Joint Committee on Environment and Climate Action debate -
Thursday, 15 Jun 2023

Climate Action Plan 2023: Discussion (Resumed)

Deputy Richard Bruton took the Chair.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Richard Bruton)

The Minister and Ministers of State are very welcome. I also welcome their officials, Ms Claragh Mulhern, Mr. Sean Armstrong and Ms Margaret Power.

I remind witnesses of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. If their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks, and it is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

Members of the committee are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I remind members that they are only allowed to participate in the meeting if they are physically located in the Leinster House complex. In this regard, I ask all members joining us online, to confirm prior to making their contribution that they are on the grounds of the Leinster House campus.

I call on the Minister, Deputy O'Brien, to make his opening statement.

Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage (Deputy Darragh O'Brien)

Gabhaim buíochas leis an gCathaoirleach agus leis an gcoiste as an gcuireadh chun labhairt leo maidin inniu, agus go háirithe as an obair atá déanta acu ar son ár gcomhshaoil. I thank the Chair and the members for the invitation to be here today, and for the work they are doing on behalf of the environment and the climate action plan. I am joined by my colleagues, the Ministers of State, Deputies O'Donnell and Noonan, and by our officials, Ms Margaret Power, Mr. Sean Armstrong and Ms Claragh Mulhern. I will go through the opening statement quickly. Mar a dúirt mé cheana, caithfidh mé dul timpeall a 10 a chlog. I have to go around 10 o'clock but I will stay as long as I can.

I thank the joint committee for the opportunity to address it on this topic of the climate action plan 2023. My Department is working hard to achieve our shared goals of net-zero emissions no later than 2050 and a 51% reduction in emissions by the end of this decade. The Department has a broad remit over the built environment, planning, the marine environment and national biodiversity policy, as well as Met Éireann’s role in climate science and the National Parks and Wildlife Service. Many of our actions are high impact and play an important role in the delivery and implementation of the climate action plan, such as in the area of marine planning and responding to the changing climate policy landscape as it evolves, particularly in the area of renewable energy.

All new dwellings constructed under Housing for All are nearly zero energy buildings, NZEBs, which means most new dwellings now have renewable energy heating systems, otherwise known as heat pumps.

Ireland is ahead of the requirements of the energy performance of buildings directive, with the phasing-out of fossil fuel boilers three years in advance of its requirements.

An extensive programme for the retrofitting of local authority housing to a building energy rating, BER, of B2, or cost optimal, is also well under way. The compact growth objectives of the national planning framework, NPF, which have been translated to regional and local planning policy level through the regional strategies and local development plans, are aligned with the climate action plan objectives of reducing emissions through reduced commuting patterns, with a focus on locating development near existing transport facilities. Another of the key priorities includes building resilience, that is, the reuse, adaptability and accessibility of our housing stock. The newly strengthened and restructured National Parks and Wildlife Service, NPWS, which the Minister of State, Deputy Noonan, will cover in more detail, has delivered a number of high-impact actions, not least in the area of peatland restoration.

I will now outline in more detail some specific actions we are taking that will address our climate goals and contribute to the reduction of emissions and the mitigation of and adaptability to climate change. In respect of offshore renewable energy, delivery of the Government’s energy targets is dependent on the effective and timely implementation of all elements of the new marine planning system and environmental initiatives being progressed at the same time. My Department will continue to play a key role in this energy transition. Significant developments are under way in the planning and consent regime for the marine environment. The comprehensive changes in the planning and consenting regime will support our ambitions for decarbonising our energy sector through the development of offshore renewable energy.

The Department will support the new State-led consent regime for the maritime area through the Maritime Area Regulatory Authority, MARA. A dedicated MARA establishment unit is in place within my Department, leading the critical work to enable the timely establishment of the agency. The unit is directing a detailed implementation plan along three work steams, namely, governance, corporate development and operational development, and is working to have MARA formally established as early as possible this year. I expect it to be in place by the middle of July, with the chief executive taking up her role on 10 July. The Marine Area Planning Act 2021 lays the foundations for a modern, efficient and, importantly, Aarhus-compliant marine planning system. Through the establishment of MARA, we will have a well-resourced, modern, professional agency focused solely on regulation in the maritime area. In addition, we are adopting a statutory marine planning policy statement, developing marine planning guidelines and working with the Minister for the Environment, Climate and Communications to prepare designated maritime area plans for offshore renewable energy.

As an example of the practical measures implemented by my Department to make it easier to develop renewable energy, significant planning exemptions were signed into law in October 2022 for solar installations on existing buildings, which will have a significant benefit to the roll-out of renewable electricity on domestic and other buildings in the State. My Department is also working on revised wind energy guidelines, which will provide greater consistency of approach in planning for wind energy development onshore and certainty and clarity to the planning system, the wind industry and local communities.

The Department is working hard to implement impactful measures for the built environment. As I noted earlier, all new dwellings constructed under Housing for All are A-rated. According to Central Statistics Office, CSO, statistics, electricity is the main heating fuel in 87% of all new dwellings and these are primarily renewable energy heat pumps. We expect fossil fuels to have been completely phased out of new dwellings by the end of 2024. In 2022, local authorities were on target, just about, for retrofitting, having retrofitted 2,283 social homes against a target of 2,400. In 2023, we plan to retrofit a further 2,400, with a budget of €87 million in place. By 2030, we will have retrofitted 36,500 local authority homes, or 40% of the available housing stock, to a BER of B2. The largest ever voids programme was funded by the Government in 2020. Since the Government came into office, we have funded local authorities to support the return of more than 8,300 vacant homes to productive use, with an additional 2,300 targeted this year. That is being managed by our local authorities and has been very successful.

Embodied carbon in construction materials makes a significant contribution to the lifetime carbon emissions of new buildings. These embodied carbon emissions are being addressed by the climate action plan, the review of the EU construction products regulation and the review of the energy performance of buildings directive. I am also engaging with the Sustainable Energy Authority of Ireland, SEAI, to put in place resources to provide for frameworks for embodied carbon. In collaboration with my colleague the Minister of State, Senator Hackett, we are establishing an interdepartmental working group to promote the use of timber in construction. I have met twice in recent months with representatives of the Irish Green Building Council in this regard, focusing in particular on the potential of cross-laminated timber. CLT. My Department will publish a life-cycle assessment report for embodied carbon in traditional buildings in the coming weeks.

The actions included in the Common Agricultural Policy 2023 relating to the built and archaeological heritage represent a small sample of the actions that are under way to adapt and protect our cultural heritage in the face of climate change. These include the publication of guidance on improving the energy efficiency of traditional buildings. The reuse of existing buildings will help to reduce emissions from the lifetime emissions of buildings. Given the current demand on housing supply, the availability of existing vacant buildings provides significant opportunities to bring these back into use and support home ownership and additional social housing. Housing for All sets a clear pathway, through policies such as town centres first; Croí Cónaithe, with 2,000 applications for vacancy and dereliction grants having been received since the launch; and the urban generation development fund, URDF, comprising €2 billion of State investment in urban regeneration to ensure houses that are already built are being fully used, as well as resolving issues that see habitable properties remaining vacant while people are waiting a long time on the social housing list or, worse, are in emergency accommodation.

The vacant property refurbishment grant, funded by the Croí Cónaithe towns fund, was launched on 14 July 2022 for eligible vacant properties in towns and villages. From 1 May 2023, the grant was expanded to provide for applications for one property that will be made available for rent, in addition to one property that will be the principal private residence of the owner. We have increased the grants to up to €50,000 for the refurbishment of vacant properties for occupation as a principal private residence or for properties to be made available for rent. Where a property is derelict, a top-up grant of €20,000 is available, bringing the total grant available for a derelict property to €70,000. A total of 1,559 applications had been received by the end of quarter 1 of 2023 but that is increasing every day and is now closer to just short of 2,000.

In January, I announced a third round of funding support under the URDF, supporting the key objectives of Housing for All and town centre first. This round of the URDF specifically addresses long-term vacancy and dereliction in eligible cities and town to facilitate the provision of residential accommodation. We will achieve this through the provision of a €150 million. It will be a revolving fund for local authorities, staying within the local authority sector, to acquire long-term vacant or derelict properties, be they residential or commercial, and to carry out any associated works needed to de-risk or improve the site to make it more attractive for reuse by the local authority or sale. The reuse of existing built structures offers people the opportunity to live closer to work, local services and amenities as well as, importantly, promoting compact growth. The reuse of such buildings will also contribute to climate sectoral targets for the built environment.

The Minister of State, Deputy Noonan, will in a moment speak in more detail about the NPWS. There have been major changes to the service and I commend him on his commitment to that. It has significantly accelerated its programme of restoration of raised bogs in recent years. Since 2018, with increased funding and resources, restoration measures have been completed on approximately 4,400 ha of designated raised bogs. The proposed EU nature restoration law, which will take the form of a regulation, provides an opportunity for transformative change to achieve nature restoration in Ireland.

