Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 1 Jun 2023

Vol. 1039 No. 5

Criminal Justice (Engagement of Children in Criminal Activity) Bill 2023: Second Stage (Resumed)

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

The Taoiseach's trip to Washington this year was defined by gaffes and mistakes. I was alarmed when he said about human trafficking: "It's not a particular issue for us in Ireland because our seas are so vast that people can't get there on small boats." I had to read it twice when I saw it reported from Washington. It will have come as a shock to anyone in the United States Government, which only a few years previously had put Ireland on the human trafficking watch list. Any Member of this House who has done an ounce of research on this topic will know that human trafficking does not necessarily involve the crossing of international borders and that much of the trafficking in this country is domestic. Much of it relates to the sexual exploitation of children, and we have a serious and severe problem with trafficking in this country. The Taoiseach's comments illustrate how clueless he is on the topic. He and his colleagues would benefit from familiarising themselves with the definition of "human trafficking". Once and for all, this country should stop conflating the issues of human trafficking, migrant smuggling and immigration. Human trafficking is a stand-alone human rights issue, one that affects Irish nationals. It is not something that always involves boats, seas and activities in the dead of night.

If people look around our towns and cities, they will see that human trafficking is alive and hidden in plain sight. According to data released to Aontú by the Department of Justice, just three people have been convicted in the District Courts for human trafficking in the past ten years, despite 1,000 cases going before them. Ireland has a shameful international record on the issue of human trafficking. We need to collect better data. Ógra Aontú tabled a motion on this topic at our Ard-Fheis and Aontú's spokesperson on children and equality, Mr. Luke Silke, has carried out significant research in this area.

The Bill deals with human trafficking. Curiously, though, it does not mention human trafficking once. The Bill is making the exploitation of children for the purpose of criminal activity an offence and, on the face of it, it looks good. However, there are flaws, which I will detail.

There is a lack of recognition of the victimhood of the child in this Bill. We are discussing situations where children are given drugs in their schoolbags to be intercepted on their way to school. We are discussing situations where drugs are being pushed on children to get them addicted and those children are then being forced to get involved in crime to pay for the drugs and to work for their dealers. In my reading of it, the Bill would lead to a situation where vulnerable children were required to testify against hardened criminals or, in some cases, their own parents, which would be very difficult for children and could put them in danger. Obviously, children who are viewed as touting against hardened criminals are in significant danger. What specialised supports will be put in place to help any child who testifies against an adult who has groomed or exploited him or her? This important question needs to be answered.

The Bill neglects children who have been victims of child sexual exploitation, which is the largest type of trafficking in Ireland. The Bill is making the grooming of children for criminal activity an offence. However, if a child is a victim of sexual abuse or exploitation, that child would not be seen as a criminal and, therefore, the perpetrator or trafficker could fall outside the scope of the punishments set out in the Bill. A child can never consent to his or her own exploitation. I recommend a review of the language set out in the Bill to ensure that there is no confusion in this regard.

Minister of State at the Department of Justice (Deputy James Browne)

On a point of order, it is already a criminal offence to sexually abuse a child. Let us be clear on that.

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

Yes, we know that.

Deputy James Browne

The Deputy is saying it is not-----

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

No, I am not.

Deputy James Browne

-----because it is not in this Bill.

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

I am not saying that at all. If the Minister of State had listened to what I said, he would know I did not say that. Rather, I am saying that the child himself or herself is not involved in a criminal activity if he or she is being exploited sexually.

The penalties in the Bill are weak. Child criminal exploitation is a form of human trafficking and should be considered a serious form of child abuse. The financial penalties associated with that need to be measured against the income generated by the criminal organisations in question. The EU recommends that we not apply penalties against children who have been victims of trafficking. Regarding the non-prosecution or non-application of penalties to the victim, the 2011 EU directive states:

Member States shall ... ensure that competent national authorities are entitled not to prosecute or impose penalties on victims of trafficking in human beings for their involvement in criminal activities which they have been compelled to commit as a direct consequence of being [coerced or trafficked].

As such, there are flaws in this legislation.

I wish to acknowledge that, since I last called in the House for front-line professionals to be trained in how to identify the warning signs of trafficking, Tusla has taken up the suggestion and is in the process of implementing that training. This is a positive development that we in Aontú welcome. I will also call for gardaí to receive similar training on trafficking, particularly as it relates to the forced recruitment of children by criminal gangs for criminal activity.

