I will run through the speaking order. Our first speaker is Deputy Dillon, followed by Senator Ruane and Deputies Cairns, Ward, Murnane O'Connor and Sherlock. Members will have five minutes each.
Refugee Accommodation Crisis: Engagement with Minister for Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth
I thank the Minister and his officials for joining the committee, which is very much appreciated, and for his ongoing efforts in relation to the humanitarian response in what is a really challenging space to be in, in terms of the immediate response to new arrivals and the acquisition of both emergency and temporary accommodation. I do not think there is a public representative in these Houses that has not been impacted in some way by concerns within the communities we represent and we appreciate the response of the Minister and his officials in this regard.
In the Minister's opening remarks he talked about the numbers in terms of the challenge, in that by year end, up to 72,000 migrants will have arrived since last March. There are a further 9,000 projected up to the end of the year. Will we have enough emergency accommodation to accommodate the additional 9,000 people before the end of the year which will bring the total up to 72,000 people?
I thank the Deputy. We are looking to ensure we have and we are looking to gather a line of sight on adequate accommodation for all those who arrive between now and the end of the year, both for international protection and from Ukraine. We also have to recognise the fact that across that time, we may lose accommodation in some areas. Some hotels and other providers may decide not to renew contracts. We have procurement teams on both the Ukraine and international protection sides actively engaged in seeking to secure accommodation.
How difficult is it to be losing accommodation in the current climate and being reactive in placing these people in additional accommodation, at a time when we are really constrained in terms of the numbers arriving versus the accommodation available?
When we lose an existing accommodation provider, it is a significant task for the Department to have to find additional accommodation for everybody there as well as for people who are newly arriving. I also recognise it is very significant for the people who have been living in that particular accommodation, be they from Ukraine or be they international protection applicants, who may have been living there for a while and may have put down some roots and developed some element of stability. I recognise that moving people in those circumstances is really difficult but it is a consequence of the fact that we have placed a heavy reliance on hotel accommodation in order to meet the needs of the significant number of people arriving in our country. We would not have been able to accommodate that number of Ukrainians if we were not using hotels and we would have had to stop or would have had to inform the Ukrainian authorities that we could not accommodate people very early, in March or April of this year. We would not have been able to mount the sort of humanitarian response that we have done, had we not used hotels. We are now looking at other sources, both for Ukrainians and for international protection applicants, and one of those sources is the refurbishment of larger buildings, such as office buildings, on a temporary basis. As the Deputy knows, we have brought forward two statutory instruments to allow for that from a planning point of view. One was initially for beneficiaries of temporary protection but a subsequent statutory instrument was introduced for international protection applicants to allow for an exemption to planning processes in these circumstances.
The Minister talked about a change made to the beneficiaries of temporary protection in their accommodation offerings to improve equity for those who have newly arrived compared with those who have already been staying here. Will the Minister outline what changes have been made in that area?
The key change we are seeking to introduce is that, going forward, we would look for a hotel-based accommodation and we would provide a bed-only accommodation. As the Deputy knows, many Ukrainians are working and others are obviously availing of social welfare protection. It would be open to them to use their income to support their living expenses, whereas their accommodation expenses would be met by the State. That is the situation of a Ukrainian family in pledged accommodation right now. Their accommodation is free, but they use their own resources, be they coming from social welfare or from employment, to meet their living expenses. There is a difference in treatment between Ukrainians in hotel accommodation right now versus in pledged accommodation. We are seeking perhaps to equalise that somehow by saying that everyone’s accommodation is covered but there are the resources there, either through their own resources in employment or through the social welfare resources that are open to them, to allow them to meet their living expenses.
I spoke to the Minister previously around the communication plan and the consultation that is required within communities in relation to the influx of people into a community. I had a certain incident outside Castlebar in a community in Breaffy where there was a major issue with transparency and accountability in terms of the hotel provider outlining what was happening with the establishment of both an international protection, IP, centre and a Ukrainian refugee centre. Going forward, it is crucially important that is put in place, be it through the local authority, councillors, Deputies and the Minister’s agency in terms of the procurement of these centres. People feel the rug is being pulled from underneath them. They want to support this – make no mistake about it. They want to integrate these people into the local schools and sporting clubs and make a comfortable experience for them. However, they are getting second-hand information. Certainly, there are people who are filling that information vacuum. Going forward, consultation would be very much appreciated, be it through the Minister’s Department, a press briefing or some mechanism that would work for the local community. That would be crucially important going forward.
