This is a fairly straightforward issue. I would just like to say in advance that I was not advised that the Minister or a representative from his Department would not be available. I cannot stress enough that I do not mean this to be in any way disrespectful to the Minister of State but my understanding was that, if someone from the Department would not be here, I would be informed.
Saincheisteanna Tráthúla - Topical Issue Debate
Industrial Relations
I appreciate that.
I am quite happy to hear the reply. I emphasise that this is not meant to be disrespectful because the Minister of State is here. I do not want to be giving out to the person who turned up about the person who did not but I do want it recorded that this is not ideal.
I will start by thanking the Financial Services Union, FSU, for the work it is doing in this area and Dr. Michelle O'Sullivan for her research. We all know that surveillance of workers is not new. We have had punching in and punching out since the start of the industrial revolution. People have been recording their time in and time out on their phones. I used to do it myself when I worked in a union. However, in the post-pandemic world the nature and scale of this technological surveillance has increased massively. It was described by John O'Connell, the general secretary of the FSU, when he appeared before the Joint Committee on Enterprise, Trade and Employment this week, as being akin to social media, which is something that took off very fast and got ahead of us. Now we are scrabbling behind it to try to put in place checks and balances. It moved very rapidly.
This surveillance of workers has moved very rapidly, partly because more workers are working remotely, but even before Covid and the change in work it created, it had been growing at an alarming rate. The surveillance has reached new levels with the development of artificial intelligence, AI, and machine learning technology. There have been reports of the use of AI and machine learning tools to monitor workers' activity and body language through wearable technology and cameras in the workplace to deduce performance, attention, focus and whether they are sad, stressed, happy and so forth. The data provided to managers are beyond terrifying. Several members of the committee referenced George Orwell's work Nineteen Eighty-Four when we were discussing this. There is something somewhat dystopian about the way workers can be monitored.
In 2021, I raised these concerns with the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment and I was told that these matters are not covered by employment rights laws or employment terms law. New research from the FSU has shed significant light on the practice of technological surveillance. This research found that a quarter of respondents reported that their employer had increased data collection on their work since they started remote working and over half felt that surveillance work was a violation of privacy. This has to be considered in light of the fact that productivity was not going down. Productivity remained the same. To me, the best way to assess if workers are in fact doing their job is to determine whether the output is still the same. If the output is still the same, why does an employer need to know what their heart rate was at 2 o'clock in the afternoon or if they were excessively blinking or whatever it is? This technology monitors people's eyes and heart rate.
Two thirds of those surveyed felt that surveillance was demoralising and indicated that it increased their stress levels. That is fairly self-explanatory. If people feel they are being watched in that oppressive way, it will increase their stress levels. We cannot adopt a wait-and-see policy. That was done with social media and regulating big technology and look at where we landed. Yesterday, Bloomberg reported that in America, the White House is hosting a forum for workers whose employers use automated systems to monitor them. They are planning a broader effort to ask Americans what priorities their government should pursue regarding AI in terms of new regulation on emerging workplace technologies. I would welcome the views of the Minister of State on that.
If a Deputy puts forward a Topical Issue and has done work on it, in the interests of fairness, he or she should be informed if the relevant Minister cannot take the matter. I just wanted to state that.
I thank the Deputy for raising this matter. This issue arises in relation to the report produced by the Financial Services Union on employee experiences of technological surveillance in financial services, which was published in April. The Minister has noted the recommendations in the report. The report suggests that the concerns of employees around technological surveillance can be addressed in two ways, namely, through collective bargaining between employers and employee representatives and through statutory regulation.
With regard to collective bargaining, it has been the consistent policy of successive Irish Governments to support the development of an institutional framework facilitating a voluntary system of industrial relations, premised upon freedom of contract and freedom of association. This system has served us well over the decades and there is an extensive range of statutory provisions in place to provide legislative support for a voluntary system of industrial relations. The freedom of association and the right to organise and bargain collectively are also guaranteed in a number of international instruments the State has ratified and which it is, therefore, bound to uphold under international law.
