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JOINT COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENT AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT debate -
Tuesday, 7 Mar 2006

EU Environment Council: Ministerial Presentation.

I welcome the Minister and his officials and thank them for attending. These discussions in advance of meetings of the EU Council of Environment Ministers have become an integral part of the joint committee's annual work programme. The committee appreciates the time taken by the Minister and his officials to attend. We greatly value these briefings as an important part of the EU scrutiny process introduced by the Government to enhance the role of its officers in the EU legislative process.

I propose that following the Minister's presentation there be a question and answer session as usual. I invite the Minister to commence.

I have rather a long script which I intend to truncate because I must attend the Seanad to take Second Stage of the Planning and Development (Strategic Infrastructure) Bill.

This is the first opportunity I have had to address the committee since it held discussions with Professor McGlade regarding the European Environment Agency report, the transcript of which I read. I noted some of its points. I also held interesting meetings with Professor McGlade prior to the committee's meeting with her. I had suggested to her during the European Environment Council meeting that she appear if she were invited to do so. I was delighted that the committee invited her to come before it.

The issue is complex and I have some quibbles with Professor McGlade's methodology, which rejects 241 indicators and focuses on only nine. As she explained, however, that is how she must operate. I was pleased with her comments that Ireland is doing as well as any other country in addressing environmental challenges.

I was pleased that the Commissioner for Environment, Stavros Dimas, visited Ireland last week. I asked him several times to do so because we have been obliged to deal with so many issues, some of which have been referred to court and led to proceedings being taken against us. While here, Commissioner Dimas opened the waste electrical and electronic equipment, WEEE, processing facility at Park West in Dublin. He complimented us on leading the way in respect of the WEEE directive.

The Commissioner was also involved in the launch of the Environmental Protection Agency's, EPA, environmental technologies programme. While it is not my business to suggest the work the committee might undertake, it would be interesting for it to hear from the EPA about its technologies programme, particularly the promotion of new technologies in this area. That programme provides funding for third level institutions and companies and forms part of a new initiative to boost the development of environmental technology. I know the committee views this as a win-win process because not only can it improve our environmental performance but there are also real economic benefits.

I took the opportunity to introduce Commissioner Dimas to officials from my Department, the EPA and the Office of Environmental Enforcement, OEE, and outlined the work we are doing in respect of environmental impact assessment, nature, water waste and enforcement. These are issues in respect of which the Commission has taken proceedings against us and I was anxious for him to see at first hand the progress being made and the effort put into meeting our environmental responsibilities.

One of my ambitions is to take Ireland from its position in terms of infringement proceedings to a better position on the league table, as I did when I was Minister of State with responsibility for European Affairs in the Department of Foreign Affairs.

I thank the Chairman for the opportunity to present to the committee the agenda for this month's meeting of the EU Environment Council. The meeting will take place in Brussels on Thursday, 9 March. The Austrian Presidency has put together a long and ambitious agenda which provides that the Council will adopt conclusions on five issues, have policy debates on four others and hear a progress report on the tenth.

We are reminded of the global and transboundary nature of environmental challenges when we note the inclusion in the agenda of the thematic strategy on air pollution the convention on biological diversity and its protocol on biosafety, climate change, the convention on persistent organic pollutants and the assessment and management of floods. Of a less global nature but no less important are the other agenda items: GMOs, Euro 5 standards for emissions from cars and the thematic strategy on waste. The discussion on the Euro 5 standards will be interesting because the issue of particulates will be considered. We will also discuss the Environment Council contribution to the Spring European Council and the review of the EU sustainable development strategy. These two agenda items, in particular, allow us, as Environment Ministers, to contribute to and influence the necessary cross-sectoral and integrated approach to achieving our environmental ambitions which are set out in the European Union's sixth environment action programme for the period 2001 to 2010. Seven thematic strategies underpin that programme and we will discuss two of them on Thursday. The thematic strategies are a new direction for environment policy, providing for an integrated approach to policy development, while also allowing for simplification of legislation. This is vital in view of the complexity and cross-cutting nature of some of the legislation and the need for it to be more clear-cut and focused.