The Deputy has engaged with me very significantly on that and I am grateful for that. In terms of the information, by and large, we try to get information out, particularly to Members of the Oireachtas. We will continue to do that and we will look to continue to improve the manner in which we, as a Department, get information out about accommodating international protection applicants and Ukrainians.
Breaffy Woods is a perfect example. That was opened in a context where we had to shut Citywest. We are having to act far more quickly than I would like, but it is for the very simple reason we need to find beds and spaces for people every day. That is not to make an excuse, because there should be a better mechanism of communication. It is just to provide a reason and context in terms of the team here and working. It is a very new and still a small team. In the context of the challenge we are facing, it has done a huge amount. The ultimate goal is to secure accommodation. I take on board what the Deputy said and we will look to strengthen our ability to get clear and correct information out to people.
I would be somewhat sceptical in saying “consultation”, but I understand the intention. What it is missing is empowerment of communities that are not able to be involved in who comes into their community. I do not think any of us have that right to vet who has safety and shelter over them. However, empowering communities to be part of the humanitarian response and, for example, to help those men we saw on the telly this week take their beds off the back of the trucks and into the halls is what we need to be encouraging and empowering in this country. That is where community comes in – being part of that community humanitarian response, not a gatekeeper response that we say who comes here and when they come here. That is where the balance is not being struck. How can we do that powerful engagement with communities? There are so many people who want to be involved in that. Unfortunately, what is happening is the framing that somehow people are a threat to those who have very little.
Unfortunately, when people have very little, they will look to exercise power over those who have even less. That will then be exploited by those who have different agendas. I speak as someone who is quite concerned in coming from communities that have very little and watching how they are being played somewhat on the question of people coming into their community not being vetted. We do not ask if our neighbour has been vetted when they get their local authority house.
I refer to the role and responsibility of governments to ensure it is factual information, such as leaflet drops, not only about how many are coming in but also about what is going on in terms of power, poverty and people not being an economic threat to each other. Unfortunately, we are not having the space to be able to think well with communities and how they invite people in. Beyond this idea of leafletting houses or having facts and figures for people, what is the role and responsibility of the Department in empowering the community to be part of the positive humanitarian response rather than a reactive “people do not belong here” type of response? How is it doing that?
That point the Senator made about vetting is a very important one. I will respond to that before the broader point. As she knows, vetting has a very specific meaning in Irish law. People get vetted if they are working or volunteering with children or adults who are vulnerable. There is a clear process and that is where vetting takes place. Vetting does not take place anywhere else. If I move into a new apartment block, a new community or wherever, I do not get vetted. None of us gets vetted. That is a very important point to make and I appreciate the Senator raised it.
The Senator used the expression “not having the space to think well”. That, again, is a good summation. We are responding still to a crisis and very significant numbers of people arriving and we have not had that space. When I brought in the White Paper on ending direct provision, I was hoping we would have that opportunity to create that space in terms of our response to people seeking international protection and looking at new ways of accommodating but also new ways of integrating people into communities. Not only have we seen a very significant increase in the numbers seeking international protection, we have had the war in Ukraine as well.
There are mechanisms of the community fora that are set up as part of the Ukraine response. They are looking to bring in the statutory and non-statutory sectors as well. Does that perhaps reach down to the local community centre that will probably be doing much of the on-the-ground integration work? Not always. My Department does large but also small chunks of funding to recognise smaller community groups perhaps doing once-off events to support the integration of international protection applicants.
It is a fair question. There is definitely more work that has to be done. However, it has to be done across government with local government as well. That is, again, one of these reasons we funded integration officers in local authorities - to allow for that space so the local authorities are more involved in that integration work on the ground.
With regard to repurposed buildings, the Minister mentioned vacant properties. is the Minister referring in any case to vacant properties currently within the local authority stock of vacant properties or is he talking about vacant private properties?
The new call that will be undertaken through the local authorities is for vacant private ones. I suppose a holiday home is what always comes to mind with me but it could be a second vacant home that somebody has. I am talking about unoccupied homes that are occupiable in the short term.
I have one more question. I know my time is up but I will not contribute a second time. I have to go to the Seanad.
The Minister mentioned that there are two separate procurement processes for sites: one for Ukrainians and one for those seeking international protection. Is there parity between those in terms of priority? Are the two sets of refugees being treated with parity in the search for accommodation?
