Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 11 Jul 2023

Vol. 1041 No. 6

Saincheisteanna Tráthúla - Topical Issue Debate

School Funding

Deputy Pauline Tully

The Government and the Minister for Education promised that primary and post-primary schools would have ongoing funding for ICT budgets until 2027, when there would then be a review. This budget, which is calculated on the type of school and the roll numbers, was to come from a €200 million package announced by the Government and to be provided to the schools in the period 2022 to 2027 as part of the national development plan, NDP. Without consultation, the ICT budget for schools seems to have disappeared and has not been allocated to schools for the 2022-23 school year.

The reply to a recent parliamentary question I submitted on this issue stated that it is hoped to issue the next tranche of funding in the 2023-24 school year no later than January 2024. The reply also stated that, as with all funding, the issuing of the grant was subject to the availability of Exchequer funding and the wider capital needs of the Department. There was no mention in the reply of what happened to the funding for 2022-23. There is also no definite commitment for subsequent years, as promised, up to 2027. It is dependent on Exchequer funding.

Several schools who had thought this budget would be ongoing have signed up to outsourced and ongoing technology support packages, which they must now find funding for from alternative avenues. The schools presumed this funding would be available each year for the five school years because this was what the initial announcement indicated. Schools planned their expenditure based on this assumption. As technology changes so frequently, many schools decided to lease the necessary equipment and entered into contracts for the duration of these leases for ongoing support and upgrades.

Since 2018, schools have been required to develop or update their digital strategies in line with the digital learning framework for schools and within the framework, it is stated that there is a whole-school approach and commitment to the effective or highly effective use of digital technologies in teaching and learning. The opening paragraph from the Minister for Education in respect of the digital strategy stated that it envisaged a future where every learner would have ample opportunity to benefit from technology in his or her learning and would develop key skills for the digital world. In 2023, the Department launched a new primary curriculum framework and within it, schools are expected to implement being a digital learner as one of a number of key competencies. The science, technology, engineering and mathematics, STEM, curriculum area also includes digital technology. I cannot see how any of the above will be possible without the promised ICT budget.

The circular on the digital strategy, Circular 0027/2022, refers to one of the features of the ICT grant scheme having been to have a five-year approach, based on €200 million being committed under the NDP over the period of the strategy. This approach was intended to facilitate multi-annual planning by schools. It also stated that the digital learning plan should be reviewed and updated at least annually and used to guide the expenditure of this grant funding to embed digital technologies in a phased and coherent approach to improve learning outcomes.

This issue has been raised by a number of other Deputies, including the Sinn Fein spokesperson on education, Deputy Clarke. In her response to one of those Deputies, the Minister indicated that the provision of digital technologies in schools, including leasing arrangements, was a matter for the boards of management. That was a disingenuous response. The boards of management of schools, and indeed the principals and staff, presumed that the funding promised under this digital strategy would be forthcoming for the next five years and that it would be allocated in each of those years. Will the Minister of State address the issue of funding for the year just completed, 2022-23? Will this money be made available retrospectively to cover the costs that schools have accrued already in the expectation that this grant would be paid?

Minister of State at the Department of Justice (Deputy James Browne)

Under the Digital Strategy for Schools 2015-2020, overall investment of €210 million issued to all recognised primary and post-primary schools in annual grant funding. This funding has supported schools to invest in appropriate digital infrastructure and to embed the use of digital technology in teaching, learning and assessment.

The new digital strategy for schools to 2027 was published last year and is underpinned by an investment of €200 million to support schools over the period committed to under the NDP. The first tranche of €50 million in grant funding issued to all recognised primary and post-primary schools in late 2021. In addition, as part of Ireland's national recovery and resilience plan, NRRP, under the Next Generation EU funding facility, the Department issued a grant of €50 million in December 2021 to recognised primary and post-primary schools in the free education scheme to support those learners at risk of educational disadvantage through the digital divide. This amounted to €100 million in total.

The digital strategy for schools was developed following an extensive consultation process with all relevant stakeholders and is focused on three pillars. It aims to ensure that the school system is prepared for and continues to progress the embedding of digital technologies in teaching, learning and assessment. It intends to embed further progress of the potential of digital technologies to transform the learning experiences of students. It also aims to help students to develop key digital skills to facilitate their participation in society and the economy as a transition to further and higher education and the world of work.

