Joint Committee on Education, Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science debate -
Wednesday, 12 Oct 2022

Education Issues: Engagement with the Minister for Education

Chairman

I welcome the Minister for Education, Deputy Norma Foley, and her officials. The Minister is before the committee to discuss: the Cork Life Centre and the Review of Out-of-School Education Provision report; progress made in implementing the recommendations in the joint committee reports entitled, School Bullying and the Impact on Mental Health, and Leaving Certificate Reform: The need for a new Senior Cycle; teaching provision to include teacher shortages, Teaching Council registration, teacher diversity and primary teachers' fluency in Irish; and proposals to expand the physical and digital library services in schools.

The format will be that I will invite the Minister to make a brief opening statement which will be followed by questions from members of the committee. Each member has a six-minute slot to ask questions and for the Minister to respond. As the Minister is probably aware, the committee will publish the opening statement on its website following the meeting. I want to remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise, or make charges against a person outside the House or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Minister for Education (Deputy Norma Foley)

I want to thank the committee for inviting me to attend. As we meet here I am deeply conscious, as I know the committee members are, of the recent terrible tragedy in Donegal. Words cannot describe the immensity of the loss that has been felt, and will continue to be felt, by the community of Creeslough and by all those who have lost a family member or a loved one. These are incredibly difficult days for those affected and they remain in our thoughts and in our hearts. As the Minister for Education, I would like to offer my sympathy to all the families who have lost a loved one and the school communities who are mourning the loss of a much loved pupil.

I would also like to acknowledge the role which every school in the area has played in supporting their students, families and staff through this event, which none of them could ever have envisaged. Schools are central to their communities and I know that each one of these schools has shown remarkable strength, compassion and support for their school communities. I thank them for all they have done, all they are doing and all they will do in the days, months and, indeed, years ahead. I know that the Chair and committee members will join with me in sending solidarity and support.

The committee has indicated that it would like to discuss a range of issues in today's session, each of which I will briefly address. In regard to the senior cycle redevelopment, the committee will be aware that at the end of March, I announced an ambitious programme for the reimagined senior cycle which has the best interests of students at its core. In the education system, we must always serve the interests of the students. In respect of the senior cycle, it is evident that while the present system has many advantages, there is a clear need for change. At the most basic level, the current leaving certificate does not recognise, develop or, indeed, celebrate the very diverse talents that our students have.

As the committee is undoubtedly aware, a very significant body of work was undertaken over the course of four years by the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment in conjunction with bodies such as the OECD and the education stakeholders. This has very much informed the programme of reform which is now under way. I want to thank the committee for its valuable and wide-ranging report in respect of the senior cycle which, indeed, aligns with the work that has commenced in the Department.

I want to acknowledge the excellent work of the Cork Life Centre and the dedication of the director and his team in providing a vital pathway for young people who have encountered difficulties completing mainstream education. I visited the centre in June and had the privilege of meeting with staff, students and parents. I saw all of their invaluable work first hand.

The review of out-of-school education provision has now moved to a working group, chaired by former City of Dublin ETB CEO, Jacinta Stewart. This working group will work with stakeholders to develop a sustainable pathway for the alternative education sector, one which reflects the value and importance of the sector. The level of funding currently provided to Cork Life Centre will continue until such time as the recommendations of the report are implemented.

The committee has also flagged the issue of bullying in schools. I agree that further work is needed in the area of bullying prevention and this is why I have established a steering committee to review the 2013 action plan on bullying. The review is taking account of the significant developments and relevant research since the current action plan was published in 2013. I have been advised that the steering committee aims to have its work completed by the end of November and I look forward to receiving its recommendations.

Regarding teacher supply, a number of important actions have been taken including more than 3,400 primary and post-primary newly qualified teachers this year and the expansion of the primary substitution teacher supply panels. One hundred and seventy teachers are expected to graduate from upskilling programmes in Spanish, maths and physics this year. It is expected that more than 300 teachers will graduate in 2023 and third and fourth year students can now register with the Teaching Council of Ireland. Job sharing and career break arrangements have been relaxed for the current school year and the Department is in ongoing engagement with school management bodies on possible further measures.

The Department has undertaken numerous initiatives to make teaching attainable to those from diverse backgrounds. In particular, the Teaching Transforms campaign is promoting the teaching profession using radio, video and social media and is supported by a dedicated web page. The campaign highlights the importance of diversity in the classroom and it has featured student teachers from backgrounds that are traditionally under-represented in teaching.

In respect of school libraries, the €20 million grant funding provided earlier this year gives access to more and better reading opportunities for children and young adults across all school-going ages and reading abilities. In order to assist schools in spending their grant funding, the Department has collaborated with the public library service to provide specific, tailored support measures and resources. The development of a new literacy, numeracy and digital strategy is under way. This seeks to further enhance the literacy and numeracy skills of our learners. The development is underpinned by extensive research and consultation. The consultation will include engagement with relevant stakeholders, including Libraries Ireland, the Library Association of Ireland and JCSP libraries. The new strategy will be published in early 2023.

As I said at the outset, significant work is being done right across the Department and the school sector generally. At budget time, I was proud to have secured ground-breaking investments in our education system, furthering the work of recent years in reducing class sizes, reducing costs for families, tackling disadvantage and supporting the achievement of all our students. The introduction of a new scheme to provide free books for all students in primary school has been a priority of mine since taking office and signifies a new chapter in Irish primary education.

This permanent initiative, benefiting more than 540,000 students, will greatly reduce the burden on families and reflects the importance the Government places on education for all children. For the third consecutive year, I have lowered the staffing schedule for schools, bringing it to an historic low of 23:1 in primary schools. Since 2021, we have also invested in an enhanced summer programme. I am delighted to have secured a further €20 million in funding to maintain the availability of this programme for all our schools. It has been enormously valuable to students and continues to grow in popularity and in impact. The Minister of State, Deputy Madigan, and I are intent on ensuring that it is further developed. The progress we are making for all students and right across the sector will continue into 2023 and beyond.

Chairman

The first member to speak is Deputy Cathal Crowe. He will be followed by Senator Dolan. If Senator Dolan is not here, we will move to Deputy Conway-Walsh. Deputy Crowe has six minutes.

Deputy Cathal Crowe

I welcome the Minister and her team. I congratulate her on the free books scheme. For me, it was one of the highlights of budget 2023.

I will bring up a few issues with regard to what the Minister mentioned. The Minister is looking at senior cycle redevelopment, which is positive. However, what we are all being asked, including by many of my past pupils, is whether there is any indicative date for the junior certificate results yet. I know a lot of this is beyond our control but is there any indicative date yet as to when they might be out?

Deputy Norma Foley

With regard to the junior cycle, it should be noted that we had two sittings of the leaving certificate this year. That was important and the right thing to do. We also had to provide students with an opportunity to appeal results where they wished to do so, as we do every year. As a result of a landmark legal ruling some years ago, the traditional format whereby junior cycle results were released prior to appeals decisions had to be changed, which it was in 2019. In 2019, the results came out sometime in October. This year, in light of the two sittings and the challenges associated with attracting sufficient numbers of correctors, the State Examinations Commission advised that it would not be in a position to give a more definitive time frame with regard to junior cycle results until the appeals were out of the way and had been catered for. The results of those appeals issued last Friday. The State Examinations Commission has advised that, following its consideration and analysis of what it has available to it this week, a formal announcement will be made next week. I acknowledge the frustration of students. I know they are eager to get their results. Unprecedented opportunities were provided this year. The State Examinations Commission is working hard on this and will make a definitive date available next week.

Deputy Cathal Crowe

We will have a definitive date next week. That is positive news. The students want to see the fruits of their labour. They want to celebrate their results. I have had a lot of contact from students who have gone straight into fifth year and who need to decide whether to sit certain subjects at higher or ordinary level. That will be determined by how they got on in the junior certificate.

With regard to how the Minister is looking at overhauling senior cycle, it would also be really worthwhile to look at junior certificate redevelopment. The one thing that has always led to a higher benchmark being reached in the languages is the oral examinations, particularly at leaving certificate. It brings up the results in Irish and French. Would the Minister consider bringing in such an examination at junior certificate level? It would lift the standard a little bit.

Deputy Norma Foley

I thank the Deputy. As he will be aware, an almost entirely new junior cycle curriculum has been made available. Only recently, the entire cohort of subjects at junior cycle level was provided for. There is a body of work to be done in reviewing how the junior cycle is working. That review is ongoing. We will await its outcome.

Deputy Cathal Crowe

Teaching Transforms, the initiative to bring people from more diverse backgrounds into the teaching profession, is fantastic and I fully support it. What are the Minister's views as to how this can be congruent with keeping standards in Irish language teaching up to scratch? Perhaps there is an opportunity here. When I graduated from Mary Immaculate College, we had 12 subjects to teach. I can still rattle them off: maths, English, Irish, history, geography, science, drama, music, PE, art, SPHE and religion. Every month, we had to tick those boxes in the cuntas míosúil. It is a hell of a workload for any teacher to get his or her head around. Whether we like it or not, we end up specialising in a few subjects and really hone our skills in those areas. Is there scope to do as other countries have and introduce subject-specific teachers in certain areas? These would teach the general curriculum but also specialise in science, technology, engineering and mathematics , STEM, the Irish language, the arts or something like that. This could give the Irish language a big lift.

Deputy Norma Foley

The Deputy is suggesting introducing specialist teachers at primary school level.

Deputy Cathal Crowe

I am saying it is worth considering. I say this as someone who went through this system for 16 years. It may be of particular use in the context of languages. I am proposing that it be considered.

Deputy Norma Foley

The Deputy is quite correct to acknowledge the great richness provided for in our primary schools and the excellence of the staff providing education. The policy statement on initial teacher training will be published before the end of the year. We are consistently looking at ways to continue to support teachers in delivery. The Deputy made specific reference to languages and how best to deliver language education. This involves upskilling, continuing professional development and the primary curriculum framework to be published in 2023. All of the different reviews and publications give us scope to look at everything. There is a great richness in the primary school system.

Deputy Cathal Crowe

There is.

Deputy Norma Foley

I congratulate those in the primary school system who offer a great diversity of expertise across a wide variety of areas.

Deputy Cathal Crowe

It is great that students in their third and fourth year at teacher training college can now register with the Teaching Council. In their five years of training, gardaí go on the beat. In the same way, nurses go on the wards and teachers go on teaching practice. The teaching practice stint could be a lot longer. It could involve not just shadowing a teacher in the classroom environment but being let off for a full term at the end. This would really help teachers. The best way to learn is to be on your feet, teaching a class of kids with the chalkboard or whiteboard behind you. That is where you learn best. It would be great if the colleges of education, which already provide for teaching practice, could elongate the final placement and allow students to teach the real curriculum day to day, rather than always teaching to a fixed lesson plan. That would also alleviate some of the current staffing challenges.

