JOINT COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENT AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT debate -
Wednesday, 18 Oct 2006

Sustainable Rural Housing Guidelines for Planning Authorities: Ministerial Presentation.

Chairman

On 19 July 2006 this committee called for a debate on the implementation of the sustainable rural housing guidelines for planning authorities. I am grateful to the Minister for attending. The chairman of An Bord Pleanála will attend this meeting later this morning as, owing to the independent quasi-judicial role of the board, he feels it more appropriate to await the Minister's departure before joining us.

In preparation for this meeting the clerk has written to each local authority inquiring about its participation in the guidelines and a variety of replies have been received and circulated. Perhaps the Minister might like to share his thoughts on the application of the guidelines with a view to a subsequent question and answer session with the members.

Deputy Roche

This is a topic for which I have a passion. I do not share the often expressed view that everyone in Ireland should live in a conurbation nor do I believe that everyone should live in a high-rise building, a view often implicit in criticisms of Irish settlement strategy. There is a very specific settlement pattern in Ireland and I believe that must be reflected in our planning process.

I am very grateful for the invitation to discuss sustainable rural housing guidelines for planning authorities. These guidelines were one of the first areas of planning reform I introduced on becoming Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. I believe they are balanced, fair and entirely appropriate for Ireland.

The last decade has witnessed a dramatic transformation in this country. We continue to experience strong economic growth, and our population is also surging ahead with the highest rate of population growth across the EU. Preliminary figures from the 2006 census indicate that the country's population has grown by over 8% in the four years since the last census to 4.235 million people. More importantly, every county recorded an increase in population. This is a marvellous reversal of a situation that has existed in this country for far too long and is something we should celebrate.

A growing population needs housing accommodation and the challenge for us all is to decide how and where to best cater for this increased demand. This is a basic issue. The Government recognises the strong and continuing tradition of Irish people living in rural areas and approximately one third of people live in the countryside. This is not a problem; I celebrate it as a challenge. It is vital therefore that the future viability of such rural communities be supported.

This does not mean, however, that we facilitate unrestricted building and development. That would be the antithesis of proper planning. Housing development in rural areas should complement, rather than dominate, its natural surroundings. It is for this reason that a balanced and sustainable approach must be adopted at both national and, more importantly, local level.

Draft guidelines for planning authorities on sustainable rural housing were published in March 2004 to give all interested parties an opportunity to comment before the guidelines were finalised in statutory form. My Department received 105 submissions on the draft guidelines from interested organisations and individuals, and many suggestions for clarifying or improving the guidance were incorporated in the finalised guidelines.

I published the finalised sustainable rural housing guidelines for planning authorities in April 2005. They endeavour to strike a balance between a good planning framework for rural housing and making it easier for those who are part of, or have links to, local rural communities to build a house. The guidelines thus represent a presumption in favour of quality, one-off housing for rural communities, provided proposals meet normal standards in matters such as the proper disposal of waste water, road safety and so on.

The guidelines consolidate the approach taken towards rural housing in the national spatial strategy, which aims to support rural communities and provide the framework within which rural communities can develop economically and socially. Planning authorities are required to review and vary their development plans, where necessary, to ensure that their policies on rural settlement are consistent with the policies set out in the guidelines. They are also a material consideration in determining planning applications. The committee will hear from the chairperson of An Bord Pleanála on that.

Specifically, the guidelines provide that people who are part of the rural community should be facilitated by the planning system in all rural areas, including those under strong urban-based pressures. They are part of the fabric of life here, so their rights must be recognised in the planning system. Anyone wishing to build a house in a rural area suffering persistent and substantial population decline will be accommodated. Obviously bringing new people to the area helps to maintain sustainability.

The development of the rural environment of major areas is dealt with by the guidelines including the gateways and hubs identified in the national spatial strategy, county towns and those with populations over 5,000 and needs to be carefully managed to ensure orderly development and successful functioning into the future. In a circular letter issued in May 2005, planning authorities and An Bord Pleanála were asked to put in place the required procedures and practices to implement the policies set out in the guidelines as quickly and effectively as possible. Significantly, all planning authorities were asked to take immediate steps to review their development plans to incorporate any necessary changes and ensure that development plan policies were consistent with the policies set out in the guidelines. This has been done, with some authorities varying their plans and others incorporating the guidelines directly into reviews of development plans.

My Department, in addition, held two seminars last year for local authority planning officials on the implementation of the guidelines. These dealt with the overall objectives of the guidelines and provided practical advice on the implementation of their core provisions, including: the preparation of development plan policies; the provision of better support and advice to applicants; and more efficient and comprehensive consideration of planning applications.

While respecting the need to consider each planning application individually and on its own merits, planning officials were advised of the need to ensure that the provisions of the guidelines are applied consistently and uniformly. I know this is one of the areas of concern to members of the committee. The Department also held discussions on the guidelines with the planning committee of the City and County Managers Association. These discussions focused on the need to give due regard to the guidelines in the consideration of planning applications. In addition, they were requested to strategically reflect the guidelines in their development plan policies and other crosscutting functions. I have visited virtually every county, as the Chairman knows. I try to meet senior planning officials and management and usually do in the course of my work. Again, because Members of the Oireachtas are worried about consistency, I tend to focus on the importance of this in the application of the guidelines.

The guidelines have a vital role in preventing the undesirable urbanisation of rural areas. They advocate development plan policies that distinguish between urban and rural generated housing. This should help to avoid ribbon and haphazard development. It is not in the script but the guidelines are also intended to inject an element of humanity into the planning system. One of the changes I introduced — and it was a novel reference — concerned people who were forced to emigrate in the past and who wanted to come and live out their remaining years in their own areas. Although there has been some criticism of this, I see nothing wrong with, and great merit in granting permission to somebody who had to leave Kerry, Cork, Wicklow or wherever, because of the economic situation at the time, and who is now prepared to come home and live out his or her final years in Ireland. It is only right that we should welcome back our emigrants. I have reflected this in the guidelines. I have also reflected the difficulties that present occasionally to families which have a disabled child or member, suggesting they should be given particular consideration. This comes out of my practical experience. I was walking a street with a councillor in Meath, who was not of my political persuasion, when I was approached by a young woman with two children with very challenging conditions, who could not get planning permission. I wrote not that specific case, but that consideration into the guidelines, because we are at nothing if there is not humanity in the planning system. Again, there was some criticism of that initiative and I cannot understand the logic that informs this.

The implementation of the guidelines is a priority for my Department. I am confident they will continue to help rural communities to develop and flourish to their full potential. Through them we can achieve a balance in the planning system that will facilitate local people who want to live in their own areas and help to revitalise rural communities in a sustainable manner.