There are two separate teams. Originally, it was one team but because of the scale of the need to achieve accommodation, that has been separated in two. There is parity in the Department's prioritisation of achieving accommodation but it is much harder to get accommodation for international protection applicants when we engage with the private sector. That is a reality we face, but there is absolute parity. We do not want to be in a position to turn away anybody.
It says a lot that one is harder to get than the other.
I thank the Minister. It is important that we make the time to discuss this important matter and that he is here to elaborate on the State's response. Unfortunately, it happens in the context of small groups of people intentionally spreading fear and discord focused on the East Wall. It may be important to highlight that. Those far-right agitators spouting hate and misinformation are always looking for those opportunities. Senator Ruane highlighted well how sometimes we can fall prey to those lies and prejudices. It is important to call them out. These groups do not represent the vast majority of people in Ireland or the East Wall community.
It is also important to highlight that to be supportive of people angry with the state of housing, waiting lists and all those issues is one thing but we need to condemn in the strongest terms anyone who blames refugees or asylum seekers for any of our problems. If people want to protest, they should come to Leinster House and express their opinions to decision-makers instead of intimidating those who have come to the State seeking safety.
We all acknowledge that the Ukrainian crisis has been sudden and unprecedented and it has brought nearly 50,000 displaced people into Ireland. That has, in essence, been left for the Department, the Minister and his officials to deal with. From the outside looking in, it seems like there should be more hands on deck. I am interested to know from them all if more Departments need to be more engaged on this issue.
The Minister stated in his opening contribution how significant it is if the Department loses existing accommodation and that without hotels, the Department would have had to stop taking people in March. Are there plans in place for the tourism season when presumably many hotels will want to go back to that kind of business? What is the feeling in the Department on that?
Last month, the Irish Refugee Council report on the accommodation crisis provided a comprehensive analysis and recommendations on many issues that we are discussing. The council pointed out that vulnerable people, including children, are being put in centres that are unfit for purpose. What measures are being put in place to address the health and safety and child protection risks? The council called for the appointment of an inspector of emergency transit and tent accommodation. What are the Minister's thoughts on that?
The council highlighted the need for a refugee response director and a supporting communications plan to convey and oversee logistics, co-ordinate action across Departments and to provide clear communication with the public. There is a glaring need for such a plan, especially concerning the situation in East Wall at present. Many issues could probably be avoided with timely communication. I agree with Senator Ruane that this is not about consultation, but communication. The Minister cited an extensive leaflet drop but, presumably, that is not the only measure he is looking at. What is on the leaflets? If I have time, I will respond with questions.
I thank the Deputy. I agree with her initial comments on our approach and the misuse of concerns by certain nefarious groups, and we are aware of that.
In terms of the assistance from other Departments, and particularly in terms of the move to a longer-term accommodation approach, we are working closely with the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage. That Department, through the local authorities, will take the lead action in terms of the new vacant homes call that will come at the end of the month. As the Deputy will be aware, we were involved with the Irish Red Cross in the first pledge process, which, despite the legitimate criticisms of it, has resulted in 5,500 people being accommodated. That is significant. This new call will be led through local authorities and overseen by the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage. That is an important support. Likewise, the refurbishment of large-scale residential or institutional buildings is being led through that Department. I hope to see that start to deliver a significant number of beds early in the new year. Those measures along with the delivery of modular housing will be important where hotels decide they want to return to tourism for the summer season. Those are measures we are taking. The Taoiseach has certainly spoken of maybe increasing our modular output but we do not have absolute line of sight on everything coming into the spring. We may well look to the third level sector again. It provided considerable support this year and there may well be requests going in there as we go into next summer. There will continue to be pressure on this area.
I engage regularly with the Irish Refugee Council and a range of other NGOs. The Deputy rightly referenced tented accommodation. We are now looking to end the use of such accommodation. Indeed, some of the people living in East Wall were former residents of tented accommodation in Athlone. There are 310 in total living in tented accommodation. We will cease that use.
In terms of children and unaccompanied minors who are arriving in the State, the Irish Refugee Council raised concerns with us, particularly in the identification of the correct age to determine whether someone was a minor or over the age of 18. We have brought forward a new protocol. Tusla, working with my Department and the international protection office, has proposed a new protocol to the various NGOs. I understand they certainly see that as a significant improvement to ensure there is external oversight of a decision by a Tusla social worker that someone is over 18 and does not qualify as a minor.
