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JOINT COMMITTEE ON COMMUNICATIONS, ENERGY AND NATURAL RESOURCES debate -
Wednesday, 12 May 2010

Security in Post Offices: Discussion with An Post

The joint committee has invited representatives of An Post to speak to us today about security in post offices. I welcome Mr. John Daly, retail director, and Mr. Steve Clements, head of security. Before we begin, I draw their attention to the matter of privilege. By virtue of section 17(2) of the Defamation Act 2009, they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of evidence they give before the committee. If they are directed by it to cease giving evidence on a particular matter but continue to do so, they will be entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. Only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and the delegates are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not criticise or make charges against a person in either House, a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I now ask Mr. Daly to proceed with the presentation.

Mr. John Daly

I thank the Chairman for the invitation to address the joint committee. I am the director of An Post's retail operations. My colleague, Mr. Steve Clements, is our head of security.

This is an opportune time to meet the committee, as we launched our annual report only two weeks ago. We announced figures for 2009 which reflected well on our response to the economic downturn. We have seen revenue fall by 5.4%, but we have responded by reducing our cost base. Despite very challenging trading conditions, we continued to invest in those parts of the business that will secure a profitable future for An Post in an increasingly competitive market.

I have been asked to talk about the post office network and security issues. An Post's retail business performed strongly throughout the year, with increasing demand for post office-based financial services. The performance of our retail operations has, in many ways, helped to mitigate some of the worst effects of the downturn in other areas of the business. More people are coming through our doors than ever before. We have more than 1.7 million customer visits every week.

Last year customers invested an additional €1.8 billion in State savings products which we operate on behalf of the National Treasury Management Agency. This product range has expanded with the recent introduction of the national solidarity bond which is being sold through post offices since last Tuesday. State savings products are a very important part of business for the post office network, as is the work we do on behalf of the Department of Social Protection. In 2009 we paid out almost €10 billion in social welfare payments. Providing services for all arms of the Government is essential to sustaining a post office network.

Postfone, a new value for money mobile phone service, is being launched this month. It will enable An Post customers to buy mobile phone services through the post office network.

Several new financial services and mail products will also come to the market this year. For example, we are in the final stage of discussions with National Irish Bank on the provision of services for their customers. Earlier this year An Post and its partner BMP Paribas made the difficult but prudent commercial decision to wind down the Postbank joint venture. Following on from this, the One Direct insurance and PostPoint retailer businesses will revert to being wholly owned by An Post.

Our focus remains firmly on maintaining and extending our revenue base. For example, last year we purchased a majority shareholding in the gift voucher shop which trades very successfully in Ireland. We are Ireland's largest retail and services network, serving business and communities the length and breadth of the country. Our 1,185 post offices and 187 postal agencies deliver retail, mail and state services to communities across the country. The vast majority of these offices are operated by independent contractors, with just 57 being operated by An Post staff.

We are going through a change of focus in our post office network. We have already seen new services and products available to customers. We are moving from an emphasis on managing basic transactions to a more comprehensive customer relationship. This is key to the future success of our retail network. As our chief executive, Mr. Donal Connell, said on his last visit to the committee, "Innovation, renovation and investment in the retail network will be our guiding principles."

Over 1,000 post office staff in 300 offices are part of our Customerplus programme. This is essentially a sales and customer service training programme aimed at making the move to serving our customers better. The results so far from our offices in the Customerplus programme have been impressive, with average sales in the top 60 offices growing by more than 8% and in the top ten by more than 22%. A "mystery shopper" programme which we run across our post offices has underscored the success of the Customerplus programme.

Mr. Connell and I told the committee in February 2009 that An Post planned to have a fully automated national network. We are entering the final phase of that operation, as the last of more than 200 non-automated rural offices are brought on-line. Some offices have chosen to close rather than take on this automation programme, determining, for their own reasons, that they wished to exit the business. The computerisation enables these offices to carry on the full range of post office retail services and enables these post office contractors to grow their business and extend the range of services they offer to customers such as post office savings, financial services, general banking, BillPay, mobile top-ups, money transfer facilities, prize bonds and gift voucher purchases.