The victimhood of these children is being overlooked. The Bill is not an appropriate response to the matter, as it appears to rely somewhat on children providing evidence and thereby increasing their vulnerability to harm. Victim-centric amendments to the Bill need to be explored. The EU directive speaks strongly in this regard. The Mercy Effort for Child Protection Against Trafficking with the Hospitality Sector, or MECPATHs, does fantastic work in this area by raising awareness of child trafficking and training people in how to spot it. My parliamentary assistant and I met Ms Ann Mara and Mr. J. P. O'Sullivan. We were impressed by the energy they brought to their activism. They are seeking a child-specific national referral mechanism to be included in plans.

This request has been echoed by the Children's Rights Alliance and responds to the Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission's call for more focus on child trafficking. Child trafficking is a huge problem in this country whether for sexual, criminal or labour exploitation. Ireland has still not ratified the second optional protocol on the sale of children. Promises of this ratification roll in year after year and are not fulfilled. Ireland is only one of three member states that have not ratified it. Can the Government get this done before the recess? What is the reluctance on this? Why the continued promises? There are 23-year old adults walking around who were born the year the Government promised to ratify it. How many of those adults needed that protocol and have never benefited from it?

Deputy Alan Farrell

I am very pleased to contribute to the debate. I believe it is a very important step in our efforts to protect some of the most vulnerable people in our society. The grooming of children to participate or partake in crime is a serious issue that destroys countless lives and limits the untold potential of young people across the State and, therefore, I strongly support this legislation, which will allow authorities to bring to justice adults who groom children into a life of crime and those who seek to procure a child to commit a crime. The introduction of the Bill, on which I commend the Minister of State and his Department, fulfils a commitment in the programme for Government and is the latest measure the Government has introduced to modernise our legal system and laws. In doing so we bring our laws up to date with the world around us and the reality of criminality in modern Ireland.

Moreover, it addresses a problem that has long been overlooked in society. The number of children involved in criminality is alarming and a number of studies in recent years have reaffirmed this. Studies show that up to 1,000 children in Ireland are either involved in crime or at risk of being lured into criminal activity. We know from Garda figures that one in eight children participating in the Garda youth diversion programme has been groomed into criminal activity. The programme is of huge value to the entire community and young people that engage with it. I hope that with adequate resourcing, the programme can prevent crime and, in some cases, literally save lives. We also know for many of the children groomed into criminal activity this is done by a family member. A number of serious situations culminate to facilitate this. Studies show that catalysts for this include the normalisation of criminal behaviour, substance abuse, a family history of criminality and more. Furthermore, impacted children are also at exponentially higher risk of developing substance abuse and dropping out of education, and mixed with a culture of fear and intimidation that accompanies criminal organisations and their participants can mean that children can feel as though they have no escape and no hope of a better life outside criminality. This is a situation in which no child should find themselves and those responsible for creating the circumstances in which a child is coerced or groomed into crime should be brought to justice and face severe consequences for their crimes. This also speaks to the wider societal problem that creates the necessary conditions for criminality to take root.

This covers a wide range of factors that will take time to remedy completely but stamping out crime in our communities requires building community bonds where residents feel a connection and a responsibility to their community. We need a society where individuals support each other rather than trying to push one another down and we need more local amenities and resources for young people so they have a place to go and engage in positive activities. I want to highlight the importance of resource allocation, training and individuals on the ground in An Garda Síochána and Tusla. It is always difficult, particularly when the economy is doing exceptionally well, to recruit individuals to An Garda Síochána and to entice sufficient numbers with the prerequisite skills into Tusla to support communities, particularly those ravaged by crime or drugs. While I appreciate that the Government has done a great deal in recent years, there are issues with recruitment and retention both in An Garda Síochána and Tusla. I ask the Minister of State and his colleagues to redouble their efforts to ensure there is adequate personnel to support communities and encourage young people to stay out of a life of crime.

However, as I said, very good work is being done both at governmental level and in local communities. With sufficient and adequate resourcing to support communities, they can go from strength to strength and they can turn the tide on organised crime groups and violence, and the fear and oppression that these individuals experience and that criminals engage with and the wider law-abiding citizens.

I very much look forward to the passage of the Bill and the implementation of the measures within it. I believe it will enhance the protection of vulnerable children and bring justice to some of those who feel above the law.

Deputy Thomas Gould

I welcome the opportunity to contribute to the debate and to see this legislation progress to protect children from the harms of criminality. It is no secret that young people are engaging in crime and being groomed into this lifestyle. I would like the Minister of State to address the lack of resources for children who engage in criminality and antisocial behaviour who are under the age of 12. Gardaí can do nothing because these children are below the age of criminal responsibility and Tusla does not appear to regard criminality as an area in which it can intervene. This means there is a Catch-22 where gardaí cannot intervene because the children are too young and Tusla thinks it is not its responsibility which creates a gap. I ask the Minister of State to examine that. It leaves children to spiral further into difficult situations and puts them at odds with their communities. It is a complex issue because no one wants to see children of eight, nine or ten years arrested but there needs to be intervention because these children are victims too. We often see different gangs target young children, especially around drugs. They coach them by giving them drugs and then lure the children into criminality.