To conclude, we are working hard on the actions under our remit and we welcome the establishment of dedicated climate delivery task forces. The Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage will continue to be a key stakeholder and, I can guarantee, will actively support and participate in these task forces. As I have outlined, the Department has a very broad remit and we are all focused on developing and implementing policies which will contribute to a reduction in carbon emissions and in adapting to and mitigating the effects of climate change. We are committed to playing a broad and significant role in the Government’s and the country's response to the climate emergency we now face. The delivery of affordable and quality homes under Housing for All and addressing climate action are the two key challenges for the Government at this time.

Deputy Brian Leddin took the Chair.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank the Minister for a comprehensive opening statement, which I and colleagues certainly appreciate. I invite members to indicate to ask questions and I will start with a question of my own.

The Minister touched on the embodied carbon piece. In this committee, we have talked about this before and I acknowledge the measures that are in the climate action plan. What I do not see are measures to begin to account for and value embodied carbon in the existing building stock. I note that other countries are going in that direction. I certainly think there is a glide path for this over the next few decades and it is something we need to be starting on. I acknowledge that European regulation is coming as well. Are moves being made within the Department to begin to set up a system of accounting for and reporting embodied carbon in the existing housing stock and then, additionally, somewhat down the line, putting a value on the embodied carbon such that we might tilt some of the construction activity towards renovation, demolition and new build?

Deputy Darragh O'Brien

We are actively engaged on that. The Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment is leading the departmental modern methods of construction piece and, as the Chairman said, there are also the EU construction products regulation and the review of the energy performance of buildings. We are awaiting the EU regulation, although one or two countries in the EU have moved ahead on that. The preparatory work is being done. The Chairman will see from the actions we are taking with a particular focus on vacant and derelict stock that this is something we are actually doing on the ground and we are not waiting for that regulation. I alluded earlier to the figure of 8,300 void social homes having been brought back into use and we will do perhaps another 2,300 this year. Looking around all of our towns, villages and cities, we see the potential for bringing vacant stock back into use. That is why we have been pushing very hard with the Croí Cónaithe grants, which have been very well received by the community, and we need to expand them further.

I can also tell the committee that while we have an allocation for this year, we will provide additional funds based on the public demand that is there to bring these homes back into use. I have had the pleasure of visiting a number of these homes in my own constituency and around the country and I have seen the difference the grant makes to people. The sum of €50,000 for vacant units is very significant - the Sustainable Energy Authority of Ireland, SEAI, grant is also applicable - and it is €70,000 for derelict properties. It is a tangible way of getting people engaged with bringing older properties back into use.

That is not to forget the work the local authorities are doing in bringing vacant and derelict stock back into use for other types of buildings. For example, tomorrow I will be in Waterford, where we will open 71 adapted units in what was an old convent school, St. Joseph’s in Waterford city. That building had lain derelict for a number of years and we have supported that through the repair and lease scheme. Waterford City and County Council has done a magnificent job with the contractors and it will be predominantly for seniors housing. Thankfully, we have a number of these examples across the country. We are looking at the existing stock and how we can use it, be they old educational buildings, commercial buildings or residential buildings.

That is why I made significant changes to the planning exemptions. For argument’s sake, the conversion of commercial to residential in many instances is exempt but, for some reason, old public houses, that is, pubs, were not, and in most of our towns, villages and cities, they are very prominent buildings. We extended that exemption to them. In Limerick, the Chair's own city and county, and in Waterford and Wexford, there has been some really good work in bringing those buildings back into residential use.

The Department is acutely aware of the targeting and tracking of embodied carbon in the built environment and how we will do that, but we will do it on a pan-European basis and move along with the regulation. Nonetheless, preparatory work is being done.

There are a couple of other things that we have done. The establishment of the demonstration park at Mount Lucas will focus on modern methods of construction and will allow the sector, both public and private, to show best practice right across the country. That is very important. It is the first time Enterprise Ireland has been involved in an investment in an Irish-based centre such as that.

I brought in a fund to write down local authority debt just before the end of last year, and it amounts to just short of €100 million. There are a number of sites across the country that were encumbered with debt and where social or affordable housing could not be developed because of the level of debt on it. We reached out to local authorities and we now have a number of schemes in place. The criteria for writing down the debt are drawn up on the basis that the local authorities use these sites and build these homes using modern methods of construction, MMC. Those are the strict criteria within it. We will deliver an additional 1,500 social houses on these sites that would not have been developed heretofore, and with a specific focus on MMC.

Minister of State at the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage (Deputy Kieran O'Donnell)

To add to that, the Chair had a specific question around accounting. As he is probably aware, the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage and the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications are looking to put together a business case to set up a specific unit within the SEAI to deal with that under the energy performance of buildings directive. That particular point is currently being worked on by both Departments and we will be coming up with a business case. As the Chair said, it is very difficult to quantify without empirical evidence and that will now be happening.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank the Minister and the Minister of State for their answers. It was remiss of me not to mention the incredibly good work that has been done by the Department on the renovation of derelict buildings through funding and supports. We can see it up and down the country and it is fantastic. It might be an idea, if it has not been done already and perhaps it is being done behind the scenes, to assess the carbon benefit of a lot of the building restoration that is going on because it is going on at an incredible scale, driven by Croí Cónaithe. That would be useful information, certainly for this committee.

Deputy Darragh O'Brien

I will add one point to that. We have established a vacant homes unit within the Department for the first time, so we are able to actually track what vacant and derelict stock is coming back into use, either through local authorities or through grants like Croí Cónaithe. We have updates every week on that. Thirty of our 31 local authorities now have a permanent vacant homes officer whose sole job is in regard to seeking out vacant properties in their areas, and for the one remaining local authority that does not yet have that post in place, the job offer is out there at the moment. Therefore, we now have the structure to be able to manage that, but also to track it so we can track through that process and assess the carbon benefit in that regard also.

Minister of State at the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage (Deputy Malcolm Noonan)

To add to what my colleagues have said, I think it is a really good suggestion. We developed a climate change sectoral adaptation plan for built and archaeological heritage, and we are one of the first countries in Europe to have done it. We are carrying out a life-cycle assessment report and a step-by-step approach to assessing embodied and life-cycle emissions involved in the retrofit of existing buildings. Therefore, there is work under way in the Department. That report is due to be completed shortly and we will be happy to furnish it to the committee. Obviously, it is very useful and important to be able to track the carbon savings from the retrofit of building stock.

An Cathaoirleach

Thank you. I have further questions on embodied carbon but I am mindful of time. I apologise to colleagues for being late this morning. I got my scheduling wrong. I call Deputy Whitmore.

Deputy Jennifer Whitmore

I thank the Minister for the presentation. I also want to talk about embodied carbon.

The report that was published last year from the Irish Green Building Council stated that in order to meet climate targets, the State may need to limit the construction of new homes to 21,000 units per year, which is well below that envisaged by the Housing for All plan. Housing for All is specific that the actions in the plan have been developed to support the targets and objectives of the climate action plan. If embodied carbon represents 14% of our emissions, the Minister's Department and the Housing for All plan have a huge part to play in assessing and reducing emissions of construction material. Has the Housing for All plan ever been assessed to quantify the amount of embodied emissions that will result if that plan is implemented?

Deputy Darragh O'Brien

I thank the Deputy. She mentioned the Irish Green Building Council. I have engaged with it twice recently about its views on construction and seeing opportunities for how we could potentially do things better. I mentioned in my opening statement that all of the affordable and social housing stock is A2-rated. Some 87% are now-----

Deputy Jennifer Whitmore

I do not want to be rude but I know the Chair is going to cut me off.

Deputy Darragh O'Brien

That is fine.

Deputy Jennifer Whitmore

The energy rating is different from the construction and the embodied carbon.

Deputy Darragh O'Brien

I fully understand that.

Deputy Jennifer Whitmore

Has that been quantified for the Housing for All plan?

Deputy Darragh O'Brien

What the construction sector will actually generate in carbon emissions has been quantified. My main focus is on making sure that we are using more modern methods of construction, MMC. As I have outlined that, I will not repeat myself. We have to catch up on State-delivered housing. I agree with the Deputy on that. For example, timber-framed houses use timber. Some 48% of all homes being built now use timber. It is about 24% to 26% in respect of social housing. We have a gap to catch up on there. As I referred to earlier, that is why I brought in strict criteria for new social housing building, which has to use MMC. The Deputy is right that we need to catch up in that space. She has seen it in her own county. I know the issues are the quality of work being done, the quality of the build and the energy efficiency of the homes. As we ramp up our housing output, that obviously has an impact on carbon and we have to watch that carefully.

Deputy Jennifer Whitmore

When the Minister refers to watching it, in order to know that something is an issue, one has to quantify it. Has it been quantified? Has the Minister determined how much embodied carbon the Housing for All plan will amount to and how that fits in with our climate targets?

Deputy Darragh O'Brien

We discussed the energy performance of buildings directive briefly earlier. We are working with the SEAI to put that in place.

Deputy Jennifer Whitmore

That does not deal with embodied carbon though.