Deputy Norma Foley

Some initial teacher education programmes facilitate that type of approach. I acknowledge that. I also acknowledge the benefit of practical experience in the classroom, which I know from my own experience. We have seen the manner in which students have come on board with us, particularly during the Covid pandemic. I further acknowledge our summer provision programme, in the delivery of which many young students play an intrinsic part. We are moving towards providing the maximum opportunity for children to avail of the expertise of trainee staff who are coming on board. There are opportunities in this area.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

I will ask the Minister a number of questions but they are all on the same issue. It is an issue I have been raising since she took office so I am glad to have an opportunity to discuss it with her here today. It relates to teacher training and has not received the attention it deserves. The Minister stated that 3,400 primary and post-primary teachers will qualify this year. Is that the total number from public colleges only or the overall total including private-sector colleges? That is my first question. Every year, a cap is placed on the number of primary teachers public universities and colleges can train. Will the Minister confirm whether that cap is 1,000 for undergraduates and 200 for master's degree students? The total number of places for master's degrees in primary teaching in public universities is capped at 200. The Minister justifies this on the grounds that it allows for supply to be controlled yet four times as many places as this are offered by just one private college. Does the Minister have any influence over the numbers entering private colleges? How can she claim to control supply if she does not? There can be strategic reasons for limiting the number of teachers trained but simply allowing the private sector to take over training primary teachers does not serve the public interest. Since this cap was introduced in 2014, on average, more than one in three new primary teachers has come from the private market.

I cannot understand why successive Governments have maintained these caps when there is clearly a need and a demand, as we often discuss here. Alarmingly, the only other course that is capped in the same way is nursing. Just this year, the same private college has moved into that space and begun providing undergraduate nursing courses for those who can afford to pay €8,000 a year. The crux of the problem here is that it relates to whether a student can afford to be a teacher or a nurse, given the only place students can access is a private college. Whether by mistake or design, the cap on primary teacher training has allowed for the steady transfer of the training of primary school teachers from the public to the private sector, and it is privatisation by stealth. Moreover, the public colleges are champing at the bit to deliver the in-demand courses but they are unable to do that.

My understanding is that the Minister can set the intake cap in November for the following academic year, but has she yet set the annual intake for the next academic year? Each student, regardless of the college attended, represents a future primary school teacher and is important to our education system and our workforce. Private colleges can provide a very good service and are run by dedicated staff but, as I said, all students in the private sector have to pay about €6,000 in additional fees. Students who meet the academic criteria should have the right to attend college if they wish and our public institutes should have the right to offer those courses. Will the Minister abolish the cap and allow all students who would prefer to do so to study at a publicly owned college?

Deputy Norma Foley

We have run significant and successful campaigns every year to promote teaching as a preferred career. In fact, we have seen year-on-year increases in the number of applicants via the Central Applications Office, CAO, and that is a positive. At post-primary level, there has been an increase of almost 17%, with an increase of just short of 10% across the board.

I do not have any control over private colleges, as the Deputy will appreciate. That is a private enterprise-----

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

How can the Minister control supply in that case? If the intention is to control the supply but if she cannot control the supply from private colleges, how can she do that?

There are specific questions regarding the report. This year, of the 3,400 teachers, how many have come from public colleges and how many from the private sector?

Deputy Norma Foley

I do not have the breakdown of that. It is a rounded number of 3,400. I can get the figure for the Deputy.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

Am I correct about the cap of 1,000 for undergraduates and 2,000 for master's degree students?

Deputy Norma Foley

I will have to check that for the Deputy. They are specialised questions. Of the 3,400 we have available, in light of the increased uptake we see year on year via the CAO, we are satisfied that we have sufficiency. Furthermore, the Deputy will be aware that for primary schools, the demographics are falling year on year. As for influence over the private sector, that is the same as the private sector in any field for which we might make provision.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

I understand that. My point is that if 3,400 is the number and if many people who are suitably qualified cannot get the points that would enable them to become teachers, the price, on top of all the other costs, is going to be a barrier. The only way they can train to be a teacher is by taking a private course. I am concerned about the commodification of education, full stop, and about it being used as a commodity, but students who would make very good teachers cannot train because they might not be able to afford a private course. Will the Minister examine that?

Deputy Norma Foley

There is a clear teacher supply action plan within the Department. That plan involves engagement with a variety of partners and educational stakeholders, not least in respect of demand and supply. The higher education institutions, HEIs, are involved in that action plan. We take great confidence from the fact that, via the CAO, insofar as teaching is a first option, we have seen an increase in the number of applications into the teaching world, and that is a positive. I appreciate where the Deputy is coming from, but it is not possible for us to control private providers across any spectrum. That is the nature of the private sector.

Chairman

To be fair to all members, I must move on to Deputy O'Callaghan. I will allow more time later for Deputy Conway-Walsh to get to the bottom of that issue.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

I thank the Minister and her officials for coming before the committee and engaging on a variety of issues we requested. The first issue I raise relates to the leaving certificate reform that was announced last March, which she referred to in her opening statement. She will be aware that one of the proposals is that leaving certificate paper one for Irish and English will be dealt with at the end of fifth year. Some recognition has been given to the idea this could disadvantage boys because of the perceived failure of boys to mature as fast as girls when they are at the age of 16 or 17 and coming into taking their leaving certificate. Is that an issue on which the Minister has engaged? Is she concerned about it or does she think sitting these papers at the end of fifth year will not disadvantage any group?

Deputy Norma Foley

One of the key factors in senior cycle reform has come from extensive engagement with many partners in education and specific voices in education, most especially those of students themselves, and they have been clear about the need to spread the assessment load. They have been very articulate in that respect. Equally, many of the senior cycle programmes, such as the leaving certificate applied programme, currently have assessment at the end of fifth year. This gives students the opportunity to feel that not all of their achievement will depend on only one day and one moment in time in the month of June. Moreover, internationally, there are many examples of exams being taken over a two-year stage and that is right and proper.

It is for all these reasons and more that we will move ahead with holding the paper one exams at the end of fifth year. Doing so is very much student centred and seeks to ensure that well-being, which is a significant consideration for this committee, will be embedded into the experience of students and give them the opportunity to showcase their best talents.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

Does the Minister have concerns that sometimes preparation for paper one can be assisted by preparation for paper two and that, potentially, that would be missing under this proposed reform? She may not have concerns about this and I suppose she cannot please every aspect, but she might confirm that that is not preventing her from proceeding with her reform.

Deputy Norma Foley

We have an ambitious programme of reform that, as I said, is centred on student well-being. In the main, anybody looking at this will say affording students an opportunity to spread the assessment load over two years will benefit them. As I said, this is already embedded in the leaving certificate applied and it is very much an opportunity for students to avoid feeling all of the burden of responsibility at a single moment in June, so I am very confident about it.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

The second issue I raise, on which I commend the Minister, relates to the decision she led on, and that the Government made, to provide free books for all students in primary school. Am I correct in stating that will, we hope, kick in next September?

Deputy Norma Foley

Yes.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

In practical terms, how will this operate? Will the child just be given the books at the beginning of the national school year or will the parents have to purchase them and then be reimbursed? How will the scheme operate in practice?

Deputy Norma Foley

This scheme involves a significant investment and will benefit more than 540,000 students. The scheme will take a burden away from parents and guardians. It also will ensure that no student is limited by an absence of textbooks. We have between now and next September to work this through this scheme. It was always my preference that the scheme would be introduced in schools and worked through with the partners in education, thus providing an opportunity for all of the expertise that is already in place to be availed of. For example, we have a significant book rental scheme in place at primary level that is availed of by more than 97% of schools. There is considerable expertise already in schools. This scheme will be worked through with schools. The scheme is a groundbreaking move in education, as well as a positive move for students and their families.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

Will there be an ability to recycle books? Sometimes books can be in very condition after a year.

Deputy Norma Foley

Yes.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

I am not asking the Minister to answer my question specifically.

Deputy Norma Foley

Yes.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

I hope it will be possible to recycle books.

Deputy Norma Foley

Yes, there will be every opportunity. The system that will be introduced will be on the back of significant engagement with stakeholders such as schools, parents, publishers and retailers, so everyone within that space. That engagement will begin immediately.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

I thank the Minister.

Chairman

The next speaker is Deputy Ó Laoghaire.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

I believe Senator Mullen is ahead of me.

Chairman

No. Senator Mullen has very generously given way. The Deputy will be followed by Senator Flynn.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

I had my homework done for once. My first question seeks to build on what was said by Deputy O'Callaghan. I agree in principle with the idea of students being assessed in fifth yea,r but some reservations have been expressed about the modality of the approach that has been taken regarding paper 1.

There is a commitment in the programme for Government to provide a comprehensive policy for the Irish language from pre-primary level to teacher education for all schools. Where does that policy stand and how is it being progressed?

Deputy Norma Foley

Indeed, there is. We are seeing significant supports being made available to promote the Irish language. Is the Deputy specifically referring to paper 1 being moved?

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

Where does the approach that has been taken to paper 1 fit with the commitment to draft a comprehensive policy that covers early years to third level? What is the Minister doing about the comprehensive policy and when will we see it?

Deputy Norma Foley

There is a comprehensive policy being worked on in terms of a strategy for teaching Irish in schools outside of Gaeltachts. This will complement the teaching of the Irish language, and how it is being provided for within the Gaeltachts. There is a substantial body of work being done there.

On the question of how does the senior cycle fit into the general strategy, as I have said previously, the entire impetus for senior cycle is for it to be relevant to the students, and student well-being is imbedded.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

I have several questions and I must interrupt the Minister. It seems that no real progress has been made with providing a comprehensive strategy that unites all strands. Has progress been made?

Deputy Norma Foley

There is a public consultation stream that will come on stream in the next three or four weeks.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

That is a much more satisfactory answer.

Deputy Norma Foley

There is already a body of work under way.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

Will there be a public consultation on the comprehensive all-inclusive strategy within the next month?

Deputy Norma Foley

On the whole Gaeltacht policy, yes.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

Very good.

Deputy Norma Foley

Yes.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

I want to discuss the Cork Life Centre. Did the Department was approached by the centre in the context of correcting some statistics contained in the review that were believed to be erroneous? Is it true that the Department accepted the centre's view and has corrected those statistics in the report?

Deputy Norma Foley

The life centre requested some clarifications about what was published originally. The Department was happy to take on board the clarifications that the centre requested and they have subsequently been published.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

Does that include the number of people who were in a position to sit the leaving certificate?

