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JOINT ADMINISTRATION COMMITTEE debate -
Wednesday, 2 Jun 2010

Broadcasting of Oireachtas Proceedings: Discussion

Apologies have been received from Senator O'Toole and Deputy Ó Fearghaíl.

The first item on the agenda is a presentation by Mr. David Harvey of City Channel on increasing the level of coverage of Oireachtas proceedings. I also welcome the assistant clerk to the committee, Ms Marie Slevin, who is helping us. We have a new clerk to the committee, Ms Yvonne Rowland, and are grateful to Mr. Pat Haran who is moving on to greener pastures.

By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they are to give the committee. If they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence in relation to a particular matter and continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person or persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I call Mr. Harvey to make his presentation.

Mr. David Harvey

I thank the Chairman. I also thank the committee for seeing me again so quickly. As members may recall, I was before it three or four weeks ago when it was good enough to hear my views on a range of issues, not least of which was the expansion of the transmission of Oireachtas proceedings. In the meantime I have had the opportunity to meet the Oireachtas broadcasting unit. I have also had the opportunity to discuss the matter with staff in the Oireachtas communications unit. I have taken their views and advice and now revert to members of the committee with something specific, which is what I believe they want to hear rather than more generalisations. The document before the members lacks two elements for a specific reason. One element is a short budget synopsis. The reason I did not wish to present that in public - I will offer it to the Chairman for distribution in private session - is that elements of the media have already picked up on this and I did not want it to become an unfortunate headline, if presented the wrong way. Also, there are some transmission details on the specifics of the number of houses in various areas of the country which is confidential to the network. It considers that to be commercially confidential. However, I would be very happy to make that available on a confidential basis to members of the committee, if required.

I was asked to revert with - to cite the phrase used at the time - "a loose proposal" for how one could immediately put the deliberations of the Oireachtas, namely, the committees, the Dáil and the Seanad on to mainstream television with ease and without undue cost. The committee said "if you think you can do it, show us how you can do it", so I have done exactly that. What I propose is not to set up a television channel but to set up a feasibility study to examine this on a control basis over a three-month period, commencing towards the back end of this year. This would be a pilot study to allow the Oireachtas to test the concept of a television channel for those broadcasts. In the executive summary I have more or less synopsised what I am talking about. It would give the committee the opportunity to test the concept - to deal with a channel that covered exclusively parliamentary matters in this environment through what is an already established distribution platform. It could then assess the cost of producing such a channel in this environment without the need, in the first instance, to commit large sums of money, buy equipment or commit to a large capital purchase. It could then develop its view on the balance, by which I mean the political balance, the integrity of the transmissions and additional editorial input such as prerecorded programmes, specifically, highlight programmes, review programmes and programmes about the Parliament.

I picked up two interesting leaflets entitled "A Day in the Life of the TD" and "Know Your Parliament" on leaving the Houses on the last occasion, which effectively would write the script for two programmes. They would make interesting complementary programming for the Oireachtas's output. The committee would be in a position to survey the potential audience base on its views on parliamentary broadcasting, having offered it what would be a substantial sample of what could be produced and transmitted in the future. That, essentially, is my approach.

The study I propose would use the UPC platform, as I described previously, as a distribution mechanism and our capabilities as an existing channel provider to undertake the management of the Oireachtas's output. The proposal is for 12 weeks, covering the sittings from October to December of this year. It would give members an opportunity to have substantial input into the styling content of a channel and to ensure that it had a balanced and editorially robust view of the activities of the House.

I have numbered the rest of the document from 1 to 11 covering the specifics and I have numbered each of the paragraphs. If the Chairman wishes, I can go through the document, it would not take long.

Mr. David Harvey

I numbered the specifics because if there are items on which members wish to quiz me, I can easily refer to them.

I take it we are now dealing with page 2?