Deputy Darragh O'Brien

I understand that.

Deputy Jennifer Whitmore

I only have a minute left. Has the Department assessed the embodied carbon and quantified it for the Housing for All plan?

Deputy Darragh O'Brien

That depends on the output in any given year. To give an example-----

Deputy Jennifer Whitmore

Each target. So the Department would not have specified targets for each year?

Deputy Darragh O'Brien

To give an example, last year, we targeted 24,600 homes.

Deputy Jennifer Whitmore

Has the Department quantified the embodied carbon for that?

Deputy Darragh O'Brien

We built just short of 30,000. I can get the Deputy the detail. I do not have the overall quantification of that. I am saying-----

Deputy Jennifer Whitmore

I am sorry; I do not want to be rude but-----

An Cathaoirleach

I ask Deputy Whitmore to let the Minister answer. I think there is a point to be made.

Deputy Darragh O'Brien

What we have to do, Jennifer Whitmore-----

Deputy Jennifer Whitmore

The Minister sounds like my mother here.

Deputy Darragh O'Brien

Excuse me, Deputy Whitmore. I apologise. There is a big focus on using MMC. We are seeing much better practices across the country. I take the Deputy's point about the quantification of the carbon from the construction sector and particularly the residential sector. There is no question that it has its role to play. That is why we are focusing in particular on ensuring that our local authorities use more MMC. The quality of build is exceptional. They are all A2-rated. For future initiatives and things like dealing with energy poverty, that makes a massive difference to the quality of stock that we are delivering. I take the Deputy's point on overall quantification. We will come back to the committee on that.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

A unit will be set up in SEAI under the new directive. That will deal with embodied carbon frameworks. The EU directive will apply to new builds from 1 January 2027 and will apply to all builds from three years later. The Minister is saying that it is moving. We want to bring it as low as possible. Going back to what the Chair said earlier, we need to do empirical work to measure that. The Department is currently, with the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications, producing a business case for the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform, to set up the specific unit within SEAI to measure embodied carbon. It would do measurements, accounting and put frameworks in place. While it puts pressure on officials, we would look to put it ahead of that, in order that we can bring down the embodied carbon in existing buildings and new buildings too. The Deputy asked about measurements. One major feature involves bringing in something for that accounting measure. That needs to be done empirically.

Deputy Darragh O'Brien

That is 1 January 2027.

Deputy Jennifer Whitmore

Okay, so-----

An Cathaoirleach

Very briefly, because I know the Minister needs to leave at 10 a.m.

Deputy Jennifer Whitmore

The embodied carbon for the Housing for All plan has not been modelled yet. Steps are in place.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

The Deputy is missing my point which is that, to do work empirically and really refine it, we need a specialised unit.

Deputy Jennifer Whitmore

That is the start date. Therefore, the Housing for All plan has not been-----

Deputy Darragh O'Brien

Well-----

Deputy Jennifer Whitmore

I just wonder if it has modelled the embodied carbon.

Deputy Darragh O'Brien

That is fine. I get the Deputy's question. As the Minister of State, Deputy O'Donnell, rightly said, the embodied carbon frameworks will be in place from 1 January 2027. It is not that anyone is hiding away from it. When one looks at what is actually being delivered, it is hard to argue with its quality.

Deputy Jennifer Whitmore

I will finish about the date. I think it is-----

An Cathaoirleach

I am very mindful of time.

Deputy Darragh O'Brien

We are working towards it.

Deputy Jennifer Whitmore

What I take from it is that it has not been modelled, which is unfortunate since the Housing for All plan, in parallel with the climate action plan, is the largest policy of the State and Government. It would be good to-----

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Deputy Whitmore. I know the Minister needs to leave at 10 a.m. and three colleagues are looking to come in. We will stick to the five minutes if we can.

Deputy Richard Bruton

It is worth remembering that embodied carbon is not on our inventory. It does not count towards our target, so we do not get confused about the two things.

I have a couple of questions. The Minister stands at the gateway of renewables. I commend the work that is going on. It is an exceptionally difficult area to get planning right. I would like to ask what has happened to the wind guidelines, for instance. They seem to be taking an eternity. More generally, is our interface with this sector, which is potentially transformative in an Irish context, up to best practice globally? We hear comments that other jurisdictions have easier turnkey approaches for investors to attract people more quickly. I would like to hear the Minister's comment on whether we are getting up to speed and if we are missing some of our timelines, like with the wind guidelines.

The second question I have is maybe a little bit to do with my constituency. I commend all the work the Minister is doing on vacant homes. I would like to see a new tranche of town centre first funding, please. One per county does not seem to be enough. I have a parochial issue. We are trying to promote compact living. Large parts of my constituency have been built over the past ten years. They have still to be taken in charge. Issues like public transport, regulation of transport and delivery of childcare have not come up to scratch. Our planning system has not caught up with the needs of compact living. If we want to move to lower carbon and lower movement, it cannot take ten years for estates to be taken in charge, albeit that the crash made it exceptionally difficult. Can the Minister address that?

One area where the Department missed its target is on the district heating steering group report being submitted to Government. Are we on target on district heating?

We have quite an ambitious target. I think it is 0.7 TWh of district heating by 2025. Will we deliver that?

I suspect the Minister has quite a few public buildings under his remit. The 40% target he is on track for with local authority stock is commendable but what about public buildings? Does he have a similar tracking of how rapidly it is moving? Given the pivotal role of local authorities, is the Minister taking on the idea of not just upgrading his own stock but also being an exemplar and offering greater potential? Even if a home is purchased but was developed, clearly there is a huge chance to do the whole estate together or closely adjoining estates. It seems to me the local authorities have not embraced that, despite urgings. Can we do more in that area?

Deputy Darragh O'Brien

I will let my colleagues come in on this but will take the Deputy’s last point first. Local authorities are moving well on retrofitting their stock. There is an opportunity in older estates where homes may have been purchased. Fingal County Council is going to run a pathway scheme in relation to making an offer to the whole estate while retrofitting social homes within it. It is something the local authorities are up for but there are some complications, none of them insurmountable. Fingal is taking a lead on that and rolling out a scheme. It has already surveyed residents in the estate it is focused on, including those in private dwellings, to see what the take-up will be. Economies of scale could be offered for people on the work being done and increased efficiency.

District heating is being led by the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications, with involvement from our Department. We are part of the steering group and will support the lead Department with regard to planning policy on the roll-out of district heating.

The public consultation on wind energy guidelines for onshore concluded in February 2020, which is some time ago. Technical noise elements are being dealt with in the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications. To be frank, that is what has delayed that. We will implement them from a planning perspective once that comes forward. There has been a change in that on the landscape in Common Agricultural Policy, CAP, 2023 so they had to be updated from a noise perspective. We are working closely with that Department.

On offshore, I mentioned MARA is a significant change. We will have one consenting body and a body responsible for our maritime area. We will stand that up on 17 July. That is what we are planning to do. The chief executive will be in place on 10 July. The board is in place but will be stood up and the chairperson is selected. We have an implementation team. The office will be in Wexford. That has been well received by the wind sector as improving our consenting process and making sure there is effectively a one-stop shop. We have resourced An Bord Pleanála. Through panel E, we have a full-time board member looking at the marine area, which will support the planning process for offshore renewables. We have highly exacting targets for 2030. The Minister, Deputy Eamon Ryan, is heavily involved in that. We have put the planning framework and resources in place for a marine team in An Bord Pleanála and to resource MARA.

The taking in charge process the Deputy mentioned is something on which I have engaged with local authorities. Some complexities arise from time by time where there may be a bond left if the previous builder is no longer in place or there is not a sufficient bond in place. Local authorities work with us on that if funding is required for them to contract the work to bring an estate up to a standard such that it can be taken in charge. I am aware, as the Deputy is, of a number of estates, thankfully lessening over time, which still are not fully taken in charge after a significant period.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

On the legacy estates, I have requested the local authorities to go through all the local authorities and survey all such estates. Funding was provided to local authorities a number of years ago to finish out legacy Celtic tiger estates with unfinished houses. The Deputy is talking about the broader issue. I have asked the Department to go to all the local authorities and get a full compilation of every legacy estate in order that we get a complete picture and can do a structured body of work on it in the Department.

Deputy Malcolm Noonan

The Deputy mentioned town centre first officers and a number of Deputies have raised the one-per-county. We have taken that on board and if a request comes in for further resources, we can accommodate it. Across our local authority system, there are vacancy officers. We are looking at a scheme now through our architectural conservation officers to ensure every county has one. We see it as an interdisciplinary approach. We build up the town teams and the town centre first officer has a role to play in that. There is a huge opportunity there to use the skills and resources across the local authority system.

Deputy Richard Bruton

Putting out a call for another tranche of towns to join might be a nice approach.

Deputy Malcolm Noonan

That is something we will give consideration to.