I will now turn to the second issue, namely, the wind energy development guidelines. These were launched on 29 June last and are intended to ensure consistency of approach throughout the country in identifying suitable locations for wind energy developments and in determining planning applications for such initiatives. We can assist in delivering on some key Government priorities, for example, by helping to reduce harmful emissions, achieve our Kyoto targets and deliver a local, reliable and renewable energy source through wind. Wind energy has enormous potential on this island. There are planning issues, and the guidelines are aimed at addressing them.

Major advances have been made in the technology of wind energy production, as well as increased levels of economic activity, since the original guidelines were published in 1996. This extended and updated version takes account of those changes and provides much more user-friendly advice for planning authority staff than was previously the case. The guidelines highlight the need for a plan-led approach to wind energy applications. This helps ensure reasonable certainty for wind energy, for wind energy promoters and local communities. They include a step-by-step guide to the evaluation of suitable sites, including detailed illustrated examples of siting arrangements of wind energy developments.

For example, the new guidelines identify six main topographical landscapes for the siting of wind turbines and provide innovative illustrations and mock-ups to demonstrate practical examples of what is and what is not considered acceptable. Wind farms may help us to deliver our global environmental commitments. I believe they will, but we have to ensure they do not affect the local environment negatively. The guidelines, therefore, offer best practice advice on mitigating impacts on the built and natural heritage and help ensure that any problems are tackled up front in the planning process.

The core tenets of the Government's energy policy are the importance of having a secure and uninterrupted supply of electricity, underpinned by a diversity of fuel use in electricity generation. It also has regard to the guiding principles of the national climate change strategy, to promote sustainable development, ensure sectoral equity and protect economic development and competitiveness. Currently, Ireland has more than half of the renewable energy sources target connected to the national grid. More than 70% of this is generated from wind power. There is more than 3,000 MW of renewable generation in the grid connection application process, the vast bulk comprising wind energy generation, and that will undoubtedly grow.

We cannot ignore the fact that in the past the issue of wind energy development in certain areas has been a source of some controversy. We can well understand this and we must listen to people who have problems. These guidelines bring greater clarity to the role of the planning process in considering applications. They will help ease the genuine concerns of many local communities about the impact of new technologies on their lives. Ultimately consultation is the key. I am pleased that a notable aspect in the development of the guidelines has been the high level of public consultation.

These guidelines will greatly facilitate a speedier, more efficient planning system. They will also be very important in facilitating the production of sustainable energy and will benefit us all in that regard.

Chairman

A number of speakers are offering to contribute, for example Senator Bannon and Deputy McCormack. Could they please agree on who will be the official spokesman?

Senator Bannon

We each want to speak on specific issues.

Chairman

There will be time, anyway. I shall call on Senator Bannon and Deputy McCormack, although not necessarily in that order. Then we shall have Deputy Grealish, Deputy Healy-Rae and Senator Brennan. We shall give priority to the Dáil and call on Deputy McCormack.

Deputy McCormack

I thank the Minister for his clear-cut contribution. I accept 100% that the Minister is very much in favour of the sustainable rural housing guidelines being implemented by the local authorities. He gave the example of what had occurred while he was with a councillor in Meath. However, what the Minister wishes and desires for rural Ireland is not happening. What can he do to ensure the guidelines for sustainable rural planning are implemented? Since I lost the dual mandate I have not concerned myself much with planning issues in Galway County Council. However, I was involved in three cases this year which defied logic in every respect. Is there liaison between the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government and local authorities in granting or refusing planning permission? I am referring to three areas in Connemara that fit the picture painted by the Minister. Where Leenane national school used to have up to 36 pupils, it now has seven or eight. The same could be said for Roundstone and Rosmuc national schools. The population is decreasing at an alarming rate, with the result that services and even football teams are declining.

I refer to planning applications by numbers. Application No. 053419 was from a person running a wholesale nursery on 30 acres of land in Oranmore. It was from a young married woman, fully qualified in horticulture and running her father's business, living in a rented house in the Barna area. She could not get planning permission. She had to leave home every morning and cross the city to get to her place of work. The nature of her work in the nursery meant she had to go back to tend to it every night. She appealed — the appeal number was 216435 — and was granted planning permission, as I knew she would be. However, I was not able to convince the planners that she had a case.

The application number in the second case was 056565 but planning permission was refused by Galway County Council. A reapplication was made under number 061760 and I followed it up. Planning permission was refused by a planner on the grounds that the applicant's parents, listed in the Moycullen area, were not full-time farmers. There are only two full-time farmers in all of Connemara. The applicant's grandfather had been a full-time farmer on 30 acres of land in Moycullen, but his father cannot sustain full-time farming. This young man wanted to build on his parent's land. He plays football and hurling with Moycullen, has lived and worked in the parish all his life, yet he was refused planning permission until I made the case on his behalf. The director of services would not overrule the planner's decision. The planner who was born in the city did not have the first clue about what was involved in full or part-time farming. He did not have a clue about the way in which rural areas should be sustained. I have no doubt he was well qualified as a planner, but he was not qualified to deal with the way people live their lives in rural Ireland.

The application number in the final case I will refer to is 055123. It is from a young part-time farmer in the Roundstone area where the population is also declining. He is a qualified and highly skilled stone mason. He is the third generation of his family to farm in the area and has owned 30 acres of land for the last ten years. He could not get planning permission, yet in the same townland a person from Dublin who already had a holiday home in Connemara received permission to build a big house.

I cannot understand why the message the Minister has so genuinely given today is not transmitted to the planners who are making the decisions. They seemed to completely ignore the sustainable rural development guidelines in the three cases I have outlined. While many come to me to seek help with planning issues, I only follow up those that I believe are genuine cases where the person concerned should get planning permission. One would be as well banging one's head off a stone wall as trying to explain to planners that this is necessary to ensure sustainable rural development. It is important for people to live and rear their families in the areas concerned because that is where they work. I am not talking about someone who works in Galway city seeking planning permission to build on his or her father's land 15 or 20 miles away. I am talking about people who are involved with, living and working in, and contributing to the local community but who are unable to get planning permission to build on their parents' land under the sustainable rural development guidelines the Minister so courageously and strongly supports.

The Minister's address was more interesting when he diverted from his script. I could feel his desire to ensure the sustainable rural development guidelines would be implemented. He opened by saying such guidelines were entirely appropriate to Irish circumstances. However, while they are appropriate, they are not being implemented. If the Minister's officials want further information on the three cases mentioned, the only such cases I have been involved in during the last six months, I will supply them with it.

Deputy Roche

While I know the Deputy is only using these cases to illustrate his point, he will be aware that, as Minister, I cannot comment on individual planning cases. I will be candid with the committee. I was frustrated when some local authorities took rather longer than I expected to fully reflect the spirit as well as the letter of the guidelines. Some delayed implementation until they were making variations. Interestingly, An Bord Pleanála began operation of the scheme quickly. One can see this in early adjudications made by the board. I was delighted that it had moved so quickly.

