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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 1 Jun 2023

Vol. 1039 No. 5

Ceisteanna ó Cheannairí - Leaders' Questions

Tá Cumann Altraí agus Ban Cabhrach na hÉireann, IMNO, i ndiaidh líon na n-othar a bhí ar thralaithe ospidéil i mí Bealtaine a fhoilsiú. Bhí beagnach 12,000 duine ar thralaithe le linn na míosa sin agus ba leanaí iad 300 acu. Is daoine iad seo a bhí ar thralaithe sna hospidéil an mhí seo caite agus tá an figiúr níos airde ná mar a bhí i mí Eanáir i mbliana, an mhí ba mheasa ó thosaíodh cuntas na n-othar ar thralaithe. Níl aon phlean ag an Rialtas seo dul i ngleic leis an ngéarchéim seo inár seirbhíse sláinte. Yesterday, the Irish Midwives and Nurses Organisation, IMNO, published the number of patients on hospital trolleys in the month of May and these figures show that almost 12,000 people, including 300 children, were on trolleys in our hospitals last month. That figure is higher than January this year when we saw the worst levels of overcrowding in our hospitals since the IMNO started to collate these figures. This level of overcrowding at the beginning of summer is unprecedented and needs to be tackled to prevent even worse chaos this winter. The trolley crisis is no longer a seasonal event. It is a national crisis and a national scandal. Not content with making the housing crisis worse day by day, the Government has now done the same with the health services. Those crises are going to get worse every single day as long as this Government spends its time in office.

We have a situation now where nurses are working in a system in which it has been normalised for more than 500 people a day to be on trolleys in our hospitals. Behind every one of those statistics is a person. It is often a person waiting in pain for a hospital bed. In the first three months of this year, the average wait time in emergency departments for admission to a bed was almost 12 hours. It was worse for children and those over the age of 75 because, on average, they had to wait 13 hours to get a hospital bed.

Let me give an example of what that means for individuals. A 78-year-old woman from Waterford who suffers from cardiac issues had to wait 24 hours for a hospital bed. Her daughter left her at the hospital the day before and she called her mother at 3 p.m. the following day. Her mother told her on the phone that she had been diagnosed with heart failure. That 78-year-old woman was still in the same chair in which her daughter had left her the day before. It is absolutely disgraceful how our people are treated in this State under the policies of this Government. Her daughter spoke of how her mother did not even have access to a trolley, how she was not able to get any sleep the night before, take any rest or take the weight off her hips or her back. That is what is happening under this Government's watch.

This is just one of hundreds of examples we could recount on the floor of the Dáil today. The reality is that I have absolutely no confidence in the Minister or the Government tackling the hospital and trolley crisis. Why? Because it has missed targets again and again. There are record numbers on trolleys, botched recruitment schemes, soaring waiting lists and the Government is stumbling from one disaster to another. Today, we learn again of the delayed discharges across our hospital network. A strategic plan is needed to tackle overcrowding. Does the Government have one? Of course, it does not. The ESRI told us 2,500 additional beds are needed but the Government does not have a plan to deliver them. To make matters worse, it did not even provide funding in the two most recent budgets for a single additional acute bed across our hospital network. I ask a simple question on behalf of all those 12,000 people who spent time on trolleys last month. Why is the Government so incapable of getting even the basics right in tackling a national scandal that has plagued the State for more than two decades?

I thank the Deputy for raising this important issue on healthcare in Ireland. On behalf of the Government, and I am sure all Deputies in the House would share this, we commend all the staff within the HSE and the health service who work so diligently 365 days of the year, are totally committed to our people and are providing as best a service as they can. The Government is committed to supporting that. I will turn to some facts. There is no question about it that there are cases. The Deputy has highlighted a couple of them. I do not have the background detail to those but I turn to the facts of what Government is actually doing. We are investing record funding in our health service. The Government has allocated €23.6 billion net to the health budget for this year; current and capital. That is an extra €5.6 billion and 32% over the original net budget allocation for 2020. These are the facts of what Government is doing. More than 20,000 net additional staff have been hired into our health service since the beginning of 2020. This includes 6,281 nurses and midwives, 3,177 health and social care professionals and 1,948 doctors and dentists. These are the real facts. In the three years since the Government has come in, 2020, 2021 and 2022 have seen the biggest staff increases in the HSE since it was established. Those are the facts. That is what is being done and 2023 continues to show extremely large increases in that space.

