I welcome the Minister for Transport, Deputy Séamus Brennan, who has given us so much help on the matters pertaining to insurance and the committee's great concern about the high premiums. Through his good work, and through the work of the Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Harney, and the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy McDowell, the Departments have brought Bills before the House to make possible much of the progress made. Everyone in the industry has recognised the commitment of the Government. It is with great pleasure I welcome the Minister and his officials today. I invite him to make an up-to-date report on how his work is progressing.
Reform of Irish Insurance Market: Presentations.
I thank you, Chairman, and other members of the committee for the work that has been done on trying to reduce insurance costs. It is important work and most people admire the effort the committee has made in this regard.
As the committee will be aware, there is a major link between road safety and the cost of insurance. To the extent that our roads become safer, motor insurance costs can come down. There are already signs that there is downward pressure in that area. In talking about road safety, one must adopt a strategic approach, rather than an ad hoc one. One must take a broader view because it requires many agencies and various strategies to work in tandem.
The effect of the penalty points system has been useful. It was designed to try to change the culture of driving in Ireland. It is not designed to be a money raiser. The penalty points system is designed to change driving behaviour and there are already signs that it is working well, despite recent numerical setbacks. The evidence available to me indicates that it is so.
Road death statistics for the 17 months since the introduction of penalty points show that 100 fewer people were killed on the roads compared to the preceding 17 months. If the system saved only one life, it was worth doing but a total of 100 lives is a lot. I am uncomfortable about the penalty points system being attached in a bare way to road deaths as such. It is meant to change behaviour over the medium to long term and reduce road deaths due to better behaviour on the roads. It is not appropriate to tick off road death statistics month by month and thereby assume that penalty points are working. Penalty points are working and 144,000 drivers have already received them. Recently, I attended the Seanad for a debate on road safety and a number of Senators told me openly that they had received penalty points. As a result they were beginning to notice speed limits, in which people did not take much interest until the introduction of the points system.
It is hard to discuss road deaths and we all tend to do so coldly. It is an emotional subject, however, as anyone who has ever visited a family in which there has been a road death will know. The emotional trauma is horrendous.
As president of the EU Transport Council, I recently invited the transport Ministers of the 25 EU states to Dublin. In the old 15 member EU the figure for road deaths last year was 42,000. One can imagine the effect of an Irish town with a similar population being wiped out in just one year. As president of the EU Transport Council, I have asked my fellow Ministers to work on a range of strategies to try to reduce the annual road death toll in Europe.
The new road strategy for the period 2004-06, which I will publish shortly, will target speeding, drink driving, seat-belt use, pedestrian safety and motorbikes. Motorbikes form a substantial part of the road death toll, as does drink driving. Approximately 40% of all road deaths are drink related, which is a substantial amount and some 20% of road deaths involve motorcyclists, so if we can tackle both areas it will keep thepressure down.
The Government recently approved a number of changes designed to save lives as well as drive down insurance costs. They are doing that because there will be fewer claims. One or two companies already offer lower premia to motorists who do not have penalty points on their driving licences. I welcome those moves and I have asked other insurance companies to consider doing that as soon as possible. They cannot stand back to see how it works but must be a part of it in order for it to work.
The Government has decided to proceed with random breath testing, which will be a major new weapon for the Garda Síochána. Some 13,000 breath tests were conducted by gardaí last year, which is roughly equal to the number of public houses in the country. Random breath testing will make a difference because it means that gardaí will have stronger powers, and will not have to form an opinion which, legally, they currently have to do. Any intrusion on civil liberties is well worth it in this case because of the horrific road fatality figures with which we have had to deal.
We are pressing ahead with the new speed limit structure, which was covered in the media today. We are increasing speed limits in some places where they are patently not sensible, while reducing them in other areas. The main change is that we are reducing the speed limit from 60 mph to 50 mph on back roads, regional roads and country roads, which make up half the network. That is where the road deaths are occurring so that is where we have to take the main action.
We are pressing ahead with outsourcing speed cameras. The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform and I are working on that and in the months ahead we will see such cameras starting to appear on our roads. I have also proposed a comprehensive package of measures to cover driver licensing and testing. We are establishing a new driver standards and testing authority which, for the first time, will be responsible for improving driving standards in Ireland. It will also tackle the issue of long-term reliance on provisional licences. That package of measures has almost been completed.