On the marine environment and renewable energy, we are in the process of completing the legislation for marine protected areas. What we have in place, between the marine strategy framework directive and the marine planning, is a good regulatory system giving certainty to companies pitching for projects. We are moving into a better space in terms of designations offshore and how that integrates with our ambition for offshore wind energy.

Senator Pauline O'Reilly

I thank the Ministers for coming in. I will speak on transport and the Department's role in transport. They will remember the decision late last year on the Galway ring road, when An Bord Pleanála admitted it had not taken into consideration the 2022 climate action plan. A further glaring omission for me reading the judgment was that it did not mention it was a relevant body under the climate Act. Even apart from the climate action plans, it has obligations it did not take into consideration. We know from the climate action plan that vehicle use in kilometres travelled is to reduce by 20%. What is the Department doing, as the planning Department, to ensure that happens? Bus use in rural Ireland has doubled under this Government but that is not related to this Department. The national planning framework is to be reviewed over the coming year, as set down in the programme for Government. What will the Ministers do to ensure those kilometres travelled reduce by 20%, in terms of advising what changes can be made to the national planning framework?

Deputy Darragh O'Brien

I will not comment on Galway because it is a live matter with An Bord Pleanála.

The Deputy mentioned the NPF review. We are undertaking that now and it will be done as a matter of urgency. We are waiting for the final CSO data to do that and look at population trends and growth, specifically in relation to compact urban growth. Our town centre first policy feeds well into ensuring people, as I mentioned in my opening statement, are living in our town centres and have access to amenities and public transport.

In our cities, there has been a challenge, particularly in regard to building apartments and making sure that we are working towards 15-minute cities as well. We do not have enough people living in our cities. That is why we brought forward the Croí Cónaithe cities fund. I will make some announcements on that shortly to be able to get paused planning permissions for large-scale apartment developments in our five cities started and developed. That will be important for regeneration and renewal within our cities too, but also having more people being able to live and work within our cities.

I have also published the policy statement on the compact urban growth guidelines. They will be out on public display for another four-week period. I intend to have the revised compact urban growth guidelines in place this year. They are looking at good own-door design that can help to unlock developments right across the country and make sure that the appropriate planning is given in appropriate places. One of the criticisms of some of the measures previously was that planning permission was granted for developments that would not be built because they were not appropriate to a specific area. We want to be able to allow to have a regional focus on that. The compact urban growth policy statement has been issue. That will go out on public display with the compact urban growth guidelines. That public consultation is under way. That also deals with the settlement guidelines in place.

Senator Pauline O'Reilly

I thank the Minister. I am conscious of my time here.

What I am hearing here is good news. I would say, to Deputy Bruton's point, a number of towns across Galway come under the town centres first project and they are advancing really well with local communities on board. Clifden is one of those.

What I am not hearing in the Minister's response is the transport piece of that. Compact growth is a key part of it. Under the NPF, there is a requirement around compact growth and ending that sprawl but there are also a number of projects, for instance, roads projects, not all of which can go ahead if we are to reduce by 20% our kilometres travelled because planning has an impact. I will refer back - it is not necessarily a live matter because An Bord Pleanála admitted that it did not take the climate action plan into consideration - to an obligation there on planning to look at these projects as they come to it and to say whether they are in line with Ireland's reduction in emissions. Other countries, for example, Wales, have diverted funding from those kind of projects into such projects as compact growth that the Minister mentioned.

An Cathaoirleach

Let the Minister answer because we do not have too much time.

Deputy Darragh O'Brien

I understand the Senator's point. In large swathes of the country as well, there might be infrastructural deficits that need to be dealt with and some of that will include road infrastructure. I will not comment on Galway but people will understand the issues in Galway.

The sustainable and compact settlement guidelines are very important. They need to be updated because the guidelines need to be able to unlock good development. Previously that was not always the case. Local authorities, through their development plans, have a very important role in that as well. In fairness, the Office of the Planning Regulator, with me, oversees to make sure that development plans are in line with the NPF and our compact growth objectives, which is what we want to see. I assume the committee will take specific interest in the sustainable compact settlement guidelines because there is a real opportunity there for us to get this right and to be able to unlock development in the right places where we need it.

I would not underestimate the significance of the Croí Cónaithe cities scheme, which we will make announcements for later this year, on very specific schemes that have not been built and that should have been built in our cities, close to public transport and close to amenities, where we will be able to unlock good apartment developments for people to buy or, indeed, rent through cost rental. We are focused on that.

Without question, we have a role within planning. Part of that, I am sure, will come up later. I might cover it with resourcing of An Bord Pleanála. We have made big strides. We have 15 board members in place now. We were as low as five in the middle of last year. We have approved up to 300 posts in the board as well. There is a lot happening.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

If I may come in on the specific point the Senator asked about, under Housing for All our Department is doing work with the Department of Transport in aligning planning with transport. We have first started with Dublin - that work is currently being concluded - and we will move to the other cities. On the specific point she raised, our Department is specifically working with the Department of Transport on aligning planning with transport. There is a body of work already done in Dublin. We will move to the other cities. That is under Housing for All. That is an integrated approach.

It is important to bear in mind, side-by-side with that, we have gone out in public consultation in examining what is viable. Making the densities on own-door as distinct from all being apartment is something we need to look at as well. It is about that integrated approach.

That specific body of work is under way between ourselves and the Department of Transport.

Senator Pauline O'Reilly

I thank the Minister of State.

An Cathaoirleach

The Minister needs to leave. I call Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan, if he wants to contribute quickly.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

I thank the Minister and Minister of State for attending.

Transport is responsible for 18% of our emissions. Of that, car travel is responsible for 13%. Clearly, we need to tackle that issue. Public transport, obviously, is one method.

In regional areas and rural areas, electric vehicles, EVs, will play a huge role. It is encouraging that EV sales are increasing significantly year-on-year. What is not encouraging is the fact that fossil-fuel powered car sales are still outdoing the sales of EVs. Clearly, there are barriers to the purchase of EVs. EVs provide a solution, especially in rural areas because the way they are designed the lower the speed they travel at the further the range one gets. They are well suited to regional areas.

Unfortunately, in terms of charging infrastructure, in particular, fast-charging infrastructure, there are black holes right along the western half of the country. That needs to be addressed. I firmly believe that local authorities can play a key role in addressing that. In most towns and villages, town centre carparks are owned by local authorities and they play a key role. There was an enhanced package provide to local authorities towards the end of last year to encourage more local authorities to install EV infrastructure but, from what I see on the ground, that is not happening. We are not seeing that extra roll-out of these fast EV chargers. I wonder whether an instruction can again be given to local authorities to avail of the supports and to direct them to roll out EV charging because it is a key part in decarbonising transport.

Deputy Darragh O'Brien

I thank the Deputy. EV charging infrastructure is crucially important. It is good to see the growth in EV sales. Something that has helped them is the grants. I would like to see the grant levels maintained for EVs as well, because people are responding to that.

Local authorities have a role to play in that, and many exercise it. I have seen an increase in charging infrastructure across many of the local authority areas. That is supported by the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications. We work with the Department on that. Some of the local authorities have brought forward schemes relating to charging points on public lighting posts as well, as the Deputy will have seen. They have been quite innovative in that space. It is something certainly that we will work towards and we will continue to support.

With regard to new builds into the future, I have brought in provisions for EV charging infrastructure in all new dwellings with their own car parking space, non-residential buildings with more than ten spaces and existing ones with more than 20 spaces. In addition, exemptions have been made in planning provisions so that the vast majority of EV charging points are exempt from the requirement of planning. We support local authorities in the work that they have to do in their own facilities. The Deputy will see on-street charging points, many of which are facilitated by local authorities.

The EV charging infrastructure throughout the country, including that in services stations, particularly when people are travelling from one side of the country to the other or on longer journeys, needs to be expanded further.

Our colleagues in the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications are responsible for that.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

That is encouraging about the home charging. That is obviously where most people will do their charging but there are still those black holes in the western half of the country. Finally, in the minute I have left, many local authorities are introducing their climate adaptation plans. However, we are not seeing any climate mitigation plans from local authorities. Basically, they are putting in plans to prevent flooding and maybe prevent coastal erosion but very little is being done on reducing emissions and mitigation. Where is that at? Following on from that, the Minister of State, Deputy Noonan, might talk about the welcome news recently that each local authority will have a biodiversity officer. How is recruitment going on that?