The Deputy spoke about acute beds. I ask him to turn to the facts and recognise what has been done. As of mid-March, 970 new acute hospital beds had been opened nationally since 2020. By the end of this year, the HSE is due to have added 1,179 beds against a target of 1,146. We now have 323 adult critical care beds, which is an increase of 65 beds or 25% since 2020. The Department of Health and the HSE are planning a refresh of the 2018 health service capacity review, which was scheduled following the Central Statistics Office review, and that will be done and released later this year. Overall, as part of national development plan, NDP, funding, the health sector has an allocation of €5.657 billion for the period 2021 to 2025, which is an 11% increase on funding year-on-year. This week, more than 500 health capital projects and programmes across the State and the sector are under way at various stages of development. The capital programme for 2023 is being developed and the HSE Capital Plan 2023 has been published by the Minister. That health capital plan in 2023 will help with the construction and equipping of healthcare facilities. It is worth €967 million with a further €50 million provided for capital infrastructure resulting from Covid-19 actions and an additional €10 million for income generated in 2022.

Those are the facts of what Government is doing and investing in our health service. There is no question that there will be instances in hospitals across the country where people will spend longer in chairs or on trolleys than they should. Our job as a Government is to scale up the health service and the resources within the HSE and the Department of Health and that is actually what we are doing. We are underpinning that by a capital plan that further expands the health infrastructure we have for care within the community. I have outlined the facts but what I have not heard from Sinn Féin, bar criticism of apparent Government inaction, is what its alternative plans are in this space. I have told the Deputy about the increased capacity and staff numbers, which are at record levels, between nurses, doctors, midwives, dentists, and right the way through. That is actually happening now. Where cases present, and I am aware of them myself, hospitals have to do everything they can to make sure that waiting times for patients are reduced to the bare minimum.

These are not instances. A total of 11,856 patients spent time on trolleys last month. If a person is 75 years of age and is admitted to the accident and emergency department, the average waiting time before he or she is admitted is 13 hours. It is an absolute disgrace; it is a scandal. The Minister talks about facts; I will give him facts. The Government promised beds three years ago; they still have not been delivered. It promised 10,000 members of staff in the health service; last year just above half of that number was delivered. The real facts are that there were 11,856 patients in the month of May on hospital trolleys. This figure is higher than in the depths of winter in January of this year when the number of patients on trolleys broke all the records we had seen before. The Minister is somehow normalising that, just as he has normalised homelessness. It is not acceptable. Whether it is our mother or grandmother, we should never tolerate the fact that a woman was left in hospital suffering from cardiac problems for 24 hours on a chair and not even given a bed. The point I make is that the Government has no plan. Sinn Féin put forward its plan. Deputy Cullinane has outlined our plan. We have showed in our alternative budget what we would do in terms of workforce planning and additional capacity. Not one additional acute bed did the Government provide for in the two most recent budgets. The reason we have record numbers on trolleys is the Government's inability to deal with this crisis; it is just making it worse.

I have outlined what the facts are with regard to investment and what this Government is doing. I remind the Deputy and his Sinn Féin colleagues they have opposed every budget we have brought forward and every measure with regard to help. In relation to 2023, funding of €443 million is being allocated to tackle waiting lists-----

They have gone up.

-----and 2022 was the first year the numbers on waiting lists fell since 2015. Our job is to support our hospital network and care in the community by providing additional resources. As I said, there are more now more people working in the HSE, including more doctors, more nurses-----

More people on trolleys, more people on waiting lists.