I know Deputy McCormack long enough to know that he would not raise such cases unless he passionately believed in them. In his view, there are obviously no major planning impediments such as the provision of roads or sewerage schemes. He raised the issue of the distinction between full and part-time farmers. Both designations should be acceptable under the guidelines. We realise that farming has faced challenges and have actually encouraged people to seek off-farm income. There is nothing wrong with someone working part-time off a farm, as it helps sustain local communities.

In many cases there will be recourse to appeal. The occupational requirement in planning permission applications will easily deal with any concerns a planning authority may have that a person is improperly seeking planning permission; in other words, in circumstances where a person is using a local connection to get planning permission they should not otherwise receive. Our planning process has many checks and balances. Sometimes there is controversy about requirements that are added. However, if there are concerns, they can be dealt with.

I insisted that the Department hold seminars with planning officials. While material can be written down in a document, it can be difficult to put across the sense of the document. It was made clear to some officials that guidelines had statutory application. They are not desiderata and cannot be ignored or adhered to whenever one chooses. We met the planning committee of the City and County Managers Association and insisted that managers confirm that development plans had been reviewed to take account of the guidelines. It took until October to receive that confirmation from some local authorities, which was tardier than I would have wished. The committee will be able to establish in its discussions with the chairman of An Bord Pleanála that, to its great credit, it reflected not just the letter but the spirit of the guidelines.

Deputy McCormack

When the planning authority refused the first man, I advised him to make another application. The planning authority told me to tell this man to apply again as there was no cost involved in that. It cost the young chap working in a modest job in Moycullen €2,500 to apply again. It is ridiculous that the time could not be extended and that the authority could not see logic in the matter.

Deputy Roche

On that latter point, I take a dim view of the attitude that they can just apply again. The Deputy is right. It is extraordinarily stressful and it costs a good deal of money. I am not referring to the specific case, and the Deputy does not expect me to do that. One of the issues I have continually emphasised is that good manners should inform planning as well as a willingness to meet people, be courteous to them and understand that when they are on the far side of the planning counter, they are under some stress.

Some people have wrongly portrayed the guidelines as some sort of charter to destroy the countryside. The opposite is the case. They are intended to clarify what is good, sustainable development in the rural area. I have a passion, as the Deputy will be aware from talking to me——

Deputy McCormack

I am not suggesting it is the Minister but a great deal of frustration is being experienced in one of the cases I mentioned. The young chap has now emigrated, to the loss of his parents and the community, because he was frustrated at being unable to get planning permission.

Chairman

I want to bring in other speakers. I call Deputy Grealish.

Deputy Grealish

I welcome the Minister who I know is passionate about this subject. I have spoken to him about it on numerous occasions. I congratulate him on what he is trying to do to introduce some sense into the planning system.

In the sustainable rural guidelines the Minister states that an inurement clause should apply for seven years. In many planning applications granted throughout the country, especially in Galway, a lifetime inurement clause applies. It is very unfair that new planning applications are subject to an inurement clause applying for seven years when for people under the old system, a lifetime clause applied. Will the Minister examine that issue?

As my colleague, Deputy McCormack, said, when a young couple marry, the biggest decision they have to make is to build a house. Many problems arise with planning permissions in rural areas. In some cases, three or four planning applications must be made. While I compliment An Bord Pleanála on implementing the planning guidelines the Minister's Department has issued, in one case the local authority refused planning permission for a young couple in the Furbo area. They appealed the decision to An Bord Pleanála and the board granted permission under the sustainable rural housing guidelines. I welcome the fact that An Bord Pleanála is implementing those guidelines.

When a young couple apply for planning permission and it is refused by the planners, the planners are not accountable to anybody. They can simply make the decision to refuse planning permission. If the applicants talk to the planner about the decision, he or she will be told to appeal to An Bord Pleanála, which is a superior authority, and that it should make the decision. That young couple then must make a decision to appeal the planner's decision to An Bord Pleanála and if An Bord Pleanála refuses planning permission, the county council cannot overrule its decision. In other words, a black dot is put on that site, so to speak, which is difficult for the young couple.

My party considered a proposal to set up a rural appeals office which would be staffed by an architect, a planner, an environmental person, a representative from a rural organisation like the IFA or ICMSA, and a representative from the legal profession. That local appeals office would be specifically for once-off rural housing and would have the authority to summon a planner to come before it to outline the reason he or she refused a particular planning application. If such an office were established, many planners would change the way they make their decisions.

County councils adopt development plans. I have been a member of a county council but it is the interpretation of the plan by the planners that causes a major problem, not just in my constituency but in many others. We often spend a long time trying to adopt a plan we believe is right for the local community but it is then up to the planners to interpret that. Will the Minister comment on that aspect?

I welcome the Minister's statement about the areas that have been depopulated, including many areas in my constituency. There should be very few restrictions to try to attract people to live in those areas.

Another major issue, and I am unsure how it can be addressed, is meeting planners. A young couple or an individual applying for planning permission must first have a pre-planning meeting with the planner, but they could wait two or three months to get an appointment to meet the planner. When the meeting takes place, they must then make the application, following which the planner will not meet the individuals again. They might get a phone call the day before the decision on the application is due indicating there is a problem with it. They give a reason for the problem but if the people in question want to meet the planner again, the planner will not meet them because of time constraints. It is difficult, therefore, for the people making the application to try to address the issues raised by the planner and, as my colleague, Deputy McCormack, said, they are told to withdraw it and make a new application at huge expense to the individual concerned.

I again congratulate the Minister on what he has done for rural planning. I am aware he has spent a great deal of time on this issue and is passionate about it. He came to Galway and met many planners. I hope something will come out of that and that a system will be put in place which will be fair to everybody. I realise every planning application cannot be granted but we must have some mechanism in place that is fair to the people applying for planning permission to build on their own family lands or in an area in which they grew up, went to school or live currently. I compliment the Minister on what he is trying to do.

Deputy Roche

I compliment the Deputy. I read Planning for a Rural Future. Much good work went into that document and I recognised the Deputy's hand in it, so to speak. I should not recommend a political party document to the committee but there are some fascinating statistics in it about settlement patterns in Ireland over the years. As recently as 1971, over 40% of people lived in one-off housing scattered across the rural countryside, which is astonishing and feeds into the point Deputy McCormack made. We have a rural pattern which is specific and almost sui generis to Ireland. It is not the same in other parts of Europe. When the EEA, therefore, suggests it is concerned about rural housing in Ireland, it is not comparing like with like. We do not have the settlement pattern that exists in Europe. We have to go back to the 19th century, the Congested Districts Board and various issues specifically relating to settlement patterns for that. I do not want to comment in detail on a fine policy document on which I know the Deputy worked hard.

An Bord Pleanála has expertise and broad representation in its make-up. The committee will be surprised to hear that I recently called for nominations for An Bord Pleanála and some of the larger nominating bodies did not find time to put forward any names. It is a little odd that that should be the case. I have already said I am minded to allow rural representational bodies have a nomination right in that regard.