Deputy Norma Foley

Yes. It is my understanding that the clarifications sought were catered for.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

Am I correct in saying that the conclusions contained in the report were not amended, despite the fact that the evidence upon which they were based was considerably different?

Deputy Norma Foley

The review of the out-of-school education provision was a review of all of the centres and was not unique to the Cork Life Centre. I have met representatives from the Cork Life Centre and I have also taken the opportunity to meet the parents and guardians, the staff and the students. I acknowledge the excellent ongoing work that takes place at the centre. There are other centres as well. This report is not unique to one specific centre; it embraced all centres. Work in that regard is now complete. The implementation group is in place and a chair has been appointed. I am sure that the Deputy is aware of Ms Jacinta Stewart, who is the former CEO of the City of Dublin Education and Training Board. We will work through the review step by step.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

The review has some shortcomings. It is strange to have an out-of-school review that did not take into account Youthreach given that it is the largest element of what we typically associate with being the non-traditional school sector. Is it true that among the out-of-school education providers, which were part of the review, several have full-time teachers working full-time hours?

Deputy Norma Foley

The issue is that centres operate differently. There is no unanimity and no singular overall policy regarding these centres.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

I take the Minister's reply to mean yes.

Deputy Norma Foley

No, there are different circumstances.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

Yes, and that is why there was a review.

Deputy Norma Foley

Yes.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

Am I correct in saying that the staff in the life centre are on co-operation hours?

Deputy Norma Foley

Yes. It is 6,000 co-operation hours.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

Yes.

Deputy Norma Foley

In addition, €177,500 is being provided by the Department. That is a significant increase in funding in the context of what was available in recent years.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

That is welcome. In terms of how we get to where we need to go regarding the life centre and the stability that is required, progress is welcome. However, it is not the final outcome. Can the Minister confirm that co-operation hours are not tied to increments?

Deputy Norma Foley

Please repeat the question. I did not hear it.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

Can a person gather increments toward his or her pension or salary over the course of several years? Can a person's pay increase on an incremental scale while on co-operation hours?

Deputy Norma Foley

The terms and conditions of employment, including salary, are dictated by the environment in which one teaches. The centres, which is how we refer to them, are out-of-school providers. This means that they are not within the general and traditional experience of schooling. I know that the issue raised by the Deputy is one that is particularly important and pertinent to the Cork Life Centre and, indeed, many other centres. It is for this reason that we are undertaking a full review. All of the issues, including terms and conditions, will be looked at as part of the review.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

Very well. That is a key matter. The funding is welcome. Co-operation hours do provide a service. Ultimately, however, anyone teaching in an institution like the centre - and a person may view teaching as a vocation and be very committed to the institution - is entitled to consider what that to which I refer is going to mean for them and their pension in the long term. Institutions like the Cork Life Centre are going to struggle to hold on to staff. That is a fact. We have to crack that issue and we have not done so. I welcome the progress that has been made, but we still have not cracked the problem.

Deputy Norma Foley

It is for that reason we are having a review. We now have an implementation group, a chair has been appointed and there is considerable representation on the group.

Co-operation hours apply in other centres. Traditionally, it has been the case where staff are employed under the terms and conditions that are aligned with the arrangements that are in place but take regard of where the setting of education happens to be. Notwithstanding that, this aspect will form a significant part of the work of the implementation group.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

Yes, I acknowledge that co-operation hours are common across a whole variety of these organisations but, typically, they complement full-time or at least full-time Department-funded staff. That is not what is being done in the life centre at this point in time and the situation is quite different.

Chairman

I thank the Deputy and call Deputy O'Sullivan.

Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan

I welcome the Minister. It will probably not surprise her that I am going to start with the Cork Life Centre. I raised it with her in a Topical Issue debate last week and, along with Deputy Colm Burke, I asked her an oral parliamentary question on it yesterday. I did not catch all of Deputy Ó Laoghaire's contribution. When I started off my teaching journey in 2013 and 2014, I was a part-time teacher without a contract of indefinite duration, CID, without certainty and unable to get a mortgage from a bank or a car loan. While I appreciate this review process and implementation team are working away behind the scenes, all of these reviews take time, unfortunately. As Deputy Ó Laoghaire alluded to, every year spent on this review and on implementation is another year in which Don O'Leary and others in the Cork Life Centre may potentially lose a much-needed maths teacher. If we are honest about it, that teacher might get a better offer from a mainstream school, and that offer would include pension entitlements, increments and all of those other things qualified registered teachers are entitled to. I reiterate the urgency of this matter. I was talking to Mr. O'Leary earlier today and, whether we like it or not, the centre is likely to lose teachers to mainstream settings again next year. As Deputy Ó Laoghaire alluded to, this is a vocation for many in the centre. Many people are giving up the prospect of furthering their own careers because they believe in what the Cork Life Centre does, in its work and in Mr. O'Leary. There is a great atmosphere and team ethos, as the Minister will have experienced when she met those at the centre before the summer. I again stress the urgency involved. I hope this implementation report will be carried out expediently and as quickly as possible. I urge the Minister to ensure it is.

My second point relates to teacher shortages. I have a very specific ask. Last year, a number of steps were eventually taken to ensure schools could get substitute teachers. One such step made a considerable difference for second level schools in particular. This was allowing existing teachers who chose to do so to work in excess of their 22 contracted hours. That facility was probably the single most important step the Minister took last year to ensure cover in second level schools. Before this meeting, I was in contact with the principal of a school I used to work in to see what the lie of the land was within her school. Of a staff of 83 teachers, 27 were absent today with illness with nine of these cases relating to Covid. That is still a fairly significant number, representing more than 10% of staff. This principal spends two or three hours of each day begging people to come in to substitute that morning, the following day or at some other time during the week. These are hours she should be spending running a school, especially when the solution was there last year and is probably still within her staff room. Is the Minister looking into this? Will she reconsider reintroducing those steps, particularly for second level schools, including allowing teachers to work more than 22 hours?

Deputy Norma Foley

With regard to the Cork Life Centre, the key consideration in this review, which relates not only to that centre but to all such centres, is securing their sustainability. That will very much be the focus. The review will cover many of the issues Deputies Ó Laoghaire and O'Sullivan and many others have raised with me at different times. I acknowledge the considerable progress being made in the Cork Life Centre through the €177,500 and 6,000 co-operation hours, which is effectively the same as making 8.5 full-time posts available. We are driving forward with that review and with implementation.

On the teacher supply issue the Deputy referenced, as he himself said, many initiatives were put in place last year. These included enhancing the teacher supply or substitution panels, which we have done again this year. There are also more than 3,400 teachers coming on stream this year along with 1,300 third and fourth year students. We are also taking additional measures with regard to job sharing. The rules in this regard are being relaxed to allow teachers to work the hours that suit them. Rules in respect of career breaks are also being relaxed. The measure the Deputy is especially keen on, which allowed existing teachers working a shorter timetable to make themselves available, is the third and final measure. I am looking at that and will review it to see whether it can be reintroduced. However, we have already made the announcements with regard to career breaks and job sharing. I am currently looking at the final measure.

Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan

It is encouraging that the Minister is looking at it at the very least but, as I said, that is one school, the first I rang today. There are seven schools in which I used to teach and I guarantee the picture would be very similar in each. There are 10% of teachers absent due to Covid in one particular school. There were also many other absences. When the answer is within the four walls of the staff room, we need to get on with it and make that decision. I appreciate the Minister looking at it. I imagine that, as we go further into the year, the call and clamour for it will grow.

I have a parting comment, rather than a question, on the Cork Life Centre. I fully acknowledge the difficulty of the task because there are so many of these institutions and centres throughout the country and, if we are honest about it, they are all different. However, the Minister knows why the situation in the centre is so pressing. I do not want to raise it here but there is an issue and time is pertinent. As I have said, I hope it can be done as expeditiously as possible.

Senator Eileen Flynn

I know Deputies have already raised the issue of the Cork Life Centre but I have one question and would appreciate an answer. What is the commitment of the Minister and Department to the centre? We have seen the Ombudsman's report on the importance of the education centre and we have listened to the views of young people. That is my question on the Cork Life Centre.

My other question is on teacher diversity. Of course, we have got better over the years but how do we encourage children from marginalised communities, including disabled people and Traveller young people, to go into teaching as a profession? What special measures are being put in place?

Has the Department of Education considered this committee's recommendation with regard to the Barnardos Friendship Group and the Roots of Empathy programme in primary schools? Has any more consideration been given to that? As someone from the Traveller community, I know the real issues on the ground that are impacting on young Traveller children and children from ethnic minority groups when it comes to bullying and mental health. We are aware that €5 million was drawn down. That is a step in the right direction with regard to counselling and supports in primary schools. Is this only for some of our primary schools or will it be for all of our schools? Is it targeted at the most vulnerable children in society? We have to be very realistic and acknowledge that you are more likely to face bullying if you are overweight, from the Traveller community, a black or brown person or a refugee. It is really important we look at those special measures within our schools. I have asked some direct questions and would appreciate it if I could get some direct answers.

Deputy Norma Foley

I will be clear on the commitment of the Department to the Cork Life Centre.

There is a very clear and obvious commitment by the Department. Again, there is significant funding of €177,500 going from the Department directly to Cork Life Centre and 6,000 co-operation hours between ourselves and the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science, which in turn is leading to 8.5 full-time staff as well. I had the opportunity to meet representatives from the Cork Life Centre and was very impressed by the work they, and indeed all of the other centres, do. I absolutely recognise there must be opportunities for different types of models of education provision, and it is for that reason the review of out-of-school education provision is so important. We are looking to find a mechanism going forward to protect the sustainability of these centres. That work is ongoing and I assure the committee there is an absolute commitment from the Department to ensure sustainability of this type of education provision will be secured going forward.

In terms of diversity and teacher diversity, the Department of Education has undertaken numerous initiatives to make teaching attainable for people from a variety of diverse backgrounds. Increasing diversity in initial teacher education was a key focus of the third national access plan. As part of the plan, funding in excess of €5.4 million was made available through the programme for the access to higher education, PATH, programme which supports access. Equally, the Department of Education continues to support the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science which recently announced the fourth national access plan last August or September, and there is the teaching transforms campaign which promotes the teaching profession. I understand and see the great work being done and the importance being placed on students being able to identify with those who stand in front of them in a classroom, specifically in terms of Roots of Empathy. I acknowledge the work of the current steering group where a significant body of work is being led by Dr. Noel Purdy of Stranmillis University College in Antrim. It is an entire review of the 2013 action plan on bullying for our schools. As part of that there has been engagement with many different providers, including Barnardos, whose representatives made presentations to the anti-bullying steering committee. There has been very specific engagement and consultation as well.

