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Joint Committee on Education, Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science debate -
Tuesday, 7 Nov 2023

Consent Programmes in Irish Education: Discussion

The witnesses are present to discuss the consent programme in Irish education. The format of the meeting is that I will invite Dr. MacNeela and then Professor Crowley to make brief opening statements of five minutes each. This will be followed by questions from members of the committee. Each committee member has a six-minute slot in which to ask questions and for the witnesses to respond. As witnesses are probably aware, the committee will publish the opening statement on its website following the meeting.

Before we begin, I remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if witnesses' statements are potentially defamatory in respect of an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed by the Chair to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

I now invite Dr. MacNeela to make his brief opening statement, followed by Professor Crowley. They both have five minutes.

Dr. Pádraig MacNeela

We thank committee members for the opportunity to speak. Since 2013, the active consent programme at the University of Galway has pioneered sexual consent education and research with young people throughout Ireland. It has grown into an a national programme over that time. We use surveys, campaigns, resources, workshops, theatre and training to prompt institutional innovations, with the aim that young people will achieve what we call "consent literacy". It would be great to talk to the committee about that concept today. Essentially we are talking about people having a good level of knowledge within themselves of the concepts, and good information about what their peers are thinking. There is a lot of misinformation out there. Also, that people feel they can communicate with their partners and their peers their preferences - what they want to do or do not what to do. That they are able to support their peers as well should they need help or assistance and that they can seek help themselves should they need it. Also, that they can challenge attitudes and actions that they know are inconsistent with the principles of respect, similar to our colleagues here from UCC.

One of the most important learnings in the past decade is that achieving the goal of consent education for young people is sustainable only when seen as a programme of culture change. That is really important. That means that successful outreach and support on a large scale must be matched by capacity building, institutional ownership, and policy that drives consistent implementation. We recognise the potential that now exists for transformative change in this space in how the education sector responds in the areas of consent, sexual violence, and harassment. The work completed by ourselves and other colleagues in national programmes such as Consent Ed and by our colleagues at UCC and others has established an extensive base of research and practice. The building blocks are in place. More recent changes in the junior and senior cycle social, personal and health education, SPHE, requirements, the acceptance that systems change is required to address areas such as bullying and mental health combine with these innovations and practice to provide the opportunity for action. There is now an essential moment in which we can take action.

The context for this is the mounting evidence of the scale of sexual violence and harassment being experienced by our young people today. It demands a strong national response on prevention and support. That is why we made the four key recommendations that the committee has seen in our written submission. We want straightforward guidance and resources for school communities that enable them to benchmark themselves. It is really important for schools to know what they should be doing. We believe we should have a benchmark of the key components of a whole school approach in order that they can identify and then address gaps through devising a local action plan. That action plan, similar to what the committee recommended for anti-bullying strategies, refers to policies, infrastructure, adoption of curriculum, support for professional development for educators and so on.

Our second recommendation is to engage the principles that are driving innovative work on anti-bullying and mental health, to introduce strategies whereby the Department of Education is taking a monitoring role and is able to assess the uptake of these standards. We have seen in higher education the role of the Ministry in that case as being essential in driving the implementation.

We also have to provide mechanisms for staff in post-primary schools and in further education and higher education to access training and resources, thereby setting an agreed standard of professional competency in this area. We have seen a lot of commitment and interest and individual passion in this area and we now need to follow that up with national standards in order that we can build capacity and have agreement about what is required.

Then we also have the opportunity to have full integration and for Ireland to be a world leader in this area where young people would have a seamless curriculum in post-primary education, further education and higher education, encountered in a developmentally coherent way such that individuals and communities can learn about respect and mutual support all the way from early adolescence to adulthood.

We are coming from a position of experience in this area. Over the past decade, our team has drawn on a diverse range of disciplines, including psychology, health promotion, theatre and psychotherapy. To finish, I will highlight a little bit about this work so the committee can get to know us a little better. Since 2015, we have had a continuous series of primary research reports and then studies that have evaluated and explored the impact of our programming. We are an evidence-based programme. We are based in a university and are grounded in the communities around us. Since 2020 alone, we have published a sexual experiences survey, a toolkit for higher education, the active consent for school communities report, and a review of the active consent programme impact earlier this year. In August of this year, with one of our colleagues, Dr. Kate Dawson at the University of Greenwich, we co-authored one of the first reports on teacher-perpetrated sexual harassment, which is indicative of the way we keep driving forward on new areas of knowledge. We will shortly publish a report on our live drama production that toured colleges and schools with a further outreach to schools planned for early 2024. This year alone, our research team has published in three international peer-reviewed journals, namely, Violence Against Women; Sexuality & Culture, and the Journal of Sexual Aggression. All of our reports are available on consenthub.ie. It is a national resource that also hosts practical information for young people and parents and offers professionals free access to learning resources to support their practice in classrooms and colleges.

That ethos of openness and sharing is critical. In the submission we made to the joint committee the closer partnership we have with the Galway Rape Crisis Centre can be seen, as well as with post-primary and further and higher education institutions, and others. For example, we evaluated the senior cycle Manuela programme, which was supported by Tusla, the Department of Justice, and Rape Crisis Centres nationally. We also evaluated the follow-on programme, Consent Ed, initiating a partnership we both expect to deepen and to create a leading national collaboration from next year onwards. Members of our team also completed reports for the Higher Education Authority, HEA, in 2021 on the national surveys of staff and students in higher education on attitudes, awareness, culture change, sexual violence experiences and sexual harassment. We are coming from that position of research, knowledge and sharing that information at all times.

In the case of the HEA reports, that work was important to provide an information base for the implementation plan that was adopted by the HEA centre for excellence for equality, diversity and inclusion. We have learned that this type of information and the findings we have disseminated may make for uncomfortable reading but it is a vital ingredient of long-term culture change and that is a key reason we recommend that schools are supported with bespoke tools and training for that purpose to bring them up to speed too. We see an awful lot of passion and commitment in the classroom from teachers but the systems change and the ability to reflect and self-reflect at school level is vital and there is a gap.

At the same time, Ireland is an international leader and building the capacity for consent education as a response to the issue of sexual violence is clearly relevant beyond Ireland.

