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JOINT COMMITTEE ON EUROPEAN AFFAIRS (Sub-Committee on Ireland's Future in the European Union) debate -
Wednesday, 22 Oct 2008

Role of Houses of the Oireachtas in EU Affairs: Discussion.

I thank the delegation for coming to meet the sub-committee which has been set up to examine Ireland's future in the European Union. The particular issue we are considering is the role of national parliaments and how the role of this Parliament could be improved. We are aware that the Bundestag has an effective scrutiny system in place with its Government. We are interested in a briefing on how this system operates in Germany.

As we have a long day ahead, time is strictly organised and we have allowed until 10.30 a.m. for this discussion. I will allow the delegation ten minutes. Each of my colleagues will then have the opportunity to ask questions. I invite a representative of the delegation to make a presentation.

Dr. Lukrezia Jochimsen

We are delighted to have the opportunity to meet the sub-committee. Since time is short, I will introduce the delegation. I am accompanied by Axel Fishcher from the Christian Democratic Party. He is a member of the committee for science and education. Ms Marion Caspers-Merk used to be the chairperson of the Irish-German parliamentarian group for years, and she is now junior Minister in the ministry of health. My colleague Ms Veronika Bellman is especially important for this meeting. She is a member of the Christian Democratic Party, but also a member of the European committee of the Bundestag. I am a member of the Left Party, Die Linke, and am a member of the cultural and media committee.

I was very impressed yesterday when I saw an advertisement in The Irish Times by the committee, introducing the members of the committee to the public, outlining the points of scrutiny and asking for submissions from the public that will be taken into consideration. I thought this was very impressive, and is something we could do in German parliamentary committees. I will now ask Ms Veronika Bellman to make her statement.

Ms Veronika Bellman

Good morning. I am very happy to be here and to give the committee a short introduction about how we deal with European affairs in the German Bundestag, and how the German Government and the Bundestag work together in this area. The committee already correctly mentioned that we have a co-operation agreement, which is very important for this sort of thing. We deal with everything that comes from Europe in the Parliament first, and it is then communicated to the outside world.

Like everywhere else in the European Union, much of our population thinks the EU is a bureaucratic monster. Therefore, it is very important for us to make sure the institutions work very efficiently, something which is covered by the Lisbon treaty. We need to come up with a reaction to the extension of the EU, because we are no longer ten or 15, but 27 member states. Therefore, it is difficult to work efficiently within the present format of the institutions. We need to do something regarding the treaty which would lead to an important result.

The second important point concerns the way the various competencies are being defined within the Lisbon agreement. For example, subsidiarity must be very clear. Therefore, we need to know exactly how the national parliaments work within this framework. For us, this is not enough. We also need to make sure the tasks defined in the Lisbon agreement for national parliaments are further defined. That is why we have added the co-operation agreement for our work within the government and the parliament.

We have a very detailed information and reporting system on whatever happens within the Councils or at any other EU events. This means the government reports, particularly to our committee, in a written or oral form, depending on the wish of the delegates, on anything that has happened within the Councils, for example.

The co-operation agreement means that the government informs us through an early warning system about anything of importance, in particular possible changes to the agreement. It not only informs us but also meets to hear the opinion of the committee before it goes outside that forum. There are very clear timings within which this must happen. This is very important for us because, in the end, the parliament is the interface with the population and any political content, directives and so forth need to be communicated to the population. As ours is a representative democracy, this is important for us. Before the Lisbon agreement, within the convention, we were clear that we did not want to be dominated by the European Union, but wanted to co-operate within it. The national parliaments are important in this co-operation because we have a federation of states, not federal states.

I am delighted to welcome the delegation and thank Ms Bellman for her introduction. I was fascinated to hear about a co-operation agreement, but what is the status of this agreement between government and parliament? Does it have a legal status? Was it negotiated prior to, or following, the Lisbon treaty? In other words, was it negotiated in the context of the Lisbon treaty or was it in operation beforehand?

Ms Bellman mentioned an early warning system. Does this mean the government brings controversial material to the committee, or does the committee scrutinise all legislative material emanating from the European Union?

Dr. Lukrezia Jochimsen

The agreement dates from September 2006 and was signed by the federal Chancellor, Dr. Angela Merkel, and the president of the Bundestag. We have translated copies here which we are happy to hand over to the sub-committee.

Dr. Lukrezia Jochimsen

The rest of the questions will be answered by Ms Veronika Bellman.

Does the committee invite a government Minister to address it before that Minister attends the Council of Ministers? Does it consult the Minister afterwards to see if he or she has adhered to the agreement?

I have a few additional points. Does the committee play any role in transposing EU directives into domestic legislation in parliament? Does it place items on the agenda for plenary parliamentary sessions? How does it communicate with the public and how does the public know what the committee is doing? Is there any process of communication?

Ms Veronika Bellman

I will try to answer members' questions in order. My colleague, Ms Jochimsen, has already answered part of the question and a draft of this agreement was already written before Lisbon. I do not want to hide the fact that between the Government and the Bundestag there has been a certain mistrust towards what comes out of the EU, and this is independent of political parties. It is sometimes the case that the councils and the federal Chancellor negotiate things within the EU context. They agree on things which then need to happen immediately, but Parliament has not been included in the discussion. Thus, there are sometimes discrepancies and it happens that the political will of the Parliament is not included as we had hoped.

