JOINT COMMITTEE ON COMMUNICATIONS, MARINE AND NATURAL RESOURCES debate -
Wednesday, 23 Mar 2005

Tailings Pond at Silvermines: Presentation.

Chairman

I welcome Mr. Michael Daly, Mr. Michael Enright, Ms Loreto Farrell, senior geologist, and Ms Rosemarie Gorman from the Department of Communications, Marine and Natural Resources.

I draw attention to the fact that while members of the joint committee have absolute privilege, the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before it. The committee cannot guarantee any level of privilege to witnesses appearing before it. Under the salient rulings of the Chair, members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House, or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. We will hear the presentation which will be followed by a question and answer session.

The discussion will last for 30 minutes. Senator O'Meara and Deputies Hoctor, Lowry and Durkan will ask questions. I apologise for the absence of Deputy Michael Smith and Senator Coonan. We seek an up-to-date briefing on whether the matters regarding tailings in the silver mines in County Tipperary have been finalised.

Mr. Michael Daly

I am somewhat constrained in what I can say because we submitted a report to the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources on this issue which he is considering. Certain legal dialogues are also continuing and I am not at liberty to say what is in the report.

An Adjournment debate in the Seanad on 27 January, with which Senator O'Meara is familiar, dealt with this topic and the Minister's response outlined the position. I will give an update on that. Due to the Statute of Limitations we issued and served summonses on the company in December 2004 but put those on hold while we continued dialogue with it. They can be activated at any stage in the future. The two sides agreed to the serving of notices and that while the dialogue with Mogul continued we would not proceed to initiate the legal process.

Acquiring information from Mogul was a long and complex process. We sought this throughout most of 2004. We received the last information on 17 January 2005. It was issued to our consultants, SRK, a well-known Cardiff-based consultancy in this field, the Environmental Protection Agency, North Tipperary County Council and the Gortmore Action Group. We held meetings with each of those groups and we invited them to send their comments to us in writing.

The process was long but the company accepted that it had obligations in the context of clause K with which it could deal. This was a protracted process, particularly as we had set out lengthy lists of information and supporting data that we required in respect of the proposals. Mogul Ireland Limited is not an active company and has few human or financial assets. Much of its work was done by consultants and it was probably borrowing to fund some of that work. We had to proceed with the dialogue because if we were to abandon it, we would be obliged recommence the entire process. The exploration and mining division of the Department decided to continue the process and bring it to a satisfactory conclusion. It was completed last month.

We have summarised the Mogul proposals and the views of the EPA, Gortmore Action Group, North Tipperary County Council and our advisers. We have also summarised our conclusions. We have submitted the report to the Minister, Deputy Noel Dempsey, who is currently evaluating it. That is where the process stands. We have completed our dialogue with Mogul Ireland for the moment but legal consultations relating to the company are ongoing.

Senator O’Meara

I thank the Department officials for attending and updating us on this difficult and protracted matter. When I sought the agreement of the committee to have this matter put on the agenda today, I had hoped we would be discussing the contents of the report to the Minister and his decision on the matter. I had also hoped we would be discussing the remediation plan for the tailings pond and the other former mine sites in the Silvermines area. For whatever reason, we have not yet reached that stage but I acknowledge the work done by the Department officials. I thank them for their perseverance and patience, particularly in what have occasionally been difficult discussions with Mogul Ireland, the company primarily responsible for the rehabilitation of a number of the mine sites in the area.

With the chairman's permission, I also note the support of Deputies Hoctor, Lowry and Michael Smith — who cannot be present today — and Senator Coonan. Their support has been important because this is an all-party issue. The support of the committee has also been important.

As Mr. Daly has pointed out, a political decision must now be made by the Minister. The matter has been progressed and I look forward to the Minister making the decision in the near future, despite the constraints on his time and the complex legal issues involved. There has been a long engagement between the Department and the community, involving the EPA, the county council, SRK and Mogul Ireland.

The final proposal put to all the parties by Mogul Ireland falls far short of a satisfactory solution to the pollution problem in Silvermines and far short of what could be adequately described as a rehabilitation plan for the area. It seems to constitute above all else a commercial proposal by Mogul Ireland to use the tailings pond as a dump for low-grade waste, to the extent that the company which Mogul has chosen to be involved, should it happen, is one with which North Tipperary County Council will not deal. This proposal has been rejected not only by the community but also by the council, which has effectively rubbished the plan. In effect, everyone, including the EPA and SRK, has a real difficulty with the proposal. I do not see how it can be proceeded with.