More needs to be done to educate young people on this and the realities of criminal links to the drug trade. Many young people learn about drug use the wrong way. They learn about it on the streets and from people who try to prey on them. More needs to be done from an educational perspective and, therefore, it is vital that the legislation is coupled with educational supports in schools. We need to ensure that every child has at least one trusted adult, whether at home or in school, to whom they can speak to on this. The legislation is a step forward. It needs to be part of a suite of measures to protect children. If we can get young people into their mid-20s, it will give them an opportunity to get on with their lives. I have dealt with a number of cases in Cork relating to children under 12 years. I have raised it with An Garda Síochána and contacted Tusla. The children are being allowed to get into criminal activity. Who is there to step in? Where is their future? We can see these children now. They are at risk and vulnerable. I would like a lot more resources put into community and youth groups and schools. I take what the Minister of State is trying to do; he is trying to protect children and we support that but we need to go further.

Deputy Carol Nolan

I welcome the opportunity to speak on this important Bill that is in line with the commitment in the programme for Government to criminalise adults who groom children to commit crimes. Grooming children in any sense is absolutely despicable. To use them and exploit them for criminal, sexual or commercial gain is a crime that cries out to heaven and has to be condemned in the strongest terms.

Indeed, as our Lord once said, if anyone harms one of these little ones, it would be better for them to have a millstone thrown around their neck and be thrown into the sea.

Returning to the specific provisions of the Bill, I welcome section 2, which proposes to create two new offences. The first provision makes it an offence for an adult to compel, coerce, direct or deceive a child, for the purpose of causing that child to commit a crime. The second provision makes it an offence to induce, invite, aid, abet, counsel or procure a child to commit a crime. In both cases, as the note from the Library and Research Service makes clear, the person committing the crime must be aware or reckless as to whether the person being compelled to commit the crime is a child. It is not, however, a requirement that the child engaged in the criminal activity concerned intended to commit the activity or has been prosecuted for the relevant offence. This balance is correct because it returns the primary responsibility to the adult in the situation.

We know from bitter experience that some children are being used to transport drugs from one location to another in this country. Indeed, as the findings of the national prevalence study show, a minority, or one in eight, children involved in the Garda diversion programme fit the profile, indicating that an estimated 1,000 children across the State could be involved with criminal networks.

In terms of the drugs issue, I want to highlight data around the number of Garda members assigned to the Laois-Offaly divisional drug unit of An Garda Síochána. The data show categorically that it has the lowest number of Garda members assigned to it when compared with every other county and Garda division in this State. In fact, these data confirmed the assignment of just one Garda member, which I could not actually believe and had to double-check, to the Laois-Offaly divisional drug unit. I commend the dedication and commitment of all Garda members across Laois-Offaly, who are operating in increasingly difficult and unacceptable circumstances. However, these data make it absolutely clear that the constituency of Laois-Offaly is profoundly under-resourced when it comes to staff members being assigned to the divisional drugs unit. Why are Laois and Offaly the only counties in the entire State with just one garda assigned to this role? Apart from County Wexford, we are also the only counties without any member of the rank of sergeant attached to the drugs unit. This is entirely unacceptable, and I would hope that it will be addressed. There are 332 members assigned to the various divisional drugs units and yet here we are in Laois-Offaly with still just one member assigned. I want answers on this as a matter of urgency because my constituents are also asking the same question. Laois and Offaly, no more than most other counties, are struggling to respond to the social and criminal harm caused by the sale and consumption of illegal drugs. We deserve, like every other county at this state, to be properly resourced in that fight.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

I too am delighted to be able to speak to some extent on this Bill today. It is vital that we talk of early intervention for any of us who have children, teenage children or, in my own case, grandchildren and for na daoine óga throughout the community - mol an óige agus tiocfaidh sí. That old adage is a strength to us. There is a huge difference. It was a much simpler time when they were brought up in their homes with the meitheal. They did not have the Internet and we did not have these perpetrators of heinous crimes.

I welcome this legislation to try to protect our children from predators and people who try to use them for drug trafficking or traffic them in any way, shape or form. It is obviously necessary. It is grand to come in and introduce legislation here, as we have with much legislation, and talk about the justice system. We see how the numbers in enforcement agencies, whether it be An Garda Síochána, the juvenile liaison officer, JLO, system or Garda diversion programmes, have been ransacked and ravaged by the crash. They were starting to beef up numbers and get fairly strong before the crash in 2008 but they have not got those numbers back in any shape, make or form.