We will have to roll out the full system of penalty points and get the Garda Síochána computer systems up and running. Despite the legal difficulties, I am determined to make progress on the traffic corps. However, I want to caution against people feeling that all of a sudden a traffic corps will solve all the problems, including traffic jams, speeding and drink driving. Such a corps will help but it is not the only solution. It is part of a package and I am planning to press ahead with it fairly quickly.
The heads of the Road Traffic Bill were approved by the Government on 27 April. I am doing my best to try to get it into the House before the summer recess, although that will be a tight schedule. The Bill will outlaw the use of hand-held mobile phones, introduce the outsourcing of speed cameras, and introduce random drink testing. A section of the legislation will outlaw the sale of motor cars to minors, so it will become an offence to sell or supply cars to anyone under 16. That section is necessary because we have seen some horrific situations in the past. I am planning to move on that matter as quickly as I can.
I have signed regulations which will allot five penalty points to people without insurance. There are probably 100,000 people driving without insurance around the country, which is 5% of the total. Their bills are levied on the remaining 95% of us. The penalty points constitute just one deterrent, but if a case goes to court a person can go to prison.
Another weapon for the Garda is the power to impound vehicles. I am informed that 1,000 cars per month are currently being impounded. The Garda Síochána has managed to procure locations in which to keep the vehicles, although they will have to do more in that area. It is only fair that I should acknowledge the work of the former Minister for the Environment, Deputy Howlin, in this regard. He introduced this section back in 1994 in the relevant legislation. It is only in the last year or so that we have dusted it down and got it working.
The National Roads Authority is making a substantial investment in improving our roads. Some €8 billion will be spent over the next five years, or over €1.2 billion per annum. As the NRA is building better and safer roads, it is making a major contribution to reducing insurance costs. The evidence is clear that, by and large, we do not have serious accidents on new roads — they tend to occur on old, rural back-roads.
I compliment this committee on its work. The range of measures I have outlined arises from the work of a Cabinet sub-committee which meets regularly, comprising the Tánaiste, the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform and me. Members will be aware of the work being done in this area by the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform and the Tánaiste. The combination of the three — road safety, from my point of view, legal changes, from the point of view of the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, and the PIAB and other changes, from the point of view of the Tánaiste — will help us push down insurance costs. I am of the opinion that we are beginning to make an impact in that regard. I again thank the committee for its excellent work.
I thank the Minister for updating the committee. Following our first interim report, when does he hope to introduce the legislation we are expecting from his Department which will be the final of four Bills promised by the Government? We will be able to provide all the support he will need in respect of getting the Bill through Committee Stage. The legislation in question relates to driving licences and driving schools. The committee recommended in its report that a dedicated traffic corps within the Garda Síochána be established. Has the Government made a decision to establish such a corps?
There are two Bills in the works. The first is the Road Traffic Bill 2004 which was approved by the Cabinet on 27 April and which I hope to put through the Dáil before the summer recess. The second is the driving standards authority Bill. The text of this has been signed off by the Cabinet. I am not sure if I will be able to introduce it before the summer. However, it is ready and I hope to proceed with it. In establishing the new authority, the Bill will make provision, for the first time, for the registration of driving instructors. That development has been long overdue. The authority will be responsible for registering driving instructors and ensuring that they are qualified and trained. It will also be charged that instructors meet necessary entry requirements, to the satisfaction of an independent authority, before entering the profession.
Will that be enacted by the end of the year?
Yes. The Chairman also inquired about the traffic corps. I issued a warning about such a corps being seen as a panacea. There are a number of complicated issues here relating to power of arrest, the admission of evidence and the extent to which civilians can issue instructions to motorists. The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform and I are trying to resolve those issues. I acknowledge that there has been a delay on this matter but I am determined to crack it. There are serious legal obstacles but I am determined to circumvent them.
A sub-committee of this committee may travel to one or two foreign destinations to see how such corps are working there. We understand that they have enjoyed great success in a number of countries that have been brought to our attention.