Deputy Darragh O'Brien

I will let the Minister of State, Deputy Noonan, talk about the National Parks and Wildlife Service, NPWS. In my opening statement I gave some detail around the retrofitting programme which is really important, with our local authority stock and the housing stock that we have, in order to reduce emissions. Local authorities are key drivers in their own areas to advance climate policy. They are acutely aware of this. Their development plans have to underpin that. In regard to local authority buildings and the buildings that they control, we support them in the upgrade of those buildings. The Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications has a role in that too. We are looking at the energy efficiency within many of our older local authority buildings to see how we can expand renewables in that space through solar and other methods. Actually, in one of our oldest buildings, the Custom House, which is our own head office, much work has been done to improve energy efficiency, as well as in our office in Ballina, Mayo. We are conscious of how we can reduce energy consumption in the other buildings we have and thereby reduce emissions. However, the big piece of work that we are undertaking in that space is the energy retrofit programme. Our target is 36,500. We have done soft retrofits in about 75,000 homes where we improved standards within them. All new dwellings now have heat pumps and are A-rated. For new stock we are in good shape. We have a piece of work to do in regard to the older housing stock which we are working through. We will do about 2,400 retrofits this year. I will let Minister of State, Deputy Noonan in now on the biodiversity officers.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

Briefly, if I can ask, each of the local authorities is required to do a climate action plan individually. It falls in under the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications, under the remit of the Minister, Deputy Eamon Ryan. He has just written to one of the local authorities to now start preparing the climate action plans with climate mitigation measures. He issued directions on the guidelines. We will be fine with that, as a Department. In regard to EV charging points, I am visiting all the local authorities and bringing up that point. Once again, the policy on that is coming out of the Department of Transport but it is something I have spoken about to all the local authorities. The Minister, Deputy O'Brien, speaks about rural areas. EV charging points are just as important, if not more important, in rural locations. Both of those are happening at the moment.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank the Minister of State, Deputy O'Donnell. Is Deputy Devlin happy with that? I thank the Minister for his time here today.

Deputy Malcolm Noonan

The mitigation issue is a hugely important point. We are seeing the impacts of coastal erosion and rising sea levels across the country. It is critically important that we address the issue strategically because it is happening now. In regard to biodiversity officers, we are making good progress. We started the scheme with The Heritage Council this year. It is our intention to have a biodiversity officer in every local authority by the end of 2024. Having that in place is hugely important. Cork obviously has always been different. It has had a biodiversity officer that it funded through its own resources. There will be one in Cork city and in Cork county, which is great. The critical thing, as I mentioned on Deputy Bruton's question, is the interdisciplinary approach that having a network of biodiversity officers working towards the national biodiversity action plan will lead to. Whatever happens with the nature restoration regulation, given that urban environments are going to be included in it, if that is the case and that article is there, there is an opportunity for nature-based solutions in urban areas. There is a huge potential and we are delighted with the scheme so far. There has been great interest in it. We will have a fully connected network of biodiversity officers by the end of 2024.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

I welcome the Ministers of State and thank them for their time this morning and for engaging on this important topic. In regard to the points made by the Minister, Deputy O’Brien, nearly all the new housing stock is to be nearly zero energy building standard, NZeb standard, which is very important, and has been for the past number of years. In regard to the existing housing stock, the Minister referred to a target of 2,400 retrofits this year. Where are we with that target? Also, the same issues apply for private homeowners versus the local authority housing stock, whereby some of the units are quite challenging to retrofit. I accept that slows the process down. Where the local authorities own groups of housing units together, surely there should be a real emphasis and renewed vigour to try to get those units brought up to standard. Some of them were built in the 1950s or 1960s, or earlier, and are really in need of retrofitting. The target of 2,400 units is low enough for local authorities. We need to be more ambitious than that. We are a few years into it. I accept there are skills shortages. However, the Minister of State might come back on that.

In regard to the derelict and vacant homes grant, that is working exceptionally well. That can be seen both in urban and rural areas. I mentioned before either this or another committee that there is a particular unit in the Dún Laoghaire constituency that has been vacant and derelict for probably longer than I have been alive. Now, under this grant, it is finally being utilised. That is wonderful to see. I note the Minister’s comments about the Maritime Area Regulatory Authority, MARA, CEO taking up position in July. That is welcome. In terms of an ask slightly outside of our discussion today I asked about the historical structures fund previously. We need to increase it. There is a greater demand for protected structures to be funded. In the case of Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown there is about €130,000 per annum. That is quite small given the fact that so many historical structures are based in that area. I ask that the Department might review that, given the budget negotiations that are about to be undertaken in the coming months.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

I thank Deputy Devlin for the question. In regard to the retrofits, as he just mentioned, the Department has a target of 36,500 retrofits by 2030. We are on target for last year, 2022 and 2023. We retrofitted 2,183 in 2022 and the target is 2,400 for 2023. That is escalating to 3,500 next year, 4,000 the year after, 4,000, 4,500, 4,700, and 5,000 by 2030. That is very much on target. Last year €85 million was made available to the local authorities for it. Of the housing stock, there are 140,000 units in total. Of those, 35,000 are already at a B2 rating. They were built post-2008. It is not that they are all-----

Deputy Cormac Devlin

I know, yes.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

Of the shallow retrofit for those built between 2013 and 2021, we have done 75,000 which is 54%. Generally, the social housing stock is on target to reach 36,500 retrofits by 2030. Speaking about the private sector and how we can reduce emissions overall, there is the reuse of existing buildings to which the Deputy made reference earlier and implementing embodied carbon requirements to new buildings, which we are doing. I take Deputy Bruton's point that it is not included in the climate target. Nevertheless, it is an important feature in regard to quantifying what is involved and the cost. Carbon emissions from the manufacture and construction is 10% of all carbon emissions. All new buildings at the moment must be of an A-rating. We are seeing that 86% of all new buildings at the moment have heat pumps. We are pushing that area. When the energy performance building directive is brought into play, it will be very important.

I want to put it in context. Deputy Whitmore made the point recently. The targeted reduction for the sectoral emissions ceilings for the built environment is 40%. The targeted reductions in the Climate Action Plan 2023 for the whole building environment, that is residential and commercial, is 45% to 55%. The EPA, in its recently published greenhouse gas emissions projection report, states we are on target and that the emissions from the energy sector are projected to decrease by between 36% and 47% between 2021 and 2030. Thus, based on independent analysis we are very much on target to meet our requirements under housing. We want to improve on that.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

I thank the Minister of State for that. On the issue of the local authority targets, there are some authorities that are better than others when it comes to retrofitting their stock. While there are ones that are not as efficient or not as able to improve their stock as quickly as others, I accept finance is not the issue and there are skills shortages. That said, it would be great to have a local authority we could hold up as having retrofitted 80% of its stock. I accept what the Minister of State also said about the new housing stock from 2018 onwards that is A-rated, but I am thinking about the older stock and looking at this from the tenants' perspective as well as an environmental perspective. We need to ensure that older housing stock is brought up to speed, even with the shallow retrofit.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

We are obviously engaging with each local authority regularly, but on the Deputy's point, if there are particular local authorities he believes are not meeting targets he should come to us in the Department and we will engage with them. What we ultimately want is consistency.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

Correct.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

The best boys and girls in the class are entitled to be acknowledged as such. It is about consistency. It is an issue I bring up when I visit all the local authorities. If the Deputy has specifics he should come to us, but his point is well made.

Deputy Malcolm Noonan

I thank the Deputy for his question on the historic structures fund. I would love to double the fund as it has been hugely impactful. We have a number of funds. We have the built heritage investment scheme and we support the Heritage Council's delivery of the historic towns initiative. What we get out of those funds is not just the retrofit of individual buildings but perhaps even streetscapes. We can get a positive contagion in the town whereby we see other premises are brought up to a higher standard and up to a good conservation standard as well.

I was in Dún Laoghaire on Monday and the CEO showed me a wonderful project supported by our Department at the old harbourmaster cottages. That is the type of project we want to see being replicated across the country. It is adaptive reuse and the fact there is social housing going in there means it is a great exemplar of the type of project we want to support. There is the embodied carbon issue, that is to say, the greenest building is the one that already exists. It makes a huge difference.

Yesterday, the Minister and I announced an additional grant scheme for conservation advice of €7,500 for people who want to restore traditional farmhouses. That is also to be welcomed. We want to do that in a conservation-led way. We have a scheme there for the roll-out of additional architectural conservation officers. We will soon publish guidance on energy efficiency in traditional buildings, because they perform differently. They need breathability and to use natural materials. There have been some very inappropriate interventions and we see them across the country. They can have a really detrimental impact on the fabric of the building. These measures combined bring us into a better space. I mention also that the Department of Environment, Climate and Communications and the SEAI have a grant scheme of up to 50% for existing housing retrofit. We are starting to see many really good projects taking off across the country.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

I thank the Minister of State for his reply. He is right. We obviously want to preserve what we have with our historical structures, but the fund itself is still quite small and the feedback I get from people who own protected structures is the amount is so minuscule it is not even worth applying for.

Deputy Malcolm Noonan

Okay.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

It is about whether we are serious about protecting these structures. Another element is the thatched cottages. I am aware there is a body of work being done on that. We do not want to lose them either.

An Cathaoirleach

I am mindful this is very much off the agenda. The Minister of State probably wants to talk about this stuff, but I must be fair to other members as well.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

It would be great if he could come back to us.

Deputy Malcolm Noonan

It is and is not off the agenda, because it is about embodied carbon. These traditional buildings use natural materials and that in itself is low-carbon, so it is critically important. We have done considerable work on thatched properties. Unfortunately, we are loosing them at too fast a rate and we want to reverse that trend. I take on board the Deputy's point. We are in the process of reviewing those grant schemes to see how we can better tweak them. We are taking back the feedback from people who have applied for them and from the local authorities themselves. We hope to be in a better position to adapt those grants to ensure they are fit for purpose.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

I thank the Cathaoirleach.

