiste been in government?

-----we need to do two things. We need to attract more people into it. We need more people to provide housing for rent. If the rent eviction ban were to continue for the next two years, supply would be the issue. If we are honest, that is what we would have to do, and not to next December, as Deputy Doherty is pretending, because he knows damn well it would not be lifted in December. It would have to go the full two years. Supply is the issue-----

Go raibh maith agat, a Thánaiste. Tá an t-am caite.

It would irreparably damage supply to the rental market, which would be to the detriment of people who would end up homeless and to the detriment of people seeking housing.

In the Tánaiste's four-minute diatribe, he did not answer the question I put to him, or the question an Teachta McDonald put to the Taoiseach yesterday. Where are these individuals going to go? The Tánaiste may want to focus on me or Deputy Ó Broin or whatever; I am focusing on people like this parent with two children who South Dublin County Council told there is no emergency accommodation available in that local authority. The Dublin Regional Homeless Executive said there is no available accommodation in the county for their family size. The local authority said there are no options and no vacancies in the hotel system and that those constituents should present to their local Garda station for a safe place to stay or ask family or friends. If it were not for the intervention of my colleague, Deputy Ward, that is exactly where that family would be - on the floor of a Garda station. This is before the Government made the cruel and heartless decision to lift the ban.

Thousands of evictions will come live in the next number of weeks and months. I have a simple question for the Tánaiste. Where are people going to go? Local authority after local authority is telling us there is no emergency accommodation.

The Government has made a conscious decision to make them homeless, knowing there is nowhere for them to go.

Deputy, please.

That is the reality and the Tánaiste can spin it as much as he wants. Answer the question. Where are these families supposed to go?

We have already decided, and the Deputy knows this too, on immediate measures for more than 3,000 additional homes to be provided through 1,500 acquisitions-----

They are being evicted now.

-----in the context of the in situ directive the Minister is issuing to the local authorities. Basically, where a person is in difficulty or under threat of eviction the local authorities can purchase that house.

Some 1,500 has been provided for. A further 1,000 houses or apartments are to be leased, in addition to those already provided for in Housing for All as a result of Cabinet decisions last Tuesday. With the capital advance leasing facility, CALF, funding adjustments another 1,000 units are to be provided, again facilitating those who could be in difficulty. There is also the opportunity-to-buy initiative on top of that whereby first call would be on the tenant, or after that an approved-----

In the real world they are being told-----

The Deputy asked the question and I am giving the answer.

In the real world they are told to go to a Garda station.

The Deputy asked the question and I am giving the answer. In the real world the Deputy said it was dealt with-----

(Interruptions).

Will Deputy Doherty-----

That was dealt with. The Deputy said it was dealt with.

Will Deputy Doherty please have some respect for the Chair.

The opportunity for a first refusal will be given to the tenant and then to an approved housing body. I believe this is a very important initiative in terms of enabling people to have alternatives to being homeless. Plus, there is the transition to a cost-rental option also.

They are not in a position to buy a house if they are sleeping in a Garda station.

(Interruptions).

Would Deputies like me to suspend the House if they are to keep up these interruptions?

Would Deputies like me to suspend the House? That is what I will do if Members persist.

It is a very serious matter.

Do not provoke me, please.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan said that Green Party values were not represented when the coalition leaders agreed to lift the eviction ban. Were Fianna Fáil values represented in the room when the coalition leaders took that decision? This may seem like a redundant question given that the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage, Deputy Darragh O'Brien, is a member of Fianna Fáil, but I believe that people, including the Tánaiste's own supporters, would like to know. How is it that Fianna Fáil, which is rightly proud of its previous record on housing generations between the 1930s and the 1970s, is now endorsing homelessness not housing? The party's own Minister, Deputy Darragh O'Brien, has been clear that homelessness will increase as result of this decision. There is no debate about that. We know the consequences will be desperate, especially for children who suffer long-lasting damage when they become trapped in insecure and unsuitable emergency accommodation. This is why it is important to remember that what the Government is doing is a choice. The Government is not being forced to do this and there are other options.