We will also have a policy debate on the thematic strategy for the prevention and recycling of waste which was published last December. The draft of this strategy provided the focus for the informal Environment Council during the 2004 Irish Presidency. It is, therefore, an issue of which we have a sense of ownership. The final document generally reflects the conclusions adopted at that meeting and the priorities identified by the Irish Presidency. The core objective of the strategy is to move towards making Europe a recycling society using the Internal Market as a driver to optimise recycling. The strategy also proposes the improvement of the regulatory environment through the modernisation and streamlining of waste legislation. This will include the amendment of the waste framework directive, for which I understand proposals will be considered by this committee later this month as part of the Oireachtas scrutiny process.

In December the Council held a policy debate on the thematic strategy on air pollution. The strategy and its proposals for a new directive were broadly welcomed. We will adopt conclusions on the strategy which establishes the Commission's level of ambition for air quality across the European Union for 2020. The strategy also proposes a long-term commitment to reducing air pollution to improve public health and the environment. I will not dwell on the details of the strategy because members had an opportunity to discuss it with my officials last Wednesday.

We will also have a policy debate at the Council on one of the measures complementing the thematic strategy on air pollution. This is the proposal for a regulation on type approval of motor vehicles with respect to emissions. The aim of the regulation, known as Euro 5, is to further reduce the emissions of pollutants from new passenger cars and light commercial vehicles. While Ireland's air quality remains good overall, recent EPA reports identify transport emissions as the greatest threat to our air quality. Any initiative that helps us manage that threat is welcome.

The Council will adopt conclusions in preparation for a meeting on the convention on persistent organic pollutants. Concerns regarding exposure to these pollutants, from the perspective of health and environmental impacts, are best addressed through the effective and further implementation of the convention. I will support the proposed Council conclusions in this regard.

No. 5 on the Council agenda provides for the continuation of discussions on the European approach to the future use of GM technology. This item was on the agenda for the December meeting. Discussions on that occasion broached many aspects of the policy to be followed, ranging from further research on potential risks and benefits of GM technology to the comitology procedures under which decisions can be made.

At the March Council I expect contributions covering a wide range of views on the authorisation procedures generally will be made. While the authorisation procedures under the deliberate release directive and the food and feed regulation are comparable in many respects, the divergence in the area of risk assessment is notable. Under the deliberate release directive, risk assessment is carried out at competent authority level, with any differences in opinion referred to the European Food Safety Agency for resolution. Under the more recent food and feed regulation, a single risk assessment is performed by that agency.

It is useful to explore the contrasting approaches. The food and feed regulation might appear to have the edge in terms of consistency of approach. On the other hand, it might be said the deliberate release directive fosters wider participation. The issue of subsidiarity is also raised. As I stated to this committee last December, it remains early days in testing the procedures under the directive and the regulation, a view shared by many of our European colleagues. Attitudes are beginning to change and some previously hard attitudes such as those held by the Danes seem to be shifting slightly. It will be interesting to see what occurs at that meeting and whether changes will be made. The committee will be informed afterwards. The Austrian Presidency is arranging a conference of experts in Vienna in April to focus on the role of precaution in GMO policy. I will ensure this committee is fully briefed as it will become a significant issue and is one about which we are all concerned.

As the committee will appreciate, Ministers will have limited time to explore this issue at Council. Furthermore, the Presidency's conference in April offers an opportunity to get into the detail of the subject matter. I have little doubt that this matter will return to the Council at our meeting in June. At that stage we will have as input the outcome of the deliberations of the experts in April, the final text of the World Trade Organisation's ruling on the GMO case brought by Canada against the European Union and the Commission's analysis of the operation of the deliberate release directive and the food and feed regulation. We will then be in a better position to have a substantive debate on the issue at Council level. I suggest this committee should then have a single focus discussion on it. We must get our heads around the many changes that will occur in this area.