The timing of the issuing of the grant is subject to the wider capital needs of the school system. It is anticipated that the next tranche of funding will be in the 2023-24 school year. As underpinned by the digital strategy for schools to 2027, the Department remains fully committed to ICT in schools and has, to date, invested over €300 million directly into schools for ICT over the past six years. It is anticipated that the funding committed to under the NDP will be available to support the implementation of the digital strategy in schools in future years. As with funding under the previous strategy, the funding under the digital strategy for schools to 2027 is issued directly to schools as they are best placed to identify the requirements of their own student cohorts and to meet those requirements in the most appropriate way in accordance with their digital learning plans.

Deputy Pauline Tully

I thank the Minister of State, but what he told me does not answer the question about the 2022-23 school year and the fact that some schools have committed funding that they expected to get from this grant. The financial support services unit, FSSU, produced a grant schedule for the 2022-23 academic year and the ICT grant was listed as part of this. Schools expected this money to perhaps come through in December 2022, as it had in December 2021. The next thing that happened was that it was moved on the schedule and then it disappeared off the schedule completely. Schools have been left scratching their heads as to what has happened here.

Part of the digital strategy states that schools will need ongoing funding on a multi-annual basis and certainty as to the frequency of payments and the amounts involved to provide for infrastructure replacement and upgrade, investment in emerging technologies as appropriate and maintenance support. The digital strategy states that this funding should be multi-annual and that schools need certainty in this regard, including on the frequency and amount of the payment. This has not been given to them.

As I said, even in the response to my parliamentary question, it was stated that it was just hoped that the next tranche will be paid this year. That statement is not strong enough for the schools. They have been left wondering and scratching their heads as to how they are going to come up with the funding to cover the investment they have already made in ICT. As I said, some of them have engaged in contracts to lease the equipment, keep themselves updated with new emerging technologies and get upgrades and support. The fact that it is anticipated the funding committed to under the NDP will be available, or that it is hoped it will be, is not strong enough. Schools need reassurance that this money will be paid to them annually to cover the costs of technology. They are already down one year in this regard.

Deputy James Browne

As previously stated, I expect that the next tranche of funding under the digital strategy will issue in the coming school year, by January 2024. The ongoing commitment to embedding the use of digital technologies in teaching and learning is demonstrated through the continued investment in teacher professional learning, relevant resources and the schools' broadband programme, with policy articulated in the digital strategy for schools to 2027.

Our overall schools building programme is demand-driven and determined by our legal obligations to ensure provision for education. The Department continues to engage with the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform as part of the overall review of the NDP that will be undertaken later in 2023 for the period to 2028, with a view to ensuring a smooth as possible roll-out of NDP priorities, including digital strategy commitments in future.

ICT grant funding for schools is part of the capital budget of the Department and Government and, as such, is subject to the availability of Exchequer funding, as well as the wider capital needs of the school system. As highlighted, €50 million in grant funding issued to recognised primary and post-primary schools in late 2021 and an additional €50 million issued in December 2021 to recognised primary and post-primary schools in the free education system to support those learners at risk of educational disadvantage through the digital divide. This was substantial funding.

Health Services

Deputy Alan Dillon

I thank the Ceann Comhairle for selecting this important Topical Issue matter, which relates to children with the life-altering condition of scoliosis. This continues to be a very significant issue, despite promises made over a span of six years.

In 2017, the Department of Health made a commitment that children with scoliosis would not have to wait longer than four months for a crucial surgery that can transform their lives. However, it has now been many years since the initial promise was made in these Houses to reduce these agonising wait times.

In my constituency of Mayo, several children are still awaiting surgery well beyond the promised four-month period and I have spoken to many of these parents and children. One such case is a 13-year-old, Leah Heenan from Toormakeady, and I know that Leah and her family are tuned in to the Oireachtas tonight to listen to this debate. Leah has been waiting anxiously for the past three years for spinal fusion surgery that would give her the chance to reclaim her life. Leah was diagnosed with scoliosis at the age of ten and since then, she and her parents have made the arduous journey to Dublin on numerous times each year. Initially, she was given a body brace but she has outgrown that now. The paediatric consultant and orthopaedic surgeon in Dublin assured her that the surgery will take place once a bed was available. Unfortunately, to date no bed has been found and her surgeon has now stated that he is too busy, requiring her to be referred to another specialist.