Statutory regulation of technical surveillance in the workplace falls under the terms of general data protection regulation, GDPR, and the 2018 Data Protection Act, which have significantly increased employers' obligations and responsibilities in relation to how they collect, use and protect personal data. The Data Protection Commission, DPC, is the national independent authority responsible for upholding the fundamental right of individuals to have their personal data protected. The DPC is the Irish supervisory authority for the GDPR, and also has functions and powers related to other important regulatory frameworks, including the Irish e-privacy regulations of 2011 and the EU directive known as the law enforcement directive. Any employee may request the DPC to enforce his or her rights in relation to data protection.
Trade unions may raise issues of non-compliance with GDPR or data protection legislation with employers, or may raise their members’ concerns with regard to workplace surveillance as part of collective bargaining. If parties cannot agree, it is open to them to use the industrial relations dispute resolution mechanisms operated by the Workplace Relations Commission and the Labour Court.
I agree with the Deputy. Technology is moving on so rapidly, at a frightening pace. It is important that the Deputy has raised this issue.
I thank the Minister of State for being here.
I want to make it very clear that I also thank the Minister of State for being here. I do not want to give out to the person who did turn up about the people who did not. I thank him very much for being here.
I appreciate the explanation about industrial relations and how they work. I have some small knowledge of that myself. As matters stand, however, they cannot deal with this issue. The GDPR protections in place are not enough. This is happening at a frightening pace. The impact it is having on workers was outlined by the FSU in its report. It is incredibly demoralising for workers to think that their every movement is being watched because, at the end of the day, their output and productivity are what matters and there are ways of measuring those. The difficulty with this is that workers believe the surveillance is there, because the technology is all around them, but they do not know where this information is being stored or how it is being handled. They do not know either if it is going to be used against them in a situation where they might apply for a promotion or if they were involved in a disciplinary procedure.
I respect the Minister of State's point about this issue being included in collective agreements. It is important, and that can be done, but we have a shockingly low level of coverage with collective bargaining. It is going to increase at some point in the future but for the moment it is very low, which means these workers do not have the capacity to negotiate those collective agreements. Without that, we need the Government to step in and show leadership. It is very rare in a matter of industrial relations or workers' rights that I would ever cite the US as an example but I am doing so in this instance. The Biden Administration has called in workers and employers that use this type of software and it has begun an open and frank dialogue about where this is all going. It is the kind of dialogue we possibly should have had about social media back when the Minister of State and I were young but did not.
I think we need to grasp that opportunity now.
I think the Deputy is still very young.
Maybe the Deputy is. I cannot speak for myself. As I said earlier, Ireland's system of industrial relations is voluntary in nature and responsibility for the resolution of industrial relations issues lies ultimately with employers and workers and their respective representatives, as appropriate. Enterprises and their employees are at liberty to negotiate a form of collective agreement that can provide bespoke arrangements to enhance existing GDPR protections as necessary.
The statutory regulation of technical surveillance in the workplace, that is, the general data protection regulation in the Data Protection Act 2018, has significantly increased employers' obligations and responsibilities regarding how they collect, use and protect personal data. As outlined, any employee may request the Data Protection Commission to enforce his or her rights regarding data protection. The resolution mechanisms provided by the State are also open to trade unions to raise issues of non-compliance with the GDPR or data protection legislation in the workplace.
The recommendations for Government is that the Government should undertake research on the possible legislative changes that may be required to keep pace with technological advances, while ensuring proper regulation of employers' collection and use of data from surveillance functions. Another recommendation is that the Government should also seek the Data Protection Commissioner to be proactive in inspecting employments to ensure adherence to GDPR legislation. The points raised by the Deputy are really important, particularly at a time of full employment in the country. This should not be happening at all but the fact that we must seek this level of compliance is difficult. It is upsetting for workers and it is very valid for the Deputy to raise this here this afternoon.
For the information of Members in terms of process and procedure, where a Deputy tables a Topical Issue to a Minister, that Minister's office is required to contact the Deputy and indicate whether the Minister will or will not be here. As far as Members are concerned, it is disrespectful and unacceptable that this would not happen. If I get a complaint from any Member about that, I will action that complaint.