Like Deputy Nolan and others, I want to compliment the Garda Síochána and different JLOs we have had. I have worked with two or three of them in my time in politics. The do, and have done, some amazing work but they cannot move a mountain. They cannot be everywhere. County Tipperary was a massive division. Now, it is amalgamated with County Clare, which is a pure ridiculous situation. The chief superintendent is now based in Ennis. We have to go through County Limerick to get to Ennis. It is taking away the local connectivity with An Garda Síochána.

This legislation today is to deal with this huge problem we have with young people being sucked into all kinds of horrific situations. On drugs alone, it is just scary. We are all aware of it. It is anecdotal that young people are being used as mules - I hate using that name - in my own County Tipperary and other places to transport drugs. Children as young as eight and nine are cycling around and everything else.

We are also aware of different cases where An Garda Síochána made extensive searches, and drugs that were sent to schools in schoolbags have been detected. That people are prepared to do that with young people - their own families even - just beggars belief. We are kind of sleepwalking. We have sleepwalked into this situation. As Deputy Nolan mentioned in reference to Laois and Offaly, our drugs task force in Tipperary is diminished beyond all recognition. Places like the Clonmel and Carrick-on-Suir and every town and village in the country have problems, as we know.

To try to nurture and save our young people is what this Bill is meant to be about. I agree with and welcome the provisions of section 2. However, are we going to have the personnel? Are we going to have the resources? Are we going to have the different Government agencies like Tusla and others that should be involved? Indeed, we all mention education, which is very important from the cradle to the grave. However, the school curriculum is already stretched and overloaded. We are going to have to change our curriculum to deal with na daoine óga and the people who could or will become vulnerable. We have data that will tell us what kind of demographics or situations they come from.

As I said, the Bill is necessary, but we need to have resources. We need to support the JLOs. One JLO cannot deal with half a county. They deal with people, and they have done great work, as have the Garda diversion programmes. As I said, however, they have not been complemented with staff. We must also look at that.

We have situations now, which has been discussed on the public airwaves, of food outlets being tormented by young people, and you hate to see it. When they are under 12 years old, the Garda cannot deal with them. I am not saying Tusla seems to think it has no responsibility, but it does not have any responsibility. I have many serious issues with Tusla. This issue has been all over the public airwaves, however. People have discussed it and the managers of outlets cannot deal with this situation. Then, the gardaí are involved and they cannot deal with it. It is an awful pity to see that happening because we do not want any young person or child to be induced, seduced or encouraged in any way. I welcome the provision in the Bill to make that an offence. It is very important.

How are we going to engage with na daoine óga? Many of these children might be outside the school system as well. As I said, Tusla would normally have responsibility for children in any kind of danger but in this area of criminality, it does not seem to be able to deal with it. Serious questions have to be asked about the resources and tools of the trade for officers of the law and, indeed, whatever new officers we encourage. It is not all about uniformed gardaí coming in. Mol an óige agus tiocfaidh sí.

We should try to encourage and stimulate them. Youth clubs have to be supported. We must try to get them into organisations such as those but we are failing to do so. That is true in my county and I am sure it is no different in many other counties. There is a highly professional drug trade going on and those involved use very old and very young people to further that trade. The operation is sophisticated and hugely financially rewarding. This legislation on its own certainly will not tackle the issue. Children, as I have said, are put in considerable danger. There is a danger to them and to everybody else. Those children do not know better than not to enter such a life. It is a serious issue. In fact, it has reached crisis point in many areas. People seem to want to ignore it but we cannot do so. All of us in this House have a duty to do anything we can to protect our most vulnerable young people and get them on the right road.

It was different when we were young. We were dealt with in different ways but we were encouraged and there was no proliferation of drugs or other heinous issues that exist for children today, such as those relating to child sex, pornography and everything else. Those issues were not there in my time, at least not so far as I was aware. The Internet and new forms of communication mean it is possible to possess and use certain things wrongfully. We need this legislation but legislation alone will not cut it unless we commit enormous resources. We do not have those resources. There are issues in respect of recruiting gardaí to the Garda College in Templemore. Community gardaí should have a big role in this area but their numbers have been diminished considerably. Community gardaí did tremendous work. I could name some people but I will not. They did tremendous work in the communities, and they still do but their numbers have been greatly diminished. There are only two community gardaí in Clonmel, which is a large town. There was a sergeant and five gardaí only a couple of years ago. Those are the people who get into the communities. They get involved in community activities in youth clubs and homework clubs. They also visit schools for sports days and whatever else. They got involved but they do not have the numbers of resources to do so now. We are losing the game. A lot of catch-up is being played. We need stronger and more robust legislation than this Bill to deal with these issues. We need a sea change in attitudes towards what is going on. What we do not need is a nod and a wink or for a blind eye to allow the situation to carry on. We cannot say it is fine and dismiss it as an issue of the underworld. It is going to have massive consequences. I am supporting this legislation but I do not believe it goes far enough.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

I am grateful for the opportunity to make a contribution. This is important legislation. It is a topic on which Sinn Féin has been active for a long time, as the Minister of State will be aware. With that in mind, I will mention my colleagues Deputies Ward, Mitchell and Martin Kenny, who brought forward the Coercion of a Minor (Misuse of Drugs Amendment) Bill 2022. That Bill was without doubt the catalyst for the legislation we have in front of us today. There is no doubt in my mind but that the two Bills are linked.