Senator Eileen Flynn

Is this with the officials from the Department of Education?

Deputy Norma Foley

Yes, led by Dr. Noel Purdy and the steering group. There has been specific engagement with children and young people from all different backgrounds, including very specifically children from Traveller and Roma backgrounds. These engagements are feeding into the process of the steering group and an impressive body of work has already been done. This committee has fed very proactively into this body of work through the anti-bullying steering group, of which Ms Maria Joyce from the National Traveller Women's Forum is also a member. I am very keen this body of work will be inclusive of all children and all backgrounds and the publication of the final report is imminent in the not-too-distant future.

Senator Malcolm Byrne

I thank the Minister for her comprehensive presentation and for coming before the committee. The very significant and welcome changes that happened in the budget should be acknowledged. I know colleagues have talked about the free school books initiative and some of the investment in special education needs to acknowledged, but something we do not talk about enough, because it has been banged on about enough around this table, is the reduction in the pupil-teacher ratio at primary level to the lowest level ever. This needs to be recognised.

One of the other areas the Minster looked to address was around school buses. She came in for some unfair criticism from this committee on a previous occasion. Will the Minister give committee members an update on the planned review of the school transport scheme and where the overall review of the scheme is at? More people have obviously taken up bus tickets this year than ever before, but we would like to be in a situation where we can guarantee them to every student.

I support the Minister on the leaving certificate reform initiative and the fact that there is a student representative on the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment, NCCA, shows how her approach has been student-centred. Will the Minister provide an update on the roll-out of the two new subjects? Both climate and sustainability and also theatre, drama and film studies, are very welcome subjects.

Reflecting on Deputy Cathal Crowe's question about specialisations in primary school with regard to teaching, one of the areas he did not mention was the modern language initiative which was pulled back a number of years ago. Is there any intention in future of looking at rolling out modern European languages at primary school level?

Deputy Norma Foley

The school transport review is a significant and important body of work. Nobody appreciates it more than me, coming from an area that is very dependent on the access provided by school transport. The review is a body of work that has been comprehensive in terms of its consultation. There have been thousands of engagements with students, parents, guardians, those using the service and, probably even more important, those not using the service. There have been engagements with providers, those in the general community and those who have an expertise in the area. It is a significant body of work, and we are moving apace with it and looking to complete it as quickly as possible. I will be honest and say it has been impacted by some of the issues faced within the Department and in wider society, whether those be Covid-19 or the particular challenges at present in terms of securing places and transport for Ukrainian families. Everything impacts on everything else but it is my absolute determination that we will move as quickly as we can with the publication of that report.

In terms of the leaving certificate subjects specifically, significant work has already been achieved on the two subjects, which are drama, film and theatre studies, which I know is very close to the Senator's heart, and, equally close, the climate action sustainable development. The background papers have been prepared. I am a firm believer in the importance of the public consultation that is ongoing at the minute and which will close at the end of this month. The subject development group has already been convened and the meetings have commenced. There is a significant body of work on those subjects.

Deputy Malcolm Byrne

Is it still planned that the pilot projects will be ready to roll out in 2024?

Deputy Norma Foley

Yes, absolutely, as part of our network schools. On modern languages, we had a very successful roll-out of the modern language sampler in our primary schools last year, which has proved very positive and attractive to schools, and a large number of schools, in excess of 700, if I recall correctly, sought to take it up. The beauty of it is that there was a whole diversity of languages used, with up to 17 different languages being provided for in those schools. I am intent on ensuring this will be progressed further, and if it proves itself to be successful as a pilot, we will look to extend it.

Deputy Malcolm Byrne

I thank the Minister. Is it her hope to extend the free books scheme to second level schools if budgetary considerations allow? That will be a matter for others but the scheme is something that would be beneficial.

Deputy Norma Foley

I appreciate that. The €50 million investment to secure it for primary level was a significant investment, but a good one. It is my intention and ambition to embed this at primary school level and then the next obvious step would be to move it to post-primary. It was important to start the scheme at the beginning of the education experience, so we are beginning with primary, but it is my ambition, where at all possible and subject to budgetary constraints, as the Senator put it so well, that we will be able to secure it at post-primary in future budgets.

Deputy Malcolm Byrne

I thank the Minister and I certainly hope everyone around this table would support her in those endeavours.

Senator Aisling Dolan

I welcome the Minister to the committee today. I thank the Minister for her kind words for the families in Donegal at the start of her opening statement. They are very much appreciated.

The Minister will be aware that school transport has been a major issue for me, particularly in the east Galway area. I suppose my question, if the Minister does not mind, and apologies if she has answered it already, is, what is the number of tickets that have been issued to date? Do we have a total number for that?

I have been dealing with the Galway regional manager and there are significant challenges with capacity. It is going out to an internal panel. How will we make it more attractive for those contractors to provide those services? There is €10 million extra in the fuel allowance. Is there anything else around that? Has the Minister any other comments around this?

The Minister has been doing a lot of work. A budget has been allocated, which is appreciated, but even today I am dealing with mothers under immense stress who still have no acknowledgement or communication about the potential timeline for when they may see a ticket under the concessionary side of it.

Chairman

I want to be fair to the Minister. There is a set agenda. School transport is not on it-----

Senator Aisling Dolan

I understand.

Chairman

----- but if the Minister wants to give Senator Dolan a brief reply, I will not stop her.

Senator Aisling Dolan

I took the lead from my colleague beside me.

Chairman

I was going to stop Senator Malcolm Byrne but, as a constituency colleague, he dealt with it easily.

Senator Malcolm Byrne

I was complimenting how the Minister addressed it.

Senator Aisling Dolan

I will request an additional minute now as well. The Minister will be aware that it is an issue that is quite important to me in my area.

In terms of the items in the Minister's opening statement around the senior cycle reform, what does she see for this September? There were a number of initiatives that the Minister took last September.

On the elements here tackling bullying, the Minister mentioned she will be looking at the expert report that is coming in, but also the recommendations of our own committee's report on tackling bullying.

On the number of teachers that have been allocated, it is fantastic to see the reduction of the teacher-pupil ratio at national level.

I also welcome the €20 million fund for the school libraries. On the school books, the Minister mentioned 540,000 students. I wanted to ask whether that is the total number of students at primary school level. It is merely to clarify that is all the students who are receiving that.

I refer to some of the questions that we had here in relation to the State Examinations Commission. It was around the leaving certificate reform, where students would be sitting paper 1 in English at the end of fifth year. There was a little concern around that. The committee here has a recommendation about undertaking some of those assignments across both fifth year and leaving certificate year.

The final question here is in relation to the digital library service. Is it possible for additional schools to join this service or is it at maximum capacity? It would be good to have the Minister's comments on that, if possible.

Deputy Norma Foley

In terms of the school transport, I appreciate the difficulties that this poses for many. In the first instance, it is important to say that the waiving of school transport fees was in respect of those who met the criteria. Everybody knows the criteria now. Perhaps not knowing it in advance, the criteria is 3.2 km from one's nearest primary school and 4.8 km from one's nearest or next nearest post-primary school. Those who met that criteria are being satisfied and provided for.

There has always been an issue of concessionaries. For example, in previous years where there was additional capacity, concessionary tickets were provided for. That is also happening this year. There is a 27% or 28% increase in the number of concessionaries who are gaining tickets this year - an 18% increase in those who were eligible in the first instance.

At this point, 126,000 tickets have been issued. That, at this point, compares to 103,000 tickets last year. Additional funding, as the Senator will be aware, has been secured in the budget where we are now looking to satisfy those who were in receipt of concessionary tickets last year, who applied on time and where there is capacity. We are working through that, notwithstanding that in some areas I will absolutely concede there are difficulties, either in obtaining buses or bus drivers. Some areas are more challenged than others. I appreciate that, from the Senator's point of view as well. Considerable progress has been made in this regard. Those who met the criteria have been successful and there has been a 28% increase in those who were concessionaries who gained a ticket compared to previous years.

In terms of some of the other areas the Senator raised in terms of senior cycle, we are progressing some of the elements that we already see of senior cycle in operation, for example, the leaving certificate vocational programme, LCVP. Heretofore, students had to avail of certain types of subjects very much in the business sphere to be eligible to avail of LCVP. That criterion no longer is provided for. It is open to all students to access it.

Equally, the leaving certificate applied programme and the leaving certificate established, or the traditional leaving certificate programme, stood independent of each other. I can see, and many here will be aware, that it had opportunities to impact negatively on career choices for students. From this year, students who are studying leaving certificate applied had the option of taking, for example, mathematics from the leaving certificate established programme.

Other work I referenced earlier includes the development work that is already in the public consultation around the development of the two new subjects, film, theatre and drama and climate action and business. That is out there for public consultation to conclude at the end of the month.

On the network schools programme, there has been some significant interest from some schools. We are taking the opportunity to promote it to all schools or for there to be a more formal promotion of that for schools that might wish to avail of it.

Of course, we are looking at other elements, also imbedded in senior cycle. Aspects would be the orals, music at Easter time, that is, outside of school time, and a review on how it operated last year with a view to seeing how we can imbed that going forward.

In terms of bullying, I acknowledge the work of Dr. Noel Purdy, as I said initially, who is chairing the steering group. He is of Stranmillis University College, Antrim. I acknowledge that this review of the 2013 action plan is a significant one. I acknowledge the impressive and significant body of work that this committee has done. It is intrinsic to the work of the steering committee. In fact, a presentation was made to the steering committee on all of the work and the issues that this committee identified. Equally, the membership of the steering group is significant. It includes Professor James O'Higgins Norman, who holds the UNESCO chair at DCU.

I do not wish in any way to prejudice the outcome of the steering committee but, for example, one of the key issues that Senator Dolan raised was around the roll-out of the FUSE programme.

Senator Aisling Dolan

Yes, on a national level.

Deputy Norma Foley

That is something that would be very close to my own heart as well.

Senator Aisling Dolan

I thank the Minister. That is a good sign.

Deputy Norma Foley

I know that it is being considered. That is all I can say to the Senator at this point.

There has been considerable consultation as part of the steering group as well. I had the opportunity to attend some of those consultations, particularly with the young people. They were uplifting, informative and inclusive. There were children of all backgrounds: children from a special education background, children with a Traveller or Roma background, and children from mainstream schools. There was the richest of engagement.

I acknowledge that the manner in which the information was provided by the students was expert. There was engagement also with international experts. The work is ongoing. I look forward to its outcome. I acknowledge that the committee's work here is very much intrinsic to it.