Please Deputy.

More people dying as a result.

Let the Minister answer, please.

There are more doctors, nurses and healthcare staff than ever before. Record numbers are there. Is the situation perfect? Of course, it is not. All of us have cases raised with us where incidents have happened that are intolerable; there is no question about that. We could also talk about the health outcomes in Ireland. Look at the outcomes over the past 20 to 25 years-----

The time is up now.

-----in cardiac care and oncology and survival rates as well. Ireland compares very well.

There are 12,000 on trolleys.

It compares very well.

It is disgraceful.

The investment this Government is making is clear for people to see. What is also clear to see is the lack of an alternative-----

The Government has no plan.

-----plan from Sinn Féin.

The Government does not even have a plan.

Deputy Duncan Smith is next.

Over recent days. the Minister and his Government have trumpeted and celebrated the country's high employment figures. However, if we look under the bonnet, what workers are really facing is a crisis in their real wages, terms and conditions of employment and how far their wage packets are going. In recent weeks my colleague, Deputy Nash, has raised how the price of basic foodstuffs and essentials is pushing workers to the brink. Senator Marie Sherlock said in recent days that real wages in almost every sector of the economy have gone down for four successive quarters. That is why workers are on the verge of despair. I will focus on two key groups of workers. I am glad the Minister is present, because he has direct responsibility for these groups, namely water service workers and retained firefighters who will begin planned industrial action next week.

A series of concerns are outstanding for water workers and there will be a two-day strike action next week. Despite us being on the brink of that action, there are still no contingency plans coming from local authorities in respect of boil water notices or safety notices and no public information campaigns to go with them. The local authorities are ignoring this campaign for what is such a vital service. No commitment has been given to ensure workers who remain in local authorities will not be at a financial loss. That is a commitment they are waiting on, and they are waiting on the Minister to give it.

Next Tuesday, retained firefighters will also begin a campaign of industrial action. There are more than 2,000 retained firefighters in the country. In the constituency the Minister and I share, we have retained firefighters in Skerries and Balbriggan and they form a core part and pillar of our fire service. They are stalwarts of our community. We know they have to live within 2.5 km of the fire station,. They have to be within 3 km at all times, and all for what? It is all for €700 per month. If the Minister has not done so, I advise him to read the testimony of Niamh Folan, a retained firefighter in Galway, who spoke earlier this week to the Irish Independent. From 13 June, a series of rolling work stoppages will begin and then there will be an all-out strike on Tuesday, 20 June. The Minister brought a recent report on the review or retained firefighters to Cabinet in February and we are now in June. The report makes 13 recommendations and these workers want to know why their concerns are not being addressed and why this vital service continues to be run into the ground.

Will the Minister confirm what is being done to address the concerns of water service workers about potential loss of earnings if they stay with their local authorities? Why are local authorities not publishing and presenting contingency plans for the planned days of action? What is being done now to improve recruitment and retention of retained firefighters up and down the country to ensure the service is not only sustained, but flourishes and remains able to serve communities in the years to come?

I thank the Deputy for raising these two important issues. I will comment on the water service workers first. I have been actively engaged in this not just over the past few weeks but over the past number of months and the past two years, in particular under the water transformation programme, which aims to create a publicly-owned single water utility. We have had lots of engagement with union representatives right the way through that process and that process has worked very well. I gave a firm commitment that was sought by the unions that no one would be transferred to Uisce Éireann on a compulsory basis and that people would be transferred over with existing terms and conditions. All of this is confirmed in correspondence. I have met the unions directly. Those who decide to stay within the local government sector will also have their terms and conditions protected. We have been clear on that.