It is bad enough for an adult to be involved in criminality but it takes real evil to compel, coerce, direct or deceive a child into carrying out criminal acts. An adult who does so should face the full rigour of the law. It is important that we legislate to create a specific criminal offence for an adult who compels, coerces, directs or deceives a child into carrying out criminal acts, or who induces, invites, aids, abets, counsels or procures a child to engage in criminal activity. Therefore, the sentence must match the nature of the crime and we believe the maximum sentence of five years is simply not strong enough. In the Sinn Féin Coercion of a Minor (Misuse of Drugs Amendment) Bill 2022, we proposed a ten-year sentence, which reflects the gravity of the crime. This is necessary, given the seriousness of the issue and the impact such behaviour can have on the child in question and the wider community where these offences are occurring.

In addition, we must also do more to protect children and communities, build resilience and divert children away from the criminal justice system. The approach to doing this must tackle the main players in organised crime, especially drug crime, and tackle poverty and inequality. Areas which are ravaged by drugs and crime are the same areas that are ravaged by a lack of services, poverty, a lack of housing, unemployment, underemployment, homelessness and a dearth of community and sporting facilities. While we must tackle crime, we must also make the alternative to crime more attractive for young people. We must ensure that work pays and workers have their rights respected. We must make housing affordable, available and accessible. We must pay workers a living wage, abolish sub-minimum rates of pay, ensure car insurance is accessible and affordable, and guarantee apprentices the minimum wage when they start an apprenticeship. All of these things can show young people that there is a better, honest and more attractive way to live than engaging in crime. In addition, we need to empower communities to tackle inequality and poverty, and ensure that those same communities have services and facilities, especially sports facilities. The reason I am labouring the point about investment in sporting and community facilities is that being involved in community clubs and sports is a good foundation for us to give our young people. It gives them an alternative to what they might see as a potentially flashy or attractive type of lifestyle.

Deputy Thomas Pringle

I am grateful for the opportunity to speak on this Bill. This is important legislation and I support its introduction. The rise in the involvement of young people in crime is concerning. Some 400 drug offences were committed by children and adolescents aged ten to 17 in 2016 and that number rose to approximately 1,000 in 2020. It is clear that legislation is needed to address this issue but we cannot rely on legislation alone. I will also speak to that fact.

Young people in this country should not face recruitment into crime and we should be doing everything in our power to address this, not just at an urban level but at a national level. The national prevalence study in 2017 showed that the same issues were seen by Garda juvenile liaison officers nationally and were not confined to urban areas. It is for that reason I support this Bill's intention to make it an offence for an adult to compel, coerce, direct or deceive a child for the purpose of causing that child to commit a crime and the intention to make it an offence to induce or invite a child to commit a crime.

A number of reports over the past two decades have analysed the issue of children in Ireland being recruited to commit a crime and they all underline the need for legislative intervention in this area. This legislation is welcome and timely, given the significant rise in the numbers of young people involved in crime. An important aspect of the legislation is that it is not a requirement for a child to intend to commit a crime or for a child to be prosecuted for an offence for an adult to be charged for trying to engage a child in criminality. It is important that we intervene as early as possible and not wait until a child has actually committed a crime before an adult is prosecuted for his or her involvement.

Another important aspect of this Bill is that lower levels of criminality are involved. Facilitating earlier intervention by capturing lower levels of criminality that children may be recruited to engage in before progressing to more serious offending is extremely important. However, we should also be looking at ensuring even earlier intervention than this. It has been reported time and time again that adults within a criminal network often recruit and groom certain vulnerable local children to commit crimes. The University of Limerick's Greentown report shows that children are often selected because of their personal vulnerability, a family history of criminal association through elder siblings, poor supervision, parental incapacity compounded by alcohol and drugs misuse, the absence of a father figure or the presence of an ineffective father figure, or a combination of all these factors. It is important that we are getting to vulnerable young people before they are targeted. The Greentown report also recommended the design of a programme to include interventions with children and their families to help them to withstand the influence of criminal networks.