The next question is that of where an acceptable proposal might originate. I remind committee members that I have always got an assurance from the Department that nothing will be agreed or proceeded with without the agreement of the community. I asked Mr. Daly where the dialogue with Mogul Ireland now stands and he said it was completed. I am not sure how we can proceed today except by way of the update Mr. Daly has given us. I look forward to the Minister's decision and reiterate that the latest proposal on the table falls far short of an acceptable solution.

I do not need to remind anyone of the backdrop with which we are dealing. Since the 1980s, the community has lived with a serious pollution problem at the heart of which lies not only the responsibility of the company — because not all the mine sites are the responsibility of Mogul Ireland — but also an accountability issue. Who is accountable? Who is responsible for ensuring that this area will be rehabilitated? We need further progress on this, although I acknowledge the progress already made.

We have arrived at the point where a report is on the Minister's desk and the issue is now a political call. We need to give the Minister time to make that call. If possible, I ask that the officials return and that we have the discussion I hoped we would have today in terms of how we are to move towards implementation. Perhaps Mr. Daly could expand a little on his statement that the dialogue with Mogul Ireland is completed. Presumably the technical dialogue is completed but there seems to be some legal framework uncompleted.

Chairman

Mr. Daly may respond when other members have asked their questions.

Deputy Hoctor

I thank the committee for the opportunity to address the staff of the Department and, in particular, the project team which has worked on this pressing matter relating to Gortmore and Silvermines in Nenagh, which are both in my constituency.

I formally thank Mr. Michael Daly, Mr. Michael Enright, Ms Loreto Farrell, Ms Rosemarie Gorman, Mr. Michael Guilfoyle and all the staff who have been dealing with the local community, in particular, in respect of this issue. Their co-operation with the community and with Oireachtas Members has been exceptional and I thank them for the generous amount of time they have devoted to this matter.

The issue is nevertheless very pressing. I spoke to the Minister this morning and he assured me that he has the report under serious consideration. He asked for time to digest and reread it and to consider the recommendations of the various parties, including the local action group. He sees clearly the merits of all the contributions but while he recognises the seriousness of the matter, he has also stressed the urgency with which it must be dealt. I am encouraged by that and I hope the people at Silvermines will also take courage. The Minister has assured me he will act on the matter and that we will not have to wait too long for his decision.

It is clear that today's meeting is premature but I welcome the Department officials. The Minister has also assured me that he will meet the residents of the Gortmore action group prior to making his decision and we welcome that. He will also have to refer back to some of the other contributors to the report before his final decision is made.

Are the officials satisfied that all the strands of the interested parties have been drawn together in the report and that everything has been included which must be made known to the Minister before his decision is made? Great emphasis has been placed on the Silvermines tailings pond. I want to clarify that when discussing this issue, we are talking about the entire Silvermines mining waste area, which includes Garryard.

Deputy Lowry

I thank the Department for the interest and involvement it has had in attempts to find a resolution to this long-standing problem which dates back 20 years. Can the officials indicate what timescale is involved in the Minister's consideration of the report? When is it anticipated that he will be a position to fulfil the commitment he has given to visit the site and meet the local committee?

There is great anxiety, fear and concern within the local community. Its members see this as a defining moment. They accept that progress has been made but they are also concerned that whatever process is involved, it must be clearly defined and technically sound and that the timescale set out in the process must be acceptable and fully adhered to. When the process is completed, the community hopes it will have a resolution which is safe and which will see us into the future. There is a feeling within the local community — I do not say it is justified — that the plan put forward by Mogul is finding acceptance at official level. The proposal has been professionally analysed and assessed and been found unacceptable. I hope that when the Minister makes a decision on the report, it will point the way forward and be acceptable to all concerned.

Senator Coonan

I welcome the officials and thank them for coming along. It has been a very disappointing afternoon, and I am sure that the people of Silvermines will also be very disappointed at the outcome of today's meeting. We seem not to have advanced our case to any great degree. I am also concerned about a remark made by Mr. Daly, when he seemed to be sounding a warning to us by saying that Mogul of Ireland is not a very active company and has very limited assets. It would strike terror into the hearts of the people of Silvermines if that were official thinking.