I have listened with an increasing sense of disgust and utter disbelief to the attempts to justify this shameful decision. Who does the Tánaiste think he is kidding? The half-baked plan that the Government has announced, and which the Tánaiste claims will support tenants and landlords, will not be in place for many months, and that is an optimistic appraisal. For one, we are told that landlords will be compelled to give their tenants first refusal when they sell, yet nobody in government can tell us when that legislation will be enacted or even drafted. Second, we are told that approved housing bodies will be able to craft bespoke, cost-rental agreements for tenants at risk of homelessness. Again, nobody knows when this will be up and running.

It is also unclear why, if the Government wanted to introduce these supports, they are not ready to go. What was the Government doing for the duration of the eviction ban? Why were the draft outlines of these supports only cobbled together at the Cabinet meeting on Tuesday? The lack of respect for those people about to become homeless is truly astounding. The Government has clearly done zero planning for this and it is making it up as they go along.

Thousands of people, including extremely vulnerable children, are going to be made homeless in three short weeks. They do not know where they are going to go, and neither does the Government.

I have just two questions for the Tánaiste. Were Fianna Fáil values represented in the room when it was decided to end the eviction ban? Is the Tánaiste aware of any other housing Minister in the history of the State who has openly admitted to deliberately opting to making people homeless?

First, I congratulate the Deputy on her elevation as leader of the Social Democrats. I did not get the opportunity to do so in the House to date, and I wish her the very best in that regard.

Fianna Fáil values were reflected when we decided to form the Government and take on the housing portfolio, notwithstanding the challenges that had built up over the years, and to make a real difference. That difference is already manifest in the fact that last year close to 10,000 social homes were delivered. That is the highest since 1975. I made it a priority that we would build social houses and we are turning the corner in terms of social housing. It is the highest number since 1975.

This year, through a combination of new build, leasing, and acquisitions, we are targeting 12,000 social houses to be delivered. In addition to that, we must help young people who value homeownership and who want to own their own homes. We will do this through a variety of schemes that we have introduced from the Affordable Housing Act right through to the help-to-buy scheme which was brought in by the previous Government and the first home scheme. We have improved the help-to-buy scheme and 33,000 young people have benefited from the help-to-buy scheme. More than 1,100 people have benefited from the first home scheme. I point out to the Deputy that her party opposed both schemes. Her party opposed the Affordable Housing Act. It is fine that the party can oppose, but it needs to come up with real solutions because ultimately the solution here is supply.

No one in this House has a monopoly on commitment to housing, and the Deputy's party does not. The Deputy should resist the temptation to suggest that everyone on this side of the House is heartless, cruel, and could not care less.

That is the issue.

That is not fair and it does not add up. I have made housing the priority of this Government and, along with my colleagues in government, the three parties have said that the three key priorities are housing, health reform, and planning change. Look at the variety of schemes that we have introduced on housing. We have the all new Croí Cónaithe scheme. We introduced the Land Development Agency, which again the Deputy's party opposed. By any yardstick, going from 20,000 houses to 30,000 houses was a significant turning of the corner last year, albeit it is still all too low and we have to do more. This was notwithstanding Covid-19 during the first two years of Government when we had lock downs and so on. Those are the facts that one cannot just dismiss.

The popular decision would have been to keep the eviction ban going. That would be popular but it would not have been a sustainable position to adopt in terms of the supply question. We would have made it worse for people who would have faced further difficulty in getting access to housing. That was the dilemma. People are not coming into the rental market and people are leaving the rental market.

The Tánaiste's time is up.

The advice is very strong from those with a degree of experience of and expertise in the housing market that if we extend the ban, it would damage and undermine the prospects of people getting homes into the future.