Regarding the idea of a director, through what I see of how Government operates at present, I am not clear how one person can compel a range of Departments to follow an agenda. That is primarily the way I see it. That is done by the Taoiseach and the oversight takes place within the Cabinet subcommittee. The co-ordination of government response has improved significantly since the Cabinet subcommittee came into being. One of the decisions taken at the most recent subcommittee meeting was to ask all Departments to start planning, particularly for the resource impacts of the Ukraine crisis on them. We are - it is important we do - moving from that reactive point to a more medium-to-longer term planning element. All Departments have been asked to do that piece of work.
I thank the Minister. There is incredible scope to utilise the skill set and determination of refugees and asylum seekers to address not only integration, but also staffing shortages in different settings, from healthcare to construction and beyond. One of the strengths of the Ukrainian programme is ability to work. Many of them have quickly started contributing to local economies in that sense. What measures is the Minister taking to identify professionals and enable them to begin work?
It might not be at that stage yet, but I am just wondering if is. I know that many of them want to. It could include an accelerated process to recognise qualifications and easing of restrictions for non-EEA citizens to work. Too often the barriers seem bureaucratic rather than practical.
NGOs in the area of asylum and refugee support have expressed concern over the emergence of a two-tier system. The response for Ukrainians has shown it is possible to allow people fleeing violence to take up work immediately, to be issued with PPS numbers and that kind of thing. While those in direct provision are waiting months for the temporary residence certificate and have highly restrictive working permissions, will the changes be afforded to them now that we have seen it in practice? Does the Minister think that will happen?
Perhaps we do not know at this stage, but what is the impact of everything in the White Paper to end direct provision? I know the Minister feels strongly about this matter and this was an unprecedented situation. The original date was 2024 and it is understandable that it was impacted. What is the Minister's target date for ending the system?
We estimate that approximately 11,000 Ukrainians are now working in the country. That is a significant addition to the workforce. English language supports are available to them through education and training boards, ETBs. I cannot give more detail on the employment activation provisions, which is more a matter for the Department of Social Protection or the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science. I know there are provisions but I cannot provide great detail on them.
As the Deputy knows, international protection applicants may now work six months after arrival in the country instead of nine months. We reduced the restrictions on the type of work that may be taken up. That is not being re-examined at the moment.
The Deputy's third question was on the White Paper. The White Paper had three key elements -accommodation, integration and supports. Obviously, the war and the increased numbers arriving are impacting the accommodation element. We hope to bring forward some of those other elements. Having integration officers was a medium-term part of the White Paper originally. We are now hoping to see them rolled out this year and we have the funding for them. We are looking at things like translation services and better English language supports to support international protection applicants. We are looking to make it easier and put in more supports so that international protection applicants, while they are here, have a better chance of integrating.
I recognise there is a difference with access to employment. The EU temporary protection directive stipulates that immediate international protection is within six months. However, to give people some chance to settle in the country, six months is a significant improvement on the approach in the past. In that six-month period, we are putting in place better integration measures and better supports to empower international protection applicants, once that six-month period has passed, to join the labour market if they so choose.
I also want to mention the situation in East Wall where international protection applicants are being provided accommodation in a disused ESB building. There seems to be a complete lack of planning by the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth in this instance. We had a similar issue in my own area where asylum seekers were placed in a vacant office building without any dialogue with the community. Along with other Deputies and councillors from my area, I met the Minister and his officials after the decision was made to place these international protection applicants in this disused building. At that meeting we were informed that if there were any changes, the Minister would inform us as elected representatives. This did not happen. I took that in good faith from the Minister. I was very disappointed that at a meeting of the Joint Committee on Housing, Local Government and Heritage, the local Fine Gael Deputy was able to say there was an extension to the contract on this office building. I was not aware of that. I have the same mandate. I am elected in the same area as that Government party Deputy. That is no way to be doing business with any elected representative.
My community in Clondalkin is very generous and welcoming, much like the community in East Wall. In fact, when there were threats to close a direct provision centre in my area in Clondalkin, the local people rallied behind the residents in the direct provision centre because the people in that centre had become part of our community. They had become involved in our GAA clubs and involved in the Tidy Towns. Their children were going to school with my children and they were part of the community. The residents in Clondalkin got out and rallied behind them. They are still there. I do not agree with direct provision centres. I believe they should be in a more humane place, but it just shows the spirit of Clondalkin. East Wall is very similar.