Emergency Services Personnel
It is important that when we address a Topical Issue, the Minister in question is here to address it. It is very important. I am very respectful that the Minister of State is here but I would have to say that I am concerned.
I was contacted by a number of constituents from the constituency both the Minister of State and I represent, namely, Carlow-Kilkenny. Some of them are retained firefighters while others are members of the Garda or paramedics. There are significant concerns regarding conditions, pay rates and pensions. I will speak about retained firefighters because I understand that they are to take industrial action on 6 June. While they do not want to do this, they feel they have no choice. They will attend fires, however, so if there is a fire it will be attended to.
My understanding is that there have been talks between the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform and SIPTU. As the talks are ongoing, hopefully we will have a good result. A retained firefighter who might have given 30 years of excellent service will come out with a small lump sum but a new retained firefighter will get very little coming out. He or she will get a very small lump sum, if any, and when he or she reaches the age of 60, he or she will be lucky to come out with €12 to €14 extra in his or her pension.
A number of members of Carlow Fire and Rescue Service are now forced to retire even though they would very much like to stay on after reaching the age of 60, assuming they pass a medical. That is very important because we are haemorrhaging staff from the emergency services and this could be a way to address it. Local government authorities could look at extending the retirement age across the country and we need to look at rates of pay and pensions. I will take Carlow County Council as an example, where you can stay up to the age of 70. It is optional. I understand this does not apply to retained firefighters, however, who can work up to the age of 55. After the age of 55, they must undergo an annual medical until they are 60 but then they must retire. There are some firefighters who want to stay on. They are in very good health and do not mind doing medicals but they have mortgages and children who are living at home and they just need to stay on for a bit longer once they pass their medical.
Pay for anyone starting out is very low. I met a firefighter this week. He is a young man who has not been long in the job. He told me he went to look for a mortgage but could not get one. The banks would not even look at him. They said they could not look at him for a mortgage. We now have people working for local government who are unable to qualify for a mortgage. I could even speak about Garda members, who are the same. There is a significant challenge when it comes to recruiting gardaí. We need to look at that.
Our ambulance paramedics do an excellent job. A lady in Carlow who had a bad fall. There is a central location in Dublin so everything is centralised and is based on the telephone call. They rang for an ambulance. I do not blame the ambulance paramedics, who are doing a great job but as the people they rang said they would be waiting for an ambulance for an hour, our fire service came along, did a lot and got everything sorted, so well done. If we cannot recruit and cannot retain the excellent firefighters, gardaí and ambulance paramedics, then we need to give them proper pay and conditions in order that people can get a mortgage if they are in that line of work.
I am happy to address this issue on behalf of my constituency colleague. Like the Deputy, I pay tribute to the incredible work our fire services undertake. The pay and conditions for all public servants, including those working in the fire services and the National Ambulance Service, are set out as part of the Building Momentum public service agreement. The Building Momentum agreement provided the agreed approach to public service pay and conditions for the period 2021 to 2022. It was further extended for 2023 following a review in acknowledgement of the changes to the underlying assumptions with regard to inflation. The pay measures introduced through Building Momentum and its extension amount to total headline adjustments of 9.5% over the lifetime of the agreement. In addition, the extended agreement is weighted especially towards those at lower incomes in light of the inflation challenge. That is why taken together, the Building Momentum agreement and its extension amount to headline increases of approximately 12.5% for the lowest-paid public servants.
In addition to the general pay rounds, all public servants covered by Building Momentum, including members of the fire services and the National Ambulance Service, have access to a new sectoral bargaining process to deal with outstanding adjudications, commitments, recommendations, awards and claims. Local sectoral management and the relevant sectoral union representative associations were provided with a sectoral bargaining fund to be used to resolve grade or sector-based pay claims and outstanding adjudications and awards or to be used as a sectoral general pay round up to the value of the fund. The equivalent of a 1% increase in annualised basic salaries was allocated to the sectoral bargaining fund for this purpose.