The active consent programme increasingly recognises the commonality shared with education systems in other countries and sees how this can lead to mutual benefit and reciprocal exchanges. We are, therefore, involved in this in the COSHARE project, which is an all-island project with the University of Ulster and last month, at the University of Galway, we hosted an inaugural meeting of an international network of consent researchers and practitioners from the US, Canada, the UK and New Zealand. Our intention is to have an international consent curriculum where Ireland learns from the best and delivers back out internationally.

To conclude, we see a unique transformative opportunity to bring together recent innovations in practice which we have described from our programme and from our colleagues, and policy which is now emerging as a very clear pathway. This is best supported by active collaboration between all those interested in researching, responding, teaching and leading in this area. It must be guided by joined-up national guidelines that provide clear expectations and requirements of our educational institutions, whether they are the large institutions at the university level or small schools locally. It must also be met by resources of time and funding which are required to enable the sector to respond. We look to the future with hope in this sense, while also recognising the scale of the challenges associated with consent, sexual violence and harassment. I thank the committee.

I thank Dr. MacNeela and call Professor Crowley to speak now, please.

Deputy Mairéad Farrell took the Chair.

Professor Louise Crowley

Good morning. I thank the Cathaoirleach and members of the committee for the invitation to meet here today to discuss consent programmes at second level. The bystander intervention programme at UCC educates and empowers staff and students to recognise all forms of sexual hostility, harassment and violence and empowers people to make safe and effective interventions. It emphasises that no level of unwanted advances or acts of abuse is acceptable and mandates a collective responsibility to demand better, by recognising and challenging all forms of misogyny, grooming, sexualised comments, sexual harassment and sexual assault. Beyond capacity to recognise behaviours and cultivating a sense of personal responsibility, the programme also emphasises the importance of knowing how and when to make a safe intervention. The considerable range of intervention options is typically a revelation for participants who come to realise that a confrontation is often the least effective approach. Rather, participants learn the value of distraction, removal, reporting, creating allies and, of course, providing support for the victim, and even how finding someone better positioned to intervene may be the best intervention in certain instances.

Ultimately, all students realise that whatever their limits, their capacities or their status, everyone has the power to take a stand and we can all be a part of the critical movement for cultural change.

With regard to young people, the Rape Crisis Network Ireland ground-breaking 2021 Storm and Stress study of adolescent experiences of sexual harassment demonstrated the shocking prevalence of sexual harassment and violence among young people. As bystanders, 83% had witnessed some form of sexual harassment and 78% said that sexual harassment occurred within their peer community. However, encouragingly, 81% of the respondents felt that, with the support of their peer group, they had the power to address it and contribute to change. Young people must be able to navigate their sexual development, and feel safe in their study, their work, their home environments, as well as in the greater community.

In noticing and rejecting all unwanted and unacceptable acts, young people can effect cultural and societal change collectively. A social mandate of zero tolerance and an embracing of the capacity of each of us to be the difference can shatter the destructive silence and demand a new and shared normal of respect for all.

Funding was awarded in 2022 by the Irish Research Council to create a bespoke bystander programme for secondary school senior cycle students. Our pilot content was modelled on the UCC programme but amended to ensure that the language and content was age-appropriate and that the fictional scenarios reflected the lived reality of the second level audience. The programme was launched in March 2022, with 170 teachers from 50 schools nationally undertaking online training in groups of ten to 12 teachers, at three-hours per training session. The appetite for the training and the hugely positive experience reported by the participating schools demonstrates the potential for an all-of-society reach for bystander intervention training. The second level pilot programme has also shone a light on the very challenging and prevalent experiences of young people in Irish society and the urgent need for consistent and evidence-based education, as mentioned by Dr. MacNeela, to support their better understanding and capacity for proactive responses.

The overarching aim of the pilot programme is to educate and empower participating students, to identify and demand a new normal of respect, fuelled by a recognition of their own capacity to be agents for change, thereby ensuring a safer and more respectful society for them and their peers. The six themed 40-minute workshops considered what a bystander is, consent and healthy relationships, social norms and sexual harassment, online harassment and image-based abuse, being an active bystander and then, shared student reflection. Upon completion of the programme, more students agreed that sexual harassment is a problem in their age group. The data gathered illustrate an increased capacity, following training, to identify acts of sexual harassment and an enhanced willingness to speak up to support others. Second level students, as a result of the training, felt more capable and willing to participate as allies and proactive bystanders for each other, illustrating the positive impact of this programme in empowering young people, who witness this behaviour within their peer group, to respond in a safe way.

On the teachers' experience, secondary school staff were acutely aware of the issues and harms young people are experiencing and were enthusiastic about delivering the programme. They found the course content and materials to be age appropriate and interactive for students, enabling rich discussion and peer learning through group work. School staff found the training and support materials provided to them as facilitators to be very valuable.

I will now mention three small snippets of feedback taken from the data. Cian Giblin from Scoil Chaitríona, Glasnevin, expressed that what he loved about the programme was how incredibly practical it is, that all the detail is there for teachers ready to use, that it is user friendly, and that it gave him confidence in delivering it. He said that his students really enjoyed having a space to debate respectfully with each other the issues that arise from the programme. He noted that all of the parents signed the consent forms showing the hunger and appetite for this education. Deirdre Wolfe from Hamilton High School, Bandon, noted that when there was a rugby match and half of the class had to miss the programme, they were visibly disappointed at not being able to continue the learning. Neil Lucey of Christian Brothers College, Cork, regarded the programme as both very interesting and challenging, with great interaction and extremely positive feedback from students.

To conclude on the future of the bystander intervention secondary school programme, the evidence-based transformational learning and impact of the programme reflects the committed and skilled facilitation of the programme by teachers across the country who seek to support the positive learning and teaching of sexual harassment and violence prevention and responses for young people. As educators, we at UCC are incredibly encouraged by the positive learning and teaching experience of the participating schools which demonstrates the great demand that exists - as does the existing waiting lists from schools - to deliver the training. We maintain this waiting list with the hope for support in funding to allow us to spread this very important training nationwide. I thank the committee.

I thank Professor Crowley very much for that presentation. As well as being Chair, I am first on the list with questions and it is not that I am going ahead of people.

I have heard so many great things about the excellent work that all the witnesses do, so I very much appreciate the fact that they have appeared before the committee to speak to us today.

My first question is in respect of certain male influencers and the impact that is having. During the course of our guests' work on these programmes, I was wondering if they are seeing or have noticed the impact on attitudes of young people as a result of some of that influence online with regard to their views on sex and consent? How is that coming to the fore at this moment in time? This is a question for any of our guests who would like to answer it, please.