A related issue on the agenda is our conclusions on negotiating priorities for the European Union at the meeting in Brazil later this month of the parties to the Cartagena Protocol on biosafety. The protocol seeks to ensure an adequate level of protection in the safe transfer, handling and use of living modified organisms resulting from modern biotechnology that may have adverse effects on the conservation and sustainable use of biological diversity. This takes into account risks to human health and specifically focuses on transboundary movements. The European Union's main priority at the meeting will be to secure progress on the issues of handling, transport and identification of living modified organisms intended for direct use as food or feed. If such progress can be made at this month's meeting, it will represent a significant achievement for the European Union and the vast majority of parties who wish to improve controls in this area. Many in Europe are anxious to have a better focus on controls.

Immediately following this meeting the eighth meeting of the conference of the parties to the Convention on Biological Diversity will be held. At Council we will adopt conclusions on the position to be taken by the European Union on a number of issues affecting the operation of the convention and its processes. Key areas of the convention will also be covered in the conclusions, including marine biodiversity, protected areas, financing biodiversity, national implementation and public awareness. I look forward to a good outcome for the European Union at both meetings.

Immediately after I met the committee about the December Council, I attended the 11th conference of the parties to the UN Framework Convention on Climate Change and the first meeting of the parties to the Kyoto Protocol in Montreal. The success of that meeting has been well documented. At Council, we will consider the outcome and record the European Union's welcome for the decisions made and agreement reached at the meeting.

I have some issues with the conclusions, as currently drafted, for this week's Council meeting and I will make this point at the meeting. I am of the view that the language proposed does not convey the leadership the EU has shown in the past. The language in the conclusions adopted by the Heads of State and Government at their spring Council last year on climate change had a discernible effect on the international negotiations and gave credibility to the EU position. Weaker language will take us back from that position and weaken the impact of the EU's leadership. Last year's language showed that we are willing to lead by example and are serious about taking the steps necessary to tackle climate change. At the Council meeting, I will recommend the re-inclusion this year of the language agreed in 2005.

We will hear a progress report on the proposal for a directive on the assessment and management of floods. The aim of this proposal is to reduce and manage flood-related risks to human health, the environment, infrastructure and property. It will require significant integration with the water framework directive in terms of public consultation, organisational process, reporting and governance. While this is a matter for my colleague, the Minister of State responsible for the Office of Public Works, Deputy Parlon, the issue is nonetheless discussed at the Environment Council. Ireland generally welcomes the proposal and we have actively participated in its development. We have an issue with the reporting arrangements in that the proposals are not suitable for the Irish circumstances of different ministerial responsibilities for the water framework directive and flood management. I will raise this matter at Council. I am sure Ireland is not the only country that has dual ministerial responsibility in this regard.

The Environment Council is one of a number of Council formations that will make contributions to the spring meeting of the EU Heads of State and Government. We will invite the European Council to recognise: the potential of environment policy to impact positively on public health, social inclusion and cohesion and energy security and efficiency; the need to continue to integrate environmental considerations into the Lisbon agenda; and that the efficient use of natural resources contributes to growth and competitiveness. I have made the point several times that the energy efficiency, which is inherent in the direction Europe is taking, particularly under the Lisbon Agenda, will give Europe a long-term economic lead on countries that are less focussed on this issue.

My wish is to preserve the recognition of the importance of the environment, both within the Lisbon strategy and in the minds of Heads of Government at the spring Council. As stated, we must not allow economic competitiveness and environmental concerns to compete with each other for short-term gain or solutions because they are not in competition and run in harmony. Rather, we must view them as co-dependents offering great opportunities from the long-term perspective. If Ireland can focus on this issue, we will see its value.

I referred earlier to new technology. There is much work to be done in this regard and a significant economic benefit to be realised from it.

We do not take the view that we should simply follow a European lead in terms of introducing measures to protect the environment. Budget 2006 saw the introduction of a €20 million carbon fund, the extension of VRT relief for hybrid cars, a significant increase in the relief for biofuels and the allocation of €20 million for a new recycling and remediation fund. This comes on top of a major increase in the level of recycling facilities, concerted action against illegal dumping, significant improvements in the treatment of wastewater and steady progress in drinking water quality. Progress is continuing.