As I already said, there seems to be a complete lack of planning. Originally, Government announced it expected up to 200,000 Ukrainian nationals to come to Ireland. I believe the Minister said at the moment we have 46,000 and so we are nowhere near the 200,000. The situation seems to be a complete mess. Not only was what happened in East Wall disrespectful to the community of East Wall, it was also disrespectful to the asylum seekers. I echo the call by my party leader, Deputy McDonald, on the Order of Business today for the Minister to address the Dáil on the matter. Will he agree to that request? The lack of dialogue has led to division, which is being manipulated by right-wing elements, spreading false information and disinformation in the community, and that is causing division in our community. What lessons have been learned from East Wall? How will the Minister change tactics in future?
The Minister also mentioned that communication with the community in East Wall is ongoing. In what format is this communication taking place? Could that communication not have taken place earlier?
The Deputy mentioned the figure of 200,000. At the start of the war the media quoted a range of figures for the numbers who might flee Ukraine generally and the numbers who might arrive in Ireland. However, no one ever said we would be having 200,000 here. I certainly have never said we were expecting 200,000. I always said we would see the numbers as they arise. This is a wartime situation and we do not know what will happen. We have 62,000 Ukrainians and a further 17,000 international protection applicants. By and large, as a country, we have done a good job in looking after those people. That is recognised by Ukrainian parliamentarians who have come here. Notwithstanding that there have been pressures and there will continue to be pressures, by and large, as a country, we have done well.
The Deputy spoke about Dolcain House in Clondalkin. I recognise that, within community groups in Clondalkin, there is a strong welcome for international protection applicants, which is something I welcome and the State welcomes. It is very important. I met Deputy Ward and other Deputies before people moved in. That was something that needed to be done in swift circumstances. The only reason we moved swiftly was because we needed to be able to find accommodation for people. We see spikes and surges in the numbers of people arriving and we need to provide accommodation swiftly.
As we needed to move swiftly on the accommodation in East Wall, I spoke directly to the Deputies in Dublin Central, and in the case of Deputy MacDonald, I spoke to a member of her team. We subsequently engaged with the Dublin City Council members from the local ward. We are doing an information drop in the area at the moment to let people know the numbers of people who will be using the Two Gateway building. We are providing details of whom people may contact with any concerns, and we can come back to people with direct answers. I absolutely understand there has been speed and that speed has left some people in the local community concerned and upset. We will do our best to provide reassurance on the various points people have raised.
Ultimately, we are trying to provide accommodation to vulnerable people who need accommodation in the State, and the Department will continue to try to do that. We will continue to work with Deputies and Senators across parties to provide them with the relevant information.
Regarding communications, I entered that meeting in good faith.
It was already decided that international protection applicants would move into Dolcain House. I think there was a two-day window between our meeting with the Minister and people starting to move in. There was an extension to the length of the contract for Dolcain House. I was disappointed about the way I heard it and how it was communicated. It did not come from the Department or the Minister. That is not the way that business should be done. I should not have to hear it from a constituency colleague who has the same mandate that I have, as an elected representative.
I asked the Minister if he would accede to Deputy McDonald's request that he address the Dáil about this.
I understand that a contract extension has not yet been undertaken for Dolcain House. There is an option and it is likely that it will be taken up, but it has not been yet. I would wait until there is certainty about that before communicating it. The Deputy is right that it should be communicated at the same time to all Members of the Oireachtas. I left the Dáil so I did not hear the exact nature of Deputy McDonald's request. I would be happy to talk to Deputy McDonald. When I sought to speak to her last week, I knew she was busy, so I spoke to a member of her staff. I am happy to speak to her and go from there.
I thank the Minister.
In his opening statement, the Minister referred to emergency centres that have been opened in all parts of the country, with some 40 accommodation locations utilised since January, across 13 counties. Does someone go out to these emergency centres to check the health and safety standards? How are they assessed, whether with regard to beds, showers, or other matters? What are the plans for the rest of the country? It was good to hear the Minister speak about working across government, with different agencies, non-governmental organisations and local authorities to bring new accommodation into use. He spoke about the new vacant home that he is looking at working on. Communication here is critical. How we speak about this and how this happens to local authorities is important.
The Minister might correct me on this next matter. I believe there was originally talk of quick builds and modular builds. Was that just something that was said rather than being true?