I should not need to remind the Tánaiste that he is in government, and not the Social Democrats. The Tánaiste talks about the things we oppose. Imagine if we had supported the Government's decisions on housing. That is what has led us here. We opposed the Government's decisions because we believe they are wrong. It is not about what we think. The evidence is in the number of people who are homeless. There are 12,000 people homeless and we are looking at an additional 3,000 homes gone in three weeks' time. We do not know how many people that is and we do not know how many children that is. We are not trying to hide the fact that we oppose the Government's suggested legislation on housing. It is not working. This decision will make it worse, and not better. I am asking if Fianna Fáil's traditional values are represented in the decision to end an eviction ban in the middle of a housing crisis, when all of the measures the Tánaiste is saying will help the situation have yet to be ironed out. We do not even know when they will be introduced. The Tánaiste is explaining them as if they will work and as if they will be introduced before the ban is lifted. That has not happened. It is clear to everybody that the Tánaiste is making it up as he goes along. Will he please consider reversing this decision before 3,000 more households are forced into homelessness?

It was this Government that introduced the eviction ban.

Under pressure to do so.

This Government introduced an eviction ban for the first time in history of the State. Everybody in this House said that it should be temporary to one degree or another. There is terrible hypocrisy in this debate.

Sinn Féin said that we should lift it at Christmas time, a couple of days after Christmas Day. That is the stated position of Sinn Féin. How dishonest is that?

The Tánaiste is responding to the Social Democrats this time.

Deputy Cairns more or less said that it does not matter what they say but of course it matters. There is an obligation on everyone in the House. If Deputies oppose, they should come up with solutions. They should come up with ideas.

But they do not.

We do and the Government votes them all down.

The Government has voted them all down.

I do not understand how the Deputy, in reference to the help-to-buy scheme, which helped 33,000 young purchasers, can just dismiss it and oppose it. It helped young people to buy a house. Maybe the Deputy is against home ownership. I do not know if that is her position.

I would make the point in respect of leasing that there will be 1,000 units following adjustments to the CALF, and 1,500 units by way of the tenant in situ policy. We are basically saying to the local authorities that if someone is in danger of homelessness now, they should buy the house. That will go out as a directive and a circular to the local authorities. That is the immediate response.

The Government's decision to lift the ban on evictions is absolutely unforgivable. Rather than engaging in constant deflection, justification and enunciating the Government's supposed successes in housing policy or its plans for the future, the Tánaiste needs to very simply tell the people who are facing homelessness what they are going to do. Most of the people who are facing eviction want to remain anonymous because they are scared, humiliated and terrified of the consequences of their situation for their children. I will cite a few examples but will not disclose the identities of the people involved.

Jackie, whose case have I brought up previously, her husband and her two children will be in court yet again tomorrow, facing eviction from the home they have lived in all of their lives. They are above the income thresholds and are not entitled to HAP or to social housing and are deemed ineligible for the purchase of their home under the tenant in situ scheme. Let us call the next case Jackie 2. This Jackie is a mother of three who has an eviction date of mid-April. She has been on the housing list for 13 years. Where is she supposed to go? Let us call the next case Jackie 3. This Jackie has an eviction date in the next couple of months. She is in a rental accommodation scheme, RAS, tenancy and has been trying to get the council to buy her home but has no guaranteed commitment that this will happen. The next case is that of Jackie 4 whose eviction date is in May. She is in a HAP tenancy but the council said that the house is too expensive and too big for her. She is in a three-bedroom house but has, according to council, only a two-bedroom need although she uses the extra bedroom to work from home. The council will not buy the house. In the next case, Jackie 5 has an eviction date of 1 April. Her landlord, who is a major landlord and developer, is selling all of his houses and according to her, he is doing so because he plans to invest in building apartments. The council will not look at buying the house because she is "over-housed". That is to say, she has a two-bedroom need according to the council but is living in a three-bedroom house. What does the Tánaiste have to say to Jackie 1, Jackie 2, Jackie 3, Jackie 4 and Jackie 5, and the 2,000 to 3,000 other Jackies, on the day after International Women's Day? What has he got to say to them? Where are they supposed to go? There is nothing being offered to them. There are no options available and the private rental accommodation out there is absolutely unaffordable for all of those people.