Very recently, following discussions with the unions and SIPTU in particular, they served notice of strike action. I wrote to the unions today recognising the progress that all parties have made in this regard and to ask them to engage with the Workplace Relations Commission, WRC, to convene a meeting of the Irish Water consultative group as soon as possible to try to come to a resolution on the issues raised by SIPTU in this regard. Those issues specifically relate to overtime or allowances into overtime. I have said clearly those in receipt of allowances who decide to stay will get the requisite overtime in local authorities. We have also moved a long way by way of concessions. I have said the additional superannuation contribution will not apply to workers who move across to Irish Water and the engagement has been very good up to now. I encourage SIPTU and the worker representatives to engage through the industrial relations architecture within the State. These issues can be resolved. We are very close to a resolution. We all want a fit-for-purpose, modern, publicly-owned utility. We want workers who do not want to transfer over, and they do not have to, to stay in their jobs with the local authorities and their pay and conditions will be protected, as will their pensions. We are very close to getting there.

By the way, contingency plans are being worked through. I have discussed that with a number of chief executives and there are meetings today. I do not believe strike action is necessary. I have met the workers directly on a number of occasions and I have a good working relationship with them. On the idea the public would be in any way discommoded due to a strike action I do not believe is required, and I say that respectfully to the unions as well, a small number of issues remain that can be worked out. I will come back on the supplementary on the retained fire services.

The contingency plans are cutting it very fine for something so important. On the retained firefighters - and I want the Minister come back on this - this is a 24-7 commitment, 365 days a year. That huge sacrifice impacts on their professional careers, their ability to get mortgages and loans and it ties them physically to the towns and villages they are in. The cost of a fully staffed fire station would be substantially more than what we have with the retained service. The role is becoming increasingly less attractive. They are paid €700 a month giving an average income of €13,000 per year. If people anywhere in the country have a fire in their home, they expect a service to be there as soon as possible, yet we expect this service to operate at those levels. What assurances can the Minister give to ensure this dispute will be resolved?

On the broader, wider asks the union movement and civil society have on water, will he give a commitment on a referendum around public ownership of water? We have a referendum planned this year on care. Will we have one on water and indeed one on housing, which is also part of his brief?

On the last question , the Government has committed in the programme for Government to a referendum on water and one on housing, and I expect them to happen.

Specifically in relation to the retained firefighters-----

There are questions around the wording there.

I have only a minute to answer and I want to answer on the retained fire service, because I commissioned the report on the retained fire service in Ireland back in May 2021. We had 1,000 submissions to it, many from retained firefighters. I regularly meet retained firefighters from across the country, including in our constituency. Proposals have gone forward through the Local Government Management Agency directly to the unions on terms and conditions, especially the work-life balance. Rostering is a big issue for people as they are effectively on call 24-7. I will give the House a flavour of the number of things that have been offered already. These include an increase in staff numbers by approximately 20% with a minimum of 12 firefighters in all stations, structured time off, individual flexibility with regard to availability, 50 additional promotional positions, flexibility to attend calls when scheduled on leave, if desired, and retainer payments not reduced despite a much lower level of commitment to be available.

We are close to a resolution on this and a lot of good work has gone in on the basis of the 13 recommendations. We are continuing to engage with union representatives in this regard and I believe we can come to a resolution that will mean we can retain people within the fire service but attract more. There has been a big issue in attracting newer staff. We depend heavily on the retained fire service and indeed the full-time fire services across the country.

The recent wave of data from the census shows the rude good health of Waterford city with the population thumping forward by 10% in the seven years since the last count. The other cities in our Republic are also advancing, Cork, Galway, Dublin and Limerick by 8%. The radical changes shown in Census 2022 demonstrate that the Ireland 2040 strategy needs a rethink. It is not credible now that our regional cities will grow at double the rate of Dublin, certainly not while Dublin hoovers up most of the capital spending available. Even this week, almost half of the €1 billion HSE capital plan was swerved into Dublin. I want to put on the Dáil record today the derisory allocation of €7 million to University Hospital Waterford, the busiest hospital in the State for the past three months, when all of the other model 8 hospitals were allocated between €60 million and €90 million each. Waterford is the only regional city outgrowing Dublin. The asks for Waterford and the south east have been set and have been largely unactioned for a decade. A fair share of capital funding and strategic effort is sought but still denied in respect of our airport, the N25, the N24, a proper university, our hospital and proper and effective IDA action. Waterford, urbs intacta manet, the untaken city, in many ways under this Government is the forgotten city.