In terms of the State Examinations Commission and the leaving certificate reform in paper 1 in terms of English and Irish at the end of fifth year, as I referenced earlier, the singular impetus for that is embedding student well-being into the experience of senior cycle. Students have been exercised and engaged around the topic of spreading the assessment load for them. We already see it operate at leaving certificate applied level where there are opportunities in fifth year. It is for that reason that we are looking at paper 1 being made available to students at the end of fifth year. A body of work in making that operational is under way. It is very much student-centred and student well-being-centred.

Chairman

I must cut the Minister off. We have gone well beyond the six minutes.

Senator Aisling Dolan

I thank the Minister.

Deputy Carol Nolan

I thank the Minister for the briefing. Will she elaborate on the expansion of the primary substitute teacher supply panels? What will be the increase?

On leaving certificate reform, there is concern about the moving of paper 1 to the end of fifth year in both Irish and English. I met representatives of Conradh na Gaeilge in September and there was concern that students may not be fully prepared at the end of fifth year. Many students go to the Gaeltacht during the summer of fifth year and that stands to them when they come to sit both papers 1 and 2 in Irish. I was certainly one of those students a long time ago and I benefited from the time I spent in the Gaeltacht when it came to sitting papers 1 and 2 in sixth year.

How much consultation has the Minister had with teachers and pupils and organisations such as Conradh na Gaeilge in respect of the Irish exam and the change in that regard, and what are her views on the matter?

Deputy Norma Foley

Regarding the primary substitution panels, I think 610 posts have been provided for and 151 panels are in operation at present. As I said throughout the previous two years, where a specific issue is identified in an area in regard to capacity and the need to provide for more, we are open to engagement on that. Some areas, from a geographical point of view, can be more challenging than others but every step of the way over the past two years we have sought to increase the number of both posts and panels. We are open to doing that on an ongoing basis as the need might arise.

On the senior cycle, I do not wish to repeat myself but I think there has been great clarity from all sides regarding the need for senior cycle reform. People have been unequivocal in that regard. One of the singular issues identified by students themselves - at the end of the day, senior cycle reform must be student centred - related to spreading the assessment load. In other jurisdictions, such as New Zealand, or in our leaving certificate applied, there are opportunities for students to experience the spread of assessment load at the end of fifth year. On the specific issues the Deputy raised with regard to Conradh na Gaeilge, my Department and officials meet that organisation on an ongoing basis and will do so specifically in respect of the issues it wishes to highlight in this context.

It is not sustainable for students to feel that everything depends on how they will perform on just one day. The opportunity for them to take a certain portion of the exam at the end of fifth year will lessen the weight placed on them. As I said, we have seen this work well both in other jurisdictions and in some of the other offerings we have at senior cycle. The change is student centred and will allow students to showcase their talents and skills equally over two years, rather than feel the pressure of one exam at the end of sixth year.

Deputy Carol Nolan

My concern is that this could have the unintended consequence of students experiencing a greater level of stress arising from facing assessment over two years if they are now to sit paper 1 in both subjects in fifth year. Students who may want to go to the Gaeltacht in the summer of fifth year will be put at a disadvantage because, obviously, they will not have had time to do their stint in the Gaeltacht, which stands to them when they come to sit paper 1 in the leaving certificate as it stands. I understand the principle and rationale of spreading out the assessment but I am concerned it will have the unintended consequence of stretching the stress associated with assessment over a longer period. Moreover, students will need to be prepared more quickly and that could cause difficulty and challenges for teachers as well as students.

Deputy Norma Foley

Regarding visits to the Gaeltacht and so on, the oral examinations will still take place in sixth year, most likely over the Easter period, as has been the case in recent years. Obviously, they will be supported by any additional trips students might wish to take to the Gaeltacht or by the work they do in school.

I fully accept the Deputy's bona fides and the points she is raising but students have been clear that having to face everything on one day is an extraordinary burden and pressure. Having the opportunity to do it over two years will lessen that burden. As I said, we have seen this as best practice in other jurisdictions, where it works well, and in the leaving certificate applied. It is intended to ensure that students will not feel the high stakes of everything depending on one moment in June. Those stakes are far too high for them.

As the Deputy will appreciate from conversation in general society, there is a consistent understanding that far too much pressure is placed on our senior cycle students in June. It is a very hyped-up exam and there is so much discussion and conversation about it. Students deserve a more structured and even approach over two years. It will give them a better opportunity and more accommodation to showcase their talents. The motivation is students' well-being and a student-centred approach.

Chairman

I have a question about Cork Life Centre and the out-of-school education provision review being undertaken in the Minister's Department. When it was published, in May, a number of factual inaccuracies regarding Cork Life Centre were raised. At the time, the Minister committed to amending it and addressing the issues. Where are we in that regard?

Deputy Norma Foley

The Chairman is correct and I acknowledge his ongoing interest and that of the wider committee in Cork Life Centre. The centre asked for a number of clarifications regarding the report and I indicated we would look at all of them. They were taken on board and subsequently published and made available.

Chairman

I have not checked the website but has the report that was published on it in May been amended to reflect the changes sought by Cork Life Centre?

Deputy Norma Foley

Yes, the clarifications have been made and subsequently published.

Chairman

I have a great interest in Cork Life Centre even though I have nothing to gain from supporting it given it is not in my constituency or anything like that.

Deputy Norma Foley

I appreciate that.

Chairman

When I visited Cork Life Centre along with members of the committee, I was struck by people’s various backgrounds, from working class and lower middle class to upper middle class. Every one of them was high class but they came from various backgrounds. Every child and student has various levels of confidence and various ways in which they are able to express themselves independently or otherwise in, to borrow a phrase of the Minister's a moment ago, showcasing their talents and skills. Perhaps some of these students are unable to do that in the larger school setting, but they were able to find their confidence and showcase their talents and skills when they were part of Cork Life Centre.

I would not like to see anything happen to Cork Life Centre and many other centres across the country. I know this is a big challenge for the Minister and her Department. Do we see more facilities such as Cork Life Centre mushrooming across the country? Is that the answer? I am not the Minister or an official in the Department but I believe we must grasp the nettle and offer assistance. These are fabulous students. I listened to the Minister's reply in the Dáil Chamber yesterday evening. I spoke to the staff members in the Cork Life Centre who gained qualifications to get where they are today. Those people, like everybody else, aspire to being the brilliant people they are, having permanent and full-time jobs, being able to acquire a mortgage and a secure future for themselves and their families.

The committee visited Mountjoy Prison last week. I was very impressed to see that the teaching staff there are in full-time employment for the 12 months of the year. They are employed by the education and training board and are in the prison on a permanent basis. They also get summer payment. To become a teacher is a difficult road to take. It is a difficult qualification to gain. We are doing teachers down if they have to avail of social welfare for the summer months of the year. If I were a teacher and had to avail of social welfare, I would not come back to the classroom as confident come September as I was when I left in May because I had to go on the dole. It is hugely downgrading to someone who has a fantastic qualification.

When the Minister visited the Cork Life Centre, he gave a commitment to look into the fact that registered teachers were not being paid in the way that others were nationally and across other settings. He asked for information to be sent to him and his Department. I understand that was done immediately. I further understand that the director of the Cork Life Centre stayed in touch with the social inclusion section of the Department over the summer months. Nothing has happened. It may be that the Minister and his officials are working on it but I would like to know where that matter stands at the moment, if the Minister could answer.

Deputy Norma Foley

I acknowledge the strong interest of the committee and the Chairman in the Cork Life Centre. I want to say that the entire review of out-of-school educational provision is to ensure that places such as the Cork Life Centre and other centres have a sustainable future. The major concern of Cork Life Centre relates to its sustainable future. I acknowledge that the Department has not been found wanting in offering supports to Cork Life Centre, whether through the 6,000 co-operation hours or the €177,500 that has been offered and all of that.

An issue around staff and their terms and conditions has been raised. The terms and conditions of the staff are very much in line with arrangements which apply to settings outside the recognised school system. That is the current situation. The implementation group on foot of the review is chaired, as I said, by Ms Jacinta Stewart, former CEO of the City of Dublin Education and Training Board. The implementation group will be looking at all aspects, including the issue that was specifically raised with me. There is a body of work to be done in that regard. As we referenced earlier, there are a number of different centres and different scenarios in operation in each of those centres. There is a demand to find a common link and sustainability for all of them, going forward.

The Chairman made reference to the visit the committee made to Mountjoy Prison, which also benefits from co-operation hours. I made the point earlier that many other centres benefit from co-operation hours. I absolutely recognise that there can be situations where students are not being provided for within the mainstream and can be provided for in different settings. I see that in the Cork Life Centre and other centres. We now need to find a mechanism to make them sustainable, going forward. That is the significant work being under taken by the implementation group. It is already in place. There is impressive representation on that implementation group, from the Children's Rights Alliance to the National Association of Principals and Deputy Principals, the National Educational Psychological Service, NEPS, Jigsaw, you name it. This is a significant implementation group. We are working towards the sustainability of the Cork Life Centre and others.

Chairman

I will allow others to come in before I come in again.

Deputy Mick Barry

Does the Minister know how many staff were lost to the Cork Life Centre this summer?

Deputy Norma Foley

The Department of Education provision for Cork Life Centre did not change this year. We provided 6,000 co-operation hours, as we did previously, and €177,500 in funding directly to the centre. From our point of view, we have put in the same level of resources.

Deputy Mick Barry

I understand that. Does the Minister know how many staff were lost to the Cork Life Centre this summer?

Deputy Norma Foley

I am not aware of that. I am aware of what we, as a Department, have put into the Cork Life Centre which, in respect of the co-operation hours, would be equivalent to approximately 8.5 teaching posts.

Deputy Mick Barry

Sure. It is interesting that the Deputy mentioned 8.5 teaching posts because eight staff were lost to the Cork Life Centre this summer alone. They were all senior staff. All of them had worked there for a minimum of six years. Some of them had worked there for 12 or 13 years. There was an inevitability to the Cork Life Centre losing staff this summer. The director had warned in advance that eight to 12 staff would be lost this summer. With the cost-of-living crisis, there can be no expectation or presumption that teaching staff who are not paid properly, or not paid at all in some cases, will be retained. It became clear during the earlier exchange that the Minister had with Deputy Ó Laoghaire that those staff are not in receipt of their increments. There was an inevitability that economic circumstances would force people to leave. Their departure has not involved a replacement of subjects and the Cork Life Centre has been able to maintain the curriculum. However, the loss of those staff represents a considerable loss of experience. For an education centre that works on a model of relationships between staff and young people, to lose eight staff is a big blow. It is a blow the centre will face again next year unless a solution to this issue can be found between now and then. How long does the Minister foresee the review taking? How long will it take to roll out the proposals? How long will the Cork Life Centre have to put up with a situation where it loses staff every summer, which puts it in an impossible position due to the Department's failure to act?