Committee members may be aware of the recent appearance of a mail service point in local shopping centres or business premises. They may have seen them in the Bridgewater Shopping Centre in Arklow or at Dublin Airport. These machines allow customers to avail of our mail services and buy stamps from a stand-alone unit. A key driver for us is increasing the number of locations at which people can access our services.

There are sensitive issues in respect of the security of post offices and staff into which I cannot go here, and I ask for members' assistance in this regard. The availability of detailed specific information on our security measures in the public domain would be useful for those with criminal intent. The principal priority in our security and crime prevention objectives is the safety of staff and customers. We also aim to safeguard cash which remains a key part of our business. We do this in a number of ways. We have invested heavily in providing each post office with appropriate security aids. Each post office has time-locked safes, CCTV systems, panic buttons, alarms and so on. We have detailed security procedures specific to each office which emphasise to all of our contractors and staff the importance of keeping cash under time lock until it is needed and to have available at post office counters as little cash as is operationally necessary for the efficient transaction of business. We have frequent security seminars at which we update contractors and staff on trends in security matters. Security manuals are available in every office and security alerts are issued electronically where required.

We have audit teams based around the country which examine offices to ensure compliance with our procedures and ensure offices remain vigilant and aware of the importance of full and complete compliance at all times with such procedures. Each successful robbery, from the criminal point of view, puts other post offices at risk, particularly if the amounts of cash taken are excessive. We must be able to demonstrate that big sums of cash are not available when robberies take place. Unfortunately, there was an increase in the number of what we term "security incidents" from 60 in 2008 to 100 in 2009. While this is a 67% increase, the figure represents the total of such incidents, many of which were unsuccessful, as there was no cash loss. In fact, the associated cash losses caused by these incidents showed no material increase. While all security incidents are deeply regretted, it is encouraging to note that the company's investment in security devices and training has been successful. Compliance by the vast majority of contractors and staff with security procedures has also played a vital role, as has the amount of security and anti-crime training we provided for postmasters and their staff in 2009. This extra level of training was provided by the company to prepare us for the changing nature of crime against post offices and staff.

An Post became a signatory to the State-sponsored voluntary code of practice in 2005. The company subsequently invested over €15 million in upgrading security across our retail network. This had an immediate and positive impact on the level of crime, which fell in 2006 and which continued to fall in 2007 and early 2008. We have also fully outsourced our cash deliveries to a professional cash handler, thus ensuring that our own staff no longer deliver cash to our post offices as was the case in the past.

By November 2008, however, the crime rate began to rise again. Crime continued to rise throughout 2009 and is continuing on this upward trend in 2010. This increase in the crime rate is attributed to the current economic climate and not to any weakening of the security measures in place at post offices. Quite the reverse is the case. Members may have seen recent newspaper headlines relating to an increase in robberies. This followed the publication of the Central Statistics Office's recorded crime data for the first quarter 2010. In particular, I draw members' attention to the Central Statistics Office's classification of robberies on institutions. In that context, recorded robberies against institutions rose by almost 10%, but robberies at post offices account for only 4% of the total. The latter figure is down from 6% last year. While each robbery is regrettable, considering the size and spread of our retail network, this shows that An Post is not particularly victimised.

We will continue to invest heavily in security measures both nationally and at post office level. We will also continue to train staff and contractors in security techniques. We are confident that our investment in this regard has been successful in preventing crimes and deterring the criminals.

Within our security services, we also have a dedicated crime prevention unit which works closely with the Garda in order to mitigate any emerging crime threats. In this regard, I refer to the recent phenomenon of so-called tiger kidnappings. The unit actively supports staff and postmasters through the provision of both physical and electronic security products, as well as producing the necessary protocols and procedures that are designed to promote safety and security. We also spend a great deal of time, effort and resources in research and development in order to keep both abreast of technology and, hopefully, one step ahead of the criminals. This is a national problem. We are doing everything possible to make life difficult for criminals. We are particularly conscious of our duty of care to our staff, contractors and customers and this underpins everything we do.