Senator Lynn Boylan

I thank the Minister and Ministers of State. I have a question for the Minister of State, Deputy Noonan, on the marine protected areas. There was a presentation in the AV room last week on the potential of carbon in fish. I think it is 16% of the carbon cycle. Will the Bill for marine protected areas the Oireachtas committee report recommendation, which is for 10% strictly protected areas, because we know it is essential to protect the fish in terms of their carbon storage? Can the Minister of State give us any indication whether the 10% strictly protected areas will make it into the marine protected areas Bill?

People have been dealing with the high-level aspects of how we reduce our emissions in the built environment through retrofitting and embodied carbon. My focus would be on what is seen as the low-hanging fruit. I am raging the Minister has had to leave, because I have been trying to get this question answered for the last year and a half. It is about the rights of tenants and owner-occupiers in apartments to dry their clothes and to not have to rely on electric dryers. We signed up to an agreement at EU level to reduce our electricity demand by 10%. We did not achieve that reduction, but one of the key planks of the campaign to reduce that energy demand was a public awareness campaign telling people to reduce their electricity use. One of the ads asked whether now was a good time to dry clothes or dry them outside. What we were effectively doing there is gaslighting everybody who lives in apartment blocks, because they are not allowed dry their clothes outside and must use dryers. The question I am trying to get the Minister to answer is would he look to amend the Residential Tenancies Act to allow tenants and owner-occupiers have the right to dry their clothes outside, rather than in an electrical dryer. We are talking about compact urban growth and people living more in apartments, so the planning guidelines must allow for spaces and facilities that allow people to dry their clothes outdoors.

Deputy Malcolm Noonan

I thank the Senator. I will take the first question. We are progressing well with the marine protected areas legislation. It is our intention to have it brought forward before the end of the summer recess and that is the commitment we have given. On the specifics around 10% and the blue carbon issue the Senator raised. We were clear in the initial report led by Professor Crowe and from our own public engagement on the drafting of the general scheme that we wanted to ensure public participation. Designing a public participation piece into it is going to be a novel element of the legislation. It has been a challenge to do it because it is quite innovative, but from the engagement we took part in across the country during Covid times when we met in Killybegs out in carparks with fishers and other communities, everyone wanted marine protected areas but the key demand was that it would be an iterative process and one in which everybody could participate and have a say. We will be moving the legislation and it will have that public participation element designed in, at which point we can move towards the consideration of the marine protected areas themselves. I hope that gives an answer. The 10% the Senator asked about must be led by the public and by communities. That is critically important and was asked for right across. It is hugely important we do it in that way because that is what was asked of us.

Senator Lynn Boylan

I am sorry, but is that a matter of where the 10% is to be designated or whether or not there will be 10% strictly protected?

Deputy Malcolm Noonan

We want to leave that open. We want to ensure that the legislation gives effect to allowing the public to have a say in how we do this. We do not see marine protected areas as lines on maps. Absolutely, there are designations there for birds under special protection areas. We have moved to increase that from 2% to 8%, and we will be moving towards 10% this year. Critically important for marine protected areas is that they need to be places that recognise cultural and other values that are there. We are not saying that no activity can take place in them, but what we are trying to do is ensure we are protecting features and specific species within marine protected areas, and activities can still take place. The 10% element of it, which I know Fair Seas and others have been looking for, is something that will emerge out of a public participation process once the legislation is enacted.

I agree with the Senator on the potential for blue carbon and these habitats. We are absolutely conscious of that. On the features we talked about - and seagrass is another - we are very much mindful of the value that they have in the context of the ecosystem services they provide. On the carbon capture, storage and resilience element, we are ensuring that we are going to include the measurement of that, and how we support that within the marine protected areas.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

I assume Senator Boylan was talking about apartments.

Senator Lynn Boylan

Yes, and also some people who live in private rental houses are not allowed to dry their clothes outside.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

I presume that is, in many cases, due to the rules under the management companies. It is obviously something that the Senator has put a body of work into. Has she come up with a proposal on it?

Senator Lynn Boylan

Well, not even just me. The Labour Party also has a Bill to amend the Residential Tenancies Act 2021 to allow the conditions restricting peaceful enjoyment of a tenancy, so that it would not be permissible to ban people from drying their clothes outdoors.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

I will go back and engage with the officials on this point. Is it a matter in respect of which Senator Boylan has got responses from the Department to date?

Senator Lynn Boylan

No. The Department says it has no role. That is the cause of my frustration. This is really low-hanging fruit, especially when we are paying money to roll out public advertisements telling people not to use their dryer, but we have all these people living in apartments saying that it is great but they are not allowed-----

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

Strictly speaking, as the Senator will appreciate, within the confines of an apartment block, the management company sets the rules. Typically, people buy or rent on that basis. I will go look at it with the officials to see exactly what the situation is and come back to the Senator.

Senator Lynn Boylan

Does the Minister of State appreciate that because electricity demand reduction is key to us meeting our targets, and we have to reduce the amount of electricity that we require, this is a very easy measure by which to do that, and to factor that into new builds so that new apartment blocks will have facilities? Years ago with council flats, there were public drying spaces.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

The question I was reflecting on is whether the solution is communal areas, as distinct from balconies, which may be perceived as unsightly or whatever. I am not even going to go into that space, but people might say so. The bottom line is that I will look at this matter for the Senator and come back to her on it.

An Cathaoirleach

It would be worth quantifying what the carbon benefit of changing the Residential Tenancies Act might be. If it is significant, then, obviously, it should be looked at. Perhaps it is not.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

It is a combination.

Senator Lynn Boylan

I suppose it is significant enough to warrant a public campaign telling people not to use their dryers. If the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications thought it was warranted to run an advertising campaign on RTÉ-----

An Cathaoirleach

The campaign was not related to the 2030 targets. That was related to the energy shortages this year.

Senator Lynn Boylan

It was about reducing our demand and production, but particularly-----

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

Can I just clarify that one point-----

Senator Lynn Boylan

-----sorry, this is really important. Particularly because when people are drying or washing their clothes, it is generally at peak demand, and to reduce peak demand means reducing our reliance on gas and fossil fuels. There is an element, but we signed up to a 10% reduction, and we increased our demand by 6%. The big, key plank is that when one asks what the Department did to reach the 10%, it points to the public awareness campaign, which was telling people not to use dryers.

An Cathaoirleach

It was much more related to the energy crisis than reducing the 2030 targets. We should not conflate them.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

I want to make two very quick points on that. That was a Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications campaign. There are two Departments involved - the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications and the Department of Justice - when it comes to multiunit apartment blocks. I have given an undertaking, and I will look at it.

Senator Lynn Boylan

Okay.

An Cathaoirleach

It would be good to find out what the carbon benefit would be in kilotons, if that is what it would be. We do need to do as much as we can, and if there are measures there, we should exploit them and if they are----

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

There are technical points as well, but we have agreed to that.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank the Minister of State. Does Deputy Whitmore want to come in?

Deputy Jennifer Whitmore

Yes. I will direct this to the Minister of State, Deputy Noonan. The nature restoration laws are being debated today, and it is very tight as to which way they are going to go from the committee. If those laws are not passed, what impact will that have on the Minister of State's plans and the NPWS's plans for peatland restoration? There is a site in Wicklow in the Brockagh area, which is a blue dot catchment, where the NPWS has a restoration project. Directly underneath that on the landscape is a Coillte area where it felled and have replanted with Sitka spruce, and there is draining of blanket bog. I wonder if there is co-ordination between the two entities? The NPWS is trying to do a really good job on the restoration of that bog, and then Coillte completely undermines that work just below it. Could the Minister of State comment on that?

Deputy Malcolm Noonan

I thank Deputy Whitmore. The discussion on the nature restoration law is ongoing. There is a distance to go yet. The Minister for Environment, Climate and Communications, Deputy Eamon Ryan, and I will be in Luxembourg next week.

Separately - and I have said this publicly as well - a lot of restoration work is already under way in this country. There are projects like the wild Atlantic nature project up in the north west and the LIFE on Machair project. There is lots of really good work going on with landowners already. I have been on record as saying that I think it is important that we embark on our own plan, and we can do that. There is an opportunity that exists for landowners, and a lot of the schemes we have are very popular. They love being involved in them. The wild Atlantic nature project paid out something like €2.4 million last month to landowners, with average payments of over €3,000. That is very welcome, and we want to see that type of approach to it. We have the capacity to do it. The bolstering of the NPWS has been really important. We need to continue on that trajectory. It is challenging, because right across every sector of public service and the private sector, it is challenging in terms of recruitment and that, but we are moving a distance on restoration. We should continue that.