This was the reason we came up with the co-operation agreement, which is based on Article 23 of the Basic Law and is now the basis for our work. It has increased the trust between the two sides, and Parliament now knows that legally it must be included in any discussions about EU affairs. With regard to the early warning system, in our European Union committee it is the case that before and after any Council meetings a Minister or secretary of state comes to us and talks about all aspects of the legislation. The EU committee is of the highest importance because we are the only committee that can make decisions in the name of the whole Parliament. We can come up with a decision on anything to do with the EU in an autonomous fashion. Draft directives or other political initiatives from the European Union are first discussed in our committee. Apart from this, we also have the right to come up with initiatives. We do not simply wait for political matters to come to us to be discussed and then passed to other committees. We also have the right to raise points we want the government to take up within the European Union.

I have just received a copy of the co-operation agreement and it is a very interesting document. Has co-operation between the European Parliament and the federal government increased public awareness of the implementation of EU measures in Germany?

Could a member of the delegation describe the reaction in Germany to the defeat of the Lisbon treaty referendum in Ireland? The delegates spoke about co-operation at an EU level, which is Germany's approach. Would the Lisbon treaty have helped or hindered the approach of co-operation among the nations?

Dr. Lukrezia Jochimsen

As my colleague stated, the German public is not over-enthusiastic about the European Union or the fact that we did not have a referendum. In the weeks before the Irish referendum took place there was a lot of debate in Germany on why the treaty had been ratified by the German Parliament and why the German people did not have an opportunity to say "Yes" or "No" to it. We know that we take another constitutional approach to the matter but there was an intensive debate. It is no secret that my party, the Left, went to the Supreme Court and argued that German ratification of the Lisbon treaty was not in accordance with our constitution. That case is pending. A debate is ongoing in Germany. There is not a completely homogenous view on the matter.

The initial reaction to the Irish referendum result was astonishment. Much of the media response was outrage that 600,000 people could stop the rest of Europe. There was no mention of the fact that millions had already said "No" in France and the Netherlands. Now, the attitude is that we should see the Irish decision as a chance to rethink how a state and a society can take the population into this idea. That is what we learned. This is not only a rational matter. It also has to do with sentiment, feelings and fears, which one must take into consideration. They are relevant for countries that have ratified the treaty as well as for countries like Ireland that must find a new way of deciding.

Ms Marion Caspers-Merk

In Germany four or five parties are pro-treaty and the treaty was ratified by an overwhelming majority. There were three main reasons for ratifying it. The first reason was that the treaty gave us the chance for institutional reform as well as an opportunity to bring more efficiency to an enlarged European Union. The second reason was that we felt it would bring more transparency into the system, especially in the field of parliamentary rights on the European side. The third reason was that, in crises such as the one we face at the moment, the umbrella of the European Union gives every country more security and provides a chance that co-operation will help us deal with the challenges we currently face in terms of economic threats.

As Members of Government and Parliament, because the parliamentary state secretaries are Members of Parliament and of Government, we take our duty to report very seriously. In my committee, the committee on health, I must, before every Council meeting, present the agenda. We discuss the agenda. Then we discuss what the Parliament expects from the different regulations. I report again after the Council meeting on the position of every member state regarding how we can deal with the different perspectives. We then try to make a joint proposal for the German Parliament. It could happen that the German Parliament has a different perspective on some themes or proposals on the European side which are controversial, and they are debated. Since we have the regulation that we must report before a Council meeting and not just when it is over, we have an opportunity to create a better consensus.

I propose to allow another minute or so for this discussion. Then Senator Doherty will have ten minutes. We will then deal with any other points the Deputy or members of the delegation wish to make.

I wanted to ask about co-operation at EU level but I suppose the question has been answered.

Go raibh maith agat. Cuirim fáilte roimh na toscaireachtaí anseo ón Ghearmáin. I welcome the delegation from Germany to the committee.

I will begin with a point that has been raised already. It is not for me or for any Irish politician to direct any other member state regarding how it ratifies the Lisbon Treaty. I note that if we had adopted the same approach as Germany, the Lisbon Treaty would be effective because the overwhelming majority of elected Members in both Houses of the Oireachtas supported the treaty. My party was the only party to oppose the treaty. We had many reservations which we submitted to the President and to all the diplomats throughout the European Union.

One of the issues was the loss of democracy within the European Union. It was stated in the presentation that one of the three reasons four of the five parties in the German Parliament would support it was to be able to respond to the current economic threat. I ask the delegation to outline the provisions in the Lisbon treaty that could be used to deal effectively with the economic threat. Would such provisions be in place and be effective and be available to member states or to the European Union for use at this time?

With regard to the role of parliaments, I have many concerns regarding the transfer of powers. How can the role of parliaments within the European Union be strengthened? Moving 68 areas from veto or unanimity to qualified majority voting is the best way to enhance the role of national parliaments. As a smaller member state, Ireland's situation was different from Germany's where Germany would have doubled its voting strength while we would have seen our voting strength reduced by half. Has the issue of the transfer of powers and the loss of a Commissioner been an issue in Germany? Has it been of concern to any of the parties or the public?

With regard to the role for national parliaments in the provisions of the Lisbon treaty, I ask the delegation to comment on the limitations of subsidiarity. Is the eight week period allowed for scrutiny of legislation before it is put on the provisional agenda of the European Commission, sufficient time? In real terms is this sufficient time for scrutiny of legislation? Are the thresholds too low or too high, in that half of the member states must agree to flag up to the Commission, considering it is just the issue of subsidiarity and not just the content of the proposal that can be discussed?