First I will deal with the specifics and will come back in later in terms of how we can help people over all with housing but Deputy Boyd Barrett needs to put his shoulder to the wheel as well. I would also say, as a caveat, that the Deputy has a habit of raising individual cases and when people go checking out those cases, the story does not always turn out to be exactly as he presented it in the House. There tends to be other issues relating to it. I am not going to get into the habit of discussing individual cases across the floor of the House because this is not the correct forum. I just want to put that on the record.

I will put something on the record about the Tánaiste in a moment.

I would make two points to the Deputy. The rental market is the key market but the Deputy does not believe in landlords at all. That is fair enough.

He does not believe in a system where we-----

As in, I think they do not exist?

He does not believe in a system where we have landlords. He said that.

They exist. I believe in them.

Sorry now, let us not get too smart. This is a serious issue. It is about time Deputy Boyd Barrett's policies came under the microscope. He keeps on attacking and attacking but when it comes to the structure of our rental sector, he believes it should be all State run. That is his position. He does not believe there should be any private rental market. Correct?

No, that is not correct.

It is correct. That is what the Deputy believes. That is fair enough; he is entitled to that belief. He does not believe there should be a private rental market.

I do not believe it is the Tánaiste’s job to look after private developers. It is his job to provide public housing.

Let us not twist it now. That is the Deputy's position. My view is that we need to increase the number of houses available to let. That is what we need to do. We need to keep more of the smaller landlords in the market and we need to attract more landlords into the market. We need more people to provide-----

Investors, yes. An investor could be a person who is investing in a pension. It may not be a "big corporate" which is how the Deputy loves to label every landlord and that is part of the problem here. People are getting out because they see the kinds of attitudes that have been developed. Anyone interested in tackling homelessness in the fullness of time must provide social housing, which we are doing. We did 10,000 last year. Sinn Féin is saying that we can magic up 20,000 but one cannot magic up 20,000 new builds in one year.

The Government did not do 10,000 last year. Is the Tánaiste joking?

We delivered 10,000 in 2022-----

Is it 10,000 social houses?

Yes, between leasing, acquisitions and so on.

(Interruptions).

The figures are going up by the day.

The target this year is 12,000. We need to do more and we will. We are doing affordable but Opposition Deputies keep opposing everything we do to try to provide more housing. Deputy Boyd Barrett, it is alleged, has opposed well over 1,500 houses in his own constituency. Indeed, it could be close to 2,000.

People could be living there now.

In one case he said that it would "dampen the Victorian ambience" of the area.

Oh for God’s sake.

(Interruptions).

Then he comes in here and shouts about a housing crisis.

The Jackies he mentioned would have a far better chance of getting more sustainable housing if we all treated the housing crisis as a crisis, including Deputy Boyd Barrett. He should do that rather than engaging in nimbyism in his constituency, opposing left, right and centre. The fundamental issue, I put to the Deputy, is supply and he knows it. This measure would ultimately dampen supply in the medium term which would create more homelessness in the fullness of time. There is no question about that.

It is obvious the Tánaiste is dancing the tune of the speculators and developers. Even the Irish Government Economic and Evaluation Service, IGEES, stated there is no problem with people objecting to planning permission or putting in submissions on build-to-rent and totally unaffordable developments. In such developments, Jackie - on whom the Tánaiste quite disgracefully tried to cast aspersions-----

That is rubbish.

That is what he has actually just done.

That is not true. This is unbelievable.

(Interruptions).

Jackie has looked at 700 properties over the year in which she and her family have been threatened with eviction.

I do not know who the Deputy is talking about.

Her 13 year-old-daughter who has special needs wrote a personal note to the Tánaiste and she still has not even had the dignity of a response. It is absolutely outrageous.