No Minister, no moolah, or largely no moolah. To be fair to the Minister, in his Department, the flagship project of the North Quays has advanced and I thank him sincerely for his personal involvement in that. It was first designated a strategic development zone by Paudie Coffey in a very go-getting phase of his career. The Minister committed €170 million to an investment that will heal an open wound in Waterford and the region. Waterford's 10% population growth is somewhat artificial, however, as the definition of the city excludes parts of the city core that are located in Ferrybank. The independent 2017 boundary commission report recommended the redrawing of the boundary to bring those parts of the city into the administrative zone. That report, if implemented, would have had electoral consequences for two sitting Deputies and so was not advanced at that time. It appears both these political machines are no longer strategically interested in the issue. The North Quays development has radically strengthened the case for taking up the boundary commission report. I urge the Minister to finish the good work he has started by investing in Waterford city and the region, and to address the boundary issue again.

I thank the Deputy for his question and his continuing engagement with regard to the development of Waterford and the south-east region. As he rightly said, the Government has invested very significantly in the region. I have been there many times myself. Indeed I met the Deputy there on a number of occasions. The urban regeneration and development Fund, URDF, funding for the North Quays, Waterford city, the surrounding county and indeed the region will be transformational. It is great to see contractors and work happening on the ground. That was total Exchequer funding of about €170 million with estimated overall investment in that project alone of over €207.5 million. I am aware the Minister, Deputy Simon Harris, has addressed the new technological university directly with the Deputy. Work is advancing on that and on the expansion of the site with the recent approved purchase of the Waterford Crystal site. The Minister, Deputy Harris, continues to prioritise two public-private partnership, PPP projects in bundle 2 for campuses in Waterford and indeed with Carlow.

On the boundary, I have no skin in the game whatsoever there. This is an issue that was dealt with before. The former Minister decided not to extend the boundary into Ferrybank. There are issues certainly with regard to Kilkenny and the region as to how it would be received down there. I want to be straight with the Deputy on this. I do not propose to make any changes to the county boundaries between Waterford and Kilkenny. I think the region can grow as a whole. A lot of work is done between Kilkenny City and County Council and Waterford City and County Council already. We can see that by some of the joint applications under URDF and when we have been there we have seen the benefit of the North Quays opening up that part of south Kilkenny as well. The two counties can and will develop together. I do not see how the expansion of the county boundary from Waterford into Kilkenny or a reallocation of boundaries would in any way further enhance what we are doing at the moment. I say that respectfully. Previously, this was a debate that was quite fraught. There are identities in relation to counties that people hold very dear and I fully understand that too. My and the Government's focus will be continuing to invest in Waterford and in the south-east region, which we have done at an unprecedented level. Boundary changes, while there may appear to be some logic on the map, are not going to do anything to drive further investment or growth within that region. Real, tangible investment in terms of what Government is doing and indeed by the private sector, and the jobs growth within Waterford are to be greatly welcomed. I and the Government will continue to support Waterford and the south-east region in its development.

The reason for looking for the extension to the boundary was to try to get more cohesive strategic planning within the city of Waterford and to give us proper access to develop the north side of the city. That has been a bugbear. I do recognise the greater integration and co-operative agreements between Waterford and Kilkenny local authorities. That is to be welcomed. I still think the boundary report should be reissued. I would say also that we have a second issue which is the recognition of the metropolitan boundary in Waterford city. The metropolitan boundary of Cork extends from Glanmire to Ballincollig, as the Minister knows, yet in Waterford we are not allowed to take Tramore, with over 10,000 people, into an administrative metropolitan boundary. It should extend down, in fact, to New Ross. I ask the Minister to have a look at that. It relates to nomenclature of territorial units for statistics, NUTS 3 analysis. When Government Departments are looking at funding allocations, our population comes up short. If Waterford is to be the strategic driver that the Government has within its programme for developing the south east, we need to get at least the metropolitan boundary recognised properly for what it is and have it included properly in further analysis.