Ms Veronika Bellman

Due to this new situation, we in Germany think that it would be much more efficient to work and we would know which way to go. In other words, we see this from a completely different angle to the Senator. The combination of the basic law of the Lisbon treaty and our co-operation agreement would be ideal for the inclusion of our Parliament. The time limit of eight weeks means that we must discuss things together within this framework, and we must find solutions. This is good, because it means that we cannot talk about things forever, which is often the criticism levelled against politicians. The eight-week period is ambitious, but it is fine if each government and each parliament works together. This will mean that we come up with a solution.

On the question on democracy, the various competencies are dealt with in the Lisbon treaty in much more detail than ever before. That is why we in Germany agree with it and we would like to work with it, because we think that the rights of national parliaments are increased. The treaty also includes a right of appeal for the parliaments and for the Europe of the Regions. Therefore, we think that democracy would be increased.

We need to be careful when talking about competencies, because the EU always wants more. The Lisbon treaty outlines the limits of those competencies. We need the treaty to be able to act efficiently in the future, and we would be happy if Ireland ratified it in the end, after having dealt with all the problems in the interim.

Ms Caspers-Merk stated that by introducing the Lisbon treaty, we would be in a better position to respond to the current economic difficulties. What provisions within the treaty would be of use to the European Union to deal with this problem? When would these measures come into effect, if the Lisbon treaty was ratified by Ireland?

Ms Marion Caspers-Merk

The situation was just one example of how closer co-operation can help when there is an economic or foreign affairs threat to the different countries. When we compare the situation within Europe, then we have a better chance to overcome the current challenge in the financial markets when we co-operate and strengthen the rules in financial services. We can do this in a more efficient, better and quicker way so that regulations in the treaty will help us to react faster in the future and to organise more co-operation in that specific field. It is a complicated matter for countries, but we have examples of the problems caused when countries stand on one pillar and for themselves. Co-operation is always an opportunity for countries to better overcome this very serious economic situation.

President Barroso made a similar claim to that of Ms Caspers-Merk and talked about the president being introduced. The president would not be introduced until after the next European elections so it would not be possible to use that provision in the current economic climate. Can I clarify that Ms Caspers-Merk cannot identify any provisions within the Lisbon treaty that could, if ratified by all member states, be of use in dealing with the current economic climate? Is it simply a case of enhanced co-operation?

We will conclude with this question so as to allow the rest of our programme to move forward.

Ms Marion Caspers-Merk

I have known Senator Doherty's country for 30 years as a regular visitor, as a citizen and as a politician. In the past and the present, there were and are many opportunities for Ireland within the European Union, not without the European Union. This country prospered. I highly respect the developments here and the work that has been done. There has been much investment in infrastructure and education, for example, and much else has been done, but this has been with the help of the European Union, not without its help. Therefore, I clarify that co-operation could help a country. When he looks to the past of his country, Senator Doherty should definitely agree.

I have a brief question.

I am sorry, Deputy. We can pick this up later on but we must terminate the discussion now as we have a very long day ahead. I thank everybody for their participation and on behalf of the committee, I thank the German delegation for their time. They have been very helpful and I hope the rest of their trip is successful.

Dr. Lukrezia Jochimsen

We are sorry to finish. The meeting got very interesting and we could go on for hours. However, while we have our next appointment to attend, we do not want to leave without handing over a little present.

On behalf of the committee, thank you.

Dr. Lukrezia Jochimsen

Best wishes for the committee's difficult and important work.

Sitting suspended at 10.35 a.m. and resumed at 10.40 a.m.

I begin the second part of our session by welcoming Ms Catherine Day and Mr. Martin Territt to our proceedings. As they know, the sub-committee has been established to examine the future of Ireland in the European Union. We have broken that large piece of work into a number of modules. The particular module on which we are focusing today concerns the effect on Ireland and our national interests since the result of the Lisbon treaty referendum. We will give the delegates 15 minutes to make points to the sub-committee and then open up the discussion to the floor. Each group will have ten minutes each to put points to the delegates and allow them to answer. We will then open up the discussion when everybody will have an opportunity to speak. Our target is to finish this module by around noon because we are meeting again in the afternoon.

On behalf of the sub-committee, I thank the delegates for attending and call on Ms Day to contribute. Before she does so, I must remind delegates of the privilege notice with which I am sure they are familiar. Members of the sub-committee have absolute privilege, but the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the sub-committee. Members are reminded of the parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses, or any official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Ms Catherine Day

I thank the Chairman and members of the sub-committee for giving us the opportunity to share some thoughts with them. I would like to cover some ground in an introductory statement and then look forward to comments and questions from members.

I would like to start by going over again the reasons we need the Lisbon treaty. The Irish "No" vote has not changed any of the reasons the European Union needs the treaty. The key reasons for it are to bring greater efficiency to the decision making process of the European Union and improve democracy by more closely associating the European Parliament and national parliaments with the decision making process and to allow increased coherence in our policies outside the European Union. The idea behind these institutional changes is to equip the Union to better defend the interests of its own citizens on a day-to-day basis. Discussion of these issues has never been more relevant. I refer to two crises faced by Europe and the world in the last couple of months: first, over the summer, the crisis involving Georgia and Russia, in which there was clearly a need for a strong role for the European Union, and, second, the ongoing financial crisis. Both crises highlight the fact that the European Union can only achieve results when it acts in a concerted fashion and that where we have the capacity to act together decisively and coherently, we can achieve progress. That is why we need the Lisbon treaty which is designed to give us the institutional set-up to play the role the Union must play in the 21st century.