I will not comment specifically on the project, but I am familiar with them, and our staff in the Wicklow Mountains National Park are doing fantastic work in restoration, and some in collaboration with the private sector, such as Intel. We have been working with Coillte to look particularly at land where there is Sitka spruce planted on peatland, where they are stranded assets - they are not good lumber value with regard to wood quality - and about rehabilitating those lands. There are projects already under way up in Wild Nephin National Park, and they have been very successful. It is very labour-intensive, and very costly to do it, but it is worthwhile. We know that our blue dot catchments in particular are few and far between, and we need more of them.

We think that regardless of what happens at European level, we should look towards the partnership approach we have with Bord na Móna on peatland restoration. We have been very successful in that regard to date, and with Coillte, other state agencies and private landowners, working towards significant restoration targets around the country.

Deputy Jennifer Whitmore

I thank the Minister of State, and my colleague for letting me in there.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Deputy Whitmore. Senator McGahon is next.

Senator John McGahon

I thank the Chair. It was around 2017 or 2018 when I was on Louth County Council and we first got word of the first retrofitting of local authority homes. Would the Minister or Ministers of State know off the top of their heads, a ballpark figure as to how many homes been retrofitted since that time, when we first began retrofitting local authority homes?

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

What year was the Senator talking about?

Senator John McGahon

We started about 2018 or 2019, if I am not mistaken.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

Does Mr. Armstrong have a figure on that?

Mr. Seán Armstrong

Our overall figures are there.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

I have 2021 onwards.

Senator John McGahon

Okay, excellent.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

Did the retrofitting start in 2021?

Mr. Seán Armstrong

It was a deep retrofit.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

Deep retrofit. The retrofit in 2021 was 1,038. In 2022, it was 2,283.

This year, we are projecting 2,400.

Senator John McGahon

This year it is 2,400.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

Yes, and will increase every year thereafter. It is expected to be 3,500 in 2024, 4,000 in 2025, 4,000 in 2026, 4,500 in 2027, 4,779 in 2028, 5,000 in 2029 and 5,000 in 2030. That is a total of 36,500 up to 2030.

Senator John McGahon

So it is really ramping up. That is excellent. Following on from that, I want to walk back. I ask the Minister of State to excuse my ignorance-----

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

Just before the Deputy moves on, between 2013 and 2022, the total figure for shallow rather than deep retrofits was 75,000.

Senator John McGahon

Wow. That is the figure I was seeking; that is excellent.

To walk back, how is that distributed across local authorities? When the Minister of State says that this year there will be 2,400 units done, how is that broken down throughout the local authorities? Does Dublin City Council tell the Department it has X number of units that it can do this year? Does Louth County Council come to the Department with its figure? How is that figure broken down by local authorities and who gets the lion's share? What determines that Louth gets X number, Meath gets Y number and Cavan gets Z number? I ask the Minister of State to talk me through how the Department breaks that down among the local authorities.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

I have the breakdown for each local authority for 2022. in 2022, the total for Louth was 164.

Senator John McGahon

Is it the case that the local authority in Louth goes to the Department and says it can do 164 units? Where does the figure of 164 come from? What is the difference between Louth doing 164 and Meath doing 180?

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

It is based on performance and total stock. If one looks at the figure for Louth of 164, that is based on its overall stock.

Senator John McGahon

That makes sense

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

If the Deputy wants, we can share the data for 2023.

Senator John McGahon

No, that makes perfect sense. The figure is based on total stock, which will obviously be different for each local authority. That makes perfect sense. That is gets me where I wanted to go, which is excellent.

I wish to make three other points regarding what the Minister said. They do not relate to the Department in a big way, but they are interconnected. The first point relates to solar power. The Department has done excellent work in removing barriers in the context of planning permission that will make it so much easier for people to get involved in solar energy. One of the key issues around climate change that I have raised regularly with the Cathaoirleach and others at this committee is that in order to bring more people on board, we need to make it as financially viable and as simple as possible. We are doing that with solar energy because of the work the Department is doing. However, let us move on and look at what other Departments are doing. I refer, in particular, to what the Department of Finance is doing in the context of tax structures. The Minister of State, Deputy O'Donnell, has a background in this area and might be able to help at another level. If one has agricultural land, for example, and one puts solar panels on more than 51% of it, the land loses its agricultural value. As a result, the farmer or owner would be slapped with a capital gains tax bill if the land was passed on in the future. As a result, there is no incentive for someone in the agricultural sector to put solar panels on more than 50% of his or her land. All that is required to fix would be a simple amendment in the Finance Bill. This is an example of the Government doing really great work in one Department by reducing barriers and red tape while another Department is slowing things down. That is something that Deputy O'Donnell could possibly bring back to the Department of Finance in the context of his role there. I accept that the matter does not come directly under the remit of the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage; I am just giving an example of a situation where one Department is breaking down barriers while other barriers remain in place.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

The Senator will appreciate that is a Department of Finance issue. I have no doubt the Senator has already raised it with the Department but if he has not done so, I suggest that he raises it forthwith. Obviously, the Department of Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage is responsible for planning. However, tax is an issue for the Department of Finance. The latter preserves its territory tightly, so I suggest the Senator makes representations-----

An Cathaoirleach

I suggest that the Minister of State might have some influence-----

Senator John McGahon

That is why we need Ministers to fight the corner of lowly Senators like me.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

That is an oxymoron.

Senator John McGahon

The final point I would like to make is about urban regeneration funding. I have seen how successful that is in my home town of Dundalk. It is absolutely incredible. The Ministers of State, Deputies O'Donnell and Noonan, are both well aware, dereliction breeds dereliction. Where there is one derelict building, that leads to two, three or four derelict buildings in an area. We have pumped serious amounts of finance, millions and millions of euro, into Dundalk in the last couple of years for urban regeneration. It allows people to move back in over the shops in our city and town centres. I am interested in hearing the views of the Ministers of State on this. The Minister of State, Deputy O'Donnell, comes from Limerick and the Minister of State, Deputy Noonan, comes from Kilkenny, both of which are urban settings like the one I come from. Where do they see that urban regeneration funding going? What can it achieve in the next five years or by the end of the decade? What is their vision for urban regeneration and what we can do with it by 2030?

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

As the Senator will be aware, the latest round of funding under the URDF, is very much in keeping with Housing for All and the times we live in. There is a crisis in housing, so urban regeneration serves an important purpose by bringing derelict and vacant units back into use. We expect that the local authorities will use the URDF to purchase old buildings, do them up and sell them on in the main. In that way, they will have a revolving fund. We want this to be a process whereby the councils kick start the process, put a particular framework in place and effectively have a set financing model. The State is giving them a boost. We see this particular round of funding as a kick start for a process that will continue in perpetuity. Some local authorities have it in place. Limerick is developing a model and we want that expanded. The next round of funding that will be available towards the end of the year will go back into the public realm.

The role of the State, through the URDF, is to provide the infrastructure to enable people to bring vibrancy back to urban areas. Where areas are run down and there has been market failure in the private sector, the State steps in and regenerates housing and the public realm. This allows the private sector to flourish, in terms of providing jobs and investment. It also means that people can come and live in these areas. We spoke earlier about the need to reduce the use of private transport for journeys over 20 km-----

An Cathaoirleach

No, it was a reduction of 20% in total vehicle numbers.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

Yes, and the URDF is very much based around large centres of population. The aim of the fund is to put the necessary infrastructure in place. If we rebuild town centres then we can reduce the need for people to use private transport. The whole concept of the 15-minute city is relevant here. My vision is that in when we look back in ten years' time at all main centres of population, we will see an enhanced public realm with promenades and restored buildings which will be in private ownership. That catalyst for that to happen is funding under the URDF.

Deputy Malcolm Noonan

I agree with the Minister of State. I am very familiar with Dundalk. Ten years ago my party colleague, former Senator Mark Deary, walked me through the streets of Dundalk. He was the first to suggest to me the idea of a town centres first policy.

Senator John McGahon

He was a forerunner with that idea nationally as well as locally.

Deputy Malcolm Noonan

Yes, absolutely. He was a real visionary for the town. What has happened in Dundalk is an exemplar that should be replicated in mid-sized towns across the country. The URDF and the myriad schemes the Government has brought forward over the past couple of years are critically important. They have added to the coherence and vibrancy of towns. They have increased the opportunities around mobility, as the Minister of State, Deputy O'Donnell, said, through cycling and walking. I always use the term "funkiness", and the importance of bringing a bit of funkiness back into our towns which means that people will want to live in them. We want families to want to live in them because there is good thermal comfort in the older buildings and there is a healthy night-time as well as day-time economy and vibrancy. That is something we have tried to do across various Departments. The Minister for Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media, Deputy Catherine Martin, has been working on the night-time economy. The Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage has tried to support her in that work by looking at the vibrancy and trying to get people to fall in love with our towns again. We turned our backs on our towns in previous years but what we have managed to do with the URDF, which will continue through the next rounds of funding and through the other schemes we have introduced, is to get down to the fine grain of the fabric of buildings, colour schemes and so on, to look at the public realm, landscaping, nature-based solutions and so on. All of these can add to a real vibrancy in our towns and Dundalk is a fantastic example of that.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

A key feature of the latest round of funding is a focus on dereliction and bring housing back into use.