I referred to the launch of the Environmental Protection Agency's ETAP awards, whereby €3 million was made available for 15 eco-innovation projects. More generally, the agency has provided €30 million over the period 2001 to 2006 under its environmental research and technological development innovation programme. This will leave us well placed in Europe to play our part fully in the development and application of eco-technologies.

The Lisbon strategy and the sustainable development strategy are closely linked and their aims are mutually supportive. At Council we will also debate the current review of the EU sustainable development strategy. The Commission has achieved a good and balanced mix in the review. I welcome all initiatives that will deliver clearer objectives, establish targets and communicate the strategy in a more accessible manner. I particularly welcome the priority being given to climate change. I look forward to the completion of the review before the June Council, the preparations for which we will discuss with the committee prior to the meeting.

There are six items under the heading "Other Business", namely, reports by the Presidency on two conferences held in Vienna in January, one entitled, Greening Events, the other, Environmentally-Friendly Travelling in Europe. The Presidency will report on the outcome of the first international conference on chemicals management held in Dubai last month, at which the strategic approach to international chemicals management was agreed. The Presidency will provide information on a follow-up to the communication from the Commission on the biomass action plan and an EU strategy for biofuels. At the request of several Mediterranean member states, the issue of European action on water scarcity and droughts will be raised. At the request of the German delegation, the issue of environmentally sound and crop-friendly use of biodegradable waste will be raised.

That is an outline of a busy agenda. I look forward to the committee's questions.

I thank the Minister for the comprehensive overview of the Council agenda. We intend to visit the EPA offices in Wexford before Easter when we can discuss its technologies programme. We can put the food and feed regulation on the agenda for further discussion.

I welcome the Minister and thank him for his presentation. He has mentioned that there will be a policy debate on the thematic strategy for the prevention and recycling of waste published last December. He said, "The core objective of the strategy is to move towards making Europe a recycling society using the Internal Market as a driver to optimise recycling." How do we compare with other EU countries in recycling waste products?

We have a serious problem in acquiring markets for recycled products. For example, the Government has collected levies for plastic wraps around bales but there is no system in place for collecting those wraps. I know several farmers who have been waiting for two years for their used wraps to be collected. They are concerned because this affects their REPS payments, etc. There is a similar situation in respect of the collection of glass, paper, cardboard and so on. We do not seem to be able to find markets and have not streamlined waste processing. Is this a problem throughout Europe?

That is an interesting and comprehensive question. Government policy was elaborated on in several policy documents. The most recent EPA figures show that we have made significant progress in several areas, for example, recycling. In 1998 we were recycling approximately 9% of our waste but this figure rose to 34% in 2004. We are meeting the targets we set ourselves for that period. Our target for 2013 was 35%. Therefore, we have done well in that regard.

We are almost victims of our own success. The Irish farm plastics initiative which operates under the aegis of the farming organisations, particularly the IFA, is a classic example. Last year they collected in the order of 12,000 tonnes of plastic farm wrap which they have to export because there is no reprocessing facility here. It has to be exported to Scotland and they must pay export costs. They must also pay a gate fee on entry. They have been in talks with a number of Irish entrepreneurs who are considering recycling the product here and turning it into valuable by-products.

We took a political risk in introducing the WEEE initiative last August but it is working. A particular success is the centre initiated by Commissioner Dimas and me in Park West, where it is extraordinary to see product coming from waste. This centre is producing metal filings and a variety of material, all of which is recyclable and becomes a commodity for export.

In terms of packaging waste, the 56% level achieved in 2004 means we exceeded our 2005 target. There has also been a major increase in bring centres; the current figure of some 2,000 represents a doubling of the numbers in a short period. We compare well with other member states given the position from which we started. However, there is much work still to do. If we are to have the same recovery levels other countries have reached — the objective would be a breakdown of 40% recycled, 40% for heat energy recovery and the balance into landfill — we must roll out infrastructure and make the decisions other states have already made. CHP incineration is one of the issues about which we must make decisions. Even with the exponential increase in kerbside waste services, for example, we are still significantly over-dependent on landfill, which accounts for some 72% of our waste. This is not a solution but a problem we are passing on to future generations.