Mr. David Harvey

Yes, page 2 deals with the background. The committee knows about the Oireachtas broadcasting unit and its raison d’être. If I were to examine it in a broad sense, I would say that the real value of it is to bring what the Oireachtas does to a wider public, to the tax-paying public. The Oireachtas already produces huge amounts of high quality material. It also provides facilities and raw material which could be edited. The main outlet for this material is the Internet on which all the material produced is generally available. As members will be aware, limited material is available on broadcast television. “Oireachtas Report” was broadcast at midnight last night, if anyone stayed up to watch it. It is hard for people to stay up to watch it at that time. The Oireachtas also has live transmissions on TG4. The Oireachtas has allowed itself, through the Act, the establishment of a channel, which has not yet been set up. There is also discussion about the inclusion of what the Oireachtas does on DDT, which will not happen in the short term. In that context, we propose to the committee that the members undertake their own study and put themselves on television in an easy and meaningful way. I have also noted who is presenting this submission afternoon.

On page 2, we, effectively, say that we believe the Oireachtas has this obligation. The members have already said that to me at previous meetings and that as wide an audience as possible should have access to all of the Oireachtas transmissions. We propose a pilot project and feasibility study to transmit the Oireachtas output on digital cable and MMDS distributed television for a limited period of 12 weeks, the content to be all deliberations of the Oireachtas live, including the Dáil, the Seanad and committee meetings and also featuring edited highlights of certain aspects of the output, the full content and a scheduled plan to be agreed with the members. In other words they would make the call on this. In addition, we suggest the channel would broadcast suitable complementary material, for example, programmes produced in co-operation with the European Commission or local councils, if members considered that was appropriate, or programming which highlights or comments on politics in particular or in general. Consideration should be given to inclusion of television material that promotes or explains the Oireachtas process, hence what I referred to in the documentation. The channel would operate to a defined schedule, inputting live events as they happen and producing, editing and broadcasting recorded and highlighting material on a regular basis. This company would take responsibility for all aspects of the channel's transmission operations and would consult the joint committee on content and editorial matters.

In terms of the footprint, the channel - for which we do not have a name, it could be called the "Oireachtas Channel" or any other name, which is something for discussion - would be carried on the existing UPC digital cable and MMDS transmission network, which includes 400,000 homes in the following centres, Dublin Cork, Galway, Limerick and Waterford, with a high concentration in urban areas and additional coverage in smaller urban and rural populations in areas of which I have given a sample, namely, Tralee, Clonmel, Killarney, Listowel, Athlone, Kilkenny, Maynooth, Naas and Swords. While it would be desirable to offer universal coverage at the outset, the transmissions to attain that, namely, on Sky, would require substantial and additional expense, which we believe would be unnecessary for the pilot project. However, the pilot project would give the Oireachtas a huge sample and afford it an opportunity to assess the popularity and public acceptance of transmissions. Then, the members could make recommendations for the expansion of transmission footprints, if appropriate, at a later stage.

We estimate the total number of homes served during the pilot project would be 400,000. This would imply a potential daily reach of more than 1.08 million. We do not suggest 1.08 million people would watch the channel but that is its reach and potential. We can make full details of the geographical areas and the number of homes served available on a confidential basis. That information is confidential to the network provider.

Moving to page 4, I am not sure that members need to go into the technical aspects; we have set out how we would do this and there is a transmission flow diagram on the last page.

What about scheduling?

Mr. David Harvey

Scheduling would be planned on a monthly basis in consultation. In terms of the scheduling of the live feeds, one of the issues covered, as set out on page 6, is the determination of protocols. In other words, would a committee outrank the Dáil or vice versa and what would members agree would be the priority? The committee would need to agree a protocol on that. In other words, if a meeting of this committee were being held and the Dáil were voting on a measure, the committee would need to decide which would get priority, or if one of them would be recorded for transmission later. Those are the matters that would have to be drilled down in detail.

In addition to live feeds, the schedule plan would allow for the inclusion of recorded programming, the frequency and content of which would be agreed with this joint committee. In terms of content, the primary feed is the live deliberations of the Dáil, the Seanad and the committees. These feeds are available and we understand they are free of charge. We would put those transmissions directly into the scheduling system and make use of existing graphics. The Oireachtas Broadcasting Unit can switch from one output signal to another. The mixed output of the Chamber would be fed to the live feeds. We would not get access to individual cameras here; we would just get the mixed output from each Chamber. That can be done and, I imagine, agreed.