This means that the family must endure the lengthy process of pre-operative checks once again, which is both time-consuming and physically draining, considering the distance between Mayo and Dublin.

Meanwhile, Leah is on the verge of transitioning from primary school to secondary school, moving from her village to a nearby town for her education. Her parents had hoped that her surgery would be complete before this transition but the chances of that happening now seem slim. Indeed, the family themselves are calling the hospital on a daily basis, desperately seeking answers on this important matter.

Unfortunately, most of the time, their calls go unanswered due to the immense pressures faced by these medical professionals and their staff. The HSE has informed Leah's family that it is unable to provide a scheduled date or timeframe for her surgery and they have been advised that if her medical condition worsens while waiting, they should inform her consultant.

However, Leah cannot even secure an appointment to be fitted with a more suitable body brace as her spinal deformity continues to deteriorate.

Just a month ago, a scathing and devastating report from the Ombudsman for Children highlighted the case of a 17-year-old, Ivy, who endured five-year wait for similar surgery. The report recommended that Children's Health Ireland, CHI, conduct an audit of waiting lists for children with scoliosis care and implement reform such as allowing patient care and reviews to be initiated by parents, their families, GPs and others involved in their care. We must now learn from Ivy's story to ensure that children like Leah in Tooramakeady receive the help they desperately need.

The Minister of State has probably received a response from the Department of Health and I thank him for being here in the Chamber tonight. Can he provide some clarity about when children like Leah will no longer have to endure waiting periods exceeding three years for this life-changing surgery? It is crucial that we take immediate action to address the pressing issues and alleviate the suffering of these vulnerable children.

Deputy James Browne

I thank the Deputy for raising this very important matter around the ongoing delays in scoliosis surgeries. I welcome the opportunity to address the House on this extremely important issue. The Government sincerely regrets that children like Leah can experience long waiting times for scoliosis treatment and it remains conscious of the burden that this places on them and their families.

Last year the Minister, Deputy Stephen Donnelly, approved an ambitious plan from Children’s Health Ireland to reduce the number of children waiting for spinal orthopaedic procedures, whether scoliosis or spina bifida, by the year end, with significant current and capital funding committed to implement the plan. This funding is providing additional theatre access at Temple Street and Crumlin, diagnostic MRI capacity, and enabling further activity and paediatric theatre lists at Cappagh hospital, also known as Cappagh Kids.

The additional activity is targeted at reducing the number of children waiting long periods for orthopaedic procedures, including scoliosis and spina bifida. We did make progress. In 2022, 47% more scoliosis procedures were carried out than in 2021. If we compare to pre-pandemic levels, this represents a 34% increase.

Despite undertaking a record number of spinal procedures in 2022, corresponding reductions in the waiting list were offset by significant increases in demand and referrals compared to previous years, with a 30% increase in additions to the spinal surgery list compared with 2021. Whilst the growth in referrals is stabilising in 2023, this latent Covid-19 demand has resulted in increased outpatient activity.

The HSE and CHI have developed a plan for 2023 to continue and build on the work done in 2022. Additional funding supported the recruitment of additional staff to enable the expansion of paediatric orthopaedic services. The posts related to the multidisciplinary team: at diagnosis, pre-assessment, during surgery in-theatre, and post operatively. The posts included a number of grades and specialties, including registrars, consultants, radiographers, clinical nurse managers, staff nurses, physiotherapists, occupational therapists, and associated administrative posts. Recruitment and retention of staff remain priorities to ensure reductions in waiting lists for scoliosis treatment.

In 2023 to the end of June, CHI and the National Orthopaedic Hospital Cappagh have completed 219 spinal procedures. The figure includes 101 spinal fusion surgeries, as well as 118 other spinal procedures, and represents 89% of the projected activity to the end of June, and 46% of the targeted activity for the full year 2023. To the end of June, Cappagh has completed 311 non-complex orthopaedic surgeries and 13 surgeries for spina bifida patients transferred from CHI. These figures respectively represent 52% and 33% of targeted activity for the full year 2023.

All patients with a diagnosis of scoliosis require a pre-operative work-up prior to spinal surgery, including multiple diagnostic investigations and review by a multidisciplinary team. The plan of care which is implemented for each patient is tailored to best meet the patient’s clinical requirements. The complexity of a child’s total medical condition dictates the level of planning and pre-operative work and time needed.