The last place Jackie looked at was €2,700 per month. How is anybody supposed to afford that? Today there are 11 two-bedroom properties available in Dún Laoghaire. Does the Tánaiste know what the average rent is? It is €2,900 but the highest HAP threshold is €1,900 which means there is nothing available. That is what the Tánaiste's speculators and developers have delivered. They have delivered tens of thousands of planning permission applications they do not act on and when they build, nobody can afford them. The Tánaiste should not give us that nonsense-----

What about Cualanor, which the Deputy opposed?

What are the Jackies supposed to do? Where are they supposed to go? Has the Tánaiste got an answer for them?

I do not know any of the details relating to any of the four Jackies that the Deputy mentioned.

(Interruptions).

He said at the outset that he would not identify individuals, which is right, fair and proper but he has a habit, and I have experienced it on the floor of the House, of giving a version of stories which does not always turn out to be the comprehensive story. I will leave it at that.

Jackie's daughter wrote to the Tánaiste. Maybe he could respond to her letter?

In terms of the county council, in the case that the Deputy mentioned, it should buy the house. It is simple.

They are over the threshold. Does the Tánaiste not get that?

Councils can buy for people who are over the threshold. They should buy the house under the tenant in situ scheme. The directive is going out. The Deputy asked for an answer and I am giving him one. The Minister is issuing a directive and a circular today to local authorities to make sure-----

They are banging down their door for weeks. They are not going to do it.

Six hundred were bought.

They are waiting on an instruction from you guys.

Deputy, you keep on shouting and roaring. I put it to you that you have not answered the question in terms of more than 1,500 people objecting to it. We cannot afford-----

They are submissions on planning developments; that is it.

(Interruptions).

Fine. It is the mindset, Deputy.

There are tens of thousands of planning permissions. Give me a break. There is no shortage of planning permissons - none.

Deputy, it is the mindset that you adopt.

You have opposed everything.

Time is up, Tánaiste, thank you.

(Interruptions).

Tánaiste, there are thousands going to be evicted.

You have an obligation to put forward ideas. You have opposed affordable housing, you opposed help-to-buy, and you opposed first homes. You have opposed everything in this House to do with housing-----

A Deputy

Where do people go now?

-----because you have a different view, which I do not think is realistic-----

Time is up, Tánaiste, please.

-----or viable in any shape or form. I think you would damage the situation and you would make it worse with your policies.

It could not be worse.

It could not be.

It could not be worse.

It could, actually. It could be much worse.

(Interruptions).

I ask Members to please address their remarks through the Chair and not directly to each other. That is what is leading on to all of this raucous carry-on.

Sorry, a Cheann Comhairle.

I am sure you are. I call Deputy Canney.

I want to raise the issue of the residential zoned land tax. It has created a huge amount of confusion for many farmers who have land which is adjacent to or inside the boundaries of these local area plans. In Galway, the Tuam local area plan is now being done for the next five years. We have the same thing in Ballinasloe, Gort and a few other places. The people who own these lands are farming the lands, or they at least have farmers who are farming them. Their concern is these lands are now being put on public display as being zoned or whatever. There has been no consultation or they are not being notified that these lands are being zoned. What is the position on taxing farmers who are farming their land, need the land for their farming enterprise and are not hoarding the land to make money or profit on it? Where there is land which is zoned phase 1 or phase 2, will the Tánaiste clarify that phase 2 land is not liable to this tax because the land will not be used or developed until phase 1 is completed? There seems to be huge confusion and it is causing a lot of stress.

I am getting a lot of representations from people who have land in these areas, wondering what they should do, what they can do and where they can get information. The local authority will tell them it does not know what is happening until the end of the year because it is a Revenue issue. We need to get clarity for people who own land who are in this position. There are some people who might not even be in the country who own land who will never know that it has been zoned because they are some place else, they have emigrated or whatever. There is a huge uncertainty and confusion, and then, like everything else, there is a lot of information going around which cannot be validated. In the interest of clarity, will the Tánaiste explain what is going to happen with all of this?