Deputy Norma Foley

I thank the Deputy. I want to be very clear. The supports provided to the Cork Life Centre have not changed. In fact, they have increased considerably since I became Minister.

A figure of €177,500 was provided directly, and 6,000 co-operation hours were provided between the Department and the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science which, again, is equivalent to 8.5 full-time posts. We have not, therefore, changed the resource. In fact, we have increased it in the past two years and it remains in place this year, as it did last year. That is a significant investment from the Department, notwithstanding the challenges faced by Cork Life Centre. I want to acknowledge that.

In terms of the review and now the implementation group, we are seeking to do all we can to make Cork Life Centre and other centres sustainable. That is what Cork Life Centre wants and, indeed, what we all want, recognising that there is a place for out-of-school education provision to meet the needs of students who might require it.

As I said previously, the implementation group is ongoing. The review has been completed and the implementation group is now doing its body of work. There is a significant body of work to get through. As I referenced earlier, there is significant representation on that group. It is chaired by the ex-CEO of the City of Dublin Education and Training Board. The body of work has begun-----

Deputy Mick Barry

I am going to cut in on the Minister because the clock is running down a wee bit. The Minister mentioned on numerous occasions in the discussion the €177,500 and the co-operation hours equivalent to 8.5 full-time posts. Does the Minister think that is nearly enough? Could she answer that for me briefly?

Deputy Norma Foley

Again, I have recognised that there are issues for out-of-education provision. It is for that reason the review has been undertaken and that we now have an implementation group. I want to ensure that these centres are sustainable. The review is not just about Cork Life Centre; it is about all the centres. There must be equality in terms of what we implement. The implementation group is charged with ensuring the sustainability of all these centres going forward.

The Deputy referenced the staff. The staff are employed under the terms and conditions in line with arrangements that apply to settings outside the recognised school system. I appreciate that is not working for all staff. Therefore, that will be part of the implementation group.

Deputy Mick Barry

I will conclude with one very brief comment. It is very clear that the resources that have been put at the disposal of Cork Life Centre are not nearly enough. What speaks to that more clearly than anything that has been said in the committee today, with respect, is the fact that eight staff were lost from Cork Life Centre, which does such vital work in Cork city and beyond. That is eight staff in one summer alone. Clearly, the measures that are in place fall well short. This is clearly an issue that needs to be addressed with far greater urgency. I will leave it at that.

Chairman

I thank Deputy Barry. Before I call the next speaker, I will comment along the same train of thought. Are there many centres similar to Cork Life Centre across the country? I am not sure of any of them. Do they have the same challenges as Cork Life Centre in losing staff? I am following a thread from Deputies Barry, Pádraig O'Sullivan and Ó Laoghaire. The centre lost staff at a specific time when they had - I will not say experience; I should not use that word - a great relationship with some of the students. Is this a challenge many other similar centres to Cork Life Centre are having?

These are students who, and I say this genuinely, just do not fit into the larger classrooms. I was a Minister myself so I know this is a huge challenge, absolutely. I acknowledge that. The question is about how the Minister fixes this. It comes down to financial resources. Money fixes a huge number of things. I know the Minister cannot create an expectation that she can make schools mushroom across the country but the ones that are there are doing a fantastic job. Is the Minister having similar challenges where there are similar centres? How many students do they have?

Deputy Norma Foley

In general, there are a number of centres spread across the country. They are not all the same. They are all quite different and yet, they are similar in that they cater for students outside of mainstream education. They are all doing different things. The key commonality among them, though, in my experience, is sustainability in how they can continue to survive and provide the services they are providing. It is complex and difficult. That does not mean to say we cannot and should not tackle it, however, and we are doing so.

The first step was the review. The next step after the review is the implementation. We have put together a significant implementation group, which has already begun its work. We will move apace. I absolutely appreciate the urgency that is attached to this. We have been consistent in our support to Cork Life Centre. We have increased our support to the centre over the past two years, notwithstanding the difficulty it continues to have. It is my absolute ambition that we will conclude this as quickly as we possible can. The implementation group has just begun its work but we will move it as quickly as we possibly can.

Chairman

Okay. Senator Mullen will be followed by Deputy Conway-Walsh.

Senator Rónán Mullen

Cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire. I listened to everything the Minister had to say about Cork Life Centre so I will not ask her to comment further. Having visited the place and met students and their teachers, however, it struck me, and continues to strike me, how particularly unfair it seems. When we have teachers who are giving a very targeted, specific and necessary service to students in their care, which is in no way to detract from the huge contributions of teachers in more mainstream settings, it seems so unfair that there would be a disincentive to remaining in such a centre of learning because of the relative disadvantage of continuing if the advantage is to be had elsewhere in terms of progression at salary level and so on. It is, therefore, definitely an issue that needs to be addressed.

The Minister also spoke about the free school books at primary level, which I welcome. Is there any chance she can say a little bit more about how she intends to go about consultations? Obviously, even good change can be a little bit frightening and daunting for some. There are retailers, small retailers and book publishers, which I have been dealing with myself lately. It is legitimate for them to be concerned and to ask what this means for their livelihoods and employees and so on. If the Minister can say anything about the timescale of the consultations she plans to have, or whether it is her intention, broadly speaking, to continue to ensure that those who are participating in the sector will not be forced out or disadvantaged by the new arrangements that proposed, that would be helpful.

I spoke recently to somebody who was repurposing a building in the hope of providing accommodation for Ukrainian families in that area, which struck me as being a very legitimate endeavour. This person was concerned, however, and inquired and wondered about whether there would be school places in the area for Ukrainian students, particularly in terms of those who have not yet come to the country. Is there anything the Minister can tell us in that regard? Are there specific challenges? Are there challenges in particular places as opposed to others? Can the Minister shed any light on the challenges, of which there are many, faced by the Government in this particular area?

The Minister will know that the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment, NCCA, is conducting a consultation about relationship and sexuality consultation, RSC. I have heard from many parents who are concerned about aspects of the proposed new curriculum. They worry, in general, that the curriculum is tending to get a bit political, to say the least. There is concern, for example, about the proposal to talk about the influence of or teach about pornography. Some of them wonder why the State is teaching about it when it is doing so little to tackle access to and promotion of pornography. It is something that could be gotten right but it could be gotten very wrong as well.

This intersects with questions of the characteristic spirit of schools and the values of parents, who are the primary educators. Is the Minister able to reassure us that there will continue to be respect for the diversity of schools and school characteristics, and for the concerns of parents, in the context of these proposed changes to the curriculum?

In the context of paper 1 as Gaeilge, and Béarla being possibly taken after year 1, what are the other areas in which we could see the lightening of the leaving certificate load?

What are the earlier opportunities? Does it have to be the essay? Might there be filiocht studied in year one and prose in bliain a dó? I am not just talking about Irish; are there aspects of chemistry or mathematics curriculum that could be dealt with in that staggered way? Is the Department looking at that? Where might the early changes be?

I believe politics and society is a subject that is increasingly popular at second level. It would be remiss of me not to ask the Minister if she would encourage students, teachers and parents to take up the opportunity to participate in the new Oireachtas essay competition that I launched in recent weeks with the support of the Ceann Comhairle and others. I would be delighted for an endorsement of that competition in this forum and an encouragement to everyone to get involved. I would also be grateful if those Teachtaí or Seanadóirí who have received a text or email today would also notify the schools and stakeholders in their spheres of influence in their localities.

Deputy Norma Foley

To reiterate, everyone is interested in securing Cork Life Centre and making it sustainable. I absolutely accept that and understand its importance. We have done considerable work with the review and we are doing even more work with the implementation group. My sole objective is to ensure that centres such as the Cork Life Centre and others are sustainable into the future. I know the importance of ensuring that children and young people are catered for in a setting that will meet their needs. We are intent on doing that work.

On the availability of free books at primary level, there is investment of over €50 million which is significant. It will lessen the load placed on parents and guardians but also ensure that every child will have an equal opportunity and access to text books and everything else. On the Senator's concerns about local retailers, there is already excellent work ongoing in our schools around the book rental scheme we have. Invariably the book rental scheme is operated in co-operation with the local retailer, the book shop or whatever. Schools will have the absolute freedom to determine how they will operate the roll-out of the free book scheme. Many will have already built up relationships with their local providers and may well seek to continuing with that relationship. That will not be prevented or inhibited by the Department. It is important to say that.

On school places in the area for new children and young people who may come in, we are very fortunate that we have capacity in our school system. I will be honest that we have greater capacity in some areas than others and we make that clear. The Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth has responsibility for providing accommodation. We seek to work with the Department where we have capacity in our schools. We are fortunate that we do have enough capacity in our schools in various places, notwithstanding that it might be more challenging in some areas than others. However, in general, there is capacity available.

On the National Council for Curriculum Assessment and the review of SPHE and RSE syllabus, the third national strategy on the need to promote and cultivate a society of zero tolerance for gender and sexual-based violence was launched recently. We are absolutely committed to ensuring that there is zero tolerance around this. It is very important that our students are educated appropriately and have the appropriate tools to know how to manage this world of information that comes before them today, particularly that is available to them automatically on their phones. It is uncensored and unsupervised. It is very important that we have skill sets in our schools to provide for students in that respect. The Senator mentioned what is being taught and how. We are ensuring that there will be an opportunity for our staff to take up postgraduate studies, the costs of which will be covered by the Department, to ensure that they will be sufficiently trained up in the area of SPHE and RSE and also ensuring that by providing this expertise that will in turn be made available to our students but also ensure the importance of the subject is emphasised in our schools. It is important that our students have information and that it is the right information imparted to them by professionals who are experienced in the area. It is not, and never will be appropriate that they will have access to this information.

Chairman

We have gone beyond time and we must be fair to everyone. I do not want any member to say that I allowed latitude to anyone else.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

I will be very brief. I want to reassure Senator Mullen that everyone in Mayo heard him on Midwest Radio the other day. I heard it being discussed in households and heard parents encouraging their students to apply for it. I think that it is a really good idea.

I want to return again to the cap. If you cap at 1,200 for masters and we have a figure who qualified last year of 3,400, then we are 2,200 places short from the public schools plus any who would have been dissuaded or could not afford to take up the places in the private colleges. Will the Minister look at abolishing the cap to allow all students who would prefer to study at a public college to train to be a teacher to do so?

Deputy Norma Foley

There is no cap at post-primary.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

No, this is for primary.