Where issues are not resolved at sectoral negotiations, parties have access to the established dispute resolution procedures. In the first instance, parties are expected to seek to resolve disputes at a local level to the maximum extent possible through regular and proactive engagement as issues arise. If this process does not resolve the matter, parties have recourse to the formal dispute resolution mechanisms, including the Labour Court and the Workplace Relations Commission. Our industrial relations machinery has served us very well over the years. That is why | believe it is everybody’s best interests that parties continue to work within these institutions to resolve disputes, rather than resorting to industrial action.
While I welcome the Minister of State's response, I firmly believe we will hit a crisis across all the emergency services.
While I welcome that people are living longer, and we are all glad about this, the cost of living is a significant factor. Everybody has mortgages and a lot more outgoings, which we see daily in our clinics. We are not able to recruit in certain areas. I go back to the retained firefighters, whom I have been meeting a lot recently. I spoke to a man with a part-time job who was offered a job with Carlow County Council as a retained firefighter. He could not take it because he was told at the job he was doing that if he took another job they could not have him. If people with a job that they cannot survive on look for another job, they may not be allowed to keep the first job. The challenge in the system is unacceptable.
I know our retained firefighters do not want to take industrial action. I can only pay tribute to them for the work they do. They come across accidents. Every day people's lives could be lost. They go through so much but they love the job. It is like politics. I firmly believe that to be a garda, a retained firefighter or an ambulance paramedic, people have to have a calling for it. They deal with people's lives daily. This can affect them.
We have to have proper pay and conditions. We have to give them the choice they deserve. Nobody wants to be here today saying this. Neither do they want to be in a position where they have to fight for the proper pay that they deserve. I have spoken to the Minister, Deputy Darragh O'Brien. I have spoken to the Tánaiste and I am speaking to the Minister of State. We need to do something urgently in our emergency services or we could hit a crisis.
I thank Deputy Murnane O'Connor for raising the matter so passionately. I agree wholeheartedly with her that these are people who have found a vocation in the work they do and they love their work on a daily basis. They face huge risk in that work and it is noted. The Government has noted the contents of Retained Fire Services in Ireland - A Review of Recruitment and Retention and the Future Sustainability of Service Delivery. It contains 13 key recommendations and was published in December 2022. I have spoken to my colleague the Minister, Deputy Darragh O'Brien, about it.
Following the publication of the report, management and employee representatives engaged in a process on the recommendations which was facilitated by an independent party. This process broke down on 10 May, as Deputy Murnane O'Connor is aware, with the staff side withdrawing from the process. Members of the retained fire service have since balloted in favour of industrial action. Formal notice of the action was served on 22 May, setting out three weeks of escalating action starting with a work to rule on 6 June. In this instance SIPTU has not adhered to the agreed dispute resolution process set out in Building Momentum.
Deputy Murnane O'Connor is correct that the dispute is primarily with regard to pay. The requirements set out under the code of practice on disputes procedures, including essential services to ensure the health and safety of the public and firefighters, has been noted by SIPTU. Parties are engaging at local level to put in place the necessary arrangements and efforts are ongoing to resolve this in line with the agreed process. On behalf of the Government I urge all parties to engage in a positive way to try to resolve this and stave away the necessity for formal action. I appreciate how challenging this is for all parties involved.
I thank the Minister of State, Deputy Noonan, for being here to deal with these matters.
Sports Facilities
I thank the Minister of State for taking this matter. I want to discuss the need for a state-of-the-art sports complex in the park beside the Alfie Byrne Road. I hope this is not seen as a politician asking for a specific request for his constituency because technically this is outside my constituency. The park serves an enormous number of people in the constituencies of Dublin Central and Dublin North West and throughout north Dublin.
The pitch is in a sorry state of repair and has been for the best part of 20 years. Yet every weekend more than 400 young people and older people go to engage in sport, predominantly football, on that pitch by the Alfie Byrne Road. Several teams operate there and Belvedere Football Club and Eastwall Bessborough Football Club have framed an extraordinary vision for what the site could be. At present a person with a disability cannot get a wheelchair up to the pitch. There have been occasions in recent months when a person has been asked not to go to see a loved one play football. This can no longer be the case.