We are conscious that these are difficult times for everyone, particularly our customers. We are focused on the need to broaden our revenue base. Most importantly, however, we are focused on the need to improve both the service and the range of services we provide for our customers in a trusted and safe environment. Only in this way will we deal with the current economic downturn and build firm foundations for the future.

While I did not request that this meeting be held, on several occasions I have raised the issue to which it relates in respect of the town of Bray, where a series of attacks on the main post office occurred. I was concerned by the fact that a repeat pattern seemed to be developing. I must pay tribute to An Post because the matter to which I refer appears to have been resolved. Efforts have been made to protect staff and customers of the main post office in Bray. For a long period, the level of stress for those who worked or transacted business there was unacceptably high. I support An Post with regard to the efforts it has made.

In the current climate, anyone who deals with money faces certain risks and dangers. What happened at the main post office in Bray should never have transpired. While progress was initially slow, it is important to note that the matter was eventually resolved.

I welcome our guests and thank them for their presentation. I have been involved for some time with issues relating to An Post. I am interested in the number of post offices that are now operating on a semi-private or contractual basis. While many of us probably opposed such developments in the past, I wish to pay tribute to the contractors and staff who have taken over post offices. I also pay tribute to the former postmistresses, postmasters and staff of An Post who provided a valuable service in the past. As the previous speaker indicated, State support for these individuals was slow in coming.

It was stated that more than 200 non-automated offices remain to be brought on-line. It was also stated that "Some offices have chosen to close rather than take on this automation programme, determining for their own reasons that they wished to exit the business." Is this factually true in all cases? I am aware of certain instances where a great deal of persuasion and strong-arm tactics were employed. Those who ran particular offices might not, because of their age or the age profile of their customer base, have been in a position to accede to the automation process. It would be a pity if people were forced out for that reason while another reason was actually given for what happened.

Computerisation obviously allows for the provision of a broader range of services. This is a welcome development. Some areas do not have access to broadband services, while the speed of such services in other areas is quite slow. This complicates matters.

I compliment An Post on the assistance it has provided to staff and customers in respect of security issues. There is a need to be ever-vigilant and to continue to develop security measures. One becomes aware of post office vans, obviously accompanied by armed escorts, arriving and departing at the same time on the same day each week. In many instances, major amounts of cash are delivered to post offices where there might only be a postmistress and one other member of staff and once the armed escort has departed, there is not much security in evidence. Whether one is going to school, work or tending to one's crops, one becomes aware of the pattern established in respect of the delivery of money to post offices. Everyone becomes aware of delivery times. In such circumstances, there is a need to change or stagger deliver times, disrupt patterns, etc.

An Post did its best to remove the post office in Cahir, the town in which I live, some years ago. However, a negotiated settlement was reached and the office was taken over by a contractor. Despite people's fears and inhibitions, the post office has since become a tremendous success, thanks mainly to the postmaster, Mr. Henry Reidy, and his excellent, hard-working staff, many of whom were previously staff of An Post. These individuals have worked hard to expand the range of services on offer at the post office. It is a pity An Post does not make more use of the building, which is large and the remainder of which is empty. It is a magnificent, old listed building and it could be put to many good uses.

I welcome the delegation from An Post and thank its members for their informative presentation. I compliment them on the, by and large, efficient and friendly service An Post offers.

Reference was made to the economic downturn. What is the current size of An Post's workforce? To how many people does it give meaningful employment? Has An Post's next day delivery service improved to any great extent since our previous meeting? As stated at that time, I do not consider the delivery of post to people in rural areas at 4 p.m. as being a next day service. If a person's mail is business-related and if he or she needs to contact his or her bank or solicitor, receiving correspondence at 4 p.m. means that he or she must wait until the next day to take action. Has An Post amended its figures to take account of this fact?

An Post offers a social service, particularly to many elderly people. The postman is a great outlet for them to discuss their affairs and any problems in the area they may seek to address. However, there is an increasing trend on the part of An Post not to deliver in country areas. Mail is left at the end of a road or, in some cases, at a point in a nearby village. Has An Post's policy remained firm in this regard? I acknowledge the company has an obligation to make money for its investors and shareholders. However, what is its opinion on the social end?