I am very aware of the fact that this body, the Joint Committee on Enterprise and Small Business, is considering these matters from a mercenary perspective. However, the road safety aspect of our deliberations is an issue which impacts on people's lives in much more than monetary terms. I appreciate the Minister's comments in respect of the impact of deaths and injuries on our roads. The Minister has announced new legislation to establish a new driving standards authority. I take a somewhat jaundiced view of this. For a considerable period — possibly 15 years or even back to Sylvester Barrett's time in office — we have not put in place a system to process driving test applications in a speedy manner and ensure that the vast majority of drivers on our roads have actually passed the test. We are still some distance away from having such a system. I would be much happier to hear from the Minister concrete proposals to drastically reduce the waiting period for tests and resits, rather than hearing about a new authority that might be established before the end of the year. What specific immediate plans does he have to reduce the volume of drivers — 25% of all motorists — with provisional licences? Some of these individuals have been driving on provisional licences for 20 years.
As regards the new authority, when I was Minister for the Environment we established a voluntary code of driver testing. The Minister is now proposing to place this on a statutory basis. How will that work? Will all existing driving schools have to qualify and be certified? Have the details of this matter been worked out?
My third question relates to the Minister's comment on the legal difficulties associated with the traffic corps. I was unaware that such difficulties existed. Perhaps he could provide details of the latter in order that members might better understand the position.
The Minister, the Chairman and Deputy Howlin all mentioned the possibility of a dedicated traffic corps. Has the Government reached a conclusion on this matter? The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform informed us some time ago — he may have been speaking on a personal basis, I cannot recall — that the Government was opposed to such a corps because the force and the territory are too small and that it was not necessary. He was concerned about demarcation issues within the force and he did not want it to proceed. However, the Minister who is present today has indicated that there are legal difficulties involved. Perhaps he will clarify the position.
Is the regulation of driving schools and young drivers' licensing and training encompassed within the driving standards authority Bill?
The waiting list for driving tests is approximately 120,000 at present. There are 367,807——
What is the longest time a person has to wait for a test? The numbers are irrelevant; time is the issue.
Eight or nine months.
That is a long period.
It was reduced to ten weeks in 2002. I must take some responsibility because I made it clear that I was not prepared to oversee a situation where approximately 20% of all motorists were driving on provisional licences and relying on them permanently. When I said that, the people who were using provisional licences in this way joined the queue. That is why the waiting list is so long. People are trying to get into the system before the Oireachtas can enact stronger legislation. They cannot be blamed for that but my issuing a warning has led to an increase in the list and the waiting time involved. A total of 4,000 tests are being completed each week. That is a considerable outturn. There are eight or nine vacancies among the ranks of the testers which we are hoping to fill. We are seeking an additional bonus scheme which will hopefully help us reduce the numbers on the list. I am of the opinion that the demand for tests has peaked and, with the extra staff and the new authority, will begin to level off.
We have flushed out a large number of people who were planning to drive for the remainder of their lives on provisional licences. These individuals will now have to sit the test, which is good. There are 4,000 tests each week and if 50% of those taking them pass, that means 2,000 fully qualified drivers come on to the roads. That is quite an outturn.
There are a number of issues, such as legal and structural, attaching to the traffic corps. If we go outside the Garda and recruit traffic corps members and put them on motorbikes, the major legal issue is whether they can arrest people they stop or whether they can summon, caution or bring them to court.
If we enact the law, they will be able to do so.
Moving from members of the Garda having these powers to a civilian corps having Garda powers is a major step.
I had assumed that we were talking about a police corps.
I remind members that in its interim report the committee recommended that the corps be under the aegis of the Garda Síochána.
The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform and I have been discussing this matter. A traffic corps will do a couple of jobs. Apart from enforcing the law there are the matters of moving the traffic and congestion, and I am anxious that a traffic corps should deal with traffic congestion as well as implementing the law. In that regard it may be necessary to have civilians attached to the corps. It would be unrealistic to have gardaí do all these jobs. In most countries there are civilians working under the police and it is that hybrid we are looking for, civilians working to the gardaí. That is the best mixture as civilians could manage traffic on a daily basis, while the gardaí could concentrate on enforcement.