Deputy Norma Foley

I know. I am just establishing that. We engage on an ongoing basis with all the stakeholders regarding demand and supply to ensure that we have an appropriate supply in place. That includes the higher education institute, HEI, providers. We also have a teacher supply action plan which is informed by the work of all of our stakeholders and partners in education. The private providers are responding as they are entitled to, as in whatever sector of society. We do have 3,400 teachers coming on stream. It is a significant body. The demographics tell us the requirement at primary level is actually coming down rather than going up. I appreciate the Deputy has a particular interest in this. We look at everything with our teacher supply action plan. We engage on an ongoing basis with all the education providers and partners in education and we will continue to do that.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

I thank the Minister and encourage her to examine it. We have an opportunity again in November for next year's allocations.

Deputy Colm Burke

I apologise for being late. I raised the matter of the Life Centre last night in the Dáil. I know the MInsiter gave an explanation here. I fully understand that the Department and ETB are involved and that it is a complex issue. It is somethign on which we need to work out a compromise. I gave the example last night of my own experience of being on a board of management and being chair of a board of management of a facility in Blackpool back in the 1990s. I remember when I went in as chairperson, we had facilities that were totally inadequate for 50 young people. I remember spending €85,000 without having a tosser in the bank to upgrade it and to make sure we had the appropriate facilities.

That facility is working well. Many of the children, like the people in the Cork Life Centre, have dropped out of school. Many, although not all, but quite a number of them in the Blackpool centre would have been referred by the gardaí for minor offences. In fairness to the community gardaí, they worked closely on getting them back into the education system. I gave the example of the project on Blackpool, which was done for me and for the board by Don O'Leary from the Cork Life Centre when he was doing his masters. We looked at the children who left us five years earlier and where they were now. More than 70% were in full-time employment. It was also interesting to find that, for a huge number of those children, the employment history of their parents would not have been great, so we were breaking a whole trend that was there and helping them. Likewise with the Cork Life Centre, there is a mixture of children there who do not fit into the formal education setting. When someone drops out of school, it can be very difficult for parents. I have also done a lot of work with people who are doing home-school teaching, providing tuition at home, and it is always challenging when a child drops out of school. In fairness to the Cork Life Centre, it has done a huge amount of work over the last 15 to 20 years that is has been there.

The question now is about how we get it into a structure that is acceptable to the Department and the ETB while at the same time it continues to have an independence to work and do things that are not necessarily within the formal education setting. The question is about that compromise. A compromise can be arrived at, but it is important that everyone is brought along, including the ETB, the Department and the people on the front line running this facility. I know the whole thing has been examined and the research has been done on it, but the next step is to bring the people who have been involved in running the centre to date into that equation and to convince them that they have an independence that does not restrict or in any way infringe on the work they are doing and the success they have in that work. They have lost, I think, eight teachers since June. Each of them had an average of six years' experience. There is a huge challenge there now. A number of people who went to work there on voluntary basis are now teachers in the formal education setting, so there is training for the students and the people in the educational sector. How can we progress it? It has come up as Topical Issue matter and as an oral question last night and it is being discussed again now, but we need to try to move it forward. Does the Minister see a way where we can bring everyone on board in regard to the changes required to give it the financial support it needs?

Deputy Norma Foley

I thank the Deputy. As he said, he has engaged with me previously in a Topical Issues matter, oral questions, etc. There is a huge commitment from this committee. It is my objective to ensure that centres like Cork Life Centre are sustainable and that there is a very clear pathway forward for them. I understand, from my own experience, that the formal education setting satisfies the vast majority of students, although not all, and that every student is valuable. We need to find the maximum opportunity for every student to be happy, content and to learn in an environment that suits them. We have a number of education centres, similar to, but not entirely the same as Cork Life Centre. That is why the body of work around the review was undertaken. That has been completed; we are now on to the next stage, which is the implementation group. That group has just been formalised and has just begun its work.

I have already informed the committee that it is being chaired by the former CEO of Dublin City ETB, Ms Jacinta Stewart. There is a wide realm of experience sitting on that implementation group, including the Children's Rights Alliance, Jigsaw, representatives from justice, and the National Educational Psychological Service, NEPS. There is a considerable body of expertise there. The objective is to ensure that we find a pathway forward to make these centres sustainable. I understand all of the points that have been raised in terms of staffing and the issues around staffing. The reason those issues are there around staffing is that staff are employed under terms and conditions in line with arrangements which apply to the settings in which they teach. This particular setting is outside the recognised school system. That is an issue for them. That will be considered as part of the implementation group and we will seek to find a pathway forward.

I have met with Cork Life Centre, as the Deputy is aware, and I know the value of the work they are doing. I have increased the Department's financial to them commitment over the last two years; it is now at a record high of €177,500 and there is a record high of 6,000 co-operation hours, which equates to the 8.5 full-time staff being made available. I have not changed that commitment this year, so that same level of staffing and funding is available to them. We need to find a way forward. I know everybody sitting around this committee and I know the Chair is also very invested in this, as is everyone else who sits here. I am doing all I can using the vehicle of the implementation group to find a solution or a viable way forward for all of the centres, including Cork Life Centre.

Deputy Colm Burke

Regarding that implementation, it is about bringing the people currently working in the system in and making sure they are satisfied that the changes required also accommodate their concerns and that they are taken into account. How would the Minister see the level of engagement with them going forward, at this stage?

Deputy Norma Foley

The review had extensive consultation. Notwithstanding that, I appreciate that Cork Life Centre had specifically asked for certain clarifications. That was done and published. There has been considerable consultation. The next step is the implementation. There will be opportunities as we go forward. Irrespective of the formula that will be employed, there is a shared agenda to make this work and to make it viable and sustainable. It is not without its challenges. No two centres are the same-----

Deputy Colm Burke

Yes, I fully accept that.

Deputy Norma Foley

-----so we need to find a system that will address all of the issues and the difference of issues that are there. I cannot say much more-----

Deputy Colm Burke

I accept that.

Deputy Norma Foley

-----other than to say I am committed to finding that way forward. I appreciate the expertise and commitment that have been shared by so many who sit around the table at this committee and, indeed, as I said, the Chair himself. I will continue to engage with the Deputy and update him on the progress of the implementation group. I also appreciate the urgency that people want to give this issue.

Chairman

I call Senator Aisling Dolan.

Senator Aisling Dolan

I thank the Chair for allowing me to come back in. I thank also the Minister and officials at the Department. The DEIS programme and rollout are fantastic to see. One in four schools is in the programme. A secondary school in Ballinasloe, County Galway, was one of the schools in Galway to join and it recently received investment for a classroom. It is phenomenal.

One of my earlier questions was about DEIS access and the digital library for the junior certificate schools programme. There are audiobooks available and it is offered free to staff and students in DEIS schools. From what I understand from the committee, we have had correspondence about this from Ms Kathleen Moran, the senior librarian, concerning some of the new schools that have been added into DEIS and the digital library service. The Minister may be able to answer this query. It mentions that the response entailed that a review of the junior certificate schools programme is under way. While the review is ongoing, no new applications are being accepted from schools for entering into the junior certificate schools programme or the digital library service.

Has this come from the Department and if so, at what level? Was it for circulation to school principals? Can the Minister outline the terms of the review and advise whether a timeline is in place? A number of reviews are ongoing in the Department. Does the Minister have a list of the reviews? We are obviously familiar with the review of school transport but perhaps she could give the committee a summary of the reviews if she has it, or perhaps she can send it to the committee. It is wonderful that so many schools are availing of the DEIS programme. This was one of the other elements that is a fantastic addition. Is access a challenge at the moment for schools?

Deputy Norma Foley

The Senator is 100% correct. We have now seen the single largest investment in the DEIS programme of €17 million and it will be €32 million next year. This has allowed the biggest number of schools ever to enter the DEIS programme and it means that one in four students is attending a DEIS programme supported school. That is as we want it. I am aware of the digital library services referred to by the Senator. Our literacy and numeracy strategy is the impetus for that and a significant body of work has been achieved in the implementation of the strategy that was first put in place in 2011 and reviewed in 2017. The Senator asked about reviews. We are now in the process of putting a new digital strategy in place and that will be in place by 2023.

I will speak about the advantage of libraries, numeracy, literacy and so on across a whole range of different fields. Our students consistently feature highly on international reading and literacy studies, the predictive early assessment: reading language, PEARLs as they are called. Irish children rate among the best in Europe and, indeed, in the OECD. That is significant.

We have had €20 million investment in libraries for books and other types of equipment that foster a culture of literacy in our schools. The Senator is correct that an ongoing review is being carried out of the junior cycle and will be completed shortly. As part of the implementation of the junior cycle, it was agreed with all stakeholders that time would be allowed for the review and it will be completed as quickly as possible. We are seeking to offer to supports to schools that are not in the DEIS programme. The Senator outlined some of the supports that are available to them. The next body of work within the Department is to look at schools outside the DEIS programme that are still in need of support. I know, as does everybody here, that children are attending schools that are not in the DEIS programme but still need supports.

Significant funding was made available in the budget to look at measures around inclusion such as home-school community liaisons, HSCLs, the school-completion programme, SCP, and other initiatives.

Senator Aisling Dolan

Yes, they are crucial.

Deputy Norma Foley

We will be pushing forward as quickly as we can with looking at other measures to level the playing pitch for students. I am happy to specifically look at the digital library service again to see what opportunities we have. It is correct that it is tied up in reviews, but I will look at it to see what scope we have.

Senator Aisling Dolan

It would be useful perhaps to understand the costs associated with it. Is it the case this review will be completed in a number of months and access will not be possible until the review is completed?

Deputy Norma Foley

I do not want to mislead the Senator so I will come back to her with something definitive on that.

Senator Aisling Dolan

I would appreciate if she provided a timeline. It is a fantastic service. To be honest, I loved reading and I must admit I would love to go back to school now although I do not know how I would fit everything in. I do not get time to read anything now.

The My Open Library initiative of the local authorities is a fantastic initiative. It is being rolled out, for example, in Ballinasloe, where a people can access a library with their cards. The library is right beside the DEIS level one school, the primary school, in Ballinasloe. It is important that teachers and staff can get access to this. It would, therefore, be appreciated if the Minister could review it, particularly for the additional schools entering the DEIS programme. The HSCL supports, the school completion programme, the hot meals and school meals are important for children who are experiencing challenges and books may not be coming into their homes.

Deputy Norma Foley

I appreciate that and I acknowledge the excellent work of the local authorities in respect of the library service. Terrific links have been established between our schools and the library service and, in fact, we have invited schools to liaise with the library service about types and suitability of books under the €20 million allocation. I also acknowledge the manner in which many libraries work directly with schools to provide whatever might be on the syllabus and the types of books, including for extra-curricular reading, required. I have been a beneficiary of that. They demonstrate terrific leadership and collaboration with the schools and we would like to grow and nurture that going forward as well.