As for the 200 post offices about to be automated, Mr. Daly has noted that many people have decided to opt out of the service. Is it not the case that they had no option but to opt out and that this constitutes closure by stealth? Apart from broadband being an issue in rural Ireland in that it is either absent or of very poor quality, I understand An Post pays a meagre sum per transaction and that, given the limited range of business in the countryside, this, in effect, constitutes closure by stealth. An Post is forcing the people concerned out and the customer into larger towns. Does it have a concern about the ongoing welfare or development of town centres? In many cases, the contract person has been forced out of the town centre because An Post has been locating its offices in larger supermarkets primarily or in major stores such as IKEA. While I understand that is where the crowd the company needs is to be found, is An Post concerned about development in town centres?

The delegates also might provide more details for members of the new mobile phone service the company proposes to launch in a few weeks' time. They also should outline the knock-on effects, if any, for An Post and its customers of the ceasing of the Postbank service.

I thank the Chairman for facilitating this meeting and welcome the delegation from An Post. I have a few general questions before I turn to a more specific issue that I wish to raise.

I am delighted to hear that, as is well known, there is ongoing involvement with the Garda Síochána to enhance security measures to combat burglaries and criminal activity. Is there an appreciation of the lack of Garda cover in Border areas beside large urban centres? I refer, in particular, to Derry city, the fourth largest city in Ireland. It is well known and articulated by the public in east County Donegal that their experience being in close proximity to a large city such as Derry is not in parallel with that, for example, of people living in suburban areas of Galway or Cork. When working with the Garda, does An Post take into account the fact that in the case of many post offices there is not a similar pattern of Garda presence as in the case of post offices elsewhere?

I refer to the security training conducted in 2009 to which Mr. Daly referred. Did it constitute an increase on the training conducted in 2008? At what point in 2009 did this increase in training take place? Was it at the beginning or the middle of the year, or did it take place throughout the year?

I refer specifically to Carrigans post office. I raise this issue on behalf of the community, rather than on behalf of the post office or its staff. I am aware of the ongoing investigation which I do not wish to prejudice. However, I raise the issue because it is in the public domain at both national and local level. I wish to break up the question into three parts. Is An Post satisfied with the level of support it has given to the postmistress since the robbery? The delegates may not have such information to hand, but I certainly will seek an answer on this point after the meeting. Second, what security training has An Post provided for the aforementioned postmistress since the robbery? Third, what positive message does it wish to send to post offices faced by different obstacles in large suburban areas along the Border — I mentioned Derry city in this regard — which do not enjoy a similar level of Garda resources? What message of confidence does it wish to send to such post offices to assure them the company is working in close liaison with the Garda to ensure the availability of additional security measures?

As a public representative, I fear that this concern and obvious anomaly in respect of Garda resources in Border areas is not being taken into consideration by An Post. Unless this is being done, I ask the delegates, as representatives of the company, to put in place a work plan, whereby it will take into consideration the fact that there are fewer gardaí present in Border areas and will send a message of confidence to the aforementioned post offices in suburban areas of large urban centres. From my contact with the local community in Carrigans, it is becoming evident that the investigation mechanism employed by An Post is not being operated in an even-handed manner. I seek balance and fair play in this regard. Moreover, An Post should take into consideration that each case is not the same. Given that one can have fewer Garda resources in heavily populated areas, each location should not be treated the same. That is my request this morning.

I acknowledge the delegates have appeared before the joint committee as messengers which I certainly am not in the business of shooting. However, I wish to use them as a conduit to report back to An Post that the local community feels aggrieved and seeks fair play with regard to the ongoing investigation.

I thank the delegates for their attendance and presentation. In common with other colleagues, I pay tribute to An Post for the wide range of services it provides and the valuable role it plays within the community. I note from the presentation that the company has invested significantly in security measures in recent years, which is welcome. More significantly, however, it appears to be paying off for An Post on the basis of the figures presented to members. I welcome, in particular, that it has outsourced its cash deliveries and that staff are no longer expected to carry cash between post offices. This was a practice that left staff and post offices vulnerable. That said, when one considers the 100 incidents that occurred in 2009, it is important to keep in mind that behind each such incident is a traumatic event. Do our guests have figures that could indicate how many of those 100 incidents involved staff and-or customers, if injuries were incurred and what supports are in place for staff and customers following such incidents? I am conscious of a 2009 incident in my area in which customers and staff were involved. Unfortunately, the customers were older people who had called down to collect their pensions. They found the incident distressing, although no one was injured. Being caught in the middle of such an incident would be traumatic for anyone. Due to the involvement of cash, post offices are vulnerable to this type of incident, but I welcome the additional security An Post has put in place.