We have a constraint in terms of the numbers of good planners available to us. Applications for hundreds of thousands of buildings are being processed and there is a real constraint in that regard. One must have sympathy for young people who have come straight from college and into the planning process. There is an issue in that regard.

On the point about depopulated areas, strongly made by Deputy McCormack, depopulated areas are specifically mentioned in the guidelines. This is not to allow one to scatter houses all over the countryside but there is a recognition that there should be a more liberal approach. In CLÁR areas one must deal with wastewater and road issues, which are challenges. I refer to the point made by Deputy McCormack. Having a stonemason and his children living in an area in which he grew up, where he is part of the fabric of rural life, enriches everybody and is a win-win situation. We have made specific reference to populated areas. Planners must be sensitive to the impact on landscape. Nobody wishes to destroy our beautiful country but there is a need for a balanced approach.

A Deputy and a Senator made the point that planners are not accountable. They are, which is where directors of services and county managers have responsibility. The county manager is the chief planner in the area.

Deputy McCormack

They delegate work to the director of services.

Deputy Roche

That is an interesting point. Recently, I attended a function in Cork and met a very wise man who had been a county or city manager. When he held the position he tried to supervise every area under him. He pointed out that in any organisation where one depends on human judgment, experience, training and background lead to a variety of judgments. This is not the fault of young planners, many of whom come from urban backgrounds and most of whom have been trained in planning, which tends to focus on town planning.

There is a responsibility on managers to cast their eye across the planning process. Managers should not surrender to every political representation but if complaints have been made about planning inconsistencies these should be dealt with at managerial level in councils. People will state that they do not have time to examine everything but a Minister is expected to be aware of everything in his or her portfolio. Where arguments are made by experienced public representatives, it is not unreasonable that council management should take the time and effort to examine the matter. They can then give guidance to staff, and not bully or browbeat them. This is needed when the staff members are young and in their formative period. When guidance is given, young planners learn well.

Deputy Grealish

Can the Minister address the matter of inurement clauses? Planning permission is often granted with the lifetime inurement clause and nothing in legislation permits this to be changed. County managers or directors of services cannot change that. Is it lawful for them to do so?

Deputy Roche

Sorry Senator——

Deputy Grealish

It is "Deputy". After the next election I might be a Senator or I might not be here at all.

Deputy McCormack

The Deputy's seat is under threat.

Deputy Roche

He is under threat and we must rally to support him.

The Deputy made a point about the inurement clause. Seven years is a reasonable period but anything more than that would be excessive. An Bord Pleanála has examined this issue. I am not in favour of removing it. An occupancy clause is reasonable.

Regarding planning permission that was historically granted with lifetime clauses, I have seen some excessive sterilisation of land. As it is an issue related to property and planning, the best approach is to seek a variation on any clause in planning permission. I will write a formal letter to the committee Chairman, which he can circulate to members.

Deputy Healy-Rae

If we could encourage county managers and directors of services to implement the Minister's guidelines everything would be fine. A county manager laughed at me when I mentioned the Minister's guidelines. He stated that the guidelines are merely a suggestion from the Minister and not part of the county development plan, which was adopted without the guidelines. Can the Minister compel county managers to implement the guidelines and can he change the county development plan to include the guidelines? In that case, the managers would heed the Minister's intentions.

Deputy McCormack provided the committee with an excellent explanation of what is happening in Galway. The same is happening in Kerry and north Cork, as Deputy Moynihan will be aware. Managers are not implementing the Minister's guidelines. The Minister will make history if he compels managers to include the guidelines in the county development plan. This would influence An Bord Pleanála.

In a circular issued in May 2005 to planning authorities and An Bord Pleanála, it was requested that the required procedures and practices be set up to implement the guidelines. The request was ignored. In one case, in Meath, the guidelines were taken on board but broadly speaking they were not taken seriously.

I appeal to the Minister about the seven-year occupancy clause. Let us consider the example of a young man working in Cadbury's factory in Rathmore, who is put on notice that his employment will be terminated in a few weeks. He has no job to take up in Rathmore after leaving that job. Although he has a new house, with a seven-year occupancy clause, he might have to work in Killorglin or Tralee. If he does, he cannot sell his house in Rathmore. With factories and hotels closing and people losing jobs, there are hundreds of people in this situation. Hundreds of people, including some working in the Great Southern Hotel, Parknasilla, had occupancy clauses attached to their houses. They are in a difficult situation and I recommend the Minister changes it if possible. This clause is hurting people. They may own a house in Rathmore or Killarney and wish to go to Tralee, Killorglin, Cahirciveen or Cork to get a job but cannot do so because they cannot leave their house. The Minister's intentions are 100% and I hope he can get them implemented. I am delighted with every word he uttered today and I compliment him on his knowledge of the planning problems. However, the trouble is that his guidelines are not being implemented. I appeal to staff in the Department to put their heads together to see if the guidelines can be implemented. I apologise to the Chairman for speaking at length about the subject.

Deputy Roche

The Deputy has made a fair point. It has been acknowledged that there have been inconsistencies in the application and implementation by individual local authorities. I have made it very clear to managers that I do not find this acceptable. I do not like the word "guidelines". Deputy Cregan spoke to me about a case where a planner told him that these were only guidelines. They are not merely guidelines; they are issued under section 28 of the Act and they must be implemented. They are not discretionary. Local authorities do not have the right to pick and choose which of the guidelines to implement. When guidelines are issued, they must be implemented.

There have been inconsistencies. Deputy Healy-Rae mentioned An Bord Pleanála because he is discussing the matter with it. In its annual report, the board noted inconsistencies, which is very welcome because it recognises that the guidelines, as issued under section 28 of the Act, have universal application. Obviously, local authorities cannot pick and choose which of the guidelines to implement.

I have already mentioned that we had several meetings with the City and County Managers Association, CCMA. Another meeting of the planning subcommittee of the CCMA was organised before this meeting. I will ensure that the transcript of today's meeting is given to the county managers. I do not know if members have met the CCMA planners but I will ensure their views are passed on because I have already drawn local authorities' attention to the fact that these guidelines are not something they can pick and choose. My Department will raise the matters and concerns expressed by members with local authorities and I will ensure they receive a transcript of this meeting.

I am aware of the incredible frustration because I have witnessed it. There appears to be inconsistency between one field and another. I expect county managers and the directors of planning services to ensure there is consistency across their own counties. It is not too much to expect. Lest I be perceived as continuously criticising county managers, I have first-hand experience of county managers taking this on board and I would expect this to be universal.

Chairman

The list of speakers includes Senators Bannon and Brennan and Deputy O'Dowd. I call on Senator Bannon to speak.