To give some examples, the Lisbon treaty would provide for a permanent president of the Council of Ministers. People will say we have managed to get by in recent months on the basis of the current treaty. That is true, largely thanks to the fact that one of the largest and most dynamic member states holds the Presidency of the Council, but that will not be the case from the end of this year. It is important to explain that our partners outside the European Union find our lack of continuity in external policy baffling. An example that the President of the Commission, Mr. Barroso, likes to give is that during the eight years when Mr. Putin was President of the Russian Federation he had to deal with two Presidents of the European Commission — not too bad — and 16 Presidents of the European Union. Every six months there is a new face and different personalities to deal with. There is no continuity. A permanent president of the Council is one of the measures we need in order for the European Union to play the important role it is called upon to play in the 21st century.

As I am here in the Oireachtas, it is important for me to underline the role of national parliaments. There is a real need for EU issues to be debated domestically. That is why the Lisbon treaty would give the right to national parliaments to be involved early in the process, when they can still influence decisions being debated in the institutional machinery in Brussels. The proposed watchdog role for national parliaments is very important in the context of one of the issues that comes up in the debate about why people voted "No" in the referendum. They felt there was too much interference from Brussels in the decision making process. This can be dealt with by giving a much more active role to national parliaments in deciding which issues they want to debate and which are close to the hearts of Irish citizens and influencing the outcomes of decisions on them by working closely with other parliaments. I know the committee has spoken to representatives from the German Parliament and other national parliaments about how they are gearing up to organise themselves on this matter.

The Lisbon treaty also gives us additional tools to fight international crime and deal much more effectively with migration. It also gives us a clearer basis for work on energy and climate change. There are many other issues I could mention but will not as we are short on time.

What are the implications of the current position on the Lisbon treaty? I mentioned the current financial crisis. It is obvious to everyone here that Ireland has benefited from the protection of the eurozone in recent weeks. One only has to compare the experience of Iceland which does not have the benefit of EU and eurozone membership. When the financial crisis first began to hit, the reaction in Ireland and other member states was, first and foremost, a national one, but that was clearly seen to be inadequate. It also led to concerns about the impact of one country's actions on another — concerns we were able to address because we have EU rules. The Irish bank rescue scheme was understood by the other member states as a necessary emergency measure. It was also heavily criticised by them because it was, initially, discriminatory. However, working with the Commission it was possible to adapt the scheme to be compatible with EU rules and the Commission was able to approve it. We need to work together on these challenges.

In recent weeks we have seen an instinctive national reaction which did not convince the financial markets because none of our member states, or even countries larger than them, is able to deal with a crisis of this magnitude on its own. Once we organised a united EU response and were able to bring the eurozone and sterling together, we were able to produce a united reaction which has turned the tide and enabled us to complete a first phase of tackling the crisis.

We must now move on to reshape the financial system, drawing on the lessons we have learned, while preserving the essentials of Europe's open markets. The fact that Europe has been able to get its act together and is seen to be capable of decisive action has also played an important role internationally. At last weekend's Camp David summit the European Union and the United States discussed how to shape an international response to the crisis for the future.

The European Union's economic and social agenda is designed to promote sustainable growth and jobs. It goes under the heading of the Lisbon Agenda, just to cause confusion between the treaty and the agenda. Everyone knows the EU model is based on open markets and high levels of social protection, but with rules for both. Having agreed rules is important. They are a protection for all member states, of whatever size, and a guarantee that bargains made will be honoured. Regulation is not, and should not be, an ideological issue in the EU. It is a matter of ensuring high standards of protection with a light touch and minimum bureaucracy, cost and interference in the lives of our citizens.

In the aftermath of the financial crisis, we are working on new economic plans and looking at where our existing policies need to be adjusted. It is important that Ireland be fully involved in shaping and influencing those plans as they emerge. The success of the Irish financial services sector, for example, has been built up thanks to the single European financial market. Ireland needs to be actively involved in the discussions on the emerging new regulation for financial services because it will have an immediate and direct effect here.

I note that the sub-committee had a meeting yesterday with Mr. Paul Rellis, managing director of Microsoft Ireland. I agree with the points he made about the importance for foreign investment in Ireland and of Ireland being seen to be a fully committed and proactive member of the European Union at the heart of the Union. There are other member states who are willing to take up mobile international investment. They also have lower wage rates and low tax rates as Ireland does. At the same time, it is important to stress that Ireland's tax policy is fully protected by the fact that unanimity is guaranteed in the treaty and that this is not changed by the Lisbon treaty.

Mr. Chairman, you also asked me to say a word about Ireland's influence in the EU. I believe all countries, whether big or small, have a greater influence because of their EU membership. There is no longer such a thing as a big country in the EU. Even our largest member states are medium sized in international terms. Whatever influence one of our larger member states might have, it is obvious in today's complex world that smaller countries have an influence inside the Union which they would never have outside it. Our understanding of how the world works in the era of globalisation must move on.

Ireland has preserved all of its key national interests intact, as a member of the EU club. In the recent debates surrounding the referendum very few new issues were raised. Many familiar issues were raised regarding fears of what the EU might be about to impose on Ireland. These fears were never realised because they were unfounded.

We live in a very complex democracy, but it is a democracy with all of the necessary checks and balances and with governance structures that run from the local through the regional, the national, up to the European level and beyond. What we are trying to do through this treaty is to make those governance structures more efficient and effective, not for their own sake but because they will help us to deliver better outcomes for our own people in Europe and further afield.