This Government is committed to building on progress achieved to date to reduce waiting times for children like Leah awaiting scoliosis treatment.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire Stáit. I understand and appreciate his detailed response. However, the reality remains that despite the additional funding allocation last year, children and patients who require scoliosis or other spinal interventions are still enduring wait times exceeding four months and in some cases they have been waiting three or four years. This situation is utterly unacceptable and tonight we need to get that message back to the Minister, Deputy Donnelly.

The heartbreak, in truth, is that these young children and teenagers, despite the promises, continue to suffer in pain. As a father, one would not wish that on any other parents' children. Many wake up in the middle of the night and experience excruciating discomfort, while being unable to engage in activities which other children of their ages can enjoy.

It is very important that the funding, recruitment and that the specialists are put in place. Leah and countless others in Mayo and across the country are in desperate need of this surgery. Their lives are, effectively, put on hold as they anxiously wait for an operation that has the potential to transform their lives. The urgency of their situation cannot be overstated. I reiterate it is vital that we address this issue promptly to ensure the children and patients receive the necessary treatment without any further delays, that both their well-being and quality of life are at the centre of this matter and that we prioritise their urgent medical needs in the weeks and months ahead.

Deputy James Browne

I again thank the Deputy for raising the ongoing issues with regard to delays in scoliosis surgeries and, in particular, for his mentioning of the very difficult situation which Leah is experiencing. As has been acknowledged, many patients, including children, who are waiting for scoliosis treatment are waiting for an unacceptably long time. While significant work continues to positively impact on waiting times and in improved pathways to elective care, acute hospitals are still impacted by pent-up demand that arose as a result of the pandemic.

On 7 March the Minister, Deputy Donnelly, published the 2023 Waiting List Action Plan, which is the next stage of a new multi-annual approach to sustainably reduce and reform hospital waiting lists and build on the foundational work done through the short-term waiting list action plan between September and December 2021. This was followed by the first full year of the waiting list action plan for 2022, both having reversed the annual trend of rising waiting lists. The Government continues to invest funding to reduce the amount of time people are waiting for important hospital appointments and procedures.

In 2022, €350 million was allocated to the HSE and the NTPF to provide additional public and private activity to further stabilise and reduce scheduled care waiting and times in tandem with bringing forward much-needed longer term reforms. For 2023, this investment has increased to €363 million. Scoliosis and spina bifida are included as one of the priority areas for this funding. Through investment and reform, the Government is working to sustainably reduce and reform hospital waiting lists and waiting times that will deliver improved access to care for patients throughout the State.

Food Industry

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

Many farmers are seriously concerned that meat, which is being exported from Ireland and stamped with the Irish logo and brand, is not actually Irish meat at all. I will give some of the statistics on it. Each year, approximately 56,000 tonnes of sheepmeat is exported from this country. Since 2018, €1.8 billion worth of sheepmeat has been exported. All of that is categorised as being of Irish origin. Since 2018, nearly 9,000 head of live sheep have been exported to countries such as France, Belgium, Germany, Italy, Portugal, the Netherlands, Spain, Romania, Switzerland, Bulgaria and Austria. Ireland also imports an average of 450,000 live sheep each year. If the average weight of a sheep is 21 kg, an average of 9,300 tonnes is being imported. There is serious concern in the sheep sector over these imports. These imports are generally coming from the same countries that we are exporting to. Therefore, we are exporting sheep to these countries and we are importing sheep from these countries. The argument has been made that it would be impossible for Ireland to consume 9,300 tonnes of sheepmeat at the moment. It is obvious to everyone that they are not being imported for breeding purposes and that these 450,000 sheep are actually being imported potentially to be slaughtered and to be sold as Irish sheepmeat.

Is the meat being binned, is it being exported or is it being consumed here in its entirety? It is important for the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Marine to show up for agricultural questions. The response to the parliamentary question that I received from him stated that the 56 tonnes of sheepmeat being exported is of all Irish origin. Can the Minister of State confirm with hand on heart and say with absolute confidence that we have an airtight situation in this country and, in terms of the export of meat and its origin, that we have a system where farmers are not actually competing with other countries selling their meat as Irish meat? Can he also confirm that people internationally and even here in Ireland are not being sold a pup and that there is not false advertisement and false marketing in this regard? If there is, that is a very serious issue. If there is, that means the livelihoods of farmers are being significantly affected and the prices are potentially being pushed down by this.