The other thing we have to be careful about is something that may have happened with other police forces. There is evidence from around the world that when a traffic corps is set up, involving perhaps 20% of the police force, when the other 80% see a traffic offence they feel it is not their job but the job of the traffic corps, so one ends up with less policing rather than more. This will not be a panacea for everything but it will help.
The two countries mentioned here were Australia and the Netherlands. The experience, we are told, was that when a traffic corps was set up crime fell because criminals have to get from A to B. It assists in more ways than in just reducing speed.
I welcome the Minister. He is a man of action and I compliment him on his work on road safety and insurance, which were big issues facing us. His idea of reducing speed limits on small roads is very welcome. My home is on a small road and it made no sense that I could do 60 mph on that road and also do 60 mph on the bypass at Athlone. It did not add up. I compliment him on that change.
The Minister said he would tackle the motorbike issue, and it is about time that was done. What is the actual speed at which lorries are allowed to drive? How safe are these lorries on the roads? There seems to be a problem with lorries turning over.
Trucks.
Trucks are overturning by the dozen on our roads. The Minister mentioned the NRA spending €8 billion over the next five years, which I welcome. I am based in Loughrea, where a bypass is due to go ahead; if that had been built years ago it would have saved many lives. We have had two deaths and three injuries recently and we look forward to the improvement on roads as this will reduce the volume of death on the roads.
The proposal to stop 16-year-olds buying cars will definitely save lives, as this has been happening for years, with young lads buying cars. I compliment the Minister on this move. However, surely the training of young drivers should be introduced in the schools, possibly as part of the leaving certificate. It is training for life and it is very necessary to be able to drive safely and to appreciate road safety.
In 2000 I asked a sports psychologist to talk to the Wexford senior hurling team. The psychologist, who was about 58, spoke to the players about attitude. The oldest player was 32, but the psychologist said he would outlive at least one of the players, as one of them would be killed in a traffic accident in the near future. The following day three young hurlers from Carlow were killed, one of them an inter-county hurler. In my days on the Wexford junior football team we got to the All-Ireland semi-final against Kerry and a young man called Kinsella was killed on the way home from that semi-final. It is obvious that road deaths are a major issue for young people. As this is the case, I have a suggestion to deal with them.
Education for young people has changed. For example, we now have the leaving certificate vocational preparation programme. It is not very academic but practical. It should be possible to introduce a module, where youngsters who are not under pressure of examinations like other leaving certificate students, can do the theory test for the driving licence. It should also be possible to introduce road safety as part of another programme, the CSPE or civic social and political education, and as part of the transition year curriculum. I have made that suggestion to the Minister for Education and Science as well as to this committee. Schools are a great way to transmit a culture and here we need a change of attitude and a change of culture.
My other question relates to Deputy Howlin's comments on the traffic corps. Canvassing for the local elections last Saturday — I am sure Deputy Howlin has similar experiences in Castlebridge — one of the problems I encountered was youngsters engaging in road racing late at night. Four of them took over a farmer's field for the purpose. I do not know who is responsible for dealing with that and whether we have enough gardaí but it has to be addressed, either through a dedicated traffic corps or different use of current Garda resources. We are not winning that battle and I am interested in the Minister's views on it.
The national speed limit for trucks is 50 mph, so they are not legal if they are going faster. The Loughrea bypass looks good.
It was rejected in 1991.
Deputies Callanan and Dempsey both referred to education and I support that point completely. The Minister for Education and Science and I have discussed this recently and the National Curriculum Council recently commissioned a study of this area. The report suggested that modules of the type mentioned would be included and the council is looking at the report. I am confident it will recommend that the Minister for Education and Science provide such modules in transition year. I fully support that and the Minister for Education and Science and I have discussed it at length.
The CSPE would be the programme for this as we are surely talking about good citizenship.
The new authority is not just a testing authority but a standards authority. I have included a provision in the Bill under which the authority will have to raise the standard of driving in the country and any Government will have to take that seriously. I see that as a new pressure point, as for the first time there will be an authority charged with improving driving standards. However, that is an issue for later in the year.