I have spoken to the Minister about refugees. I compliment the Irish people, who have shown so much solidarity and worked so hard to help in any way they can. There have been challenges, as the Minister knows. Most people have shown goodwill, which is welcome. People came into my office and said that they had rooms in their houses, but found it hard to get someone into the rooms. It is a new system. I felt it was not working properly.
I also spoke to the Minister about local authorities. I welcome that he now has a director of services for Ukrainians working with local authorities. I know from speaking to people that the local authorities were not looking after accommodation. That has become an issue. I was delighted about the Minister's opening statement. Local authorities play a huge part in their respective areas because they have local knowledge. If I had a room and wanted to give it out, I would speak to someone in my local authority and have it dealt with straight away, particularly for elderly people or people who are not in a position to go online. That is a significant challenge that needs to be looked at. I know, as the Minister and everyone else does, that the local authority can only do so much. Having someone there who is able to give information will be vital.
The Minister spoke about the leaflet. While I welcome it, I want to know what is on it. Is it about more accommodation? Does it have information about the role of local authorities? At the weekend, we saw that 10 million civilians in Ukraine were without electricity and water. That is unacceptable. I know there are challenges. I believe that we will all do our part and work as well as we can to help with accommodation and employment.
Does the Minister find that language is a big barrier? I know he is working with many different services. A lady came into me the other day who was lovely but did not have a word of English. It is important that we try to understand the language and help as much as we can. I know we are all working together to do what we can.
The Deputy is right to bring it back to the stakes that we face, with the incredibly difficult winter that so many Ukrainians will face. There is not only a war in their country and severe damage to buildings and critical infrastructure, but they are not able to heat themselves in many circumstances. That is a deliberate policy of the Russian military.
Any emergency accommodation centres are inspected to assess health and safety standards and fire certificates. We have a derogation from planning which allows for the repurposing of office buildings or similar for Ukrainians or international protection applicants. I already accepted that there have been issues with the pledge process, but it is important to say that 5,500 people have been accommodated under it. We have taken lessons from it which will be applied in the new vacant homes scheme that is being led by local authorities and will be rolled out in the next weeks. It will be led by each local authority, which will have greater localised knowledge and understanding of where houses are and, in certain rural parts of the country, whether houses, even though they have been offered in good faith, will really be attractive if they are in intensely isolated locations. Deputy Cairns asked about help from other Departments. The appointment of a director of services for Ukraine in every local authority, which was funded by the Minister, Deputy O'Brien, has been important for the ongoing work, both with regard to accommodation and the community fora that have been established around the country and are working well to integrate statutory services and, once accommodation has been secured, to provide a wider range of supports.
I share the view that, with this existential crisis in Europe, the essence of what Europe is and the values that it holds are under threat because of this aggressive act by Russia. We as Irish people have a responsibility to play our part. Notwithstanding all that, I feel we should be allowed to question policies, as we are doing today. When issues arise, we should be allowed to address them freely without any labels being applied. We all encounter specific scenarios in our constituencies. One such scenario that arose very recently for me was where there was a proposed accommodation site in County Cork, which is being made ready at present and is co-located with an educational establishment. I will not be specific about where or what the educational establishment is. Concerns have been expressed to me by parents about having a co-located facility with shared access to public spaces for adults and children. What issues might there be from the point of view of child protection? Could I guide the educational establishment to an identifiable person in Tusla or another body who could liaise with it?
If people have information, a lot of the heat will be taken out of issues. I can make the Minister aware of the specific site after this meeting. If some work were done now, that would alleviate some of the pressures I see building up within the community.
The second issue I raise relates to where buildings are being renovated or repurposed. I have encountered a couple of examples of this. In one case, the building that is being made ready for accommodation purposes would have had to go through the local authority and apply for planning. We all recognise that that hurdle has to be jumped at the moment. Nevertheless, this is one tool we as public representatives can use on behalf of adjacent neighbours where concerns have been expressed and where buildings being renovated feature clear breaches of planning law. I am no engineer or architect but clear breaches of planning law may be taking place to make way for accommodation. There is no apparent recourse for the nearest neighbour who, because of this retrofitting or refurbishment, might be very negatively impacted by it in terms of rights of way, access and so on. Can any mechanism be found through liaising with the local authorities to ensure that where buildings are being retrofitted, there will be a set of standards that are apparent and transparent to everybody? Therefore, if a person were making way for accommodation that is needed, he or she would know to adhere to those guidelines and be cognisant of who his or her neighbours were.