Professor Louise Crowley

As an educator, information and learning is the fundamental block with regard to developing and shaping cultural change. We know from our workshops with young people that the depth and extent of misinformation and misogyny online, to which they all have access, is unprecedented and is extensive. This is very much part of our role in our workshops which is, first, to give the participants the safe space to share those views, however toxic, and then to facilitate a balanced conversation. In allowing them to share these views, they can hear their peer responses. The value of allowing the peers to respond to each other in a safe and facilitated way means that they openly debate with one another.

With regard to some of the messages from those high-profile persons which the Cathaoirleach Gníomhach referred to, they certainly are influencing young people and men, in particular. We get incredible feedback from the teachers who are facilitating. One teacher told us that following the bystander training, male students in a mixed school indicated that they always thought that sexual harassment had to be physical for it to be wrong. Even their perceptions of what constituted unacceptable behaviour can be so misinformed. If they do not recognise unacceptable behaviour, they are obviously far more inclined to both commit it and not to challenge it.

Those toxic voices are loud and continuously accessible. In our current iteration, we are working on incorporating an element on porn and the impact of porn on understanding and behaviours. We have also found that female students - it is quite gendered - respond with revulsion but speak about the expectations in their personal relationships and the expectations that mirror the behaviours they witness online. This is very challenging because there is a growing misperception and false consensus among young people that what they see online reflects a normal relationship. There is powerful work to be done, therefore, to allow them to unlearn and relearn and that is a key part of what we do.

The school-based facilitated workshops are powerful to witness and participate in because students, when you have provided them with the information and the correct interpretations and understanding of positive, healthy relationships, will debate it among themselves, learn and unlearn among themselves and endorse the better behaviours, thereby allowing those who may have thoughts or beliefs that reflect misogyny or other unacceptable behaviours to move towards the better position, in a much safer and less dictatorial way. In terms of learning, we are not there to tell them exactly how to behave but rather to give them the information and allow them to get there themselves, endorsed and supported by their peers.

Professor Crowley stated there needs to be a cultural change and we hear a lot about male loneliness, especially post pandemic. Are these male influencers in some way filling some kind of void in that regard and leading to a cultural change, albeit not in a direction we would like? How can we help boys develop more positive relationships with other boys?

Professor Louise Crowley

The influencers are tapping into that want and need young men have, and they have had that need forever, although, obviously, the pandemic shone a light on it. What we need to do, and what we do with the Bystander programme, is provide those safe spaces, start those conversations and give them the language. Even though cohorts of young men are sometimes quite silent in the classroom, we know they have conversations afterwards and engage with the learnings outside.

We have heard feedback from schools in this regard. For example, in a school where I delivered a workshop to a large cohort of senior level students, the principal came up to me a couple of weeks later and said three boys had been walking down the corridor the previous week and one of them had said something inappropriate to a female teacher. In that moment, the principal said, the boy's two friends stopped him, called him out and told him to apologise to the teacher. The school did not get involved, therefore, but let the boys handle it there and then. It is about allowing them to learn to identify it and see that unacceptable behaviour is not just aggravated sexual assault and rape but all those forms. If we can call out and stamp out those early forms of misogyny or disrespect, the hope is we will prevent an escalation. It is about empowering them and giving students agency to be the change, that is, not for us to impose it on them but to give them the skills to do it themselves.

What takeaway would Professor Crowley like anyone who is watching this meeting or the members of the committee to gain? What few basic tips does she feel are important for the general public to be aware of? Obviously, the main thing is that everyone should undergo this training, but in the absence of everyone being able to do so at this time, what is the key takeaway we should gain?

Professor Louise Crowley

From our perspective, it is that everybody has a responsibility to change culture. When something devastating happens in society and the entire country is paralysed by it, and when people think it is terrible but at least it is not them, it is actually all of us who can effect change. If any of us sees something that is not acceptable and we let it slide and do not call it out, we promote what we permit. It is incumbent on all of us, therefore, to call it out and take that stand. Whatever the unacceptable behaviour might be, if we do not accept it, those who are behaving that way will suddenly realise they are othered and that people do not want that type of behaviour. That is a very strong societal way of effecting change but it is an all-of-society response, which is critical. It cannot be left to lone objectors; it has to be a collective response. That is why the in-class learning is so powerful, because it is not just one individual being talked to but a group being given an opportunity to hear and discuss collectively and respond. That then spreads to the wider environment such as schools and sporting clubs, where we also deliver training, and into society and homes. It has the capacity to effect an all-of-society change.

Deputy Paul Kehoe resumed the Chair.

I thank the witnesses for attending. It is good to see them all. In particular, it is good to see Ms McDowell, who has done incredible advocacy work in this and related areas. That is much appreciated.

I had the opportunity a few years ago to attend a consent class in Trinity College Dublin and was really impressed with it. In particular, I was impressed the attendance was 50% men and 50% women, which was important. I acknowledge all the strong work that has been going on in this area since then. When the previous education committee published recommendations on RSE, there was quite a bit of pushback from the patron bodies of schools and from some parents. I met a few parents myself, mainly dads, who were concerned some of the recommendations might lead their daughters to be more promiscuous. I tried to make the point it was about trying to protect their daughters and giving them the language and the understanding that it is absolutely okay to say "No" and not to be in a position whereby they are coerced. With the pilot programme that has been carried out in post-primary schools, has there been pushback from schools of a certain ethos?

Dr. Pádraig MacNeela

That is an interesting one because you would know only if you tried to find out, so one of the issues is that we would need to work with teachers and parents. Dr. O'Higgins has worked quite a bit in that area.

Dr. Siobhán O'Higgins

In the case of every school that has contacted us to become involved with our resources, after the training with the teachers, we offer a webinar for parents. More recently, since Covid, we have been able to go to schools and hold an evening for parents. We have found there is pushback from some parents, who want to keep their children ignorant but ignorance is not the same as innocence. It is about reducing their children's vulnerability. Knowledge is power, as is information, and it is about getting across that message to parents that this is about reducing their children's vulnerability and not about putting them at risk.