Major improvements have been made. Deputy Gilmore observed that these improvements are a significant achievement for the Irish people, who respond positively when recycling facilities are available. People have taken to the process of recycling and the focus must be on continuing to roll out the facilities. The next challenge will be to provide places for these materials to be treated and used. The company operating the Park West facility was formerly IAWS Co-op. This is a good example of Irish entrepreneurs investing in this area. There is a smaller but equally impressive operation in County Louth where cathode ray tubes and televisions are recycled and turned into valuable materials for sale. The objective is not to put the material into a landfill or skip and export it elsewhere; the secret is to extract the valuable raw materials contained in that waste.

It would be interesting for the committee to consider some of the emerging initiatives in the WEEE area. It is impressive to see precious and semi-precious materials, including aluminium and other metals, being extracted from the recycling system. If we as legislators make the decisions that create critical mass in terms of waste and waste that can be recovered, Irish business will support that endeavour and will produce valuable and sustainable jobs from it. There is no doubt this is a major challenge. Fantastic work has been done in regard to farm plastics, for example, and those involved deserve tremendous credit. They encountered difficulties with collection last year, however, and many farmers are tearing their hair out because they say they paid the levy and are waiting for the waste to be collected.

It seems Enterprise Ireland is not particularly confident in providing support to those wishing to move into recycling industries. Several people have contacted me to say they were given the impression that a recycling business is a non-runner. This must be addressed. People who are interested in establishing recycling businesses must be given more support.

A market development group is looking at the various issues in regard to developing the recycling industry. Senator Bannon is correct that encouragement must be given. In County Louth I came across a small operation, with only three or four employees, involved in taking old plasterboards from construction and development waste. One of our major successes has been in the area of construction and development waste. One must consider the people who advocate zero waste and analyse the figures they present, such as Professor Connett who discussed Canberra. The waste in Canberra was reduced from 400,000 tonnes to 200,000 tonnes by recycling all construction and development materials. We are now doing that, and have achieved 85% recycling in that area because of good decisions made by individuals who now use construction and development waste. In the extraordinary example I saw in County Louth, a small farm has become a centre for recycling plaster board. It sells the plaster board to a large company. The exterior papers are baled, turned into combustible materials and exported for profit.

We are not deficient in this area. We are probably late in realising its potential because one must first collect the materials in critical mass. We have begun to do so. Material recovery facilities are opening up, and one or two private operators are entering the field in a major way. Regarding the facility in Park West, it would surprise the committee to see the results of a courageous decision by an Irish corporation following the decision to sign into effect the waste electronic and electrical equipment directive. In that one facility, 50 jobs will be created as will high-value raw material which can be exported. It will be able to handle all of the electrical waste product of the entire island of Ireland. That is a win-win situation. Instead of tens of thousands of tonnes of highly dangerous electrical waste going into land fill, it will be reprocessed. We have a long way to go but we have come a long way already.

We had better move on.

I join in welcoming the Minister and his officials. The Minister digressed before discussing the detail of the agenda for Thursday's meeting and I also wish to do so. This committee had an interesting exchange with Professor McGlade and I am glad the Minister read the transcript. I do not concur that Professor McGlade gave the Minister's and Ireland's performance on the environment the glowing approval rating the Minister interpreted from what she stated to him.

Professor McGlade told the committee we were banded with Spain and Portugal and were struggling with the difficulties presented by our historical legacy on the environment and the nature of our development. It came down to our difficulties with housing and traffic, which was no surprise to the general public. In terms of where it leaves us, it was not with the "A+" the Minister thinks we received. If it were a school report, it would state we were doing all right in the circumstances but with plenty of room for improvement.