We want that to be kickstarted for the local authorities and to set up dedicated units and have a revolving fund. They are doing this with a variation of the URDF but with funds generated by their own activities. The State is to step in and it is critical that works. We want all of the local authorities involved. Let us talk about town centre first. All of the local authorities need to have their applications in by 30 June. We are looking forward to see what will happen with those applications.

An Cathaoirleach

I will build on Senator McGahon's contribution and what I said earlier. If we go back and analyse from a carbon displacement point of view the benefit of the renovation of derelict and vacant sites across the country, that could be instructive as we go forward. If that work is being done, it might be useful for us to see the progress. We can infer from the results that it will inform policy as we go on. I encourage the Ministers to think about that.

The URDF is having an incredibly positive impact on urban areas across the country and has had since its inception. There is an opportunity to leverage it now. I will come back to carbon mitigation. We should make it a requirement of URDF funding that a carbon benefit be shown in the application process, which in most cases there will be. If we can show that, we can maybe find these kilotonnes of carbon mitigation we need to reach by 2030. There might be an important piece of work there. It could perhaps be part of the criteria for the next round of URDF, that it aligns with our climate targets.

There is a question which is perhaps more for the Minister for Local Government, Housing and Heritage, Deputy O'Brien. The Ministers of State, Deputies O'Donnell and Noonan, might speak with him about the alignment of the county development plans with the climate action plan. It builds on Senator O'Reilly's earlier contribution. The question is around how we are showing that alignment. The local authorities are going in the right direction in good faith. How are they showing they are strictly aligned with our carbon production targets? It is a fundamentally important question and I am not sure there is an easy answer. It is a difficult piece of work. The Minister of State, Deputy O'Donnell might wish to comment on that now.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

We are in the early stages of the national planning framework review. Key to that will be to link down along in terms of the hierarchy to the climate action plan. As the Chair is aware, the Minister for the Environment, Climate and Communications, Deputy Ryan, has just written to the local authorities asking them to complete their own climate action plans. They are legally required to do that. Within those climate action plans, they will obviously have to make reference to the national climate action plan. We are on a journey. The Minister has just issued guidelines. I think that will be the first step. It is front and centre in terms of the national planning framework. I refer to the regional plans, the county plans and local area plans. That is part of what we are doing under the new planning Act. We are making certain there is consistency and that it percolates down. As I said, this is new, and the Minister, Deputy Ryan, has just written to the local authorities. They will have to do their climate action plans and will have to make reference to the national one and look at their existing plans. At this stage, virtually all counties have new plans. There are only a handful that still have to update their plans. The national planning framework will then be front and centre.

An Cathaoirleach

Am I right in saying that local authorities' climate action plans will essentially supersede the county development plans in order to align with the climate action plan?

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

No. I have not seen the guidelines issued by the Minister. They have just been issued. We will need to see what is in the guidelines from the Minister, Deputy Ryan.

An Cathaoirleach

The concern would be acknowledging that we are on glide path and there is percolation from the review of the national planning framework to the regional spatial strategies and so on. That is a slow process. By the time it distils through to the county development plans it could be towards the end of the decade. Meanwhile your sectoral emissions ceilings or carbon budgets might be breached. The concern would be that there is not that alignment at the local level or that it will come too late.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

It is simple. What instructions has the Minister given to the local authorities? We are in the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage. Local authorities fall within our remit. However, the policy side is coming from the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications. The Minister has issued that. It came directly from him. I take the point, and it is something we will clarify.

An Cathaoirleach

Will the Minister of State come back to the committee with a briefing note on the approach?

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

Yes.

An Cathaoirleach

We would certainly appreciate that.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

It is something on which we link up with the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications. The Chair will appreciate that it has issued the guidelines to the local authorities.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank the Minister of State. I will pick up on another earlier contribution about embodied carbon. We discussed embodied carbon in new buildings and valuing it in existing buildings too. I appreciate the work his Department is doing in that area. This is perhaps more related to his responsibility for planning. There is embodied carbon in road construction as well. While acknowledging we need some new roads, we also have to acknowledge there is an embodied carbon element in the construction of new roads. Much of that will be captured in other areas in the construction sector. However, is there a planning piece there? Is there a role for the Minister of State's Department in valuing and accounting for the amount of embodied carbon in these big new infrastructure projects? This not only refers to road projects, but to other major developments like port development and so on, which we need. We need to know how much carbon is associated with this infrastructure. While acknowledging that carbon will be reduced in the other sectors, it is still important to know on a project by project basis how much carbon is associated with them. That is why we are doing it in the housing sector, to acknowledge Deputy Bruton's point. It is not actually in our targets. In a way it is contained in the other sectors. There is an important piece there about understanding the amount of carbon in these big new infrastructural projects. The Minister of State might tell us if any work is being done in that area. Related to that is an induced carbon piece on building new roads because of the impact it has on planning and dispersed settlement and so on. I would think there is a role for the Minister of State's Department in figuring out how much carbon is associated, both as embodied carbon and induced carbon through driving. That is notwithstanding that we are moving as much as we can towards low emission transport.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

The Chair will appreciate, in terms of planning, that it crosses Departments. In our case, we are before the committee this morning to look at how we are dealing with our targets within housing. There is a range of Departments here. We have a direct remit under building controls, retrofit, the social housing programme and so on. The Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment is currently leading a decarbonisation of cement working group. The Chair is probably well aware of that. The updated national development plan has a climate assessment aspect as well. Our role in planning is to deal with laying down the framework for assessment of planning applications by local authorities and by extension An Bord Pleanála.

At the moment, we are looking at how we deal with large strategic investment projects and how they should be streamlined to An Bord Pleanála. In terms of measurements, the Department of Transport has its own targets on climate change.

An Cathaoirleach

I totally understand. On the planning aspect, that might be considered as part of the review of the national planning framework. It is not just about roads. Ports, for example, are a big part of it and involve the use of a huge amount of concrete. We absolutely need ports, especially the massively upgraded ones required to advance the renewable energy ambition we have. With the planning aspect, it goes back to the accounting side of it. If it were made a requirement of any infrastructural project to state as part of the process that a certain amount of carbon will be associated with it, that would be very helpful. That is where we are trying to get to on the housing side.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

I take the Cathaoirleach's point. On a general note, as he will be well aware, any planning authority, where it believes it necessary, can attach conditions regarding demolition and construction waste. There is a wider issue in that people may apply for applications for physical destruction before going to the EPA. There is a question as to whether that should change, requiring them to go to the EPA first and then deal with the physical structure.

As I said, the Department of Transport is responsible for meeting its own targets. This particular area falls under its direct remit. We are responsible for reaching targets on housing, much of the policy on which is being directed by another Department. There is a broader discussion on how to meet our targets. Ultimately, we have climate action legislation that is basically under the remit of the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications and its Minister, Deputy Eamon Ryan. He has written to local authorities about their climate action plans. I take the Cathaoirleach's point but there is a wider question that applies across Departments, not just specifically to the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage.

An Cathaoirleach

I absolutely agree.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

I take the Cathaoirleach's point.

An Cathaoirleach

I appreciate that. It is really about understanding the carbon impact at a project-specific level.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

The climate targets have been set down per individual Department. Each Department has a responsibility in this. We cannot take on the world.

An Cathaoirleach

Absolutely.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

The Cathaoirleach's point is well made.

An Cathaoirleach

The review of the national planning framework might be where we start to look at this. It can be our guide path.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

We have already stated that as part of the review of the national planning framework, the whole area of climate change and action will be front and centre.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank the Minister of State.

Deputy Malcolm Noonan

The Cathaoirleach raised the issue of induced traffic or traffic generated by a road project. That is a planning matter when planning authorities or An Bord Pleanála are giving consideration to a project. Sometimes, induced traffic is overlooked, as has happened in the past. It is a really interesting phenomenon that is being studied globally. Having the ability to factor in the increased emissions caused by a road project generating extra traffic is an interesting point that should be explored further.

An Cathaoirleach

I welcome the responses from the Ministers of State. As no other members are indicating, we will conclude. I sincerely thank the Minister, who had to leave a little earlier, and the Ministers of State for their time this morning. They really had their homework done, which the committee appreciates. This is the first time the committee has had the Minister and Ministers of State from the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage before it to discuss the climate action plan. It has been a very valuable engagement, which we intend to make an annual process into the future. I have no doubt, year on year, the Minister, the Ministers of State and their successors will continue to be as diligently prepared as they were today. This engagement shows how the climate legislation is encouraging Departments and Ministers in a direction to develop climate action plans, implement them and adhere to them. Today's meeting is a strong example of that. I thank the Minister and Ministers of State and wish them well with that implementation as we move forward.

The joint committee adjourned at 11.05 a.m. until 11 a.m. on Tuesday, 20 June 2023.