I congratulate the Minister on his success to date. However, why are accident and death rates going up again after a very successful introduction of penalty points? What action is necessary to counteract that? As for driver testing, I echo Deputy Howlin's point. For as long as we can remember, we have had long queues and waiting lists for the driving test and some people have been provisional drivers for ten or 12 years. I am confused as to why the driving test must remain a State function. It appears the waiting list is driven by a shortage of available testers. I assume freelance testers could be brought in if the Department really wanted to clear the waiting list. Has that course of action been considered by the Minister? There is a waiting list for the test and a shortage of testers and the obvious way to clear the backlog is to bring in temporary, albeit private, testers.
An issue was raised recently in a Sunday newspaper article about the NCT tests. Apparently, a memo was sent from one centre to another advising it to increase its failure rates. This causes concern to people. While most people are compliant and try to keep their vehicle roadworthy, the idea that the commercial operator of the system is instructing test centres to raise their failure rates is sure to cause annoyance. I have heard people in my constituency say that cars have failed the NCT for rather vexatious reasons.
It may not be politically correct to speak about the issue of speeding fines, something about which there seems to be some annoyance. People feel gardaí are checking speeds in well-known spots where people are not really speeding as they understand it. They may be travelling at 45 mph in a 40 mph zone. The perception is that gardaí are just building up numbers and are not tackling serious breaches of the speeding laws. They are going for the easy target on a junction or corner where people drive slightly over the speed limit. Can the Minister address that issue?
I cycle into work from time to time. What is the policy on bicycle lanes and on the extension of protection to cyclists in urban areas? Cycling accidents and fatalities have been a serious contributor to higher insurance also.
I welcome the Minister and thank him for his great co-operation with this committee on the insurance review. On the matter of a dedicated traffic corps, I would not like to see civilians take on the role of the gardaí. Garda numbers should be increased and we should have a fully integrated traffic corps. I do not want people to be stopped by civilians on bicycles who might want to have a go at them. I have great respect for the Garda Síochána, which is one of my nominating bodies for the Seanad.
On the issue of waiting lists for driving tests, I believe the tests are sometimes severe and that their conditions need review. We want to have quality drivers. Many people here might not pass the driving test under the present conditions. I congratulate the Minister, who passed his test recently.
It was not easy.
The Minister is doing great work. I look forward to seeing him in Scramogue and Rockingham when he is opening the by-passes in Roscommon.
I hope the Minister will discuss the issue of random breath testing with the Garda. Random breath testing on a national primary route seems logical. It is all right to stop a person who is over the limit and driving on a national primary route. I come from a village called Castlecoote, which I hope the Minister will soon visit. The village has three pubs where ordinary decent people go for their pint at night. Frankly, I do not want to see random breath testing in Castlecoote or similar rural areas. We are under enough pressure from the smoking ban which has caused some fall-out as far as the pubs are concerned but the Minister has now allowed the reduction of the blood alcohol limit for drivers to nil — zero tolerance — which will mean the closure of local pubs. I do not mind pointing this out, although it may not be politically correct to do so.
The Senator is not standing in the local elections.
I stand for the ordinary people in rural areas and do not mind saying this, regardless of whether it is politically correct. I agree it is vital that we have zero tolerance on our national primary routes. All our major accidents occur on those routes and there is no room for allowing drivers with any level of alcohol in their blood on those routes. However, in rural areas there should be exemptions. The random testing should apply to national, primary and secondary routes but not on county roads. I ask the Minister to consider that because the rural areas are already under enough pressure. In most rural areas people are responsible when they visit the local pub for refreshment and this is why I make this request. In fairness, the Minister has a balanced view on these issues.
The Minister is right to review speed limits. It is outrageous that some of the limits on the outskirts of Dublin change so quickly from 20 mph to 30 mph and so on up to 70 mph. People are regularly caught driving over the speed limit near the Spa Hotel in Lucan because the limit has switched from 50 mph. The review is welcome. I urge the Minister to keep up the good work. He is open to suggestions and requests.
I too welcome the Minister and thank him and his team for the presentation. It is amazing that despite all the work that has been done, over 40% of accidents are drink related. Whatever measures are introduced, until people think about their actions there will be no change. This is vitally important because the Minister cannot do it alone.
Perhaps some of the appalling accidents are the price we have to pay for affluence. For every car of not so good quality on the road a few years ago, there are now have three or four good quality cars. The volume of traffic has increased dramatically and it is reasonable to expect more accidents. However, many of them could be avoided. It is terrible to hear that 40% of accidents are still drink related.