In the discussion with Professor McGlade, I was struck by what she stated on the resource available to the European Environment Agency, EEA, to project the way in which development is likely to take place in this country. She stated the EEA has models to enable it to project the pattern of development for 20 years into the future. That would be an extremely valuable resource in terms of reviewing the national spatial strategy, if it is still in place or has status. In that context, is it intended to review the national spatial strategy in advance of the Government reaching conclusions on the next round of the national development plan?

With regard to the visit of Commissioner Dimas, I suggest to the Minister that the Commissioner might liaise with the committee on the next occasion on which he visits Ireland. Given our experience with Professor McGlade, that might be useful. Moreover, the Commissioner might welcome the opportunity to address a parliamentary forum.

While I would have liked the committee to have met Commissioner Dimas, his two-day schedule was not in my hands.

I appreciate that.

I invited him to come to Ireland. At one stage, I suggested quietly to him that I would have liked it. A meeting with members should happen in future. I agree with the Deputy.

I have some questions on the detail of what is a long agenda for the Environment Council meeting on Thursday. Is there anything on the A-list to which the Minister did not make specific reference? If so, could he indicate what is on that list for the agenda?

I listened to what the Minister said and, in particular, read some of the comments he made off script in regard to GMOs. It seems that a softening-up process is under way in advance of a change of European Union position on GMOs. The EU has been under pressure for some time, particularly from across the Atlantic, to loosen its traditionally precautionary approach on GMOs. Given what the Minister said and in view of the sequence of meetings, the policy discussion at the forthcoming Council meeting and the discussion that will take place at the Presidency event in April and again in June, it seems that we are being softened up for a change in the EU's position on GMOs. The committee should have a separate discussion on GMOs and it should receive a complete briefing as to what is happening in this regard at EU level.

The two items in respect of which I would like to hear more are the proposals on motor vehicles and biodiversity, on which the Council is due to reach a conclusion on Thursday. Will the Minister flag the practical implications of these items and how they are likely to have a direct impact? If a new directive on biodiversity is introduced, will agricultural issues arise in the future? Will the Minister indicate what might be the nature of these issues? While I would welcome the addressing of motor vehicle emissions, the exact measures that are in the pipeline should be spelled out so that, when everything is done and dusted, we will not become involved in a row with the motor industry and have Society of the Irish Motor Industry inform us that garages will go out of business and so on. We need to know what is happening.

My next point relates to the issue of climate change and the spring Council. I am somewhat surprised that what is proposed to be sent to the spring Council from the Environment Council is somewhat waffly. We are all in favour of a clean environment and the Environment Council has a contribution to make. In light of the European Union's position on climate change and what is happening in respect of security of energy supplies under the Lisbon Agenda, is it not past time the Environment and Energy Councils sought to link climate change and energy to establish certainty for the future in respect of these developments? They could do this through the spring and succeeding meetings.

We hear a great deal about the competitiveness of Europe. While sending the conclusions to the spring Council of Heads of State may be a good and affirmative action on the environment, should not the environment and energy Ministers ask the Heads of State in Europe to address the climate change and energy issues in tandem? We know the climate change agenda and the energy problem. They should set down, not just for 2012 but for 2020 and beyond, a definite future plan to which industry and business can respond and in respect of which each will know its role. I am somewhat disappointed by what it is proposed to send to the Heads of State.

I will deal first with the Deputy's final point. Rather like the camel that is said to be a horse designed by a committee, the language of the Council comes from COREPER and goes through the Presidency. I do not disagree with the Deputy that there are places in which Europe has done well out of new technologies. I refer, for example, to Denmark, which is a world leader in wind technology. This demonstrates the Deputy's point, namely, that if Europe was more focused on this, it could become the world leader in the production of ethanol and biodiesel and the use of alternative energy sources. I do not disagree with the Deputy but the drafting of the conclusions will not be in my gift.

There is significant capacity for this within Europe, across the Councils that deal with environment, energy, and agriculture. One could see positive factors in the major challenges to agriculture. Someone recently informed me that wood pellets to be used in the new pellet central heating systems, which are coming on stream here and which will be grant assisted, are being imported from Canada. That is ludicrous. With focus instead of diplomatic language, Europe could do more in this regard.