The European institutions recognise that people have concerns. Some of these are part of the reality of belonging to a club. One can never get 100% of one's own agenda. One must compromise. The question is whether the compromise is, overall, worth the effort involved. The answer is a resounding "Yes". It is also a fact that some concerns people have are based on misunderstanding or on ungrounded fears about what might happen in the future. All of these must be heard and addressed.

I will give my very honest assessment of what has happened. Ireland's image in the European Union and beyond has been tarnished by the "No" vote. I can see every day that it has reduced our ability to shape and influence events in the European Union. Other European states tend to view us now only through the prism of the Lisbon treaty. Whenever Ireland raises its flag at a meeting one can see all the other member states remembering what happened in regard to the Lisbon treaty and wondering what the Irish members will say. It has had an effect. I do not believe Ireland's image has been tarnished irrevocably. We can put the situation to rights provided we are able to ratify the treaty in a reasonable time. Between now and the December European Council there is an opportunity and a need to find a genuine and sustainable way forward to resolve this situation, working together with other member states as partners.

The mood in the other member states is that they want to get on with the real agenda and put an end to the institutional debate. We in Ireland should share that aspiration. The Lisbon treaty gives us the tools we need to face the challenges that lie ahead. Looking at the situation today, in the middle of October, faced with both international challenges and the financial crisis, we need more than ever the tools to give us efficient and accountable ways of making decisions in the future.

I am extremely pleased to have the opportunity to participate in the discussions of this committee and I look forward very much to the questions and comments members would like to put to me. Not only today but to the end of the committee's work I assure members that I and many people in Brussels and elsewhere in the European Union will follow the work of this committee with enormous interest.

Thank you, Ms Day, for your presentation. As always, I will call the first member who signalled, Deputy Timmins. I will then call Deputy McGrath, Senators de Búrca and Doherty, and Deputy Costello.

Thank you, Chairman. I wish to share my time with Deputy Creighton. I understand I have ten minutes. I thank the members of the delegation for attending. I compliment them on pointing out the consequences of our "No" vote. It is one thing our Government has not done to date for fear of being accused of scare-mongering. I find this quite amazing when one considers the campaign was fought on the basis of scare-mongering and inaccuracies. I thank the delegation for outlining the consequences which are real. It is important that we realise there is a consequence to our vote.

What would be the response to the claim that Europe is full of faceless bureaucrats with some grand plan that they do not want to share with people? Ms Day is the head faceless bureaucrat. How would she respond to the claim that there is a grand and evil plan? How has not ratifying the Lisbon Treaty held back the operation of Europe? How could it be more efficient? Ms Day mentioned the financial crisis in Georgia. I would have thought, particularly with regard to Georgia, that there was probably much division in Europe in any case, similar to the division there was with respect to Kosovo. How would having a single president or a single high commission for foreign policy assist in getting agreement when there are so many different sovereign views on the issue?

There is naturally a desire on the part of the EU to ratify the treaty. I am sure the EU does not mind how Ireland ratifies the treaty once it does ratify it. This seems to be the view of Ms Day and most of the commentators in Europe. How would Ms Day respond to the claim that if we were to have a second referendum this would demonstrate that Europe was a bully and undemocratic? This is a consistent claim. If Ireland does not ratify the treaty, what will be the response of other states? Is it possible we will end up with a two-tier Europe or will they decide it is a case that the Lisbon treaty is dead and they will stay as they are? Will there be a move to go on and adopt the Lisbon treaty or some other treaty or measure in its place and leave Ireland behind?

In her presentation Ms Day referred to the desire to move on to the real agenda and finalise the institutional debate. What is this real agenda?

I welcome Ms Day and thank her for her presentation. I have a couple of brief questions. In my view the financial crisis was critical in that it demonstrated a certain amount of paralysis within the European Union and an inability to react as quickly as Europe should and, ideally, would. I would like to hear her views on the Lisbon treaty and how its ratification would contribute to better enabling us as member states to act collectively.

On a related matter, does Ms Day believe that we need to go beyond the Lisbon treaty in terms of further and deeper integration in order for Europe to really be able to act on the world stage in circumstances such as the recent financial crisis? Does she believe the Lisbon treaty must be ratified before next June? When I have been in Brussels speaking to counterparts from other member states, the view is that the Lisbon treaty needs to be ratified before the European elections. I do not believe this will happen and I would like to hear Ms Day's views on how we might proceed between now and some future point when the Lisbon treaty may be ratified.

I have a question for Ms Day regarding what is dubbed "competence creep". The European Commission as a body is generally accused of engaging in competence creep. This is a legitimate concern. EU directives affecting family law, divorce and such matters which are sensitive social issues are in my view matters for each member state and not matters for the European Union to act upon. Such directives impacted on people's perception of Europe in the run-up to the Lisbon treaty referendum. Does Ms Day have a view on this matter? Does she see a way in which we can delineate more clearly between the powers and role of the member states and those powers afforded to the European institutions?

I will be calling on Deputy Michael McGrath in about four minutes. I ask Ms Day to do her best to respond to those questions.