I will move on to No. 6.3, which covers package programming to highlight programmes and review programmes where programming is conflicted. Where the Dáil and Seanad business are happening concurrently, we would take out a segment and rebroadcast it at a later stage.

Central to the coverage are what I guess people would consider the highlights, the Order of Business, Leaders' Questions and significant debates, votes, and special events such as the budget. We propose a weekly review highlights programme and shorter nightly highlights programme when the Dáil or Seanad are sitting and, potentially, a studio-based discussion programme to be transmitted on a weekly basis. This would be supplemented with relevant complementary and documentary programming, graphics, and programme slides, programme signposts, which are coming up later, and recorded or graphic continuity elements with live voice-over where appropriate, for example, "We are now going to the Dáil Chamber" or "We now break to go to the committee".

In No. 7, we propose that this would run for a 12 week feasibility period, commencing with the first sitting of the Houses in autumn 2010. The pilot is to be reviewed after a three month period and a report on its effectiveness prepared for the committee. A special purpose limited company for transparency would show the committee exactly where the money goes and how it is spent. We suggest a separate corporate vehicle. We have given some background at No. 9 to what we do, who owns us and so forth. No. 10 points out that the channel will require a broadcasting licence from the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland but that is something of a formality. I hope the authority does not mind me saying that but if one makes the correct application, there is no reason for it not to be. In terms of a time line, if one wished to get this ready for the autumn, one would need to be engaged by the end of July 2010 to allow sufficient time for the project.

The transmission flow is itemised on the back page and I can give the budget to the Chairman under a separate cover, in case this submission document will be made publicly available.

I understand the presentation but I wish to refer to one point in particular. As Mr. Harvey correctly acknowledged several things take place in the House at a given point in time. He will see that the monitors show the Dáil, Seanad and a number of committees are sitting. He said he would not have access to the individual cameras but would get the mix. However, from the point of view of managing the flow of what is being broadcast, does that editorial control reside with the Oireachtas broadcasting unit, OBU, or with City Channel? Mr. Harvey mentioned that the channel would supply voice-over. To keep it meaningful and going to the relevant sections, where is that controlled?

Mr. David Harvey

I discussed this internally with communications people here who said that less is often more. I am open to any advice, direction or consultation. One could say that on a Wednesday or Tuesday it is at 10.30 a.m. to 12.30 p.m., followed by 2.30 p.m. to 5.30 p.m., followed by 7.30 p.m. to 9.30 p.m., whichever it might be, and that one does not just continuously have wall-to-wall empty Chamber and that one creates a meaningful flow. The meaningful flow really comes down to the scheduling of the Houses' activities. I am not saying one should turn the Dáil or Seanad on its head to facilitate television, as the soccer players do, but there would probably need to be a strong overview of what is happening and when. However, that is not terribly difficult to achieve. One can glance at the schedule for a week fairly far in advance and know what will happen in the Dáil, Seanad and committees.

From the point of view of the 12 week pilot, does Mr. Harvey suggest that City Channel would manage the edit, in other words, go from committee to committee with the voice-over to explain? Is that how he envisages it?

Mr. David Harvey

We will operate as channel managers. That is really an editorial decision. It is a protocol that needs to be established in consultation with the management and communications people of the Dáil, the committee and other advisers. One needs strict protocols on that. I certainly would not wish to carry the can for cutting the Taoiseach off in mid-flow because it came up in the running order. Those are the things that can be easily established and developed. It is not a huge difficulty, provided somebody does not wish to go on some type of solo run.