Senator Bannon

I welcome the Minister's statement but we have heard it all before. The actions in the different local authorities throughout the country do not match the Minister's words. The clerk of the committee wrote to the various managers throughout the country and received responses. Some managers gave fairly comprehensive responses, while others gave responses consisting of one page or one-half of a page outlining that they were implementing the guidelines.

As Deputy Healy-Rae noted, many managers are hiding behind county development plans. They are claiming these plans were adopted and are in place and that when they are reviewed, they will be in a position to implement some of the guidelines. This is what individuals and local authority members are being told time and again.

How many elected members of local authorities saw the response of their relevant county manager to the letter from the clerk of the committee? Was it put before the councils? Some of the responses are pathetic. They were simplified responses to the query which did not give any comprehensive response. It was simply an exercise in scribbling a letter and sending it to the clerk of the committee. Some of the letters I read were quite objectionable and did not state the wishes of the elected members of the local authority in question. They came from the officials rather than the elected members. In future, letters of this type should be ratified or adopted by the relevant local authority before they are forwarded since the elected members are the foot soldiers in our democracy. In respect of any letters we receive on this issue in the future, we should get the opinions of the elected members as well as those of the managers.

There have been three or four interesting planning permission refusals in Longford-Westmeath. One young man has been trying for three years to get planning permission for a house on his father's 120-acre farm. Every time he attended a pre-planning meeting, he brought three different planning applications. He was led to believe that he would be facilitated. The family has owned the farm since the 17th century and another house has not been built on the site since then. The young man wishes to build a house and rear his family beside his elderly parents. He has been forced for the past two years to rent accommodation in Mullingar, which is unacceptable to the family. When one is working on a dairy farm one needs to live there. Each local authority should send out a standard form relating to the pre-planning meeting. The planner one meets in a pre-planning meeting should be allowed to deal with that application. What happens at the moment is that a particular planner is not briefed about what took place at a pre-planning meeting. This has been a major obstacle to this individual's planning application. For the past three years, he has been told that he will be able to build the house. However, three different planners have dealt with his application, which was refused. This is shameful and should not happen. If he was given the details of the case, the Minister would view it in the same manner as I do.

I will now deal with a planning application for a dwelling house in a rural area which was also refused. The letter of refusal stated that the proposed development is located within the broad zone of the Royal Canal, as identified in map five band of the county development plan. It then stated Waterways Ireland would not be happy with building a house at that location. The letter of refusal was sent on 1 August. My constituent and I contacted Waterways Ireland which stated that it had not lodged an objection to the proposed development. In its response dated Thursday, 17 August 2006, Waterways Ireland clarified its position and confirmed that it did not make any submission or lodge any objection to the application for planning permission. It also voiced its surprise at the context of the refusal, the details of which I had furnished, particularly in respect of matters relating to the vicinity of the canal.

Another planning application was refused because it was considered that the proposed development would result in an extensive density of development in a rural area without services and result in pressure for services which would be uneconomical to provide and, as such, would be contrary to proper planning and sustainable development in the area.

Regarding the rural planning guidelines, one local authority in its response said that the guidelines state that the planning authority should aim to support three over-arching policy objectives. One of those is the need to ensure that development is guided to the right locations but there is no elaboration on that in the guidelines. That issue must be addressed because that clause is used regularly by the planners and it is unfair.

Some system of appeals should be in place when a planning application is refused. The Minister should consider the issue of an appeal within a region and give more powers to the regional authorities. A structure could be set up within a regional authority to allow for appeal of planning decisions rather than appealing to An Bord Pleanála because people living in rural areas believe An Bord Pleanála is far removed in its offices in Dublin and elsewhere. I would welcome the Minister's views on appeals being heard on a regional basis.

This is a major issue in rural Ireland. Three years ago, when the Taoiseach and members of the Minister's party met in Sligo, they promised radical changes but those changes have not happened. A newspaper article last week referred to a planning application being refused because the site notice was not the right colour. In another case, because the applicant did not produce nine photographs of a historical building the application was thrown out. In another case that came to my notice, an application form was provided by a local authority, the person filled up the form but because the form was out of date the application was refused. Those are senseless reasons for rejecting an application and they must be addressed urgently. We cannot allow the scandal of rural planning to continue because it is destroying families in rural Ireland and it must be addressed. The Minister knows that. There was a lot of huffing and puffing on this issue in the run-up to the last local elections but no action was taken. I hope we do not have any more huffing and puffing on the issue in the run-up to the general election. Questions about rural planning must be addressed urgently.

Deputy Roche

I would not dream of huffing and puffing and I would never suggest that any member of the committee is huffing and puffing.

Deputy McCormack

If there is enough huffing and puffing they might blow the house down.

Deputy Roche

Exactly, if they managed to get planning permission to build the house in the first place.

There is an appeals process in place. I mentioned that it has been accepted by Deputies and Senators from across the spectrum that An Bord Pleanála has been well informed and has done a good job of taking the guidelines on board. If there is inconsistency it is happening at some local authority levels. The responsibility lies with the manager and the directors of planning — among whom there are some young and inexperienced planners who are new to the job and straight out of training — to ensure there is consistency in the process, especially given the volumes of work they must handle.

On the issue raised about pre-planning meetings, there are many specific references to the need for courtesy and efficiency to inform pre-planning. Planners should follow through on cases where that is possible but sometimes it is not possible. Where it is not possible for the planner to follow through on the actual case, the pre-planning meeting should be recorded. That is good administrative practice. We should not have to tell local authorities what is good administrative practice. The Deputy is raising an area I have addressed in separate guidelines on the management of planning processes. There is a document called the Yellow Book, which dealt with management procedures. That went back for consultation to give people the opportunity to update it, and that updating has happened.

Where a pre-planning meeting takes place, it should be recorded and any undertaking honoured. Deputy O'Dowd would probably be aware of a major issue in his area. A serious case in Deputy O'Dowd's area and an adjoining area has been brought to my attention where pre-planning meetings took place. People were advised to do very expensive studies. Following that process the planning officer had changed and those people were told, "That was then, this is now". That is not good enough. If a citizen has forked out €100,000-----

Deputy McCormack

It is happening everywhere.

Deputy Roche

That is simply not acceptable.

On the regional appeals issue, I would not be disposed to going in that direction because there is a shortage of good planning personnel with a great deal of experience. There are many pressure points. I understand the Deputy's point about regionalisation and someone to whom people can talk but to be fair to An Bord Pleanála, there has been a sea change in the attitude. I have enormous confidence in the chairman of An Bord Pleanála because he has informed the whole operation on the board with a great deal of common sense. I am not saying that was not the case previously but he has brought a great deal of experience to it. I have got a lot of feedback from people who have been pleasantly surprised at the way the were listened to. That is what should happen elsewhere.