We know from international research that talking about these issues informs young people and that they will be less likely to become involved in intimacy at an earlier age if they have that information. In the US, when there was abstinence-only education, many young people were becoming involved intimately from the age of 15, but without safety or understanding because they could not tell anybody or ask anybody about it. It is about moving away from talking about risk to talking about how a relationship that is positive might be formed and how to explore and express yourself as a young person, that is, moving from being a child to being an emotionally and physically healthy adult.

Dr. Pádraig MacNeela

How does Dr. O'Higgins find parents will respond to that messaging?

Dr. Siobhán O'Higgins

In the incidents I mentioned, there were more than 50 parents at the evening event and three parents were very sure it was wrong and was about grooming children and so on. I was giving a presentation and one parent at the front was taking photographs of all my slides, so I said she could have my slides and I would give them to her. She talked about how it was about paedophilia and grooming children but I said that, in fact, it was about reducing vulnerability. We talked to that and the principal then came in to say we were engaging with those resources because we wanted to give young people knowledge in order that they could be safer, both online and face to face, with any kind of engagement and building of relationships. The other parents at the event were starting to get annoyed and saying they did not agree with the people objecting, so eventually, the three people who were there to disrupt or say they did not agree left and the rest of the parents were then able to engage with us and ask questions about what it would mean and what resources we had.

We have an online resource to give young people critical media-literacy skills. It is not just about pornography but about everything, on all social media. There is a lot of sexual media involved in all of that, such as in the songs they listen to.

It is to give them the skills to deconstruct what they are seeing for themselves. That is an online resource. We create a unit of learning for schools in that we have a workshop that is delivered by trained teachers and the online resource, the sex on our screens resource, which has been worked through with parents, teachers and young people to get the language right and so on. We take a long time to pilot everything. We have a drama which appeals to people in a different way because they are sitting and watching 11 different scenes performed by four actors on four blocks of wood, basically. That is what they do.

I am conscious of time. I thank Dr. O'Higgins. I like the emphasis on positivity, as in positive sexual behaviour as opposed to just talking about all the negative elements. Will Dr. O'Higgins refer to the importance of students taking in these programmes at a younger age and before reaching third level? Obviously, the results of the survey give rise to concern. Will Dr. MacNeela address the importance of adopting a holistic strategy to this, so that it is not just in one classroom with one teacher, but right across the school or youth group? I have a question about a whole of culture and societal change, which we absolutely need to have. To ensure consistency and accuracy of information, if outside bodies are delivering, they need to be regulated by the HSE or Department to ensure that there is not an inherent bias in another way.

Dr. Pádraig MacNeela

That is why we are emphasising the whole-school approach. We have considerable experience in the school environment. Our approach has been to work first of all with higher education, where we have established this methodology of conducting research to understand what is going on in that environment, then designing resources, workshops interactive elements and so on that people will respond to, and testing and evaluating those. That is an important component of safety that takes place so that the direct experience of young people can be quality assured, but it is not enough. That is why we are here today, advocating for a whole school approach. We have seen the publication of the anti-bullying strategy and action plan this year. If we could have that for this area, it would be a game-changer.

We need to ensure, for example, that policies that schools have in place are actually up to speed. We often talk in the university context about trauma-informed processes and policies. We struggle with those. They are hard to achieve in practice. I can only imagine that there is a big gulf in the post-primary area. When we do this programming, it inevitably raises issues with people about realising and being able to put a name on something that happened to them. It is happening in a classroom context. We continually have debates in the university sector about what happens if people are back in the same classroom with another person who they feel harassed them. This is happening daily in schools. Schools are not equipped to deal with that type of issue.

Going back to the idea of passionate teachers, they need to be working in a compassionate system that will empower them to deliver the kinds of changes that we need to see. I know Ms McGrath has been forging ahead with further education. We might think of schools as somewhere along the path of this year. Over the past two years, we were asked by the Department of Justice to work with further education, where new ground is broken all the time. What are some of the steps that Ms McGrath would take to get into the system and raise awareness?

Ms Sinéad McGrath

Everything we do goes back to the same basic structure that we would have done with higher education institutes in the first place and that we have done with the schools, as Dr. MacNeela talked about. For further education and training, including Youthreach, it was a whole new world. Some of its students and learners would never have had this opportunity to discuss consent or anything like that before. We had to do the same thing, building relationships, assessing their needs, seeing where it would fit, what the barriers were, how they would have time to attend training, who would support them, and providing them with other educational opportunities.

As Dr. MacNeela said, for people to be put in this space, they have to be trained. We have given them other opportunities, first point of contact and disclosure training, and continuing professional development within the university structure too. They have a greater understanding. When we start with that, it is networking and assessing their needs. A significant part of it is the whole school and whole college approach. We would do awareness sessions for all staff. To me, that was the most successful part of the buy-in from all staff, because then everybody knew what we were about. They knew that we were research-based and that it was safe. We have been in this space for ten years, especially Dr. MacNeela and Dr. O'Higgins. We know it works. We have researched it in the context of tens of thousands of students. That buy-in was significant.

For example, we have done much work on one particular post-leaving certificate course provider in the Kerry region. It had a teacher, who was the deputy principal, who did the online training with Dr. O'Higgins. She rolled out active consent workshops in the college but she needed support to take the next step. I went and did two hours of awareness training with all staff. It is not good enough for them to say that they are not doing that and it is not our concerns. To change the culture that Dr. MacNeela and Professor Crowley are talking about, everybody has to be involved. Then I went back and did all-day training of 34 staff. All the staff except one attended the training. They will not all facilitate training but they will know and have a greater understanding of what we can do to prevent sexual violence and harassment and make a safer place for everybody who attends that college. It has rolled out the introductory workshop to all its more than 700 students. Now it is moving to face-to-face workshops, supported with its messaging and by some of its staff accessing some of our education opportunities.

Dr. Pádraig MacNeela

That is why we are saying that the post-primary schools in the senior cycle have had several years of consistent development. The Senator is right to say that there is a lack of regulation of what the programming ought to look like. Now we have learning outcomes for junior cycle. I suppose we are just about to have them for senior cycle. That will provide us with a clear architecture and infrastructure. Any programmes clearly have to address those learning outcomes. How one does it and the whole principle of equity, diversity and inclusion of male students is critical in that. That is another area that requires regulation. We would advocate for competency standards for teachers and educators right across the board so that we can be assured that they are able to deal with and manage these difficult issues like disclosure, all the way through the spectrum, to the positive, joyful conversations that we can have about relating well to each other, but we are not there yet. We would look for our programme to collaborate more closely with Professor Crowley's.