We are quick to jump to legislation and prosecution as the answer without considering other, and often more effective, approaches. Why? It is less costly and a quick fix to introduce legislation. It does not involve proper engagement with communities or the issues they are facing. God forbid we would go to the root of the problem and address the fact that it is often severe income inequality and poverty that causes these issues in the first place. We need to start addressing the reasons young people might want to engage in crime. The juvenile justice, crime and early intervention study of 2011 detailed the substantial social reasons for the involvement of children in criminal activity. It highlighted the respect and validation that young people derive from their participation in gangs and criminal activity. The reality is that in most cases, the State has failed these young people and their communities. In search of another structure that might support them and give them a sense of validation and dignity in their lives, many young people turn to criminal gangs. The role of social stratification in the engagement of young people in crime cannot be underestimated.

It is all well and good for legislation to be debated in the Chamber but we need to base it on reality and consider its actual application. The reality is, as IHREC has pointed out, children involved in the criminal networks are often groomed by older family members, including parents. Are we to force children to give evidence against their own family members? Are we considering what position we are putting the child in in this case, and should their family members, particularly parents, face prosecution? Have we considered the effect that this may have on the child as well?

In addition, would an unintended consequence of the legislation be more pressure on young people to recruit their peers into crime? As we know, peer pressure is very influential and can often be even more influential than pressure from adults. I support the Bill, but the age should be raised to at least 21 because 18 is far too young and, as I said, legislation is not enough. We need to ensure that we are addressing the root cause of crime and we are serious about addressing this issue. The root cause of crime is not crime itself but the circumstances that force young people to consider crime as a way of advancement. Ultimately, unless we address those issues, we will never see a reduction in lives being destroyed by involvement in crime or the causes of the crime as well.

I am also concerned about the likelihood or otherwise of this legislation being implemented. Often the passing of legislation in the House gives the impression that the problem is solved, which is far from the fact. Will this legislation be implemented and will it be implemented in a timely manner as well? The list of Bills that are only part-implemented and part-enacted across all Departments is shocking. It undermines the legislative process, and the idea that the problem is solved once the legislation is passed in the House is not actually the case. That is vitally important as well.

I thank the Leas-Cheann Comhairle for her indulgence.

Deputy Dessie Ellis

I welcome both the Bill and the new approach to dealing with child crime, which sees children more as victims of exploitation and not simply as delinquents intent on criminal or antisocial activity. The Bill provides for the prosecution of adults who groom children to commit crimes. It is something that has been advocated for by me and other Members of the Oireachtas across all parties for a number of years. It is an unfortunate fact that I see, in areas of my constituency of Dublin North-West, children committing and being drawn into crime under the guidance and direction of older people.

As far back as 2017, a report published by Professor Geoffrey Shannon identified the key threats to the safety and protection of children in Ireland. In his report, Professor Shannon recommended the introduction of a so-called Fagin's law to protect children from being groomed into a life of crime. He identified real-life situations where children were being actively groomed by drug gangs and other criminals to carry out serious crimes.

While the drug problem can be seen across all communities and demographics, it is mainly vulnerable communities and disadvantaged areas that are most impacted by the use and distribution of illegal drugs. These communities are being terrorised and intimidated by those involved in the drugs trade and families are increasingly fearful of their children being exposed to drugs but also of them being sucked into the criminal activity around the drugs trade.

I am aware of children being groomed by adults and older youths to help in the sale and supply of drugs or to hold weapons and quantities of cash for drug gangs. These drug gangs use a number of methods to groom children to be involved in this illicit trade. Children are being enticed by the false glamour of the drugs trade. Others are forced and cajoled into being involved in this criminal behaviour.

Those who groom children to be involved in criminal activity could not care less about the consequences for the child of his or her involvement in this criminal activity. They only care about enriching themselves at the expense of the destruction of a child's life and future. Why do such gangsters abuse children in this way? The answer is that the drug dealers are being watched by the Garda, unlike children, who are less likely to be caught.

The Bill is an important tool to protect children who are being groomed and exploited by gangsters, and will also draw together and simplify existing complex rules on complicity and incitement making it easier for the Garda and parents to identify what is criminal exploitative behaviour.

Deputy Chris Andrews

I welcome the opportunity to speak on the Bill.

It is a sad reflection on society that so many children are being groomed into a life of crime. It is a shocking image of deterioration of communities. It is a clear reflection on many of the failings of Fine Gael over the past 12 years in government.