On the point the Senator made about development plans, Deputy Healy-Rae made the point that the development plans are behind and they have not accommodated the guidelines. That is not an excuse. The guidelines are part of law. They are made under section 28 of the Act and if that is still being used as an excuse by any council, it is wrong. It is a matter for the local councillors. They can move a direction that a variation to the development plan be made to accommodate the guidelines. Where members know that is happening they should use their good offices with the councillors to suggest they take command of the situation. That is what they should do because the people who decide planning policy are not the officials of the council but the councillors. This is one of the most important tasks given to councillors and they can and should exercise their authority in that regard. I am on record as encouraging members of at least one council to do precisely that. To answer the Senator, I strongly suggest he copy his comments to the particular councillors and advise them of that. I think he will find cross-party support.

These guidelines did not just fall out of the air. They were in gestation for four years before they were made. A great deal of consultation was involved. County councils and county managers throughout the country are aware of the problems in their areas. They know the guidelines apply and they are aware of my expectation. If some councils have put forward a fatuous excuse that their development plans have not caught up with the guidelines, they should catch up and the way to do that is by way of a resolution to bring on board the guidelines. That would be a worthwhile demonstration of the democratic input into our planning process.

Senator Bannon

In some cases the planners, in refusing an application, quote sections from county development plans that were adopted in 2002 or 2003. On every refusal point they quote the relevant section but those sections are out of date. I agree that should not happen.

Senator Brennan

I, too, welcome the Minister and congratulate him on the guidelines. I thank him for inviting submissions on a national basis and giving this committee an opportunity to discuss the matter today. I have no problem with the guidelines. It is not the way they are being implemented, or not implemented in some cases, that is causing the problem. I share the view of everyone around the table. I ask the Minister to give serious consideration to the establishment on a statutory basis of a national planning monitoring committee. If such a committee were put in place, it would address the problem identified here today. It could advise the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government on matters relating to planning policy.

Such a committee could also be of assistance to elected representatives on a national basis in the preparation of planning policy and development plans. This is an important aspect. Some councillors spend €500 of their own money to obtain advice on the implementation of planning policies, but that should not be necessary. Such a monitoring committee could regulate the implementation of Government policy and guidelines on rural housing. It could monitor the planning appeals system for one off rural housing. These are concerns in regard to planning. The Minister mentioned that expertise in planning is scarce. If such a committee was set up on a national basis, it would be of benefit not only to the Minister but to local authority members and the members of the public. Where all the submissions have been made in respect of a development, such a committee would present an ideal opportunity for their consideration, although I share the Minister's concern regarding how the guidelines on a statutory basis are being implemented. Such a committee could act as a liaison mechanism between the Minister, the local authorities and the general public. I ask him to consider this proposal.

Deputy Roche

Monitoring of the implementation of planning guidelines takes place at two levels. There is a monitoring process in the Department and we receive complaints about planning. Debates such as this are helpful. One can draft a set of guidelines that are as detailed as possible but unless people have a will to implement them we will not be successful in implementing them.

To return to the point made by Senator Bannon, the power in this respect lies within the local councils. Members are aware of my views on councillors, namely they have limited enough powers. To use the phrase used by Senator Bannon, councillors are the foot soldiers of democracy and they can implement these guidelines at local authority level. If there is a sense of there being an obdurate disregard for the planning guidelines in a council, councillors can move to address that.

The Department monitors councils. That is the reason many cases have come to light. We note comments in the local press, which is effective in reporting the frustrations of councillors regarding planning issues. We pick up on that and push forward to address these issues.

A differentiated approach is needed in different areas. The guidelines specifically refer to different rural types. To return to the point made by Deputies Grealish and McCormack on depopulated areas, namely, areas from which there has been a major flight from the land, schools, shops and the local post office are under threat. Councils should identify those areas as ones to which people are channelled, particularly small hamlets. In that way such areas can be built up and repopulated. On the other hand, some areas are under strong urban pressure. This is commonplace in the areas surrounding Dublin. Some people have sold their property in the city and used the profit realised to move to live in the countryside. Such relocation has other effects.

There are also strong rural areas, which are capable of handling more growth, and there are clustered settlements. Local authorities should adopt a common sense approach and divide their planning areas into these different segments. If they did that, it would enable them to deal in a much more proactive way with the planning process.

I intend to circulate the report of the proceedings of this meeting to all county managers, as they will be helpful to them. It might persuade them that my view on this is not a case of my ranting but rather that there is a general democratic view in this respect, which they cannot ignore. I am grateful to Senator Brennan for his contribution.

Deputy O’Dowd

The Minister is ranting a good deal today.

Deputy Roche

No, I am not.

Deputy O’Dowd

I missed the Minister's earlier remarks. The question of key workers has arisen in my constituency on the east coast where there is considerable growth. Many key workers, such as a medical doctor or specialist attached to a hospital, want to live in rural areas. Such a key worker can buy a site, for which planning permission would be granted, but because he or she does not meet the county council domicile requirement, he or she is prohibited from buying and building on such a site, notwithstanding that it would be adjacent to the hospital in which he or she works. I accept it is the elected members, the councillors, who decide on the plans and not the managers. The councillors set down the guidelines. Given they do that, they should make provision in them to enable many of these good cases to get through. If there are rows over what planners say, in many instances they rely on the policy decided by the council. We need to examine these issues.

Provision in planning for key workers such as a nurse or a doctor in a hospital is a specific problem on the east coast, which might be addressed. It may be an issue for individual councils to address. I ask the Minister to request the Department to give its view on this issue. Key workers in industry and other sectors need to be defined. They ought to be able to purchase sites in the areas in which they work. In other words, they should not be required to meet a domicile requirement of their family having resided in the area dating back to, say, their grandfather's time. As they are key workers and essential to the efficient operation of an industry or hospital — the latter being a case that was brought to my attention — such provision should be made for them.

On the issue of wind farms, which is of import to the Minister, An Bord Pleanála recently refused an application for a wind farm project. I agree with the policy objectives of the Government in this regard. Fine Gael fully supports wind energy. However, an increasing number of communities have objected to the development of wind farms. I recently received a glossy brochure from a national body which has been set up to oppose wind farms. We need to examine this issue more carefully, particularly in view of the An Bord Pleanála decision. I ask the Minister to review that decision. I know representatives from An Bord Pleanála are due to appear before the committee later and we will have to ask them about that. I agree that wind farms ought be located whenever it is possible to site them. I am concerned that many communities are up in arms over their development. I cannot understand their arguments, but they are getting increasingly organised on this issue. I ask the Minister to comment on that.

Deputy Roche

The Deputy has made a good point. I was amazed recently when I was contacted by a person who told me that the objective of a group — I am not sure if it was the group to which the Deputy referred but possibly it was — was simply to oppose the setting up of wind farms in all locations.

Deputy O’Dowd

Yes, it is crazy.