We are working with Consent Ed, which is supported by Tusla and the rape crisis centres nationally. We all have to move together, and not be conscious of our own position in this, to establish a national framework. We recognise that there is confusion and that teachers are unsure about which programme is which, what is being done, and so on. We are beyond the point of having people come into schools to deliver that programming for them. It needs to be owned by the institution. It needs to be owned by everybody from the board of management, principal, deputy principal and downwards.

I welcome the representatives from the bystander intervention programme in UCC and the active consent programme in Galway. I thank them for the kind comments about the anti-bullying report, because that is one of the first reports this committee worked on. It impacted on all of us. Nearly one in three experience bullying in school environments. It had a significant impact on us as a committee. We worked on those recommendations.

I know active consent quite well. Dr. MacNeela and Dr. O'Higgins and I were at what I think was still NUI Galway, now the University of Galway, in 2021. It was wonderful to have the launch with the Minister, Deputy Harris. Only recently they were at the Department of Justice on St. Stephen's Green in Dublin to promote and speak about the work they are doing through the active consent programme. I enjoy hearing about how they are bringing together different disciplines. I come from an arts background and really see the value in bringing in different disciplines particularly to tackle what is really a social challenge. We talk about it at third level, in schools and in an education context but it is a whole-world context. We are training people and society how to support and protect themselves in the world rather than simply in our education environments.

Dr. MacNeela has talked about psychology, health promotion and psychotherapy being brought together and then the theatre, which is very important in Galway, of course, and in Cork as well. We have a brand new subject for leaving certificate: theatre, drama and film studies. How could that new subject benefit the roll-out of this type of programme which involves those types of workshop and bringing in the interdisciplinary part to it?

Dr. MacNeela spoke about benchmarking schools. Our anti-bullying report looked at the inspections that are published. There are resources on schooldays.ie. I want to be sure that parents can be informed when a child is in school - this is where they have a choice because in many places there is not as much choice - and that they can see how different schools put an emphasis on how they manage dealing with harassment, aggression or this type of behaviour. How do the witnesses see benchmarking working? How would it be publicly visible so people can see the measures that schools are putting in place? Obviously there has to be a lot of support for schools behind that. I am putting that to Dr. MacNeela because he spoke very specifically around guidance to schools and so on.

I am also on the subcommittee on mental health, as are some of my colleagues here. It is crucial that we see the active consent programme and the bystander programme, etc. This impacts on aggression and sexual violence among young people. Funding has been agreed for the active consent programme. It is between the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science and the Department of Justice, where Dr. MacNeela was based earlier this year when he was speaking about his programme, under the Minister, Deputy McEntee. Funding has been agreed for five years under the active consent programme. How will this change campus culture? It is incredible to see that 70,000 first year college students will have done that workshop. What sorts of colleges are included in that? Is it all of our colleges? It is over 2019 and 2022. I think Dr. MacNeela and Ms McGrath spoke as an advocate around the schools. We have over 1,800 teachers and over 1,000 parents online in the secondary school sector and over 4,000 secondary school students. How do we get the hearts and minds of parents behind this? Will Dr. MacNeela speak about that? It is very important that parents have the openness at home that young people can come to them. We always hear about the one trusted adult, especially in anti-bullying and mental health. The trusted adult can be at home, in school or in a sports club.

I apologise for posing all my questions together but I am keen for people to be able to come back in. How is the programme working with the Galway Rape Crisis Centre? People spoke a bit about the ETBs and FET. That is really crucial. Our universities are mainly based in our cities, although we have technological universities now which are great because they have campuses in smaller towns. Are we reaching more people through the centres the ETBs have in more rural areas and smaller towns?

I might come in again at the end but I would say to Professor Crowley that I think the bystander intervention is so important and that we all need to take an active part. It is not solely about the perpetrator and the person who experiences this but about everyone surrounding them as well. We all have a role to play. She might comment on that and the new course. I will let Dr. MacNeela start and others might have time to take the other questions.

Dr. Pádraig MacNeela

On inspectors and the inspectorate and how that might work, the last thing one wants is schools dreading a visit or to be monitored. The way we have seen this work in higher education is for the HEA to take the lead in establishing the standards. Both Professor Crowley and I worked on the consent framework in 2019. That led to the implementation programming that the HEA centre leads. Now each university each year has to report back on a set of key indicators, but they are large institutions. I am talking about something that would be doable by schools. I think there are comparisons. For example, in each of the higher education institutions we have cross-disciplinary cross-faculty committee so everyone can work together on agreed goals. Sometimes there are benefits to that - there are lots of experts etc. - and sometimes there are disadvantages, for instance, where people are coming from completely different areas and you might never see each other except at that meeting. A school is a community. We need to look at the ways that schools can regulate themselves and have self-evaluation processes whereby senior management are represented. Teachers with a special interest in SPHE, student representation and parental representation can combine to agree and identify what they want the school to look like in terms of the programming, not only in the classrooms but also the posters, the information, the procedures and information sharing that is taking place.

The challenge is that principals in schools have so much coming at them and there is so much they need to do. Practically, how does Dr. MacNeela see this happening? Can he share an example of how a secondary school he has worked with has implemented something like this?

Dr. Pádraig MacNeela

We have coverage in a large number of schools where individual teachers are co-operating with us. We are working with a smaller number of schools as case studies or pilots in order to show how this is possible. Ultimately we want a step-by-step simple self-evaluation process where communication is key.

Dr. Siobhán O'Higgins

When we work with DEIS schools, it is about working with everybody from the principal to the secretary and janitor. We have done whole-school workshops with everyone in attendance. In one school, 45 people attended an afternoon workshop which was tabled for three hours but went on for four hours, and nobody left. That was good. It involved looking at the issues and assessing how confident they would feel in dealing with those issues if someone disclosed them. It involved considering positive ways to give young people the skills they need to be able to communicate with each other positively. As well as understanding the negatives, one also has to go for the positives. As every young person goes from being a child to being an adult, they want to know how to explore and express their sexuality in safe, mutually enjoyable and consensual ways. All parents want their children to make them grandparents eventually - not now but eventually - and it is a question of how they explore that with their children. It is about working with everybody. It could be about someone telling a secretary that they could not come in the previous day because something happened at home and how they deal with that.