Are there any figures available for the number of people driving without licences? Several people with provisional licences have come to me to ask about the tests. Some of them are somewhat afraid of sitting the theory test as they may have a learning disability. The thought of the test is difficult for them. I know ten or 11 people currently in this situation. Some of these people have driven for years without accident and do not travel long distances. Can anything be done for them? I also support the idea of driver training in secondary schools.
In my area the waiting list for driver tests was one of the longest in the country. I am grateful to the Minister for the steps he has taken to improve waiting time. The measures he intends to introduce are important. However, no matter which Department is responsible, a vital part of improving safety is persuading people to think about it.
Deputy Lenihan asked me why accident rates have increased again. As I explained in my opening remarks, in the 17 months since the introduction of penalty points there were 100 fewer fatalities than during the previous 17 months. The figures are down on that basis. However, the figures for the past three months are not good; they are up on last year. The first three months of the operation of the penalty points system took place last year and the figures were unusually low. While the accident figures were still lower in the first three months of this year than they were in 1999 and 1998, last year saw the lowest figures for 40 years. The first 12 months of the operation of the penalty points system coincided with the lowest accident rate in 40 years. It is difficult given that benchmark to bring in better figures. Several high-profile and terrible accidents were included in the figures, including the dreadful bus accident on the Dublin quays. There were multiple fatalities involved.
Deputy Conor Lenihan asked about the waiting list for driving tests, which I dealt with earlier. We are seeking to fill vacancies and initiate a bonus scheme to reduce it. I indicated that 4,000 tests were being performed each week and the pressures on the system are of a short-term nature. The curve is beginning to flatten as tests are being pumped and the surge in applications is slowing down. Most people who were there to be flushed out have been.
What about freelance testers? Is there a union problem?
There are many issues involved, including industrial relations. We must also ensure that testers have the correct qualifications. Last year, we asked the authorities in the North of Ireland but they did not have any spare capacity for us. It is not simply a matter of churning out tested people at a rate from 4,000 to 12,000 a week; they must be ready. We should be realistic about the driving test. If one wishes to sit the leaving certificate, one cannot simply apply on an arbitrary day and claim one is ready. One must attend a course of study to prove one is prepared. I wish to remove the idea that simply because one thinks one can pass the test, one should be permitted to sit it next week as if it were an automatic right. In the near future, we will introduce legislation to provide for compulsory training, particularly for motorcyclists. Before one is allowed to sit the test, one will be required to show that one has undergone professional training. We are looking at whether some training may be required for people who are now on their fourth, fifth or sixth provisional licences. It is wrong to focus on simply churning out drivers. The focus must be on putting applicants through the system on the basis of whether they are ready to sit the test having received professional support. The new authority will tackle all of these issues.
Deputy Conor Lenihan also asked about ambushes, as it were, by the Garda on good roads. I announced today that the AA sent me a list of 43 roads. If members know of other roads they wish to bring to the attention of my officials and I, we will certainly consider them. I have asked local authorities to consider the 43 roads and any others which are brought to our attention over the next few weeks to discover if they can see their way to amending speed limits on them. The 43 roads in question were listed in the press today. I would prefer local authorities to amend speed limits themselves as they are empowered to do so. I must be conscious that more and more roads are trans-county in nature and, as such, we must provide some standardisation of speed limits on them.
I take Deputy Conor Lenihan's point about bicycles. We have provided a couple of hundred kilometres of bicycle track over the last few years and I propose to roll out the programme even further. The Deputy was correct to say that many cyclists have been involved in accidents. We are currently considering bicycle safety.
Senator Leyden asked me about the traffic corps, which I think I dealt with. I acknowledge the Senator's view that members of a traffic corps should be gardaí. It is indicative of the difficulty we are having in this area. I examined the provisions in New York recently where there is a range of what they call traffic agents who report to and are supervised by the police though they are not police officers. They do not have powers of arrest, but they have powers to move traffic, which is an important ingredient of traffic management. Traffic movement may be a waste of Garda time.
I acknowledge the Senator's point about random testing. As Deputy Wilkinson said, 40% of road deaths are connected with drink driving, which is why we must tackle the problem head on.