Working communities have been abandoned and left behind at the mercy of thugs. Many of the families living in these communities feel like they are living under siege. Not only have these communities been failed, but also the rank and file members of the Garda have been failed by 12 years of Fine Gael in government. They have seen Garda numbers and resources reducing year-on-year in Dublin. The Government, like its predecessor, is failing front-line gardaí and emergency responders. Gardaí have been warning of the legal risk they face when responding to an emergency callout. It is unacceptable the members are left exposed to dangerous driving charges. It is also unacceptable that, in 2023, there is still no training for gardaí involved in pursuit. Now we have a garda facing potential charges for pursuing a crime gang that brought misery and terror to families and communities for years. What will the Government do to give emergency responders the necessary legal protections to carry out their job? It is demoralising for so many gardaí on the front line to know that they have to let many of these thugs escape. It is demoralising for the gardaí and for the local communities that they are supporting.

Anyone living, or involved, in these communities can clearly see the increasing number of children being groomed by drug gangs as foot soldiers. For example, in Pearse House, young children, from the ages of 8, 9 and ten up, are being paid to smash up closed circuit television, CCTV, cameras and bring drugs from one location to another. Children aged ten, 11 and 12 are being paid to carry money from one location to another for these criminal gangs. The resources that the gardaí have available to them are inadequate for them to address the real dangers and concerns that communities have.

Residents in Pearse House feel that they have been let down by the Government because of the lack of resources being put into communities. There was an issue where Dublin City Council put in CCTV all around the blocks in Pearse House. The children were paid to go up and drop blocks on the CCTV and smash them. That hinders the ability of the Garda and Dublin City Council to operate. Effectively, it is almost a no-go area for many families and children. It is demoralising because 98% or 99% of the people living in Pearse Street in that community are good decent hard-working people who worked throughout the pandemic. They were on the front line in the pandemic and they have been let down by the State. They have been let down by Government.

These children are being exploited by these gangs to move and sell drugs because of their age. Many will end up leaving school early and will never get the opportunities in life that they deserve.

I welcome this Bill but we must acknowledge that it alone will not be the solution. We cannot police our way out of the current crisis that communities are facing. It is part of the solution but we need to see local communities effectively resourced. Local communities benefit greatly from active community gardaí. We need to see increased support for community gardaí and an increase in youth diversion projects. The Proceeds of Crime (Investment in Disadvantaged Communities) (Amendment) Bill 2021, introduced by my colleague, Deputy Mark Ward, needs to be implemented. It has the potential to free up more money to support the communities that are suffering most at the hands of these gangs.

In the north inner city, we saw the positive impact the Mulvey report has had. In the south inner city, we did not. All those increased resources and supports for the inner city stopped exactly at the River Liffey and the south inner city was forgotten about, despite the north and south inner city being very much one community.

We have a fantastic youth group in the Pearse Street area called the Talk about Youth project. It is doing brilliant work engaging with young people in the area and that is having a positive impact but, again, it does not have the resources. It does not have its own facility and if it needs a facility in which to work with young people, it has to book it in advance. That is not the way in which any modern-day youth group should have to work. These youth groups need to be provided with dedicated facilities that will give them certainty and security and support the important work they do.

We all know what needs to be done. If all the political parties and groups show some will and determination, we can start delivering the resources and supports that will protect children from these drugs gangs.

Minister of State at the Department of Justice (Deputy James Browne)

I thank the Deputies for their contributions, not least those who made significant contributions to campaigning for this type of legislation, including the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, when she was in opposition, and Sinn Féin Deputies. I welcome the high level of interest and support from all the speakers for this important new legislation. I am encouraged by the recognition that the Bill will make a significant difference to the lives of vulnerable children who have been groomed into criminal activity and the broad support expressed for what will become a critical tool in the suite of measures available to tackle this serious issue.

The Bill will introduce important measures to deal with adults who groom children into a life of crime. It will, for the first time in Irish law, make it an offence for an adult to compel, coerce, direct or deceive a child for the purpose of engaging in criminal activity or for an adult to induce, invite, aid, abet, counsel or procure a child to engage in criminal activity. The Bill will specifically address the harm done by adults who groom children into criminal activity. Until now, the law has not recognised that there are two distinct sides to this type of crime, namely, the visible crime against the victim and the grave wrong against the child.

It is vital the legislation will be able to be used to be tackle all forms of crime into which children are groomed to carry out. As I said yesterday, its provisions have been tailored to enable intervention at an early stage whenever possible. By choosing to define criminal activity, for the purposes of the Bill, as any type of activity that constitutes an offence, we have deliberately set the threshold at a low level. Taking this approach will enable the authorities to intervene before a pattern of offending can develop to the point where serious and long-lasting harm has been done to the child.