Daniel Ennis of Eastwall Bessborough has created a vision for a multipurpose sporting site in the park. Some private funding has been sourced by the club and it is looking for backing from Dublin City Council, which has given some support. It is also looking for support from the State to back a sporting complex in the park that would suit the needs of the Eastwall Bessborough and Belvedere football clubs. Belvedere has a long and distinguished history. It is paying exorbitant fees on various pitches. It will not be able to sustain this.
Most importantly, the clubs have asked for a sporting complex to suit the needs of children in the surrounding communities of East Wall, North Strand and other areas who have neurodivergent needs and other additional needs. There are very few play facilities. The clubs are looking at what this site could be, which is an asset for the wider community and the surrounding north Dublin area where there is a dearth of 11-a-side pitches and large green spaces. They are asking whether this could be a space for a sporting complex suited to the needs of two great clubs and, most importantly, suited to the needs of the area. It would have a sports complex, with everything the local communities could need including grass pitches and changing rooms, which are not there at present. Recently there have been unfortunate incidents when under-15 girls' teams could not use the pitch because there was no supporting complex. This is an incredible shame.
There are other groups in the East Wall area, such as the Side By Side parenting group which comes together to share space with their children who have neurodivergent or additional needs, who do not have anywhere to go. I have visited them on many weekends in East Wall. We sit on concrete while adults and children play together. They see this proposal as a means by which they could combat and alleviate all of this and provide solutions. There are a lot of good things happening in the north inner city but leaders such as the parents who come together in groups such as Side By Side and in football clubs such as Belvedere, which have long and distinguished traditions of contributing to the lives of young and old people, say this could be a space where they could create a future. It is remarkable proposal.
I would be happy to send the details of the proposal to the office of the Minister of State. I know it is not his specific responsibility but he is representing the Government today. There is momentum building but I would like to see that momentum from the State, which talks about investment in the north inner city. This is a very clear and tangible goal. If we work on it together it would have huge benefits for the north side of the city. I look forward to hearing the response of the Minister of State.
I thank Deputy Gannon for tabling the issue. It is very important. Fantastic work is going on in football clubs throughout the country. The inclusion aspect is significant and I know this from the local football club in Kilkenny. Any decision, particularly with regard to the leasing of property by Dublin City Council, is entirely a matter for the local authority in the first instance. With regard to Government support for new sport facilities, the sports capital and equipment programme, SCEP, as administered by the Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media, is the primary vehicle for Government support for the development of sports and recreation facilities and the purchase of non-personal sports equipment throughout the country. More than 13,000 projects have now benefited from sports capital funding since 1998, bringing the total allocation in that time to more than €1.15 billion.
We can all agree that the SCEP has transformed the sporting landscape with improved sports facilities in every town and village in the country. The programme for Government commits to continuing the SCEP and to targeting the investment in disadvantaged areas. I have the figures for Alfie Byrne Park and I will provide them to Deputy Gannon after we conclude the debate. As well as being open to individual sports clubs, applications are also accepted from local authorities. I understand that Dublin City Council has previously received significant grant funding for sports facilities projects in the vicinity of Alfie Byrne Road, including all-weather pitches used by the clubs in question.
Belvedere Football Club also received grant allocation for sports equipment under the programme. With regard to larger projects, the 2018 national sports policy provided for the establishment of a new large scale sport infrastructure fund, LSSIF. The first LSSIF allocations were announced in January 2020 and, to date, approximately €86.4 million has been allocated to 33 projects, including a number of local authority-led projects.
In relation to capital assistance towards a new sports facility at Alfie Byrne Park, it will be open to Dublin City Council to make a future application under either the sports capital and equipment programme, SCEP, or the LSSIF. If the clubs referred to by the Deputy secure a lease on the property, it will be open to them to apply directly for SCEP funding. Any application will be considered on its merits, based on the relevant scoring system for the relevant round of the SCEP or LSSIF. As the Deputy will be aware, the schemes favour projects that will increase participation and share facilities among a number of sports and-or clubs, and priority is always given to applications from disadvantaged areas.