Deputy Roche

It struck me as irresponsible. I can understand an objection in the case of a local issue, and I should not refer to this, but there was such an issue relating to Cashel. Sensitivity is required in regard to the location of a wind farm. However, to simply take the view that all wind farm projects will be opposed in all locations, and likewise in the case of marinas, seems to be a move in the wrong direction. Much consultation has taken place on the wind farm projects, which is necessary because of their nature. There was considerable contact with local authorities and their managers throughout last year before we finalised the guidelines. Local authority managers were asked to confirm they had taken on board the issues involved.

There are a number of issues related to wind farms that we are trying to address in a generic way. One of the elements that is different in the guidelines in regard to wind farms is that we have tried to identify landscapes that can accommodate wind farming. We have also tried to deal with some of the more specific issues that arise, such as flutter, noise and proximity to houses. We have also suggested in the granting of permission how the impact of wind farms on landscapes can be ameliorated. I share Deputy O'Dowd's concern that people would take a blanket view of opposing all wind farm projects, irrespective of their location. We have a responsibility to ourselves as a nation to secure our energy sources. One of the best renewable energy sources we have is wind. It is a very sustainable and clean energy source. People need to think twice about objecting totally to such projects.

Deputy O'Dowd and I discussed this issue in the Dáil in the context of the Planning and Development (Strategic Infrastructure) Bill, particularly with regard to the larger wind turbine operations, namely, 500 turbines with 100 MW. I do not wish to comment on individual cases before An Bord Pleanála.

Deputy O’Dowd

I accept that but the issue was the principle that was enunciated in terms of a flat landscape. I will be asking the representatives about this later.

Deputy Roche

Obviously, the guidelines on landscapes are very new and we will have to keep the matter under review. I would welcome any comments the Deputy has on the issue. I am happy they are balanced as I would not have signed them otherwise. I am as concerned as the Deputy about this global approach of rejecting wind farming. I understand that a local community would have a view about a particular landscape and one must be ready to listen to that and factor it into planning decisions. However, one cannot simply say that the wind farms cannot go anywhere. That actually damages the cause of people who have a specific case to make.

Deputy Cregan

What is killing the planning system is inconsistency. The Minister referred to inconsistency throughout the country. I do not have a big problem with that because all politics are local. However, there is a serious problem when there is inconsistency within a locality. Much of that arises from the huge turnover in planners in recent years. While we might complain about planners, I believe they have been badly treated by councils and badly paid. They are up against serious deadlines and in many cases it was far more attractive to leave the local authority for the private sector where there are better pay and conditions. That has put a cost on the planning service. In many instances planners work above and beyond the call of duty, at all hours of the day and night, but they are not paid for it because they are not paid overtime. We should acknowledge that point.

Reference was made to pre-planning meetings and the Minister suggested that they should be recorded. They are recorded in our local authority and a copy of the record is given to the applicant while a copy is kept by the planner. That is only right because it prevents misunderstandings subsequently. Previously, we had a problem with inconsistencies. There are a few difficulties with every planning application. I am not a member of a local authority but 75% of my work is dealing with planning applications. A huge amount of our time is spent trying to help applicants succeed with their applications.

Some of the applications submitted leave much to be desired. In many instances letters must be sent out for further information or clarifications. That is not the fault of the planner or the applicant. We must accept this and advise applicants to deal with reputable agents who will make good and sound applications. Percolation, for example, can cause serious problems with applications. For many years we allowed houses to be built on lands where the percolation was not good. We allowed situations to develop where not only were people polluting their own ground water, but they might also have been polluting other wells in the area. We have become more conscious of the need to protect ground water. I do not have a difficulty with a stringent percolation test because it is in the best interests of the applicant to have a percolation and treatment system that works. Otherwise, they will face difficulties in the future.

In Limerick, the local HSE formerly carried out the percolation test for the applicant. Now, however, a panel of independent site assessors has been put in place and the applicant can choose from that list to have a percolation test carried out. The person carrying out the test has the knowledge and qualifications to determine a solution to any problem so the applicant can secure planning permission.

The issue of design is a matter of opinion. A planner is entitled to give his or her opinion on what type of house a person should have. However, people are investing a great deal of money over their lifetimes in their family home and while one cannot build the Taj Mahal next door to an ordinary house, people should be allowed, within reason, to build to their own design. In Limerick, one cannot put a bay window in one's house. That is silly. In many cases, people install a bay window to create a little extra space in the house. I cannot understand why bay windows are not permitted.

Each local authority should have a book of design guidelines. The applicant can examine it at pre-planning stage, select a design to their liking and know that when they apply for permission, they can get it for that design. That is most important. This system applies in some counties and I am told that Limerick is moving towards putting such a system in place. It would at least give the applicant a guideline prior to making their application.

Sometimes a planning authority will refuse permission because the applicant intends to build on a sub-standard road. Why is the road sub-standard? Local authorities have never had more funding for roads. If they refuse permission to the applicant because the road is sub-standard, that is not the applicant's fault. The applicant's land happens to be on that sub-standard road but there should not be an onus on the applicant to improve the road. The local authority should do it.

There is another problem relating to roads. Let us say a person intends to build on a by-road off the main road. Adequate sight lines can be provided on the by-road because there is full site distance on either side. However, it could be determined that there is a difficulty with sight lines at the existing junction between the by-road and the main road. That junction has been there for hundreds of years and houses have been built along the road. The lands at the junction are not in the ownership of the applicant. It is desperately unfair to expect the applicant to go to the relevant landowner and ask him to improve the junction so he or she can get planning permission.

What should happen in such cases is that the landowner could make the land available to have the junction improved. However, there should not be that onus on the applicant hoping to build 100 or 200 yards down the road. Permission has been granted down the years for housing but suddenly there is a problem with sight lines at the junction. I accept that we must be conscious of the importance of road safety but in cases where there is no other option for somebody who is attempting to build on their family land, we should not put that impediment before them. This issue should be examined.

Reference has been made to depopulated rural areas. In County Limerick, there are different colours on the planning map to indicate what can be built in different areas. A red area on the map would refer to a depopulated area. It is easy to get planning permission for that area; the county council will encourage people to do that. It is not easy to get planning permission in the green area.

The CLÁR programme has been extended to County Limerick and 50 DEDs are included in it. I am glad the council recently took the sensible decision to ensure that the DEDs included in CLÁR become red areas in the map. This will be helpful for people from those areas who wish to build houses or for a builder who might be interested in building some one-off houses, which he could not do in the green area. Where the Government decides to include certain areas in CLÁR with the object of repopulating and rejuvenating the area, the local authority should not refuse permission to build a house in the area. At least that balance has now been achieved, which is a positive step.

Deputy Roche

I thank the Deputy for his balanced contribution. He is correct that planners work long hours and put in more hours than they get paid for. That should not be ignored. Young planners are under significant pressures.