Can the Minister of State honestly say that all sheepmeat displayed currently with a 100% Irish sticker in supermarkets in this country represents sheep that have been born, grazed, reared and slaughtered here?

Deputy James Browne

The Deputy's Topical Issue asked the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Marine the amount, in tonnes, of sheepmeat being imported into and exported from the State each year. That is the question I will answer.

The Minister, Deputy McConalogue, thanks the Deputy for raising this important issue, that being the amount, in tonnes, of sheepmeat being imported and exported. We all recognise the challenging market conditions our sheep farmers have faced this year compared with recent years and the Minister has spoken previously about the significant contribution sheep farming makes to rural Ireland.

Beef and sheep farming account for most farm enterprises and they are at the heart of social and economic sustainability in rural areas where other economic activity can often be limited. They are also the systems most reliant on direct payments and where economic viability is very often challenging.

Food Vision 2030 is our shared strategy for the sustainable development of the agrifood sector until the end of the decade. Farmers are central to that strategy. The economic viability of our sheep farmers is crucial, not just in terms of their ability to earn a decent livelihood and return on their endeavours, but also in helping to deliver on environmental and social sustainability. The food vision strategy commits us to promote Irish grass-fed beef and lamb as premium products nationally and internationally. The Minister will continue to support Bord Bia’s marketing and promotional activities in both domestic and international markets.

The Minister has also established the Food Vision 2030 beef and sheep group, which plays a critical role in plotting a future for the sector. Chaired by Professor Thia Hennessy, the group has met twice this year to hear the contributions of stakeholders and agree the way forward in implementing the food vision actions collaboratively in light of the overall climate action targets for the sector.

Ireland exported sheepmeat to more than 30 markets last year, which is a mark of the world-class product produced on our farms. Sheep production is a vital source of income for many farmers and provides the raw material for the export of more than 66,000 tonnes of raw sheepmeat meat worth €453 million last year. Imports during the same period amounted to 9,000 tonnes and were worth €59 million. Approximately 15% of the lamb produced in Ireland is consumed domestically, with the balance being exported. Bord Bia is intensifying its marketing and promotion of Irish lamb this year through its activities in domestic and export markets. For example, an additional lamb campaign in the domestic market focused in particular on attracting younger consumers to eating lamb. Television advertising campaigns from September to October will coincide with peak supply months. However, we must continue to look at the global picture, with sheep export markets remaining critical.

Over the past decade, the Department has agreed bilateral sheep meat export certificates for many international markets, most recently with Japan in 2019 and the USA in 2022.

The Irish sheep sector is critically dependent on international trade and, therefore, on a multilateral trading system operating under EU and international trading rules. Any meat imported from third countries, including Great Britain, is subject to certification requirements and the import control system operated by the Department of Agriculture, Food and Marine at border control posts. The traceability standards of Irish sheepmeat are strictly enforced through our regulatory system.

If we want to maintain sheep farming as a system, we need continued targeting of farm income supports while increasing the return from the marketplace. The Minister recognises that margins in sheep farming have been under pressure as a result of increased input costs as well as lower prices, which are below the record levels achieved in recent years.

It should also be acknowledged that the Department provides significant support to the sector in the form of a dedicated sheep improvement scheme under the new CAP strategic plan, CSP, and through a broad range of other CSP schemes in which sheep farmers can participate. These include the agri-climate rural environment and organic farming schemes, which are particularly suited to sheep enterprises or mixed beef and sheep enterprises and which are likely to provide higher direct payments to sheep farmers this year. The Minister also encourages sheep farmers to consider forming producer organisations, the set-up costs for which are also supported by the Department under the CSP.

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

There is little points for Deputies to wait here until 10.15 p.m. to listen to scripted response from a Minister of State on a question. The purpose of these oral discussions is that points will be raised during the discussion to which the relevant Minister can then respond. In this case, I might as well have just stuck in a written question to the Minister because all I am getting back is a written response. It is important that Ministers who have the authority, who have background and who are from the Departments should appear here to answer questions, otherwise there is no point in actually being here at all. This is a very serious issue that is affecting many farmers. It is not the fault of the Minister of State in front of me that this is the case. I do not put the blame on him for this, but it is a system problem.