With regard to the timing of the next round of the SCEP, I know a full review of the 2020 round of the SCEP was published last week and the recommendations arising from the review will be reflected in the next round of the programme. I understand the Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media is now working on drafting the new “Guide to Making an Application” for the SCEP and engagement is ongoing with the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform in relation to opening the next cycle of the SCEP.
In regard to the LSSIF, the first allocations were announced by the Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media just prior to the arrival of the Covid-19 pandemic. The pandemic obviously gave rise to significant financial challenges for all grantees, with many of them having to reprioritise their own expenditure plans. In more recent times, the high level of construction inflation has also presented considerable challenges for grantees. In view of these issues, it was considered timely to review progress on all projects and I understand meetings with all grantees have taken place. It is encouraging that, based on these discussions with grantees, it is estimated that more than half of the 33 projects should be in a position to draw down funding this year. While this progress is welcome, these discussions also confirm that some projects in receipt of LSSIF grants may not proceed in the short to medium term.
I thank the Minister of State for the response, in particular in regard to Alfie Byrne Park. It is not a place that many people in the city are aware of as it is somewhat out of the way, just off the North Strand, between Clontarf and East Wall. However, it is a place of massive opportunity. What it requires, which is why I am raising it in the House today, is leadership from all arms of the State. Dublin City Council has only now started to demonstrate an enthusiasm for this plan. I think it requires Dublin City Council and the State to come in and back that ambition.
Where we are seeing ambition for that site and for the wider community is from the local club members themselves, in particular people like Daniel Ennis and Vincent Butler, who have contributed massively to the northside of Dublin, Vincent for over four decades, and Daniel is starting to catch up, although a much younger man. What they are doing shows a lot of heart. They gain no advantage from this, other than to contribute to this community. They have identified needs. They have focused on the football but not necessarily from the glory aspect of it, and they are working with kids at all levels and from all age groups and genders. They have made massive strides in terms of welcoming the new communities that we have seen in East Wall. They are really passionate about that area but they need the infrastructure to match the ambition they are displaying.
That is why I am proud to bring their proposal to the Minister of State today and very glad to hear the substance of his contribution. I hope he will continue to engage with the Government on that. East Wall, North Strand and the surrounding areas are places with massive heart. If they can provide sports, as they have been doing in quite difficult circumstances, and if we can invest in these sports complexes, we can enhance that area substantially. There is a dearth of infrastructure and the plan we have, in particular for children with additional needs, would make a massive difference. As he is a member of Government, I urge the Minister of State to take this plan and bring it forward. I thank him for his contribution.
From what the Deputy has described, I would say the work is very important and valuable to the communities, particularly to disadvantaged new communities. This is investment well spent in the context of any Government expenditure to support fantastic clubs like this.
With regard to the LSSIF, there is ongoing engagement between the Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media on the next LSSIF round and looking at the learning experiences from some of the projects that were grantees in the previous round and perhaps were not able to draw that down. Once these discussions are concluded, it is my understanding that an announcement will be made in respect of any new round of the LSSIF and a new call for proposals under the SCEP. I am assured by the Department that it will be happy to consider any applications either directly from Dublin City Council or if a lease arrangement can be secured over time. Again, I can give the Deputy the information when we have concluded.
Dublin City Council has been successful with a number of grants for Alfie Byrne Road in 2007 and 2008 and also in 2014, so a significant element of funding has already been put into the community there. In 2015, it also received another round of SCEP funding of €104,004 for pitch improvements in Fairview Park. Belvedere Football Club received an equipment grant of €30,000 and East Wall had not previously applied for SCEP funding. Again, we would urge all parties to engage in the process, look for the grant rounds when they come out, apply for them and be proactive. Given the work the Deputy has described, they are doing very important work. I thank the Deputy.
I thank the Minister of State and the Deputies for dealing with those matters. The next business was scheduled to begin at 5.52 p.m. so we are way ahead of schedule. To give the Minister the opportunity to arrive, I suggest that we suspend for five minutes.
Cuireadh an Dáil ar fionraí ar 5.37 p.m. agus cuireadh tús leis arís ar 5.42 p.m.
Sitting suspended at 5.37 p.m. and resumed at 5.42 p.m.