I thank the Deputy for raising the issue. Of course, the origins of the residential zoned land tax lie in the context of the debate we have just had. The Government is totally focused on increasing the supply of housing. Any land that is zoned or that people sought zoning for that is not used for housing, we want used for housing. That is the fundamental objective here, to deal with the issue of supply. The only way we can deal with the housing crisis is to have additional housing supply. This would have the impact of incentivising people to develop, but in a different way because it creates a penalty for the lack of development.

I think the Deputy has raised legitimate points in respect of those who may never have sought their land to be zoned in the first instance but which may be subject to county development plan zoning. The opportunity exists in that case for people to appeal both to the local authority to have their land essentially dezoned. Land in active agricultural use within mixed use zonings, in particular, may not meet the criteria for falling within the scope of the tax and, if so, should not be reflected in the draft residential zoned land tax.

The Department of Housing, Heritage and Local Government is assessing the amount of land in scope for the tax. It estimates that approximately 10,000 ha is within the scope on the published draft maps. It is not possible to quantify how much of this land is in active agricultural use. However, it is estimated that the majority of agricultural land across the country is not affected by the tax. All 31 local authorities published draft plans in November of last year. Landowners and interested parties made a total of 1,687 submissions to the local authorities by 1 January. The local authorities will assess submissions and decide to retain or remove land from the maps. There is some latitude in terms of that deadline. If people missed the deadline, they can apply. Landowners can appeal the decision of the local authority to retain their land on the map where the local authority considers that the land falls within the scope, notwithstanding the submissions to An Bord Pleanála. If the local authority says "No" and it wants to zone the land, it can go to An Bord Pleanála.

As a once-off provision during 2022-2023, landowners may also request the local authority to rezone their land to remove it from the scope of the tax. A total of 210 submissions requesting a change to zoning were made to local authorities by 1 January 2023 on the draft maps. Again, we would seek latitude in that respect if people missed that particular deadline.

The next stage is the publication in May of a supplemental map by local authorities identifying additional land that has fallen into the scope, with provision for landowner submissions and appeals of decisions as took place within the draft maps. The final maps will be published on 1 December this year and will be updated annually thereafter. With regard to phasing, the legislation states that all land that is zoned and serviced and does not benefit from the exclusion will be within the scope of the tax.

In terms of the Deputy's latter point, the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage and the Department of Finance are aware of situations where phasing objectives within development plans may prevent the development of phase 2 lands until phase 1 lands have been developed. The Department is considering this matter currently. I do not think it is on that somebody who, through no fault of their own, is not developing in phase 2 should be taxed.

Just for clarity, phase 2 land cannot be developed, full stop, until all of phase 1 land has been used up. There should be no liability to any owner of that land while it remains in phase 2. That needs to be set out clearly because a tax cannot be put on something when somebody is not making it available because it is not going to be used.

My other concern about all of this, going back to the discussion we had about housing, is that we are trying to zone more land to make sure the price of land for development comes down while at the same time we are pushing up the price of developing land. For instance, in Tuam, where are we going zone land now? The proposal from the county council is to reduce the town area. Land that was zoned previously has been taken out of it and it is all being pushed into the centre. Some of that land is not accessible or serviced. We have what I see as a mechanism, through these local area plans, whereby the price of developing land is being driven up because it is being made very scarce. Why have we phase 1 and phase 2? Why do we not zone land that is suitable for development, full stop, so that we have more of a supply, thus reducing the price of the land and making housing more affordable?

The view generally is that we have a lot of zoned land that has not been used. The objective is to use it. People who have sought zonings should use the zoning and get houses built.

That is the key.

The Deputy's point about phase 2 is fair, I think. That is being examined by the two Departments at the moment. The issue has been raised. There is a desire to have more compact growth in towns and cities, which makes sustainable sense in terms of climate, congestion and access to services. That is a broader planning objective people have subscribed to. There are some towns, though, where there has been questionable dezoning of land that no one has sought. Given the housing crisis we are in, we should be looking for the opportunities to get houses built. All of this is about the housing crisis in the first instance, to get more supply and to get more houses built. Ultimately, that is the way we sort the housing crisis.

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