Dr. Pádraig MacNeela

There is essentially a tiered level of engagement. For some people, attending an awareness session could be enough to prompt them to direct on to somebody else. We need to be able to go up through the tiers and to someone who has received some training or is a contact point with a professional in trauma-informed care. There is a cost and an investment but what is the cost of not doing this?

We know from Dr. MacNeela's report that 66% of students had experienced offensive sexist remarks and so on.

Do the witnesses have any final points?

Ms Sinéad McGrath

The Senator raised accreditation for teachers, especially within the FET sector. They tell me that if something is accredited and is at a QQI level, they have to have buy-in from senior management to allow them time to attend this training so it can reach the students and learners. That time is a huge problem. It has to be at the very top level of policy.

Professor Louise Crowley

To echo what my colleagues from Galway have said, I would make a couple of points on the schools' responses if this was imposed on them. We know that students are looking for this. I get direct emails from young men in particular, if they hear me on the radio talking about the programme, asking if we could bring this to their school. I think we underestimate the students' need and desire for it. We also must recognise that there are disclosures and incidents happening in school and the teachers are very vulnerable. They want to help but they can over-help and promise things that cannot happen. Equally, they can say very damaging things entirely unintentionally. My experience with schools is that they absolutely welcome it. I agree with the points made by Dr. MacNeela that what we have encountered are school champions, that is, teachers who actively pursue this. When you have those teachers who will look at rolling it out, it is really important that everybody else who could be potentially in receipt of the disclosure is supported. The minute we start delivering training, young people start saying things like "This happened to me and I never knew it", "I thought it was my fault", "I did not consent", and they come forward. We have to be very careful in terms of risk management when we respond.

There are just a couple of other very quick things. With regard to mental health, another key element of the training is supporting young people to be allies. We know from national and international research that young people are more likely to tell another young person. What do you do if you are 15 and your friend tells you they have been sexually assaulted? That person is also suffering and dealing with that. We need to empower them with the language and capacity to be pathways, to know where to go and provide them with information on how to support others to support themselves and to get to the necessary resources.

Regarding the one trusted adult, I could not agree more. That is why this training is important. I know it is beyond this committee's remit but we have been in sports clubs and youth groups and we have one trusted adult coming forward to deliver that.

On the community piece, we work with Nenagh as a town. We have been in the schools. A wonderful man called Marney O’Regan contacted me about it. It is in the whole of Nenagh town, if you were to drive down. It it is called Choose Respect and it is in all the shops, chemists, businesses and schools, and on the sporting field. Has the Senator seen them? They have these big banners.

Professor Louise Crowley

The whole community has bought into it. Then if something happens, people will turn around and say that is the behaviour they do not want. It is that collective raising of the voice of objection, which means that what is normalised is the expectation of respect rather than the silence that encourages and facilitates any kind of false consensus that such behaviour is okay. We see it happening in the community and broader society context and it is really powerful to see it, from the young to the old.

Well done. Well said. I thank the witnesses very much. Hopefully they will have an opportunity at the end to come back in again.

I am so privileged to go out to schools and to be invited in to be a guest speaker in the programmes in some schools around active consent, gender equality etc. I remember working with the Donegal Rape Crisis Centre two years ago around active consent in schools. It told me it was underfunded and did not know if it would be able to roll it out the next year to transition year students.

Even listening to some of the speakers today, it is clear that we have come a long way from a little Catholic one-way country, even in the last ten or five years. I remember that because I was a member of the Traveller community, I did not have to do sex education in school. That is still the norm today in the education system for Travellers and women from other ethnic minority groups. How do we reach those young women? We have seen comments lately from men saying not to be educating their children around sex education. This is what they are saying. They want to take that away from our children. We have seen it with the libraries in Cork etc. How do we embed active consent in our education system and normalise it? How do we make it part of Ireland's culture? We are no longer that little traditional Catholic country any more. We are a multinational and multicultural country, or I think we are anyway.

In some communities, men are here and women are still there, unfortunately. That is not culture. That is inequality within communities. How does the programme reach young vulnerable women from minority groups that have those cultural barriers? I will probably get ate for talking about this, even at this committee. I know those barriers are still there. It is okay for Traveller men to speak about sex but it is not okay for Traveller women. How do we make sure that Muslim women, Traveller women, women from minority groups, young women and men from these groups are included and give them equal footing in the class, instead of saying that as part of their culture they do not need to know about sex education? Obviously, men and women and all that kind of stuff, no matter what culture you are from, has an impact. That is around the cultural aspect. How do we break down those barriers for people from minority groups, especially where women are treated less than men? What do we need going forward to make it acceptable in schools? Instead of getting the response of "Do not learn my child", how do we open up parents' minds and say "Look, your children are going to be having sex once they are past 15 or 16 and that is the reality"? How do we make it safe for young girls, young boys and non-binary people etc.?

I very much welcome the shift in the education system in the last five years, what is being done by rape crisis centres in general and at a local level in Donegal and Galway, for example. They are going above and beyond in breaking down those barriers, which are not easy to break down. It is not easy at all, particularly if it is only one parent who does not want their child educated making a big deal out of it. We care so much about our children. We have seen an awful lot lately around our children's future and blaming people from marginalised communities for attacking young women. I again thank the witnesses for coming in today. Any suggestions would be very welcome for how we can include women from minority groups in the active consent conversation. I am sorry I went on a bit.

Dr. Pádraig MacNeela

One response to the Senator's point would be our partners in consent education, where they are working with Pavee Point. They have been on a journey with them with the programme that began in Galway five years ago or more. That has progressed into what they now call consent education. It was integral for them to work with Pavee Point to figure out how to take this material and make sure it is culturally relevant. There are examples like that. That is why we are saying we need to share all of this kind of best practice. We would rather be working with consent education on the difficulties rather than having every group work individually. There is great learning taking place with groups like that and we need to be able to share and understand how we do that.

Cultural diversity more broadly is something that comes into the university context because there such an emphasis now in colleges on international students. That is something we have looked at in our international student programming. We have asked ourselves if we should be taking the same materials and just adopting them so they are more culturally relevant or if people from different cultures need to have different types of programming. We have come to the conclusion that we just need to work harder to make it more inclusive and have the one voice and one message.

That gets us to think and reflect critically, so it is a good journey to be on. Ms McGrath has probably seen how diversity and inclusion are being considered in further education.