I thank the Deputy for his recognition that there is more cohesive and strategic planning between the two local authorities and indeed in the region. It is important that can continue and that it improves into the future. The issue with the metropolitan boundary is something we can certainly have a look at. The Deputy has made that point to me before. It is within Waterford and within the city metropolitan boundary itself with no further expansion of the county or reallocation of county boundaries. I want to be clear on that. Within the metropolitan area, that is certainly something that is being looked at but that we will assess. I will continue to engage with the Deputy on it. Fundamentally for ourselves in government and for him as a Deputy from Waterford, we want to see the investment that is being put in place in Waterford coming to fruition. We want to see boots on the ground in Waterford in respect of the fantastic developments around the north and south quays and right around through the city itself. It is great to see. We want to continue to support that and continue to support smaller projects. We are advancing housing within Waterford as well with the delivery of affordable housing, cost rental properties and affordable purchase. I will keep the Deputy informed of progress.

I wish to return to the matter of industrial relations difficulties in local government, in particular the difficulty faced by retained firefighters across the country and that faced by water workers who are not intending to transfer to Irish Water. I raised this matter with the Tánaiste, the Minister's party leader, last week. He urged that water workers engage with the industrial relations machinery of the State. However, the difficulty is that they already have engaged with that industrial relations machinery. A framework came out and the Minister welcomed the framework. It was all great. The Minister even wrote a letter to the Irish Congress of Trade Unions saying the framework would be honoured in spirit and in letter.

However, it seems it will not be when it comes to Irish Water workers who wish to remain in the local authorities because they are not being guaranteed their allowances. They cannot get a guarantee around that. They have been in protracted negotiations with the LGMA. While yes, they are free to stay, and yes, there has been progress as the Minister correctly pointed out, on some of the issues, there is no progress on allowances, in particular their weekend allowances. They work over seven days. Most, not all, but most local authority employees work over five days but they work over seven. That allowance is a significant part of their income on a weekly basis and it is also pensionable. It will have large ramifications for workers. Many of them are approaching pensionable age. I dare say many of those will remain in local authorities. With a little bit of ingenuity, many roles in local authorities other than water workers require seven-day cover, for example caretakers. There are many others. If there was any will from the LGMA and from the local authority senior management to accommodate them they could easily be accommodated.

Similarly with firefighters. They voted for industrial action last January. They have been negotiating with the LGMA. There is a huge retention crisis in almost all of the bases in Clare. There are fire services in Ennistimon, Kilrush, Shannon, Killaloe and Scariff. All of them perform a hugely valuable role. They are first responders, not just to fires but to traffic accidents. I should add Ennis also has a retained fire service. Not all the staff in Ennis are retained but the majority are. In Shannon, for example, they provide a back up. That might be anathema or a surprise to the Minister in north County Dublin but in Shannon, retained firefighters provide valuable back-up services to Shannon Airport.

Why would that be anathema to me?

They are understaffed right across to the extent that it is dangerous. They are putting their lives at risk. What is the Minister, Deputy O'Brien, as the line Minister responsible, going to do to avert these impending strikes?

Just to bring the Deputy back, it is important to state that I have great respect for the men and women in the retained fire services. I met many of them throughout the country. That is why I commissioned the report into the retained fire services in Ireland with an emphasis on issues the Deputy mentioned, namely, recruitment and retention. As I said to Deputy Duncan Smith earlier, we had more than 1,000 submissions to that, many of them from firefighters themselves. In December I accepted the recommendation of the management board of the national directorate for fire and emergency management to publish the completed review. I brought it to Cabinet. To be clear, the Government accepted the findings of the report, noting the 13 recommendations contained to address those issues around recruitment and retention in retained fire services and, importantly, to ensure its sustainability into the future particularly around recruitment.