Ms Catherine Day

That is quite a challenge. I will respond to a group of questions together. On the issue of faceless bureaucrats, I hope that by coming here and participating we can give the lie to the fact that we are faceless bureaucrats. What people perhaps do not fully appreciate is the degree of openness and transparency about everything the Commission does. We work all the time with stakeholder groups. Everything we are planning to decide even in the distant future is announced publicly. We hold consultations. It takes at least two years of preparation before the Commission comes forward with any major initiative. I know it takes a bit of work but we work constantly to ensure we not only publish and consult but also that we actively seek out anybody who might be interested in what we are working on, not only because we have a concern about transparency but also because we find this is a much more enriching way of making policy if we know what the views are, if we can debate issues and check our analysis and then test whether or not we have found a constructive way forward. I do not believe there are any grounds for thinking there is a secret plan in a back room that will be foisted on the European public. However, interest groups must do a little work to keep up with the pace of consultations, which I recognise can be difficult. Everybody has a chance to be involved and express their views.

I was asked what would be different if the Lisbon treaty was passed. With no disrespect to small member states, the reaction of the Russians and Americans to calls by European Presidencies would be different if the calls came from much smaller and less experienced member states. There are times when one has to say things like they are. That is not to say there is a fundamental difference between big and small member states, but in the world of realpolitik there is such a difference. A permanent president of the Council for two and a half years would get to know his or her opposite numbers and not be taken in every six months by the same interlocutors on one side who might choose not to remember the commitments entered into with the previous two Presidencies. All of this would provide a solidity and greater influence for the European Union. Having a high representative for external relations who is also a vice president of the European Commission would bring together in a much more streamlined way things that the Commission does under its competences such as providing humanitarian aid in Georgia, as opposed to things that the Council does under the member states’ own competences such as mobilising monitoring missions. We would be able to respond quicker, more efficiently and in real time to international crises around the world.

I do not buy into the idea that the European Union is a bully. It is a genuine democracy. The other member states will respect whatever Ireland decides, but it is a two-way street. Ireland will also have to respect the fact that, if we do not want to go ahead with the treaty but the other member states wish to do so, we will have to find a way to let them go ahead. It is not possible to say one member state can stop all of the others. Ireland's wishes will be fully respected, but it will also have to respect the wishes of the others.

Perhaps I did not express myself in the best way when I spoke about the real agenda. The European Union has spent much time in recent years internally focused on institutional matters. One of the reasons we are not as able to connect with citizens as we would like is that we have been talking about institutional issues which are not what people talk about in the pub or café. We need to get back to the economic issues, international issues and the European values we want to promote.

Our external competences are very important in dealing with the financial crisis. The euro is an important currency, but it takes its place in global financial markets in an internationally integrated economy. We need to have a strong and streamlined European contribution to the discussions that are about to start next month on redesigning the Bretton Woods institutions. Streamlined European messages which will have been co-ordinated internally but presented by the team envisaged in the Lisbon treaty will give the European Union much greater influence than if we react in the less well co-ordinated fashion which we do under the current treaty.

Personally, I do not think there is a need to think beyond the Lisbon treaty. It is designed to put together our institutional architecture for a long time to come. It provides for a complete institutional system with a complete set of rules. The question will be how to mobilise the political will to implement these rules. We will be well equipped and there will be no need, at least for a generation or two, to come back to these matters.

I will have to interrupt Ms Day in order that Deputy McGrath can ask some questions. We will have a session at the end to come back to these points.

I would like to share my time with Deputy Dooley.

I thank Ms Day for coming and giving a very honest and open presentation which was most helpful. During the Lisbon referendum, the "No" campaigners kept saying that Ireland should go back and negotiate a better deal. Is there any prospect of Ireland going back to negotiate a better deal with the other 26 member states on the key issues of national interest for Ireland?

Ms Day stated earlier that Ireland has been tarnished for now, and that the fallout from the Lisbon defeat affects our ability to shape and influence decisions. I know this is not a statement she makes lightly. It is a wake-up call for all of us and should make us realise the critical nature of the position we are now in. It is clear that Ireland's national interests are now at stake. The Danish representatives told the committee yesterday that following their opt-out in the wake of their initial rejection of the Maastricht treaty, they were in a way being viewed as being weird or as the odd man out. Is there a legal way the other countries can find to go ahead with implementing the key reforms in the Lisbon treaty? Is there a real risk that Ireland will be left behind and that we would have a two-tier Europe? Will Ms Day comment?

With regard to the reduction in the size of the Commission, which was one of the more controversial issues during the debate here, will Ms Day comment on why it is necessary its size would be reduced? The Nice treaty provided for a reduction and the Lisbon treaty provides the mechanism for how this reduction will take place. If the Lisbon treaty is not ratified, what will happen in terms of the size of the Commission and how will that reduction be brought about? Have we a guarantee that the principle of equality which is enshrined in Lisbon would also apply in the context of Nice, although I do not believe it would be?

It is a source of great pride for us, as Irish people, that Ms Day and many of her colleagues have reached such senior levels within the Commission and the structure of the institutions generally. Can she give us a feel for how important the role of Irish officials is within the European Union and how well we have done vis-à-vis other countries and the knowledge pool we have built up? Does she believe, first and foremost as an Irish citizen, that Ireland’s best place is at the heart of Europe and that we need to revisit the Lisbon issue?

I will be very brief because many of my questions have been answered. I want to recognise the presence of Ms Catherine Day and say what a pleasure it is to have her here to make this presentation. It is great for us to recognise that we have somebody in such a senior position within the permanent government that is the Commission.

In the event that Ireland does not ratify the Lisbon treaty at some point, it follows on from one of the other points that there will be a two-speed Europe. Europe has always found a capacity to politically deal with the problems rather than just relying on the legal texts of treaties. Ms Day might indicate how that process might happen in a political way.