I would be prepared to ask the Committee on Procedure and Privileges in the Seanad to try to make it possible to schedule the Seanad Order of Business so that it would not clash with the Order of Business in the Dáil. We could make it part of our reform. As Mr. Harvey has said, it would be on a pilot basis. We should seriously examine this, Chairman. What Mr. Harvey has proposed makes much sense. This committee is in the business of letting the people know about the hard work taking place in both Houses. Letting them know it at midnight is not meeting the spirit of trying to grow our constituency of viewers. If we get prime time on a channel, it is certainly a huge step forward in the affairs of the Houses and the committees. I would support the pilot project as it has been presented, but I would have to bring it before the Committee on Procedure and Privileges in the Seanad where we could discuss it and decide what should take place.

I thank Mr. Harvey for the presentation, which was very interesting. Obviously, there are costs involved. Does Mr. Harvey propose that the costs would be borne by the Oireachtas initially for the pilot project or by City Channel or some other group? At No. 6.6, Mr. Harvey says the output would be supplemented with relevant complementary or documentary programming. Does he envisage using subtitles, as occurs on BBC Parliament, to inform the viewer of what is happening given that if somebody tunes in during the middle of a programme, it would be difficult to figure out what is happening and what is being debated? I understand that subtitling is an extremely high cost.

Mr. David Harvey

Is the Deputy referring to subtitling for the hard of hearing?

No, subtitling to explain to viewers what is happening.

Mr. David Harvey

Such as the name of the Bill being debated?

Mr. David Harvey

The material we would receive would come to us fully formed. In other words, the output the Deputy sees now on the screen would be almost identical.

If one compares that with BBC Parliament there is much less in it. BBC Parliament is far more descriptive. It outlines who is speaking, where he or she is from, what is being said and various other things. What detail does Mr. Harvey envisage using as a pilot? Is it just what we currently use or more?

Mr. David Harvey

To be honest, I have not studied the detail of BBC Parliament and I had not considered that. It is certainly worth considering, although it adds another layer of labour to it. I am anxious not to tamper with the output as it is already of a very high standard. The ultimate problem is that it has not really gone anywhere.

A couple of us met the people in BBC Parliament. They said that the output as it stands does not mean a great deal to anybody. It just states "the Adoption Bill" and nothing else. If there is a far more descriptive band running along the bottom of the screen, it will mean more to people. I accept that people can introduce the output but I am talking about somebody who tunes in during the middle of the programme, when the introduction is over. They will not know what is happening.

Mr. David Harvey

There are two ways that could be approached. It could be done by lowering the sound and having a live explanatory voice-over from time to time, and there are plenty of very qualified people who could be trusted to have the independence and integrity to comment on proceedings an ongoing basis. One could also fiddle with the graphics.

The reason I raise it is that, according to the BBC people, it was one of the most expensive things to do. Will there be a cost to customers in the short term or the long term?

Mr. David Harvey

Who are the customers?

Mr. David Harvey

No.

It is not a "subscribe to view" situation.

Mr. David Harvey

No.

The big thing is the editorial decisions that are taken. The BBC has a separate company looking after the transmission side and the parliament side. Politicians are all slightly paranoid and it must be seen to be fair with regard to who controls the editorial, transmission and so forth.

Mr. David Harvey

I will comment briefly on the editorial. It is important to note that I made it very clear in the submission. No. 6.2 states that as camera shot selection is done on a Chamber by Chamber basis with its own production crew during live recordings, it is the mixed output of the Chamber that will be fed down the live feed. As far as we are concerned, this project company or whatever has no control over the internal editorial. It is taking the end result and putting it to television. How much one might have of the Dáil or Seanad and so forth is for the Houses to decide. We are just implementing that protocol. That is why I said protocols need to be very straight. For example, there is half an hour of a committee, two hours of the Dáil and an hour of the Seanad. The Houses decide that and the fully mixed feed comes here fully formed. It is done here anyway. The only access we would have is to the fully mixed feed so there is no question of interfering with the editorial in that respect. It is just implementing the protocols.

I was with Mr. Harvey when we visited the BBC. It was very professional. On the voiceover and editorial input unfortunately, as Mr. Harvey said, there would be huge costs. It may be possible to refine that; we might want to study it. Mr. Harvey said he was going to take it as the model and he is probably correct. There would have to be a certain amount of editing because some of the material could be very boring to the viewer, to say the least. If one does not have the interjection of the professional giving an account of what is happening and so on, it would be very dull. The BBC was improving its practice. It is something in which the Chairman has an interest and we may pursue it further down the line. In the climate we are in, everything we do on the side is now about costs.