Professor McGlade said that Ireland is doing as well as any other country.

That was not an unqualified compliment.

She also said——

It does not matter. The Minister is in a hurry.

I am in a hurry, as is the Deputy who does not want to listen to what I have to say.

I wish to clarify what Professor McGlade said. She stated that we are fortunate to have a Minister who is prepared to stand up to vested interests.

I receive a great deal of support from this committee and I cannot take all the credit. The professor was referring to the implementation of the WEEE directive in respect of which I received good support from Opposition spokespersons. It was easy to make the decision when I knew people were behind me. It is not easy to make such a decision otherwise.

The professor made the point that because Ireland is undergoing a period of rapid economic progress, it is natural we should encounter challenges. While we were all disappointed the recent EPA report showed our emissions have increased by 0.45%, this comes in a period when average economic growth was, at 4.5%, ten times greater. There is an issue of decoupling in this regard.

The other point she raised, both to me in private and during the course of the Council, relates to Ireland's performance in terms of the indicators. She has perfectly logical reasons for taking nine out of the 250 indicators. Some of the issues raised will have a major impact. Deputy Gilmore is correct, for example, about transport movements. The difficulties in regard to transport and logistics in the context of the economic progress we have made relate to our low score in that area. We are likely to score low on the indicator that deals with ozone, for example, not because we are producing it in a particularly significant way but because we are positioned on the western seaboard of Europe, in an environment in which it is naturally arising from the sea. In summary, Professor McGlade concluded we have much done and much to do.

There is a general welcome for the Euro 5 standards. I amad idem with Deputy Gilmore on this issue. Vested interests in the motor industry will not lean on us in regard to these provisions as they have done or will try to do in other areas. In regard to end-of-life vehicles, for example, I said recently that I was fed up after six years of discussions. I am now ready to sign the relevant regulations and those concerned can get in line. In the case of the Euro 5 standards, however, there are not the same issues because we are not a producer of cars. Germany, a major car producer, sees an economic advantage in the Euro 5 provisions, particularly the measures dealing with particulates from the diesel industry. Europe will do well to introduce the PM10 standard, which relates to emissions such as nitrogen oxide and particulates and is rather technical, and even move beyond it. We encourage and support that objective.

In regard to GMOs, I did not intend to give the impression Europe is diverting from its former position. The Austrian Presidency has a firm view on this issue and is very strongly in the anti-GMO camp. I am not sure other countries take such a strong position. In the case of some states that take a positive leadership stance on environmental issues, their position in the GMO debate is somewhat different from what one might anticipate. The main change we may see is that a larger anti-GMO grouping will begin to form within Europe. I do not, however, get the impression we are being softened up for a capitulation. Rather, more nuanced responses are emerging on the GMO issue. I do not wish to be unfair by mentioning Denmark but it is the example that comes to mind when I recall comments made on this issue. It seems there is a willingness to consider issues like risk analysis and so on and these may form the focus of the debate. I do not believe there will be a collapse into the pro-GMO lobby in Europe but more nuanced positions are emerging.

Have there been any developments in regard to enhanced co-operation?

There was a concern that in the absence of decisiveness at Council level, comitology would kick in and the Commission would do as it has done in other areas, namely, make decisions that may not be in accordance with my views or those of this committee. Under the comitology approach, where there is a failure to be decisive, the Commission moves in and takes the decision. I believe this is a mistake. It is far better for the Council to make the decisions, even if they are sometimes the wrong ones, rather than surrendering the political field. I strongly believe we, as politicians, should make policy decisions rather than allow that role to slip over to an executive.

Is it planned to reform the comitology procedure and will the Minister argue in favour of it?

That matter cuts across all issues and will not be debated at the Environment Council. It arises from time to time. The procedure evolved over the years until we arrived at the current position. It was discussed at the time of the Convention on the Future of Europe.