In certain other jurisdictions, a high bar is set before this type of child grooming law is engaged. Taking the example of the Australian legislation to which a number of Deputies referred, the crime committed by the child must be punishable by five years or more in prison. This means adults who groom children into crime cannot be prosecuted unless the crime carried out by the child is at the more serious end of the scale, which would exclude a lot of the lower level issues that surround, for example, drug-related crime. The new offences created through the Bill will not require that the child has ultimately carried out the crime or that he or she has been charged with or convicted of the crime. This will allow our authorities to concentrate their efforts on tackling the harm done to the child by grooming him or her into criminal activity rather than first having to prosecute the child.

The mandate the Bill will give to An Garda Síochána to intervene and take appropriate actions at a local level will mean the focus of its actions involving children will be more obviously on the reduction of harm and reducing the likelihood of offences being committed in the first instance. Gardaí locally will be able to strengthen their preventive interventions by spreading the message, both directly and through community leaders and organisations, that such behaviours are subject to the law and can be tackled if detected. Ultimately, preventing this cycle from taking hold, with these low-level, precursor criminal activities in the first instance, will contribute to the aim of preventing children from being drawn into crime.

Deputies raised several important points during the debates, some of which I will address in the time available. I look forward to discussing them in more detail on Committee Stage. The Bill will provide for a maximum sentence of up to five years in prison. Some Deputies noted the Australian legislation imposes a harsher penalty, of up to ten years in prison. It is important to be clear the grooming offences created in the Bill are distinct from any offence that may be committed by the child. Following consultation with the Office of the Attorney General with respect to proportionality, it was decided to set the maximum sentence at five years in prison. The grooming offences in the Bill will not remove liability from a person who grooms the child victim for any other offences that already exist in law. It is highly likely that where a person is prosecuted for this type of grooming, he or she will be also prosecuted under the existing law for the offence committed by the child. After the Bill has been enacted, it will be possible to prosecute the adult groomer for both the grooming and the criminal activity.

The issue of young adults over the age of 18 being liable to imprisonment for this offence where they are close in age to the child being groomed was also raised. It is well understood young adults can also be vulnerable to peer pressure and influence and may themselves be the victims of grooming. It has been suggested a minimum age gap between the adult and the grooming victim might be worth exploring, but there are other considerations. It is, unfortunately, the case that crimes are committed by young people. Whatever the approach taken to sentencing legislation, it must at least be possible to prosecute them when this happens. When cases such as this arise, it will be a matter for An Garda Síochána and the Director of Public Prosecutions, DPP, to decide how to proceed in each case. I acknowledge that in cases where the inciter is a family member, the consequences for the child could be severe and there could be challenges in prosecuting the adult. The courts have discretion, however, in both the fines and imprisonment options available. It will be a matter for the presiding judge to consider the circumstances of each case.

The Citizens' Assembly on Drugs Use was raised by several Deputies, which I welcome because it shows how the new Bill will fit into the development of policy in this area. The recommendations that emerge from the citizens' assembly will inform future policy and operational changes that can be made to reduce the harmful effects of drugs on individuals, families and communities. The citizens' assembly will consider the lived experiences of people impacted directly by drugs, as well as their families and communities. The Bill will have a direct impact in this context by helping remove children from the influence of those who use them to commit offences including drug-related crime. Currently, more than 100 youth diversion programmes throughout the State provide suitable activities to facilitate personal development, promote prosocial behaviour and improve long-term employability prospects for participants.

I recognise the points made by Deputies yesterday regarding children who are groomed into criminal activity by family members and the significant toll this can take on the child. The national prevalence report of the award-winning Greentown project highlights that in many cases, younger adults who are not blood relatives of the child, specifically young men who live in the same locality, have the most influence over children in grooming a child into criminal activity when the child is not related to the leaders of the criminal gang. It is of utmost importance that these circumstances are accounted for and captured in legislation.

In the course of yesterday’s debate, several Deputies raised a question relating to the age of those targeted by the legislation and expressed their views on the age of criminal responsibility. This is not a matter to be addressed in the legislation but as part of the review of the Children Act 2001, which is an objective under the Youth Justice Strategy 2021-2027. The immediate harm done to a child by involving him or her in a crime will be directly addressed by the provisions in the Bill before us. The Bill will also help ensure the prospects of vulnerable children will be brighter by reducing the likelihood they will be groomed into criminal activity by adults.

The enactment of the Criminal Justice (Engagement of Children in Criminal Activity) Bill 2023 will send a strong message to communities that grooming children into criminal activity is not acceptable and can be tackled. It will address the involvement of children not only in the sale and supply of drugs but also in any other form of criminality, while still protecting those children who are involved in crime from further harm by limiting the offence to adults. I again acknowledge the contributions by the Deputies in the course of the debates and the broad cross-party support expressed for the Bill. I will be pleased to address any aspects of the legislation Deputies may wish to raise in the subsequent discussions.

Question put and agreed to.