Mr. David Harvey

Absolutely. That is a very fair observation. It is very important to understand that what we are discussing here is the retransmission of the end result with some input. In terms of the cost, as the committee knows - Deputy Stanton quizzed me on it the last time I appeared before the committee - the numbers it got from external consultants were gigantic. That is grand if one wants to set up a television station from scratch. That is not what we are suggesting. We are suggesting that we have a way to do it, we can suck it and see if the punters like it and if they like it, go after it.

Mr. Harvey is proposing an extended type of "Oireachtas Report" which we have now.

Mr. David Harvey

I think less of that because "Oireachtas Report" is judgmental. It requires editorial and commentary. Our number one priority is to get the live feed out there and see what the Oireachtas is doing.

There would still be some editorial.

Mr. David Harvey

We have to have that. There is no harm in pitching the idea that a commentator meet four different Members of the House once a week and have a round table discussion on the events of the week. That is highly appropriate.

It should be varied so the same four Members would not appear every week.

Mr. David Harvey

It would give everyone a crack.

Is the idea that it would start next October?

Mr. David Harvey

It would start on the first day of the next session.

How will the channel go about that?

Mr. David Harvey

We already have fully formed content. Our job would be to take that content, moderate it, schedule it and put it onto 400,000 screens around the country. We would put other elements in between, like new programming about the Parliament, observational work, a potential documentary, highlight programming and, as I said to Senator Burke, once a week have a round table discussion with Members of the Seanad and Dáil to ask them how they got on that week and what it was like.

A question was asked about cost. How will the costing be done?

Mr. David Harvey

We have a budget. As I said earlier, a number of people got a hold of this story early on and the last thing I wanted was for it to be hung by a number. It calls for the rental of some output and broadcast equipment to do this. One cannot purchase additional equipment for a three-month period. There are costs associated with production and editing, scheduling, moving it to the head end and putting it out on the transmission for a 12-week period and a report afterwards.

If it is to come into being on 1 October it would mean that the Seanad might have to change its Order of Business.

We will discuss it.

The broadcast will initially only cover urban areas.

Mr. David Harvey

It will cover urban and rural areas. Anything that is covered on the UPC platform-----

It would not work in the Chairman's constituency, Fermoy, Mallow, Mitchelstown, Midleton, Cobh and Youghal.

Mr. David Harvey

Quite a number of homes are covered in the Youghal area. I looked it up yesterday, funnily enough, as an example. There are homes in the Midleton area on MMDS. It is a broad spread. For example, I was surprised to find yesterday there is a pocket of homes in Ballina. They are all over the country.

MMDS is fairly prominent in the Cork region.

Mr. David Harvey

It is prominent.

We have it in north Cork as well.

Mr. David Harvey

It is prominent in Kerry, Clare and Limerick.

We will discuss Mr. Harvey's proposal. The important thing is the cost factor.

Mr. David Harvey

As I said this is about a test, setting up, starting from scratch and capital expenditure from scratch. It is a different project.

Would Mr. Harvey be able to give a hint to the meeting on the cost factor?

Mr. David Harvey

I have a number of copies of it. Everyone can have one. Is that okay?

That is fine.

Does Mr. Harvey have a radio channel?

Mr. David Harvey

Yes.

Mr. David Harvey

I am a broadcaster on it, I am not a shareholder in it.

I think I spoke to Mr. Harvey.

Mr. David Harvey

About the nappies for the horses?

I thought they were dung catchers.

If we wanted-----

They are equine sanitary devices.

Mr. David Harvey

It was one of our better interviews.

I remember the name David Harvey.

Mr. David Harvey

I am in the current affairs business.

If we wanted to go into private session with Mr. Harvey to discuss financial matters, could we do that? Time is running out on this proposal.

The joint committee went into private session at 5.05 p.m. and adjourned at 5.40 p.m. sine die.
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