I note that in his response the Minister of State refused to confirm that all sheepmeat that is stickered as being Irish meat is actually Irish, which is significant. Some of these live imports are obviously coming from the North of Ireland, which is fine.

We know 26,000 sheep last year came from elsewhere and were imported into Ireland. It is likely sheep are being imported into the North from elsewhere and being sold in the South and, therefore, also being stickered as Irish sheep meat.

I tabled this Topical Issue because the parliamentary questions I have tabled to the Minister on this have not been answered. I have asked over and over about the accuracy of information recorded on exports of live animals or animal products on TRACES. I wanted to know the number of TRACES declarations for exports from Ireland to other EU and intra-EU countries for live exports and animal products, the number of individual verification checks completed, the number of con-conformances found and the nature of these non-conformances. These are important questions that are not being responded to by oral question or by Topical Issues at 10.15 p.m.

Deputy James Browne

I remind the Deputy the question put down on the paper by himself is simply the amount in tonnes of sheep meat being imported and exported from the State each year. Had he mentioned traceability in his question, he probably would have got a more specific answer.

We are answering the question he asked. The Minister in his reply is quite assured that any meat import from third countries, including Great Britain, is subject to certification requirements and the import control system operated by his Department at border control posts. Traceability standards of Irish meat are strictly enforced through our regulatory system. The Minister is committed to ensuring our sheep sector is protected for current and future generations. The Irish sheep sector is critically dependent on international trade and Ireland cannot unilaterally depart from the rules governing international trade. If it did, the impact of reciprocal action from our trading partners could be severe for our export-dependent agricultural sector. Irish sheep meat has been successful in accessing developing new market opportunities locally and internationally. An Bord Bia will continue to promote sheep meat markets and target segments based on trade customer and consumer and market insights.

Pension Provisions

Deputy James O'Connor

I thank the Minister of State for being present. It is great to have this question selected before the summer recess.

I had a fascinating meeting in my constituency office, of which this Topical Issue is the brainchild. I met with a retired public health worker who had worked as a midwife. Without going into too many specifics, it was one of the most interesting exchanges I have had since election to this House. They explained how they worked a lifetime in the health service, reached the age of 60 and retired. They worked, paid tax and made their contribution to their workplace. Anyone who works in a healthcare setting around maternity healthcare knows it is an extraordinarily privileged role but a challenging one. They see many joyous occasion in people’s lives and, from time to time, unfortunately, great tragedy.

I was struck by what they told me about the process around the supplementary pension, which is available to retirees to make up the shortfall in pension during the period between the date of retirement and eligibility for the State contributory pension. For retired healthcare workers, this system is key, as it is for any civil servant. I had not really realised that, when it comes to eligibility, there is a requirement for them to sign on the live register, whether it is down the route of the jobseeker's allowance or other payments. It unfortunately requires regular clocking in and being on the live register, which is demeaning for somebody who has worked all their lives and is at what is supposed to be at the end of their career. Midwifery is an incredibly challenging job involving unusual hours and massive stress and retiring at 60 is not to be necessarily frowned upon where people are eligible for it.

I wholeheartedly stand with the lady who came to the office in her mission to see how this could be changed. If somebody has worked all their lives, it is hard for them to have to collect social welfare until they come to the retirement age and to have to go in. The jobseeker's allowance is not necessarily appropriate. It is nothing disparaging against people on jobseeker's allowance. It is traumatic for anybody to lose their job but people’s mindset is often, for good reason, such that they do not take pleasure in having to queue up and sign forms for the simple thing of retiring. That to me is unacceptable. It is something we should look at as a State, recognise and try to solve.

I understand the difficulty when it comes to changing these systems. I found it fascinating during the pandemic when it came to adjusting the pandemic unemployment payment, employment wage subsidy scheme and other schemes. I was never aware of the extraordinary costs involved in changing the system. The Minister, Deputy Humphreys, was very informative and helpful. I pay tribute to her, as I always try to do. This one is different because it is a long-lasting issue that, in time, people will come to benefit from. I would like to see what the response is from the Department. I thank the Minister of State for stepping in for the Minister and providing the answer to the House. This individual had a fabulous case. It is something I admit I was not au fait with. I am only 26. It will be interesting to see the Department's response.