The Deputy made another point about poor quality applications that are submitted. There are chancers, calling themselves architects and planners, who write something on the back of an envelope and stick it in to the council. I know of one character who sticks in the most bizarre planning applications and then tells people to ring their local councillors and Deputies. The council refuses an inordinate amount of this character's planning applications. He then makes the argument that he is being discriminated against but he is not; he is simply inept.

In other legislation I have been protecting titles such as "architect" because people with no such training have been using them. The Deputy referred to his council in Limerick. The idea that one can have a group of experts who can do the percolation test is a good one. That is happening in a few areas throughout the country and it is a good practice, which I would certainly endorse.

As regards the issue of design, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, as the Deputy has said. What might look to me or others like an outlandish Taj Mahal — or Dallas on steroids in at least one case — may be attractive to someone else. Design standards should be protected, however. There is a specific reference in the guidelines to encouraging councils to get away from this monotonous homogeneity whereby a building must be a rectangular box with certain coloured roof slates. A bit of variety is good and we refer in particular to local, traditional heritage architecture.

When I was a councillor in County Wicklow there was a fatwa against dormer windows in roofs, which was a bizarre prohibition. Interestingly, someone pointed out that a high proportion of traditional architecture in the county comprised houses that had been built by estates many years ago and which had windows in their roofs. It is quite an attractive feature in villages like Enniskerry, for example. Somebody had brought a planning preconception to bear, thus illustrating that one cannot have a preconception. The guidelines say that local authorities should not be overly rigorous on the issue and that good quality design, whether contemporary or traditional, should be recognised.

It should be recalled that there are more than 100,000 km of roads in Ireland. On a per capita basis we have far more roads than the norm in the rest of Europe, which poses a problem. The Deputy’s point about the junction was a good one. I have come across such cases where people have a perfect site but the junction is on land that is not owned by them but may well be owned by a neighbour who is not particularly well disposed towards their interests. They are therefore in an unenviable situation. If a junction has bad sight lines it is a matter for the council to examine.

Deputy McCormack

I compliment Deputy Cregan on his balanced view. Perhaps it is because there is such a commonsense approach in Limerick. We should have that commonsense approach whereby the pre-planning meeting record is given to the applicant and the planner dealing with it, so it must be passed on to the new planner. It is the most frustrating aspect of dealing with planning. One has a pre-planning meeting with a planner but when he is contacted two, three or four weeks before the planning meeting is due, he says he is not dealing with that file because it has been passed to someone else. When the new planner is contacted, he does not have a clue about the file. It is one of the most frustrating aspects of the planning process.

When I was finally making up my mind to leave public life, it was partly owing to my frustration with planning. It was the straw that broke the camel's back in my case. I am fit to be a Deputy and have no fear of losing my seat. I have good health and everything else is going for me. One of the deciding factors to leave politics in the end, however, was my frustration with the planning process. When I ring the planning office I get an answering machine and my calls are not returned. I ring a planner who says he is not dealing with that file, which has been passed to somebody else. If we had the commonsense approach that appears to be taken in Limerick, I might still run for the next Dáil. That is neither here nor there now but my frustration with that was one of the deciding factors in the end. I asked myself why I should live with the frustration of dealing with planning matters.

As the Minister is asking for the transcript of this meeting to be circulated to county managers, I must put on record my disappointment, annoyance and shame that Galway County Council and Galway City Council are among the few local authorities that did not even reply with any observations to the clerk's letter of 24 July. That is part of my frustration because it is what I am dealing with in the county. They have not even replied to this committee's letter, never mind replying to me as a local representative. I am ashamed and disappointed to have to acknowledge that both local authorities, of which I was a member for many years, did not see fit to reply to that letter seeking their observations on the planning process. Some 26 councils replied to it but my own two councils are among the few that treated this committee with contempt by not furnishing a reply to the letter of 24 July. I wish to put on record my disappointment and shame about that.

Deputy Roche

Deputy Cregan's point about providing a copy of the document is a commonsense approach. It would be good administrative practice because transparency should inform all aspects of planning. There is sometimes a bureaucratic concern that if one does so, one leaves oneself open in future, but so be it. If one has made a well-founded decision, honestly reaching some determination, there should be no fear of giving people copies of documents. In any event, the document should be written on the file.

I have been impressed by good practice in a number of councils. For example, in Sligo, all applications are checked at the counter. There is a good quality checklist as to whether everything has been done properly. People know when they come in that there is a deficiency so they can be told to come back with x, y or z. If good administrative practice is applied, it is as helpful to councils as it is to applicants.

The issue of consistency applies here, given that in many cases one is dealing with young planners with only a few years of experience and huge pressures upon them. Planners are thrown in at the deep end. At a human level, planners, young or old, who are new to a particular planning case, need the overarching guidance that should come with managerial oversight. The managers should insist on consistency. That was the point I made earlier.

Deputy O'Dowd made a point about key workers. The guidelines refer to full or part-time workers in rural areas. There is a danger in extending the key worker principle too far, although I see the Deputy's point. Somebody may be working in a hospital and they may want to live out the road.

Deputy O’Dowd

My point concerned a consultant.

Deputy Roche

There is a reference in the guidelines to workers, including teachers and others who have intrinsic links to the rural area. I would not be disposed to widening it further than that.

Deputy O’Dowd

Normally that would be fine but my point concerned areas of massive population growth. Drogheda, for instance, is going to increase by 20,000 over the next ten years or so. A site is for sale in a rural part of the county and has planning permission if one qualifies to buy it. This person does not qualify, however, because he or she has just come into the community and does not have a link, as such. The person does, however, have a large stake.

Deputy Roche

I know the point the Deputy is making but it is a double-edged sword.

Deputy O’Dowd

It may very well be but this man, a consultant who is a key worker in the area, cannot buy this site. It does not make sense because he needs to be able to get into his job. If a serious issue arises, he must be there. There is, therefore, an important reason permission should be given. I would say that the situation is different on the east coast, and certainly around the Dublin area, from that in the west.

Deputy Roche

It is a fair point.

Deputy O’Dowd

The problem is the linkage with the community. He does not have a link because he is new to the area. Thousands of people are moving into areas like this and they are key workers.

Deputy Roche

I have sympathy, but I would simply make the cautionary point that if planning permission was granted for a specific type of person, there is a slight danger in broadening that out too far.

Deputy O’Dowd

I accept that is an issue. Nevertheless, there is a principle that could be established. I agree it would have to be used conservatively and in extreme cases. This is a top consultant in the hospital. This site is right beside where he works but he cannot live there, and it does not make sense.

Chairman

I thank the Minister for a comprehensive debate. We greatly appreciate him taking the time to address the various issues we have debated this morning and the commitment he has given to the committee generally and to replying to all our queries. I also thank his officials.

Deputy Roche

I ask that the clerk to the committee would let me have a copy of the transcript as soon as it is available. I will write personally to each county manager and to each director of planning services asking them to read carefully the comments that have been made by the elected representatives.

Chairman

I thank the Minister. I appreciate that.