The committee heard a presentation yesterday from the managing director of Microsoft Ireland, who said that one of the biggest threats to foreign direct investment was the lack of certainty and the development of or increase in risk. Clearly, certainty in terms of Ireland's position within the EU has been eroded and the analysis of the risk has increased. Ms Day might comment on how she views this from a European perspective and the implications it has for us in trying to develop foreign direct investment.

It would also be important for Ms Day to restate the vision of Europe. My analysis of the Lisbon debate was that too much of the debate centred around hypotheses put forward by certain groups which seemed to believe that the legal text would facilitate those hypotheses. It is clear, however, that the arguments put forward were never part of the agenda of the Commission or member states. We often lose sight of what we are about. It is important to restate where Ms Day sees the future development of Europe, for which the member states are putting forward the legal text to facilitate what it is they want to do.

Finally, will Ms Day comment on the capacity of the Union to facilitate enlargement in light of the lack of agreement on the Lisbon treaty? I know the Nice treaty has some provisions in this regard, but Ms Day might deal with that issue.

There will be five minutes for that and I will then call on Senators de Búrca and Mullen.

Ms Catherine Day

I thank the Deputy for those questions and will start with the question as to whether we can negotiate a better deal. I will give the sub-committee my read-out of the situation. I think the other member states are keen to accommodate Ireland in terms of providing reassurances, but I do not see any willingness to reopen the treaty or to go through a process of reratification. It has not been easy in some member states to get to the current stage. The prospect of opening up the treaty and changing it does not seem to me to be feasible at all. It is a question of Ireland working out what it wants to ask the other member states. There is enormous goodwill to try to find accommodations for Ireland, but that goodwill does not extend to changing the treaty.

As regards the question of whether there is a legal way for others to go ahead, I really do not want to speculate on that. First of all, I believe Ireland will find the capacity within itself to ratify the treaty and come on board with everybody else. I personally do not want to speculate about how catastrophic it would be for Ireland and what a political crisis it would bring about in the European Union if that were not to be the case. The EU always finds solutions to problems but, as I said, my reading of the mood is that everybody else is convinced that this treaty is necessary and that we need to go ahead with it. That will be the prevailing mood, but I do not want to speculate on hypotheses which I do not believe will come to pass.

As regards the question on the size of the commission, in a way it is ironic — because it was obviously an issue in the debate here — that if we do not have the Lisbon treaty by the time the Commission is changed, which is on 1 November 2009, we will have accelerated the moment when all member states do not have a commissioner. The Nice treaty is clear that there have to be fewer commissioners than the number of member states. The way to bring about a situation whereby each member state could have its own commissioner is to vote in the Lisbon treaty, which allows the European Council, acting in unanimity, to decide on the number of commissioners. If that was one of the main requests that Ireland was to make of its partners, I believe they would be willing to countenance that, although they were convinced for efficiency reasons that a smaller commission would be better. My experience of working closely with the 27-member Commission is that it is challenging but possible.

The Nice treaty, which we can all read, does not provide for rotation so it does not provide the guarantees of the Lisbon treaty which would be that any member state that did not have a commissioner once in every three terms would have one in the other two terms. Therefore, from the point of view of the debate in Ireland and the concern people have about always keeping an Irish commissioner, Nice is not a good basis. Lisbon is the way in which to ensure that there can always be an Irish member of the Commission.

The Deputy also asked about wider Irish representation. It is a source of great personal pride to me to see just how many Irish people there are at senior levels in the Commission. We are certainly punching way above our weight. We have three directors-general. Of the 27 heads of cabinet, three are Irish. One could say it is fairly obvious that the Irish commissioner would have an Irish chef de cabinet, but it is not at all obvious that the Commissioner for Consumer Affairs or the Commissioner for Competition would have an Irish chef de cabinet. It is a tribute to the calibre of those people, but it is also a reflection of the fact that Ireland is seen as a good European. If that was to be called into question and if we were to give the impression of being semi-detached or less enthusiastic, I do not think one would see the same level of representation. There is a lot of bright talent around in Brussels and people will choose that talent plus the positive dimension. If that were to be called into question, I think our representation would diminish.

I very much agree with what the chairman of Microsoft said yesterday about the effect of certainty. In the financial crisis, we have seen that confidence is the most important thing. Once confidence is called into question, it is hard to rebuild it. I do not believe in scare-mongering and I would not like to be understood as saying there will be some sort of massive outflow of investment from Ireland. However, especially in the current climate, if multinational companies are trying to decide where to put their investment to be as secure as possible, they will play it safe and go to places where there is no question over future relationships. The issue of certainty and confidence is very important.

I do not want to interrupt Ms Day, but I must hand over to my Seanad colleagues Senators Doherty, de Búrca and Mullen. If our meeting is interrupted by a vote on the Order of Business in the Seanad I will hand over to Deputy Costello and we will resume the session when we come back.

I welcome Ms Day to the committee. Because we are sharing time, I will just put my questions to her. One is about the voting procedure and the other is about the financial crisis. Can Ms Day outline the benefit to Ireland and the EU institutions of the new qualified majority arrangements under the Lisbon treaty? Are there any proposals — current or expected — from the Commission that would have been blocked under the unanimity rule in these areas? If the answer to the previous question is that there are no such proposals, can she tell us why we are looking to shift to QMV in 68 different areas?