The presentation referred to the closure of Postbank and the decision made earlier this year. How is Postbank's winding down proceeding? Is it An Post's hope to have all accounts closed by the end of the year? Are challenges emerging for some customers who might not be in a position to have all of their outstanding affairs with Postbank resolved by the end of the year and what measures does An Post propose to put in place to facilitate them?

Last week, I had cause to be in contact with Postbank on behalf of a customer. I pay tribute to its staff, who are assisting with the closing down, as they were facilitative and supportive of the customer, but it made me wonder what would happen to customers who cannot get their affairs in order.

I welcome the presentation and congratulate our guests on how positive it was. From my dealings with people in my clinics and who I meet, I am not seeing any negativity concerning the service An Post delivers. Indeed, I am happy to be able to record the fact that the public's reaction to what An Post is doing and their experience of An Post's services are quite to the contrary. It is good that An Post is expanding its services.

Will our guests comment further on their proposed mobile telephone service? The market has considerable potential for An Post if its prices are fit to cut. I do not know how much our guests believe they can achieve in this respect, as the expense is significant. The cost of mobile telephones for teenage children poses parents a considerable problem, although that is a slightly different debate. Will our guests elaborate on this issue? Given the level of use of mobile telephones, there is significant potential. How ready is An Post to enter the market with its product?

I would be interested in a more detailed response on the financial services area. Postbank is being closed down, but——

Senator O'Reilly has money to invest.

That is right, so it is a critical question. Is there much potential for the expansion of financial services? An Post's level of savings is interesting. A few colleagues and I have noted the high level of savings nationally despite the recession. Perhaps this indicates the failure to instil confidence in people to invest their money in the economy, job creation and so on.

I am interested in the prize bond product. The marketing of prize bonds is somewhat inadequate in light of the overall potential.

An interesting question arises around An Post's automated programme. The submission refers to how a number of traditional postmistresses and postmasters had given up their post offices as a consequence of automation. Will the guests assure the committee that a training programme of a high quality is in place for those entering at that level, one that assumes an ignorance of IT and so on? The point raised by my colleague, Deputy Coonan, is of extraordinary seriousness to politicians, particularly those representing constituencies, in that we are sensitive to the reality that we need to maintain the post office network. It is very much a piece of the fabric of local communities. For this reason, I am excited by An Post's efforts to expand services and to keep small post offices open.

On a day like today, it is important that we use this public meeting to urge people to use An Post's services. Only through their use can offices stay open. I want a detailed assurance to the effect that there is a training programme, an allowance of time for people to adapt to the new service and the encouragement to do so and that all of this is not just about closing post offices through other means. Where broadband is unavailable, one assumes the new service will not proceed. Will our guests assure the committee that the local office will not be victimised for the lack of broadband services?

An Post's security initiatives are to be welcomed. It is imperative that two actions be taken. First, the delivery of cash should be erratic, which would involve camouflaging and changing patterns, access routes, etc. There should not be the clearly discernible daily pattern referred to by Deputy McGrath, as people would be ready for it. Second, An Post should take account of areas in which Garda resources have been depleted and try to find ways to deal with the problem. Will our guests comment on these suggestions?

I was alarmed by one of Deputy Coonan's comments. I am unaware of anything similar occurring in my area, but will our guests assure the committee that deliveries to people in isolated areas will not be reduced? This is the social function of An Post and supporting it is the reason we, as public representatives, are so anxious to support An Post's expansion of other services. Given the people I represent, it would be remiss of me not to seek an assurance that An Post is as committed to the delivery of services to people in isolated areas today as it ever was.