Senator Aisling Dolan

I would like to go back.

I thank the Minister for her time.

Senator Rónán Mullen

I thank the Minister for her comprehensive response to my earlier questions. When my time came to an end, she was in the middle of talking about the concerns I raised about how some parents I encounter who worry the curriculum is getting a bit political - I might even say a bit "woke" in places - or at least there are moves afoot to push values in schools that might or might not sit well with the characteristic spirit of the schools. The worry is that the State needs to acknowledge more clearly and in a more up front way that education is a partnership between schools and patrons. The Education Act clearly recognises the responsibility of patrons for characteristic spirit. The Constitution clearly established the State is in the position of supporting parents in how they educate their children. When issues like pornography come over the horizon, everyone will agree it is important that the right information is communicated and that staff who are talking about these topics should be offered training. However at the end of the day, a school that has an ethos that sees pornography as clearly immoral will probably have a different approach to teaching that topic than a school with more libertarian values. It will alleviate a lot of concern if the Minister were to say, the curriculum is the curriculum but it is viewed through the lens of the characteristic spirit of a school which is chosen freely by parents and that diversity exists. We talk a lot about diversity in one way, but we, or at least the State, does not talk about diversity much when it comes to respecting that there are different types of school, different types of parent and different types of characteristic spirit. As the curriculum becomes more demanding, we must balance this with respect for the characteristic spirit of schools. Any reassurance that the Minister can give on that score would be welcome.

Deputy Norma Foley

As a collective, we are all conscious of the world in which we live these days. We are aware that many of our students are gaining access to information, as I said previously, that is not supervised or appropriate and is not monitored. They are gaining that access via their mobile phones and other sources. It is important that students are equipped to face the challenges of the world in which they live and that they get the appropriate information from individuals who are appropriately trained. Hence, as I said, we are rolling out the postgraduate opportunity for staff with costs covered by the Department. It is equally important to say that students need to have that information.

As regards how we will proceed going forward, a public consultation process is open until 18 October 2022. I have invited everyone, and I take the opportunity to reiterate this, to express their thoughts, views and opinions on what we are about and what needs to be achieved for young people. When that is all received, we will take on board all the thoughts, opinions and shades of opinions and expertise. I absolutely accept there is no monopoly of wisdom on anything and we will take that on board.

However, fundamentally I want to be clear that students must have information for the world in which they live. They must receive it properly and the curriculum must provide for that. As to how we will do it, I respect the ongoing public consultation process and I am asking people to engage in it. We have until 18 October which is next week.

Senator Rónán Mullen

It would help if there could be an acknowledgement that there is, across the diversity of characteristic spirits, a similar commitment to ensuring students are equipped to deal with the world in which they live.

Deputy Norma Foley

Yes.

Senator Rónán Mullen

However, values come into this as well. I have not heard anybody talk about not providing information but there is a concern that information can be slanted very easily and that could happen within the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment, NCCA, as well. Whatever about consultation, which is important, at the end of the day, the Constitution and the law refer to the role of schools and their right to promote their characteristic spirit. In the event of a clash, it would be healthy if the Government was clear in acknowledging that characteristic spirit is not an irrelevant concept here.

Deputy Norma Foley

Again I would say to Senator Mullen that there is a public consultation period. I invite people to share their thoughts and opinions. However, I am equally clear in saying to Senator Mullen that there will be a syllabus formulated from the public consultation process and out of what we know students need to have access to in terms of information. Schools will be obliged to follow the syllabus and to follow the curriculum. However, as I said, I do not want to prejudice the outcome of the thoughts and views people will have and how and in what way it will be implemented. I would rather that the fuller consultation conclude on 18 October. We will then do the necessary body of work, bearing in mind all the thoughts and opinions that have been expressed. That is how I express it at this point. I thank Senator Mullen.

Senator Rónán Mullen

I thank the Minister.

Chairman

I have one or two questions for the Minister. She will be glad to hear we will then be finished. The committee welcomes the Minister's announcement of more than €5 million for the pilot programme of counselling supports for primary schools. I know it was a recommendation in the committee's report, School Bullying and the Impact on Mental Health, although when the Minister announces something else, we look for even more. That is the normal thing. I know this is for primary schools-----

Deputy Norma Foley

Yes.

Chairman

-----but are there any plans to roll this pilot programme out to post-primary schools? Will it be in the next budget? It is an excellent initiative and it was raised with the committee by a number of groups and organisations during our deliberations. I know this is another cost but in the long term, there might also be a saving here and that it might be possible to identify some of the issues that might be going on in a child's life, whether in their personal life, at home or elsewhere. I would be interested to hear the Minister comment on that.

Deputy Norma Foley

I thank the Chair.

Chairman

I congratulate the Minister on doing that. It deserves praise.

Deputy Norma Foley

I thank the Chair and know it is an area of specific interest to him and the committee. I was very keen to progress it and conscious that this type of support is not available in primary schools at present. This €5 million gives us this opportunity and we have begun the work as to how it will be rolled out and how we will work it through and pilot it in primary schools with an opportunity to roll it out even further. There will be great learnings from how we do it. There are services currently available at post-primary level, notwithstanding what the Chair said in terms of this type of provision. From the learnings we will have at primary level, there will be opportunities to go beyond that. In the first instance, we will roll this out, evaluate it and see what opportunities there are going forward.

I agree with the Chair that this is a necessary and timely provision for our primary schools, and it is not before its time. Coming out of Covid-19, we are conscious of the additional little stresses and strains that are placed on children and on schools and how best we can support them. This is the beginning of providing specific counselling supports at primary level and we will evaluate and learn from it and see what the potential is going forward in future budgets.

Chairman

It might have been asked previously but I would like to ask about the establishment of the steering group to review the 2013 action plan on school bullying. Can the Minister indicate when the action plan review will be published or where she and her Department are on that?

Deputy Norma Foley

Yes. On the review of the 2013 action plan, the steering group, as the Chair is aware, is being led by Dr. Noel Purdey of Stranmillis University College in Antrim. There has been considerable consultation around this. As I did initially, I wish to acknowledge the enormous body of work it has done. There was a presentation on the thoughts and recommendations and the body of work the committee did before the steering committee. It is a very significant body of people who have expertise in the area, including Professor James O'Higgins-Norman, who, as the committee will know, holds the UNESCO chair at DCU. We looked for expertise from abroad, including from Professor Peter Smith. We consulted children and young people from all different backgrounds. There is terrific work being done. It is now evaluating the consultation process and seeking to do all it can to advance that in the shortest time possible. I do not want to lead the Chair astray and say it will be in a certain number of weeks or months but we are working towards having this in place in the shortest timeframe possible, before the end of the year. That is our expectation. It would be remiss of me to give a specific date because I want to respect the fact that it is working through this.

There was an enormous amount of consultation around this. There were thousands of consultations with parents, students, school staff and so on. It is a very impressive body of work. It is working through it and we are looking to have the final report as quickly as we possibly can.

Chairman

The Minister mentioned DCU. I would like to compliment those in DCU, who have appeared before the committee, on the excellent work they do on the FUSE programme.

I ruled somebody out of order for talking about school transport but I will ask that question when I am on my own-----

Deputy Norma Foley

The prompting of the Chair-----

Chairman

No one else can come in. I have a very quick question on the review of school transport. I have put down a parliamentary question on the additional funding the Minister got in the budget for school transport, but have not seen the reply yet. Will that mean additional places for students who do not have tickets at the moment and who are looking for tickets or will it be used to take on additional drivers or put on additional routes? When will the review be completed?

Deputy Norma Foley

As Senator Dolan said, we seem to have loads of reviews but they are all positive because they are all bodies of work that really need to be done.

In terms of school transport, this committee knows well, as I know, the importance of ensuring we have maximum number of access points for students. There is a huge body of work here, similar to anti-bullying. There were thousands of engagements with parents, students and guardians who currently avail of the service and from those who do not avail of the service, from bus and transport providers and a whole variety of individuals. That is currently being worked through. I want to be honest and say the work of that particular group has been impacted by Covid-19 and most especially by issues in Ukraine and the additional demands placed on this particular section within the Department. We are continuing to work through it and will work as speedily as we can.

On the additional funding, this time last year approximately 103,000 tickets were made available to those who met the criteria. Again, there was a lot of conversation around the criteria. The waiving of the school transport fees was for those who met the eligibility criteria. Last year that would have been 103,000 but this year 126,000 students are availing of that because they met the criteria. There is an issue, as the Chair said, around those who are concessionary. The concessionary issue has always been with us and in previous years when there were extra seats available, people got a ticket even though they did not meet the criteria. They got a ticket because there were a spare seats on the bus. This year there has been a 28% increase in the number of concessionaries who have gotten tickets. They do not meet the criteria but there are extra seats available, so they got a seat. There was an 18% increase in those who were eligible and who got tickets. I am very conscious that there are those who were concessionaries and in receipt of concessionary tickets previously. That has been a major cause of concern here and for everybody. Those who were in receipt of tickets and who applied on time are the students we are now seeking to accommodate on foot of the additional funding that has been made available in the budget.

Again, I wish to be honest. There are issues around sourcing additional buses or drivers but we are working through them. The first priority is those in receipt of concessionary tickets last year who applied on time.

Chairman

Regarding Bus Éireann not allowing people over 70 years of age to drive buses, there should be an instruction. Is it the Minister's responsibility or that of the Minister for Transport? The Government is looking for people to work longer and is changing the old age pension criteria to that end. Some of these people aged 70 are fresher than some drivers who are 50. This issue needs to be addressed.

Another issue about which I feel strongly concerns co-educational schools in the country. Some students want to go to either a boys' school or a girls' school but are being forced to go to a co-educational school because it is in their catchment area. I know this is a challenge as it involves additional costs for the Department and school transport but it should be included in the review. I know family members who did not want to go to the school in their catchment area because it was a co-educational school. They wanted to go to a girls' school. We must respect that.

Deputy Norma Foley

I can confirm that this is part of the review. Regarding the cut-off point of 70 for school bus drivers, it is a policy decision of Bus Éireann. However, the company has informed us that it is kept under review.

Chairman

I thank the Minister and her officials for coming before the committee this evening. A significant amount of work takes place in the background with the officials before any Minister comes before a committee. In that context, I thank the officials for the notes provided. Members should be very happy with a productive meeting at which we addressed key issues that affect students and schools across the country. I echo the Minister's words of condolence regarding the events in Creeslough.

The joint committee adjourned at 7.54 p.m. until 11 a.m. on Tuesday, 18 October 2022.