On modular accommodation units, technically, this comes under the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage, but it would be useful to hear from the Minister, Deputy O’Gorman, regarding the proposed 500 modular accommodation units that are proposed to house 2,000 people. Do we have any further information as to the status of that? He may have spoken to this earlier and I apologise if he did. When we think of modular units historically, we think of them as damp, dank prefabs, but the technology relating to modular units has advanced a great deal. There can now be 60- or 70-year timelines on them. I am very glad to hear the Minister say tents will not be used, for example, but we could do a lot if there were a serious advance in respect of putting in place modular units that pass all the standards that are required. That would be a good and quick way to provide accommodation. The Minister might give his perspective on that.
First, I have no problem with answering questions, which is why I am here, and I am happy to engage with members and to continue to do so.
On the co-location of Ukrainian or other accommodation with educational facilities, that has happened in a number of instances, so we have some experience of it. I think it would be best if the Deputy engaged with us and we can take the matter offline after the meeting concludes, if that is okay with him.
Where properties are being renovated or repurposed for either international protection or Ukrainian accommodation, we now have the benefit of a planning exemption. When a planning exemption is used, there is not a planning process and it is quite black and white. We either go through a planning process or have an exemption. The saving grace, perhaps, is that a planning exemption lasts for a maximum of three years, after which, if the use is to persist, a normal planning application to the local authority, followed by one to An Bord Pleanála, has to be undertaken. It is not forever, and while I recognise that three years is not an insignificant period, that is the balance we have sought to achieve in being able to accommodate people in a crisis situation in existing buildings, even if they might not be residential buildings, that are deemed safe from a health and safety and fire protection point of view.
The modular programme for Ukrainians is being conducted between my Department and the Office of Public Works, and the Minister of State with responsibility for that agency, Deputy O'Donovan, has given significant support in that regard. We will be on-site at five locations by the first week in December. We are currently on-site at two and the remaining three will be on-site by the first week of December. That will deliver the first 200 units, comprising about 800 beds given they contain four beds each. The modular units are high quality, with an A2 energy rating, which is higher than that for many houses.
It is higher than the rating for my house.
It is higher than mine as well. The units are built off-site, delivered in a truck and established on-site. We expect that early in the new year, the first set of modular accommodation will be delivered. A total of 500 units are to be delivered under the programme as currently agreed, but there is scope to extend that subject to another Government decision. As I have always said, this is a pilot programme. While I have been very impressed by what I have seen of them so far, people will, obviously, have to live in them.
I am hopeful we can prove that modular can work. The Deputy's party colleague, Deputy Kelly, was a strong believer in it years ago but there was some pushback. It was around the time I was starting in a local authority. People, for various reasons, did not see it as a way forward but I hope they will see it as a way forward now. It may well be used for further Ukrainian accommodation but also as part of the response to the wider housing crisis we face.
The Minister is in an unfortunate position in that many of the questions I wanted to ask have been answered, so he will have to listen to me make some general comments instead.
Not for the first time.
No, not for the first time. This is the advantage of contributing towards the end of the meeting; whether it is true or not, one can always claim one's questions have been answered. I echo the concerns other members raised about the genuine crisis we face and problems here that are being exploited, in a deliberate way, by an aggressive, dangerous far-right element. In recent months, there have been threats to Deputies, of which the Minister will be personally aware, and attacks on Deputies' houses, twice in one case. There has been an assault on a Deputy in the street outside Leinster House and assaults of LGBT activists on our streets, and there has been a rise in homophobic and transphobic violence. These are all symptoms of this growing danger the far right poses. Members of the far right are exploiting concerns, which are perhaps genuine, to drive a wedge and give themselves room. If we allow that at this small level, these wider issues I described, which are a threat to democracy and to our system of government, are only going to continue and get worse. They are exploiting those concerns, and fears are being whipped up, sown and spread.
Behind the crisis is a significant challenge relating to housing policy. For decades, we have not been doing enough on housing. We have a very real housing crisis that is being exploited as part of this, and we are never going to address the issues we are talking about here without addressing that. We are never going to address ending direct provision without addressing that, and I appreciate that the Minster understands that.
He mentioned co-ordination among Departments, which is what I wanted to raise, but it is important that the Cabinet be informed that, in the absence of our addressing the fundamentals of the housing crisis, the matter of accommodation is being used as a wedge issue by those who want to fundamentally destabilise the State and democracy, and that this is working. It is a genuine threat that we need to counter.