Deputy James Browne

The Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform, Deputy Donohoe, has overall policy responsibility for public service occupational pension schemes payable to retired public servants.

For all new entrants to the public service on or after 6 April 1995, the date of introduction of full social insurance for public servants who now pay class A PRSI, and before 1 January 2013, the date of introduction of the single public service pensions scheme, their pension is integrated. An integrated pension scheme looks at the State pension as part of the total pension package promised to employees on retirement. One reason for this is that both employers and employees make PRSI contributions and these entitle scheme members to social insurance benefits, including the State pension contributory, SPC.

Integration is used as a means of taking into account the benefits payable under the social welfare system to calculate: the amount of pension payable from a pension scheme, so that the combined pension from both sources - State pension and occupational pension - is at the level aimed at in the scheme's design; and the level of contributions payable by the employee towards the cost of their occupational pension, so that the contributions payable to an occupational pension scheme reflect the offset from scheme benefits to allow for the State pension. Typically this is achieved by calculating pension benefits based on this lower pensionable salary at retirement and, therefore, the pension payment of a post-95 public servant comprises three components: a reduced public service occupational pension payable by the public service employer; social insurance benefits, payable, subject to eligibility, by the Department of Social Protection; and, where the full rate of SPC is not payable, a supplementary pension equivalent to a non-integrated pension, which is payable, subject to eligibility, by the public service employer.

Where a public servant does not qualify for the SPC or qualifies for a social insurance benefit at less than the value of the SPC, they may be entitled to an occupational supplementary pension, subject to eligibility criteria. In addition, the granting of an occupational supplementary pension depends upon a number conditions, as follows: one, the retired public servant is not in paid employment; two, the retired public servant, due to no fault of their own, fails to qualify for social insurance benefits or qualifies for a benefit at less that the value of the SPC; and, three, the retired public servant must have reached minimum pension age or retired on grounds of ill-health.

The second condition is important to ensure no duplication of payments from public funds. To verify this condition, prior to payment of the occupational supplementary pension, a retired public servant must engage with the Department of Social Protection and obtain proof that they have exhausted any relevant benefits for which they may be eligible under the social insurance system.

A significant number of occupational pension schemes, both private and public sector, make an allowance for the State pension when providing a pension from their pension scheme.

Deputy James O'Connor

I appreciate the Minister of State's response but it does not really answer my question. I acknowledge that it is not his Department or role and that the response is from the Minister, Deputy Donohoe. I have here the forms for the supplementary pension allowance application. They include a statement from the applicant indicating that he or she understands it will be necessary to provide documentary evidence for the continued payment of the supplementary pension each year until the contributory State pension becomes payable. That is just wrong. It does not fit and it is not right. We need to acknowledge that if someone has given his or her career to working in the health service or in different roles in the Civil Service, that condition is a little unreasonable.

It comes down to personal dignity. Many of those who have been so fortunate to have remained in employment throughout their career, and I recognise that not everybody is so lucky, take great pride in that. People who have spent their careers in the health service do not want to have to queue in a social welfare office to provide documentary evidence that they are no longer in employment.

There are other parts of the form with which I fundamentally disagree. This was only properly brought to my attention recently. As a young man in education, I did not know this was in place but I would like to see it being changed. I recognise that to change systems in Revenue or the Department of Social Protection is complex and they are not always as easy to fix as people may think but changing this would mean a lot to many people who have retired. They are still alive and kicking and have only entered into their retirement in their 60s and 70s. I would love to see the system being changed. I hope the Minister of State will be so kind as to bring that message to the Ministers for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform and Social Protection.

Deputy James Browne

The Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform is aware there are some issues concerning the procedures for qualifying for the payment of an occupational supplementary pension. However, reducing the administrative burden is likely to include a technological solution that will require some time to agree and implement. The Department will commence a consultative process with stakeholders to establish if there is a way in which we can streamline the process involved in accessing the pension and dealing with some of those related issues.

Cuireadh an Dáil ar athló ar 10.32 p.m. go dtí 9.12 a.m., Dé Céadaoin, an 12 Iúil 2023.

The Dáil adjourned at 10.32 p.m. until 9.12 a.m. on Wednesday, 12 July 2023.