Not only is Mogul involved in this, the Department, the Government and the State have a clear responsibility in this matter. It is time they exercised that since this has gone on long enough and people have tolerated it for too long. I am concerned by those remarks and wonder whether Mr. Daly is softening us up for a harder landing than we anticipated. The beauty of coming last or second-last is that many of the issues have been addressed and I do not want to go through them again at the meeting. However, I am concerned and would like to know whether Mr. Daly has any idea or can give any indication regarding when the Minister will make his decision.

Given that it has been pointed out that the current proposals are most inadequate, is there a plan B? There seems to be no shortage of such plans, but an opportunity will arise soon, although perhaps not soon enough for the people of Silvermines, in that, with the motorway construction, what is needed in that area is an adequate covering of topsoil — not organic material but something that will last them the course of time and prevent any spread of substances that may damage the local community or environment. That opportunity should not be missed and the Department should be planning for such a situation. In summary, is there another plan if this one is not acceptable to the community, and how soon can we get something positive on this? It must be another heart-breaking day for the community in Silvermines.

Deputy Durkan

I support those who have made their case. It grows from their concerns which arise from those of the local community. Especially where health and safety issues arise nowadays, due regard must be had to their importance and the likely implications of inaction. The Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government and the Environmental Protection Agency have considerable responsibility regarding what happens from here on in. What happened in the past when different attitudes prevailed is one thing, but what happens in the future is different and actions and decisions are taken against the backdrop of current thinking on the protection of the environment, health and safety standards and so on. I ask for that be borne in mind.

Chairman

Mr. Daly and Mr. Enright may share the answers if they wish.

Mr. Daly

I will start with Senator O'Meara's question on whether the dialogue with Mogul of Ireland has been completed. It has concluded at this stage, subject to the Minister's decision which he will make in that context. For Senator Coonan, I mentioned that the company was really a paper company rather than one rich in assets. I was trying to put it in its context since at one time it was believed that the use of compost by the company might provide a flow of income so that it might proceed with some of those works. However, subsequent events regarding uses and types of compost proposed mean that they are no longer a viable option and have disappeared. That brings the company's lack of resources back up the agenda. The sole mention was in that context rather than any warning.

Deputy Hoctor spoke of how it might be proceeded with. As I said, the Minister is considering it and I cannot say how long the timeframe will be on this. However, he is treating it as a high priority so one would hope to see progress on it over the coming months. I hope to see a great deal of action in April but it might run into May. I believe that we will see most of it over the next few months.

Deputy Hoctor also asked whether all the Silvermines issues would be dealt with. All are being addressed, including clause K. The tailings pond at Gortmore will probably receive disproportionate attention. Garryard is probably even more complex and long-term but we are addressing all the issues, so the full agenda of items is being dealt with. The Deputy can rest assured of that. There may be orders of priority and Gortmore may be first since the complexity of addressing Garryard will probably take a great deal longer regarding contents, permits and so on.

I cannot give any concrete timescales but I expect us to have a substantial amount of this concluded by the end of May. As for when the Minister might be able to visit the site and meet the local committee, I cannot say anything on that. As Deputy Hoctor said, he said that he would visit before concluding his decisions.

Deputy Hoctor

The Minister said that he would meet the residents. We do not have a commitment from him that he will meet them on the site. He may not have to do so.

Mr. Daly

Yes, they could meet him here.

Deputy Hoctor

He will meet the residents.

Chairman

Are there any other answers from Mr. Enright or Mr. Daly?

Mr. Daly

There was the issue of a plan B. Our report addresses plan B and plan C. There are proposals and recommendations. It is a quite comprehensive report and members will have the opportunity to see it in due course and perhaps discuss it with us. There is a way forward and there are clear-cut recommendations in the plan. Members can rest assured that it is not a "What if?" scenario; there are recommendations.

Chairman

Thank you. This committee visited Gortmore in January 2004, and we are deeply concerned at the delay in bringing forward final solutions and actions that affect the environment of the tailings pond in Gortmore and surrounding areas. I believe I speak for all members when I urge a speedy resolution of those hazards in Tipperary. I advise the witnesses that after our committee's visit to the Rio Tinto mine in New South Wales, Australia, in September, we put forward several proposals and solutions to those dealing with the tailings pond. We acknowledge officials' responses and I hope that they found them helpful in their deliberations and their proposed solutions.

Mr. Daly

Yes.

Chairman

We must get a message to Ireland on Sunday that we did much work in Australia which was beneficial to the Oireachtas and to the Department. I thank Mr. Daly and his officials for appearing at such short notice. We would be grateful if he could advise the committee on any developments regarding these matters.

The joint committee adjourned at 4 p.m. sine die.