I apologise for my late arrival. I welcome the An Post delegation. Perhaps I will stray from security issues, as I wish to raise the matters of retail sales and people with disabilities. I understand that a number of post offices have been made wheelchair-friendly in recent years, but the post office in my home town of Enniscorthy is not accessible to people with disabilities. For a number of years, we have been promised the situation would change. As Mr. Daly knows, the sorting office moved from the post office on Millpark Road inEnniscorthy to a new premises. For the life of me, I cannot understand why it cannot be made wheelchair-accessible.

For some time, a number of people have wanted to purchase An Post's property beside Dunnes Stores in Enniscorthy.

The final point I want to make to Mr. Daly, who spoke about retail sales, and improving the quality of service to the customer, is that the post office in New Ross is shabby and dilapidated. It is not in keeping with modern shops. People cannot access the post office in Enniscorthy if they are in wheelchairs or have any disability because there are steps up to it. On Thursday morning and Friday morning, people queue on the street in the rain, frost and snow and that is not good enough in this day and age. We are asking for the same upmarket post office in Enniscorthy as we have in other parts of the country.

Deputies McGrath and Browne referred to the An Post buildings. In some of our rural towns there are iconic buildings, some of which are protected. I am thinking in particular of Muine Bheag, Bagnelstown. The post office has now moved out of the building, which has fallen into disrepair. Although it is not major structural repair, it could do with painting. What is the policy of An Post in this regard? It is a pity to see fine buildings that have been the cornerstones of towns fall into disrepair. It would be in everyone's interests if they were maintained to a standard if not sold.

Mr. John Daly

I will address the common features of those questions. I refer to the non-automated offices. We have not adopted a heavy-handed approach. This committee and other people have been pushing us to automate offices for years. It was a good decision to do so. The postmasters in the offices chose to go of their right, primarily because the customer base has reduced over years as customers choose to do their shopping in bigger towns. Customers pass post offices to do their business in bigger offices. These offices have chosen to go and we have not pushed them.

They receive a comprehensive training programme and ongoing support from regional offices and the training team. Every office has a dedicated trainer they can call on at any time if they have problems. They receive extensive training.

Broadband is not an issue because it is not a requirement to automate an office. Telephone lines are adequate and for the volume of business that goes through these offices, broadband is not a necessity.

Regarding Deputy Coonan's question, we still have 10,000 employees. Last year, we reduced this by 400 and our plan is to reduce the workforce by 1,375 over three years.

Were the 400 jobs lost mainly postmen or office jobs?

Mr. John Daly

They were predominantly postmen and predominantly full-time equivalent or overtime reductions rather than individual staff.

I suggest they were predominantly in rural areas.

Mr. John Daly

This was all around the country. Our next day delivery rate, as measured by ComReg, rose to 84% in 2009, an increase of 5% on the previous year. We are still committed to the ComReg target of 94%, which we expect to reach by 2011. Regarding rural deliveries, we have an obligation and a wish to deliver to each door and we have no plans or policy to force people to get roadside letterboxes.

Even in provincial towns, people receive their post at three o'clock, four o'clock or five o'clock in the evening. Does Mr. Daly consider that next day delivery?

Mr. John Daly

Yes. Businesses have the opportunity to collect their post earlier if they so wish. We do not have the capacity and could not supply the cost of delivering everyone's mail before nine o'clock, 10 o'clock or 11 o'clock in the morning. It would not be possible. Businesses have the possibility of collecting mail earlier in the day.

Must they pay a fee?

Mr. John Daly

Yes.

They have that right.

Mr. John Daly

Yes.

Mr. John Daly

Deputy Coonan mentioned that we are forcing offices out of towns and into supermarkets. We are not forcing offices to go anywhere. When vacancies arise, we advertise positions and we can only choose from those who apply. In many cases, those who apply are supermarkets such as SuperValu or Centra because they believe the service adds to the value of their store. We also take account of the premises offered, the quality of the premises and the quality of the location. We take the best location we can for the customer in the location. We are certainly not seeking to force people from small shops into supermarkets. We choose from those who apply in order to provide the best service to customers.