No. 7 on the Council agenda is the assessment and management of floods. The Minister correctly pointed out that the draft directive provides for flood mapping in areas at risk of flooding and that the Minister of State at the Department of Finance, Deputy Parlon, has responsibility for the OPW providing maps of areas at such risk throughout the State. Will the Minister's responsibilities at the Department of Environment, Heritage and Local Government regarding planning and development implications for local authorities require legislation to be implemented? A risk of flooding to lands zoned for housing developments in local authority plans may come to light following the mapping project. It may affect vast tracts of land adjoining towns and villages. Where planning permission has been granted in such circumstances, under the directive, who will have responsibility for funding——

I do not believe that issue will arise directly. At present, local authorities are required to factor flooding into planning decisions. This matter arises from time to time. An extremely lively debate took place in Bray regarding whether flood relief or flood protection will be provided if a particular development proceeds. Mr. Tom Sherlock from the OPW is present and this issue is dealt with on a cross-departmental basis.

The question I asked——

The Senator will be aware that, as Minister and under section 30 of the Act, I am precluded from making pronouncements on individual cases. I do not want to see any part of my town flooded.

The point I wish to raise——

Is the Minister for or against it?

I am in favour of flood protection works.

Two weeks ago, a Sunday newspaper published an article which stated that the Minister will bring forward legislation on flood risk as a result of this directive. Will he elaborate on that matter?

We intend to scrutinise the matter. It is on our agenda.

As matters stand, the law on planning requires local authorities to take cognisance of flooding and to be prudent in granting planning permission. One cannot decide simply to give planning permission where flooding issues arise. This returns to Deputy Gilmore's point. Local authorities must be extremely prudent in deciding whether to grant planning permission in an area likely to be flooded and they must build in protection. The proposal for the directive has a much wider context regarding how Europe, in its entirety, deals with the issue of flooding and we will participate in it.

Yes. However, I am concerned about lands already zoned by local authorities. The Minister mentioned that the OPW will carry out flood risk analysis on a nationwide basis. Where lands zoned are found to be in flood basins, who will be responsible for carrying out remedial work?

Local authorities should not recklessly grant planning permission in flood plains.

Local authorities may have zoned land that will, under the directive, give rise to difficulties.

I apologise, the Senator is referring to problems that may come to light after the directive is implemented. Local authorities must review their zonings from time to time. River basin flood management plans are well-developed here and local authorities must be cognisant of them. I do not anticipate this directive will state anything new about the location of a flood plain or a potential flood plain. A local authority will obviously be in a much better position to determine that than someone sitting at a desk in Brussels. That is the reason local authorities deal with planning applications and must be careful. As the member knows, the OPW reviews flood issues and flood relief works as required. It has a programme in place for continually assessing and reassessing the optimum balance between the structural and non-structural measures that can be taken. We have an active interest in this issue. I would not anticipate that the European Union would put itself in the place we should be in. We should be taking this action and not have to be told by the Union that one does not build in an area which is likely to flood. If the Senator draws my attention to the newspaper article, I will read it closely.

It was inThe Sunday Times last week.

It must be true.

Last week the Sub-Committee on European Scrutiny referred COM (2006) 15 on the assessment and management of floods to the committee for further scrutiny.

One of the interesting points is that flood hazard maps will be produced and made available on the Internet.

To return to the Senator's question, those buying property might not know an area has the potential to flood. It is important that such information is available. The availability of comprehensive flood hazard maps will be generally seen to be positive and leave us in a better position to undertake the debate we need on planning.

That concludes questions. I thank the Minister and his officials for making themselves available. We wish the Minister well in his deliberations at the Council meeting.

To take up Deputy Gilmore's point, I had been hopeful that the Commissioner would come before the committee or organise a lunch which committee members would attend, although it would be much better if they met in public session. I am grateful to the Commissioner for the time he gave us but it would be good practice to meet the committee. If he returns to Ireland, I will make that point which is a good one.

The Minister may not be in office by the time the Commissioner returns.

I may be in the Department of Finance or the Department of Foreign Affairs, or somewhere higher.

There is no end to the Minister's ambition.

The joint committee went into private session at 3.05 p.m. and adjourned at 3.10 p.m. sine die.

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