Ms Sinéad McGrath

Yes. Some of the teachers worry a lot about this. They worry about whether they will offend somebody and about who will be allowed to attend. Our approach is very much about normalising the conversation, the view being that if one is part of the centre for education, it entails holistic education. We find that people come, especially in respect of further education and training because one is reaching rural areas. One outreach event I attended was run over three weeks because those concerned were really delving into different areas of the workshop. One of the learners in attendance had friends who were waiting for the next instalment. They were not able to go because they were not in the education system but they were waiting for the learning of the day. I said that is what success looks like. While a person might not have attended the workshop, a friend did and shared the knowledge. We very much have an approach of including everybody. We really try our best to research. In everything we have done in the further education and training sector, we have adapted our resources because of 16-year-old learners who might say what is not reaching them or that they do not understand something or think something is suitable. We try our best to be as inclusive as possible but you have to normalise. I ask the teachers how they will make a difference or make cultural change if they keep thinking about whether such a person will be upset or not be included. Accessibility is sometimes the issue.

The Department needs to consider that because active consent includes every single child in the school. It is a matter of having the conversations with the parents as well, which is really important.

On funding, Donegal Rape Crisis Centre was doing active consent training in some schools for a year but could not roll it out to other schools. The younger we can reach the children – at 15 or 16, for example – the better for them in university, etc.

Ms Sinéad McGrath

We would give it all the resources to make it sustainable. We will update it year on year. That is all funded currently. The train-the-trainer model is such that the resources can be shared and used-----

Dr. Pádraig MacNeela

There is an expense and schools have to find the time for the teachers to attend the training. Anything we design and develop is free, but it is really a question of how the schools can avail of it. While they might once have been able to avoid this type of training - doing it was nearly voluntary - it is now written into the SPHE curriculum. It is just going to have to happen. It is only through partnership and collaboration that we are going to discover the answers.

Ms Celine Griffin

I have a final comment on that. We are talking about attitudes, beliefs and values, and we are all trying to establish a level of normal where everyone understands what consent and sexual harassment are. Children talk to each other in the playground or in their social groups and educate one another, and that is the value of these programmes. The conversations continue outside the classroom. We are all seeking funding but a key funding objective is to reach hard-to-reach cohorts. Everyone has access to a phone and social media, so it is about being the other voice and having champions from certain ethnic minority groups who can be that voice and be visible on social media. We are on a path but certainly more work needs to be done in this area. We are all excited to keep on going.

It a case of looking at where we are today rather than ten or 15 years ago.

Professor Louise Crowley

Embedding and normalising the thinking within every school makes it the starting point for what people do. When embedded, it is more difficult to challenge because it is what is expected. Having this type of education ten or 15 years ago or when I was going to school was a no-no. We need to flip that completely so the education is what everybody gets. Then there will be a realisation that it is positive. The feedback from students going home and their having the conversations are in themselves very valuable. As Ms Griffin said, if when talking to one another students have the language and correct information as opposed to the toxic information they may currently be getting, that is when the magic learning happens. We can share what we know and give the students the tools and language, but when they endorse good behaviour, allyship and support for one another, they are suddenly in a much more comfortable environment in which they can demand and receive respect from one another. It is a very mutual arrangement. If we as educators have the platform to give them these tools and the education, we can leave it to them to know better, do better and get better.

I thank the witnesses.

I have a question. As the witnesses are probably aware, the Minister, Deputy Foley, announced the establishment of new education and mental health practitioner posts and a pilot in primary schools. This was recommended by this committee following a visit to the UK's National Health Service and Department for Education. Where can the witnesses feed in regarding the role of practitioners in the delivery of consent programmes and take the lead in developing a whole-school culture of consensual behaviour? Where can practitioners feed into what the witnesses are doing?

Dr. Pádraig MacNeela

We are promoting that. We have to move away from the idea of a single teacher being a lone voice. In higher education, the counsellors and psychotherapists are the people who give a sense of security such that we can push on and do some of the education with the young people, because we know there is support and people who are professionally qualified to give these. This is essential. It is a confidence-building measure and it enables schools to feel they are covered. As much as people want to endorse the positive learning of young people, schools will worry about the issues of trauma, the retraumatisation that can occur and difficult issues coming up. This is currently a barrier. Once we have the professionals and practitioners in question in place, it will be facilitatory. It is essential.

We see from the college experience that the practitioners often feel very overburdened. Many of them do our one-semester professional development module, a level 9 module that we offer. I am always struck by the sense of personal responsibility among people who come to us and work with us, in addition to the burden based on the fact that they cannot unknow what they have come to know. They often take on too much. Those people themselves need to be in support networks and have outlets and professional supervision. Just because one is a mental health practitioner does not mean one is also equipped to work in the area of sexual trauma. Therefore, the practitioners will need additional training. This points to pathways and the question of how it will be achieved by way of bite-size chunks and in-work learning that could be accredited and validated. There are several ways. Universities know how to achieve these ends but, again, it would require additional resources to put the infrastructure in place.

Professor Louise Crowley

It is about developing a support network for the practitioners to allow them to support schools and have best practice shared throughout the country so there will be no geographical limitations or lottery regarding the supports available. The collective approach is to be commended.

Dr. Pádraig MacNeela

As we have seen in the universities, because of the Minister's implementation plan we are now seeing appointments to specialised posts in this area. I cannot emphasise enough the confidence, capacity-building and infrastructure that are brought into the university when it is known there is a specialist rather than somebody doing their best who does not necessarily have all the answers.

Ms Sinéad McGrath

Training is one element but support in the roll-out is a major issue for those concerned.

Dr. Pádraig MacNeela

I agree.

Ms Sinéad McGrath

We had 1,400 further education and training staff attend a training opportunity, but the next step is to reach the students and learners.

It is only when they go to roll it out that they will often email me with questions or queries. To reach those next steps is hugely important. We need to keep looking after these staff, not just train them up before disappearing in a puff of smoke. They need to know we are there to support, look after and guide them. We also aim to set up advisory committees with those staff to help.

Ms Eve McDowell

Thinking back to the point made about a new subject being introduced with drama and filmmaking, that is a really good opportunity. Sometimes when consent is set in one subject or stuck within SPHE, we miss the whole-community and societal approach to tackling issues. I have just finished a master's degree in public advocacy and activism taught through the school of film. We had a module in which every week we had a different topic. Cowboys and Indians, for example, looked at colonialism. Through film, pop culture and social media, we see how rape culture has become so normalised and how to deconstruct those messages and move to a consent culture.