Some members asked about the new mobile service, which is on sale from this week in a small number of post offices. This will be rolled out to the network across the next couple of months. It is a simple mobile offering a simple text rate and a simple per minute rate. We will not offer complex packages with free calls and free text. It is a simple product that we believe will be popular with many customers because they know exactly what they are paying, how much a text costs and how much a call costs. It will be rolled out to offices over the next couple of months.

Is it a pay-as-you-go service?

Mr. John Daly

It is a prepaid service to start with and we will consider expanding the service later. It will start as a pay-as-you-go service.

As I said in my presentation, the decision to close Postbank was a disappointment but in the current financial circumstances An Post and BNP Paribas had no choice. The level of loss was unsustainable and a foreseeable journey to profitability did not exist. The funding losses in order to keep it going could not be taken on board. We have been and will be in discussion with other providers to provide alternative financial services. We believe financial services are a key part of the future of post offices. We are in detailed discussion with National Irish Bank to provide a similar service to their customers as we provided for years to AIB customers. That should be the first step towards providing more services to customers.

State savings have been going very well and I mentioned the figure we took in last year. The fund will reach approximately €10 billion this year in terms of the money invested in State savings. The trust in the An Post brand and the State savings product is driving people to these products. We believe this will continue. Prize bonds have been marketed most over the past months, particularly in November and December when we launched a new television and radio advertisement. This will be broadcast again in April. Like all State savings products, prize bonds have been very popular with customers.

I refer to security issues and the points made by Deputy McHugh. It is not for me to comment on the level of Garda cover other than to say we are happy with the support we get from the Garda Síochána around the country. This applies to Border areas, Dublin or anywhere else. The procedures we have apply equally to all offices but there are specific procedures for certain offices depending on location. Deputy McHugh asked me what positive message I could provide to postmasters. If they comply fully with procedures at all times, the level of risk is very low. While I do not want to comment on any case, the robbery at Carrigans post office was traumatic. An investigation is ongoing. I am happy with the support we have provided to the postmaster since the robbery. Staff in the regional office have visited the postmaster many times and are always available to help out this post office. They were invited along with every office to seminars we gave last year. They were held right throughout 2009 and Mr. Clements will talk more about them shortly. The postmasters who were not able to attend the first seminar were given a second opportunity to address it later. Mr. Clements will outline what the seminars were about.

I do not accept that the investigation is not being done in an even-handed manner. I believe it is being done in an even-handed manner. We have a fair process in place to deal with cases like this and, other than that, I do not want to comment on an individual case. I said in my presentation that the vast majority of staff and contractors comply at all times with procedures. A small number of postmasters and postmistresses do not comply at all times and each time they do not comply and each time that results in a successful robbery from the criminal point of view in terms of a lot of cash taken, it puts every other postmaster at risk. That I why I would say to all postmasters that complying with procedures puts every other post office less at risk. That is the message I would give to postmasters but I believe that we have adopted fair process with Carrigans as we do in all cases of investigation. Mr. Clements will refer to training while I try to pick up on the rest of the questions.

Mr. Steve Clements

One of the duties of my crime prevention unit is to monitor crime trends all the time. When we started on the major security project in late 2005, we saw an immediate downturn in crime. We monitored the trend and it continued in a downward direction until November 2008 when we saw this sudden plateau and then crime started to rise. As a result of that, we discussed with Mr. Daly and his regional management team the need to get out and meet face to face with postmasters. In total in 2009 we did 105 evening events the length and breadth of the country. We did them in two tranches. We did the first group in April and May and then we went back out again to all parts of the country in September and October. Some people who did not make the earlier ones were encouraged to make sure they turned up at the second tranche of training seminars.

At the seminars we educated the postmasters and their staff who turned up about what the current crime trends were. Certain things became apparent like empty adjoining premises. Criminals were exploiting that as a method of breaking into both banks and post offices. We deconstructed the security manual to explain why certain procedures were important such as time delay and time overlock. We went through those procedures in detail to help the postmasters and their staff understand the rationale and thinking behind them, which at all times is about increasing safety for them, their staff and their customers. We also specifically concentrated on one particular section to do with the emergence of tiger kidnapping. It was specific and focused. We did the length and breadth of the country and we had between 20 postmasters a night, with 60 turning up at one location. A high degree of training provision, therefore, was undertaken primarily by my own security managers in both the crime prevention unit and our investigation unit with support from Mr. Daly's retail management team.