What about country roads?
I take the view that drink driving is drink driving whether it takes place on a mountain top, a motorway, a side road or near a farm gate. It is no longer acceptable, no matter where it takes place. We must change the culture. We are having success in this regard. I have family who are beginning to drive and I notice that across friends and relations, young people would not dream of having a drink before getting into a car. They simply do not do it, yet they have a hell of a good social life. It is not wrecking pubs because they are in them regularly. They make alternative transport arrangements.
I am not advocating that people who are over the limit should drive.
I know what the Senator is saying.
I am asking for a tolerable and reasonable approach to rural living and that we inform ourselves about what is really happening in rural Ireland.
A balanced approach is one I will adopt. Deputy Wilkinson asked me about the driving test and people who find it difficult. The test is an EU requirement and is fairly standard on that basis. We are making every effort to help people who have trouble, particularly with the theory test. I wish to ensure that the theory test is friendly and to provide that people with reading difficulties do not have any fear of it. Systems are being put in place to help people who are nervous about theory tests or who find them difficult. We can help them through the process and remove the fear factor by working with them. We have begun that process through the company which has the contract to carry out the theory test. I am conscious of the problems involved and will ensure that we work with people in this area.
I do not have a figure detailing the number of unlicensed drivers. By definition, we have no way of knowing how many people are driving who never applied to sit the test. Of the 149,000 drivers who have received penalty points, 18,000 do not have licences which we can trace. We suspect that the bulk of those drivers are from the North of Ireland and, as such, may hold licences in that jurisdiction. Some may have no licence, as Deputy Wilkinson said. I reassure the Deputy that I am conscious of the special difficulties of rural Ireland in this area. While we will put transitory measures in place which will help people through the system, I must be firm, definite and determined to ensure that we successfully make the changes required.
I did not receive an answer to one question. The Minister may not have the information. I asked if the failure rates at NCT centres were being enhanced.
No quotas are applied to the national car test. The test must be consistent across testers and test centres. We monitor the results to discover if there are divergences among centres. If these exist, we try to investigate them. Retraining is offered and equipment is re-calibrated. If there are differences from the norm at a test centre, we take action.
This is a specific report. The headquarters of an organisation wrote to a test centre to order it to raise its failure rates. It was publicised in the national press.
There are no predetermined quotas and we expect consistency across testers and test centres. If a centre was out of line, testers and equipment would be examined. While the figures from centres need not be identical, they should be similar.
Before Deputy McHugh speaks, I wish to bring to the attention of the committee a report on a radio programme which has one of the largest daily listenerships. It outlined the frustration of many motorists over roads that will not be improved or have not been improved in the past 25 or 30 years, such as the famous N52 from Nenagh to Dundalk. Motorists are caught in tailbacks of three, four and five miles behind farm vehicles in particular, which are driving at 20 mph. According to what we heard on the radio this morning, the drivers of farm machinery are not permitted to drive on the hard shoulder although the yellow lines are not continuous. Is it possible that anyone driving under 30 miles per hour can use these hard shoulders that no one seems to be using? Could it be considered where there is no evidence that road improvements will take place in the next three or four years and where traffic flows could be improved? It would prevent the significant build-up of frustration and prevent the many high risks being taken by motorists in their daily chore of having to drive from A to B to make ends meet.
The Chairman read my mind very accurately. The last time the Minister was before this committee, we discussed the possibility of introducing bus lanes on national secondary and national primary routes. This is an extension of what the Chairman referred to. It is now accepted that frustration on roads leads to accidents and that people take chances if they are caught behind buses or lorries for long distances. Has the Minister progressed the idea of having bus lanes on national primary and secondary roads, particularly the roads that radiate from Dublin and other cities? On the last occasion we met he stated he wanted to try it out on a pilot basis, perhaps around Dublin. I hope this trial has taken place and that it has had positive results. I hope he is considering other cities in this regard, such as his native city of Galway, and trying to manage the chaos on roads throughout the country.
Lest it be said that this committee is in any way in favour of what Senator Leyden is proposing regarding random breath testing throughout the country, such that there would be a two-tier system of law enforcement, it must be borne in mind that, if it is tobe implemented, it must be implemented uniformly.