I am glad we are moving to a system of local authority pledges and a local-authority driven process. I had questions I wanted to ask on that, so I was relieved there is a move to local authorities. I very much trust the local authorities to do the job effectively. However, empowering local authorities to address this issue and the housing crisis is not just the responsibility of the Minister's Department. We need to find ways for the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage, for example, to empower local authorities to address the underlying issue, which is a fundamental lack of housing in this country. I appreciate this is beyond the remit of the Minister but we need the Cabinet subcommittee to think about how to address the housing crisis, not just the problem under discussion. The latter is but one symptom of it.
The other issue I would like to flag is a little off topic and, therefore, I do not necessarily expect an answer on it now. Other conflicts in Europe, such as the one that led to the collapse of Yugoslavia, and the various civil and other wars left a large number of children orphaned. A large number of unaccompanied minors were left seeking asylum, and that is likely to happen again at the end of the current conflict. We are in a difficult set of circumstances because Ukraine is not a signatory of the Hague Convention. Intercountry adoption will be problematic in this regard. I encourage the Minister to start talking now to the likes of Dr. Geoffrey Shannon and such experts with his children hat on, so to speak, regarding this challenge. There will still be people looking for intercountry adoption. A cohort of children will need it after the conflict. It would be best if they were adopted within their own country but we know from the fall of Yugoslavia that this will not be entirely possible. I ask the Minister to think in the long term and start having conversations now about what we can do about this.
I take on board the Deputy's point on intercountry adoption. We can ask our adoption unit to consider it and deepen our engagement with Ukraine.
The Deputy is correct about the importance of empowering local authorities. Both he and I have spent time on local authorities and will have noted the important and significant things they can do when fully resourced. The points Deputy Murnane O'Connor made on getting the funding for the directors of services were important. In fairness, that funding is from the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage. It has been significant, as has the work on the community response forums for Ukraine that have been set up. Even though the initial pledge process was not run through local authorities, the final step, namely the allocation of housing, is primarily taken by them, assisted by groups such as Peter McVerry Trust and the International Organization for Migration. Local authorities are playing an important role in this regard, and now they will play another in running the vacant homes scheme. I hope the decision we have taken on the doubling of the recognition payment will make the scheme more attractive, both in encouraging more people to apply and in maintaining existing pledged accommodation. The payment will accrue to those who have pledged or will pledge shared or vacant accommodation.
The Deputy has made several important points on wider circumstances and attempts by certain groups to exploit what is happening here. Where people or a community raises a genuine concern, my Department and I will always do everything we can to address it. I have done that in other areas where concerns have been raised. We will continue to do so. We can work with communities in East Wall and other parts of the country to address concerns. We know, particularly from some of the online dialogue in the past week, that there are groups seeking to exploit what is occurring. There are examples of people aggressively questioning international protection applicants, using their phones trying to provoke them and the like. That is deeply concerning. The activity does not represent the relevant communities, nor does it represent Ireland's wider response to people fleeing conflict, irrespective of where it happens.
I have a question for the Minister on the role of director of services in local authorities, about which he spoke. Is it a new role or will it involve an existing staff member taking on additional duties?
My understanding is that it is new. In certain areas, it could have been filled by an existing staff member, in which case that person's old post would have been backfilled, but my understanding is that the role was funded as a new one across all local authorities.
The only other point I want to make, which I made to the Minister before, concerns facilities. There are two facilities in Carlow, for example, that have been trying to offer accommodation. The Minister is aware of one of them and is working with it. The other is ideal. It is right opposite a school that, unusually, is not oversubscribed. The locations are ideal. I believe I have sent the details on. It would be good to follow up on these because those concerned are anxious to proceed. It seems like a win–win, particularly when there is a location across the road from a school that can take in students.
Everything else has been covered. I believe a lot has been unfairly left to the Department. I realise the Minister probably cannot comment on that. In fairness to everyone working in the Department, it has not been easy for them. Does the Minister wish to make any concluding remarks?
No. I thank the Chair. I appreciate the members' questions and engagement. I will be happy to continue to engage as we work to meet the needs of international protection applicants and Ukrainians in our country.
I thank the Minister. It is proposed that we publish the opening statements on the website. Is that agreed? Agreed.
The joint committee adjourned at 4.17 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Tuesday, 29 November 2022.