Not every young person is in school. I dropped out of college myself. Many people struggle in college, which can be a really hard time for people, so reaching them through social media is very important for us to direct them to the consent hub. It can just be a quick message. We have these little reminder posts. For example, one post says "Reminder: It is not your fault". We do not know who might need to hear that message on a given day.

We also look at the education sector to make sure we reach as many people as possible. It is better not to have the matter as one daunting, consent-sexual violence class. It should be embedded within other subjects as well. The film and drama class would be a very good opportunity because that is how I got more familiar with the active consent programme. I saw the play and could not believe how amazing it was. I wish I had seen it when I was younger. I am delighted we are touring secondary schools now because it is a really interesting initiative.

Even for youth groups outreach is important. The non-formal education in those settings can be more effective in some cases.

Professor Louise Crowley

On the point about specialists, we brought teachers together every six months in a large group to allow then to speak to each other. This goes back to the network piece. We can provide them with the updated materials, lectures and training. We find that, facilitated by us, they also value getting together themselves. They share the experience of delivering different elements of the training and issues that came up for them. They really value this and they also connect with each other privately in order to support each other. In our experience, the teachers have been hugely positive. In August, I was called to a school in Mallow by a friend from the GAA club who said all the teachers wanted to hear what I had to say. I did a three-hour workshop. It is important that we do not underestimate the teachers' interest in being a support because they are living this and they feel much more empowered and safe when they have the information and the language.

I will allow members who wish to do so to ask one brief question each.

Ms McDowell spoke about the new subjects, which I wanted to ask about so I thank her for that. The active consent programme has been in place for the past five years. I know Ms McDowell has been doing evidence-based research since 2013 and probably the same applies to the bystander intervention programme. What are the targets for the next five years? There are already 70,000 first-year college students, 1,000 parents online and 4,000 pupils in secondary schools. That is what has happened. What is planned for the next five years? I address the question to Dr. MacNeela and Professor Crowley.

Dr. Pádraig MacNeela

On the figures for uptake in higher education, almost all higher education institutions are working with this, so there is a level of consistency there at the orientation level when students are entering college. That is good but there is more to do. We want more depth and learning. This year we are starting to pilot a champions training. This will ensure there is a cohort of student leaders who can take it to the next level. We want to see those students acting as facilitators and being actively involved in training. The higher education element is at a certain point in terms of its development. The number of pupils in post-primary schools is good but there are so many more who need to be reached.

There are 1 million primary and post-primary pupils. Even in Ballinasloe where I am from, which is a town of 7,000 people, there are 1,000 primary and 1,000 post-primary students.

Dr. Pádraig MacNeela

That is why consent education is another important area. There are five facilitators and staff members in different parts of the country working on this. We realise that we have to combine and collaborate. In our vision, we would really like the space to be able to focus on working with boys and young men. That is really essential.

Regarding our funding, we are very grateful that we are supported by a philanthropic foundation so we have funding for the next four years. Once an organisation has some funding, it has a basis to pursue other revenue streams. We recently received a system performance grant from the HEA. That will keep is very active in universities for the next three years. We are a resource for the education sector. Whatever doors people want to open, we will happily help them. The resources will need to come from the schools, the teachers and those specialised posts.

Never say there is enough money.

Professor Louise Crowley

I can relate to that about not having enough money.

It is really about valuing the active consent programme and the other programmes. We see the Rape Crisis Centre going into schools doing work. Some of those programmes are only working from year to year. Overall, the question is how do we invest. This is something the committee will keep pushing.

From being a member of this committee for the last two years, I see that we expect an awful lot from our educators. We expect them to be counsellors as well. How to train up some teachers in each school to enable them to deliver to all the students?

Professor Louise Crowley

In terms of our reach, we currently have a transition year programme which is delivered to fifth-year students and sixth-year students if a school has the capacity. Our funding ran out at Easter this year, but we continue to do it. This is not my job, so to speak. I am a professor in the school of law. It is just Celine and I on the team and our vision is to adopt the programme for junior cycle. We were contacted by a teacher who asked us to do something for first-year students because they were very vulnerable. Students were getting requests for nude pictures and they did not know what to do. They wanted to fit in and the teacher was struggling to help the students. We are very aware that this training on how to identify problematic behaviour and learning how to respond to support each other is needed at the very latest from first year in secondary schools. If we can find funding, our vision is to adapt it. This can probably done for every year in secondary school. It is important that we speak to their lived reality. The programme for fourth-year students is not suitable for first-year students. Each cohort needs to be able to work out what their experiences are.

Regarding the reach, we are currently delivering a pilot supported by the Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sports and Media to schools, youth clubs and sporting organisations for 16- to 24-year-olds working the area of the night-time economy. We see beyond education into the areas where either young people are not in school or where they are in a club or sporting culture. It is important to tap into these areas to support them in ensuring that they are safe places. We are building up extensive research on the response to the training. This is making a really significant difference to young people's ability to recognise what is not okay because so much problematic behaviour has been normalised. They all get unwanted, unsolicited images sent to their phones and they think this is normal. I have had students tell me they were groped in a nightclub and they think it was normal. It is about them relearning what respect is. Once they know this, they can recognise problematic behaviour.

When they have the collective learning, they can support each other to reject such behaviour with their voice becoming strong again. We deliver training and orientation to 3,500 students and are working with all third level institutions. The appetite is significant and we have tremendous vision for where this can go with young people in second and third level but also beyond the school environment. It is all education. We want to reach them where they are at and ensure the training we deliver is appropriate. Our workshops are always bespoke. If we go to a rugby club, we reflect the lived experience of rugby players. The same applies if we visit a youth club. We work out our scenarios in advance to make sure the material is relevant. It is about that huge reach. Once you have that conversation happening and it spills out into clubs and families, people will feel safer in demanding better.

I thank the witnesses for coming before us here today and sharing their insights, expert knowledge and expertise. On behalf of the committee, I commend all of them on the efforts to reach out to students across the education system. The work they do has a huge impact on the ground. They might not realise it, but it has a huge impact and we very much appreciate it. They will have taken that from the members in their line of questioning today.

The joint committee adjourned at 12.40 p.m. until 11 a.m. on Tuesday, 21 November 2023.
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