Will the Minister comment on the accuracy of reports in today's newspapers that councils are responsible if the speed limits in their respective areas are not changed? I was under the impression that the National Roads Authority had responsibility for national secondary and primary routes and that, as a consequence, it is also responsible for speed limits on those routes. The slant in the media reports would suggest that the councils are responsible for speed limits on these roads.
On the issue raised by the Chairman on overtaking on country roads, I have asked the National Roads Authority and, through it, the councils, to examine overtaking lanes as best they can. It may also be useful to require farm vehicles and other slow-moving vehicles to pull in. We are considering this. The hard shoulders on the roads in question are not as obviously useful to us as the hard shoulders on the modern roads and therefore there might be some difficulty in having an across-the-board agreement to use them. The correct solution is to try to construct some overtaking areas. One will see these in many countries. A couple of hundred metres of road are designed in such a way to permit overtaking or to allow a tractor or lorry to pull in to let one overtake. We are working on this.
The Minister knows well the road from Kinnegad to Kilcock. It has a 50 mph speed limit and there are hard shoulders on both sides. This morning a farm vehicle caused a tailback of at least four miles and it was travelling at 20 to 25 mph. Reports on the radio inform me that it is illegal to use the hard shoulder in such cases. If so, and bearing in mind the enormous cost of constructing them, what is the point in having one at all? Common sense ordains that they should be used in the interim. In the interest of those who have to spend 20 to 25 hours per week in a motor car driving to work to and from Dublin from the midlands — I am one of these people — will the Minister try to reach some understanding on this issue? Good regulations result from common sense. The Minister is a very reasonable man and has listened to every request we made to him. I ask him to listen to this one also.
I will respond to Deputy McHugh's query in conjunction with that of the Chairman. We must be conscious that the need for emergency services to use hard shoulders is critical. We must be conscious of breakdowns and emergencies the ordinary traveller might have. That is why hard shoulders were constructed in the first place. If we wanted to build extra lanes we probably should have done so, but we built hard shoulders for a reason, namely for safety.
I favour the use of hard shoulders at certain times by buses coming in and out of major cities. Believe it or not, this requires a change in legislation and the Department is drafting legislation to make it possible. I will give the issue some consideration at the Chairman's request. It was not considered that we should have a general opening up of hard shoulders and turn them, in effect, into extra traffic lanes. This is not as simple as it sounds, particularly because of the requirements of the emergency services and the need for safety on our roads.
It is eminently sensible that we start to use hard shoulders as bus lanes and this is the direction we will take. We have built many bus lanes in Dublin in particular. I recently announced two new ones for Galway and I hope they are ready soon. The funds are certainly available if it is proposed to construct them pretty quickly. I have also announced extra bus lanes for Cork.
Deputy McHugh asked me about the role of the county councils regarding speed limits. It is the legal duty of the county councils and the local authorities generally to set the limits. To set them for the national roads, they require the consent of the National Roads Authority. It normally consents to the limits set by the councils.
If it consents, is it not correct that the council cannot adopt the——
The local authorities must consult the National Roads Authority. It is an area that has not been tested very strongly in legal terms but the point I am making in the papers today is that the roads identified to me as requiring higher speed limits are ones the local authorities should examine. I am asking them to do so. I am not threatening in a crude way that I will raise the limits myself if they do not. However, if they feel they cannot raise them, I will need to start looking at the trans-county road network to see how I can ensure consistency across counties instead of depending on individual local authorities to make up their own minds. I do not propose to interfere with 90% of the roads, just the special trans-county dual-carriageway types that require consistency, and the ones listed in the newspapers today. I hope for the full co-operation of the county councils and the local authorities to get this job done. I have no reason to believe I will not receive that co-operation.
That brings us to the end of our hearings on insurance reform for our new interim report. I thank the Minister for his co-operation and understanding. I also thank his principal officers, Des Coppins and Liam Dolan, for attending. There are many organisations represented in the visitors' gallery, from the media and the insurance industry, including Hibernian and Lloyds, and the Competition Authority. I thank them and all those who have attended the hearings for the second interim report. We appreciate it and we know they are helping us considerably.
The joint committee went into private session at 3.40 p.m. and adjourned at 3.45 p.m. until9.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 12 May 2004.