Discussions between staff and employer representatives on the 13 recommendations began and we established the fire services national oversight implementation group to which the Deputy referred and that was chaired by Mr. David Begg in January 2023. The LGMA was involved. It was supported by the Chief Fire Officers Association and officials from my Department. Following a proposal by staff side representatives, discussions on the priority industrial relations, issues of remuneration and work-life balance were moved to third-party facilitation form. That was agreed again by all. Mr. Ultan Courtney was subsequently engaged by the LGMA at the behest of SIPTU to chair those discussions. Broadly, they went very well. The agreed key deliverable required that the process is a revised composite agreement that would be agreed by all stakeholders. That will standardise future employment terms and conditions across all local authorities, including pay and allowances. During those discussions, real progress was made on the provision of a revised model of retained fire services delivery that would provide for effective service delivery and a suitable work-life balance as I mentioned earlier, including structured time off, which is a major issue for people who work in the retained fire services. However at this stage it has not been possible to reach a positive conclusion of that process to the satisfaction of all of the parties. I have outlined to Deputy Duncan Smith a flavour of the things that were offered. SIPTU notified all local authorities of the intention of the retained fire services to begin a period of industrial action from 6 June with weekly escalations following that. It will not affect emergency service provision. A small number of issues are outstanding, mainly related to a pay element that can be resolved. However, we also have the public sector pay talks - Deputy McNamara will be coming back in in a second - in relation to Building Momentum. Therefore we cannot do it necessarily outside of that. We made real progress on the rostering, on time off and on allowances also. I want this to be resolved. I have retained the fire services directly under myself. I have not delegated that function because I have immense regard for it. We can resolve it. There is a desire to do so.

Is the Minister saying that the retainer paid to retained firefighters is going to be linked to the pay of other public service employees as part of the public service agreement, guaranteeing them a real, proper wage? That is something they would welcome but I do not believe that is what the Minister is saying. I would very much like to see that happening because of the service that they provide. Of course many of them are already on social welfare so it is already costing the State because due to the onerous requirements around being a retained fire officer, it is very hard to get employment. If an employer is willing to facilitate them, they have to be within a certain distance from the station.

In regard to the other successful negotiations that the Minister pointed to and how well they were going, but for the fact that there is going to be a strike next week, does the LGMA enjoy some kind of a veto over the Department? The Government signed off on something and agreed with something and then it passed it back to negotiations and the LGMA vetoed it. The Minister wrote in a letter to Congress that their pay would be honoured in spirit and in letter. Will they get their weekend allowance? Is the LGMA going to be allowed to be allowed to veto it, as the LGMA is allowed to veto progress with regard to the retained fire officers?

No party has a veto. I am not going to negotiate here in the Dáil. I have outlined very significant progress that we have made. There is a desire among all parties to get this resolved. It has been a difficult process right the way through. The first thing I did when appointed Minister was to remove any reference to the fact that there would be any compulsory transfer. There will be no compulsory transfers. Anyone who wants to stay in local government will stay in local government and his or her pay and conditions will be protected. I put that in writing, myself. That is absolute fact. There are issues around overtime and allowances, which I believe are eminently resolvable. We have already said with regard to allowances that for someone who stays in the local government sector that the equivalent overtime will be offered in that space. I have today written to the unions. I have asked them to re-engage under the Irish Water consultative group. I do not believe there is a need for industrial action. I do not believe there is a need for the public to be discommoded in any way over a very small number of issues.

I thank the Minister.

I am asking people and unions to re-engage with a process that has worked very well. We are close to its finalisation. Sometimes things can get tricky towards the end. That can happen just before an agreement but I believe that an agreement can be made and I am open for that to happen.

It is 25% of their pay. That is not a small issue.

That concludes Leaders' Questions.

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