How did the roadshow training compare to 2008?

Mr. Steve Clements

Initially in 2008 crime was still on the way down and we still had not done any major training events. What we did in 2009 we had done previously in 2006. As we were introducing the new security improvement programme we did the last major series of roadshows involving my team but it was in response to the change of crime trend that we decided to go back on the road last year and it will become a feature again this year.

When did the roadshow begin in 2009?

Mr. Steve Clements

We started the first tranche in April and May.

When was the Carrigans post office robbery?

Mr. Steve Clements

February.

Before the security roadshow?

Mr. Steve Clements

Yes.

Mr. Daly may not accept my observation that there is an unevenness to the handling of my investigation and he is entitled to his opinion but I reiterate that there is a problem, which has been highlighted by the community and a number of people in the area. A roadshow began in April and May 2009 as a result of an increased tiger kidnappings and heightened security awareness but the robbery took place in February before the security measures and security training were introduced. That has to be taken into account as a fact in the context of how this postmistress is being treated because it is easy to lock the door after the horse has bolted. A robbery took place in February before any of the security training provisions were put in place in April and May 2009 and that has to be taken into consideration in this investigation. I stand by my analysis and observation regarding the unevenness of the handling of this investigation and I will continue to put it on record. It is my job as a public representative to do that. The officials are present as messengers. I have never been in the business of shooting the messenger but I want Mr. Daly to take a strong message back to the investigation team that there is a problem and the investigation is not being conducted in a fair manner. Will he pass on that information?

Mr. Daly has outlined that it is an operational matter.

I appreciate and respect that.

Mr. John Daly

I refer to a number of questions raised by Senator Corrigan. The number of injuries during robberies is low but I do not have a definitive number. A number of robberies were traumatic for customers, particularly one in north Dublin. In those cases, assuming the customers are still there, we attempt to get their names and addresses and contact them to make sure they are okay. We give the postmasters support afterwards. We have health people around the country whom they can see if they so wish.

The wind down of Postbank is starting with a letter out to customers this week to tell them about the programme of the wind down and to outline to them what they need to do. We have not seen any challenges to date. The customers who have contacted us have had no issue transferring money and much of the money is coming back to the post office in terms of the post office savings bank. I will bring back the Postbank management to keep an eye on the challenges to make sure and if customers are having issues, we will deal with them as they arise.

With regard to Deputy Browne's questions, we have four company offices that are not wheelchair friendly, including Enniscorthy and Arklow. We are working on solutions. He rightly said that the mail people have moved out of the Enniscorthy office similar to the Arklow office. We are moving to create a better office for those areas now that we have the space to do it. Those plans are well on track.

When will a wheelchair friendly post office be available in Enniscorthy? In this day and age, it is hardly acceptable. I have discussed this issue with a number of staff in the office and temporary access could be provided through the old sorting office if there was a will to do it.

Mr. John Daly

I do not have the answer here but I will come back directly to the Deputy on that. He mentioned other property in Enniscorthy but I am not aware of it. I will bring this back to our property section. I am well aware we also need to do some work on the New Ross office.

The Chairman and others referred to some of our iconic buildings around the country. We are aware of our responsibility for iconic buildings and we take it on board where we can. I cannot comment on whether we still own Muine Bheag or whether it has been sold and I will come back to the committee on that. Our policy is to sell premises we do not need. Obviously, in the current day and age, it is quite difficult to get rid of premises.

The market is flat at the moment, but in the meantime, for cosmetic reasons, they should be maintained.

Mr. John Daly

I will bring that message back to our property people. Deputy McGrath mentioned Cahir. The building in Cahir is now owned by the contractor, Henry Reidy. The Deputy also made some positive comments, which I would echo, about some of the offices that have converted from company offices to contractor offices — some of our best performing contractor offices. It is encouraging to see that.

On behalf of the committee, I thank Mr. Daly and Mr. Clements for appearing before the committee and for their presentation and their response to members.

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