Ms Day mentioned that if the Lisbon treaty was passed our ability to deal with the financial crisis would be enhanced. Last week the President of the Commission, Mr. Barroso, argued that the Lisbon treaty would have improved the EU's ability to respond to the financial crisis and I believe Ms Day agrees with that. Can she explain in detail which provisions of the Lisbon treaty would have assisted in this regard and how? When would these provisions have come into effect? Would it have been after the 2009 elections?

Can she also clarify that at this point we have a veto with regard to any Commissioner or a reduction in the number of Commissioners? She mentioned that it is not possible for Ireland to stop the other countries going ahead and that we must respect them also. Does it not destroy any notion of a veto if we cannot use it? The representatives of the Danish Parliament who were here yesterday said they continued with the ratification process because their Prime Minister did not ask them to stop. The representative of Microsoft who came here yesterday said he had seen no change in terms of his businesses or those of other companies he represents. He said the mixed message about Ireland's relationship with the Union and whether we wanted to pull out is causing uncertainty, and he would welcome clarification from the Taoiseach on that.

Ms Day mentioned that the rejection of the Lisbon treaty reduced our ability to shape and influence decisions. Can she give the committee concrete examples of how this has happened in practice?

I welcome Ms Day to the sub-committee and thank her for her presentation. She mentioned that the provisions of the Lisbon treaty would have brought increased coherence to and improved the capacity of the EU for external action. Does she feel that one of the difficulties in terms of getting public support for the treaty is that we live in an era of accelerating globalisation? In terms of the European Union's capacity for action in areas such as climate change, migration, development assistance and international conflict resolution, people are often not aware of the extent and pace of globalisation and the extent to which regional unions and trade blocs are emerging in other parts of the world. A complicated system of trade rules is being put in place. The EU is an important vehicle by which its member states can negotiate on and influence these developments at a global or international level. Is the difficulty not that the EU as a political system makes the most sense in the context of this process of globalisation and that, unfortunately, many ordinary citizens do not understand the pace at which this is happening, although their governments do? There is often wishful thinking about reverting to the days of the nation state. How can this best be communicated to citizens?

Ms Day also referred to the crisis in the international financial system. This is an opportunity for the European Union to communicate clearly to ordinary citizens the advantages of membership of the European Union and European co-operation in this crisis. Unfortunately, mixed messages have been sent. The Government took precipitous action in dealing with the threat to Irish banks. We have had several messages from EU institutions, some accepting what we did and saying it was compatible with the Europe-wide response, while others were critical of it. It is important to clarify matters and make people aware that the Irish action was not incompatible with the Europe-wide response, while communicating the advantage of being able to provide a European response. The European Union's role in the important reform of the Bretton Woods institutions must also be communicated to citizens.

I emphasise the role of citizens because one of the reasons for the failure of the Lisbon treaty referendum was the high level of disengagement and alienation of citizens from the institutions of European Union and the process of European integration. Are proposals emerging from the Commission or other EU institutions for a major EU-wide initiative to promote democracy and greater citizen engagement within the European Union? Regardless of whether the Lisbon treaty is ratified, that will be an important matter for the institutions to consider.

I have several questions for the Secretary General. To avoid incurring the Chairman's wrath, perhaps I should write her a letter. I may write an open letter and expect an open reply.

Like many Irish people, I am proud of Ms Day's achievements and eminence and the competence she has displayed. I have reservations about what she has said which I am duty bound to share with her. I am concerned when I hear how member states perceive us or how our officials might be perceived at EU level in the light of what we have done. I am beginning to wonder if we are already second-class citizens, if this is how the decision of a small state is likely to be received.

Could Ms Day reconsider her unwillingness to speculate about the possible effects of Ireland not ratifying the Lisbon treaty? I must say, with respect, that she gave a politician's answer. We are politicians and know about politicians' answers. Perhaps we do not fully understand the European Commission. I will not ask her to do her patriotic duty because that call caused much difficulty in the past week. However, we deserve to hear all sides and the full unvarnished truth about what will happen if we say "No" to the Lisbon treaty and what will happen if we say "Yes". We need clarity and deserve answers to our questions.

The term "competence creep" has been used. Mr. Michael Connarty, MP, who addressed the sub-committee last week used the term "Commission creep". He was not making a statement about individuals but referring to a phenomenon. Many voted against the Lisbon treaty because of their best guess as to what might happen down the line. I represent a community of people who have a particular concern about sensitive social issues and how future actions of the Commission and the European Court of Justice might unpack and enforce rights which the European institutions have been given by the Lisbon treaty. I am also concerned about existing provisions which have yet to be unpacked. It is legitimate to speculate on what might happen in the future.

Does Ms Day believe there is a bias as to which non-governmental organisations receive Commission funding or are consulted by the Commission? The European Agency for Fundamental Rights issued a 155 page report arguing that the European Union should force member states in which there was no registered partnership or gay marriage legislation to treat people in these arrangements as married couples.

There is one minute left before I call Deputy Costello.

Another example is the situation in which a Commission funded institution sought only to consult pro-choice groups and not any pro-life group, which lead to a 40-page report which condemned a concordat between Slovakia and the Vatican, a term of which sought to protect the right of conscientious objectors in the provision of abortion. I would like, but I do not have time, to ask about the stances the EU adopts at international fora. I would like, but I to not have time, to ask whether there is a disproportion in terms of issues such as reproductive rights, in terms of the funding the Commission gives to various NGOs in that area, and whether equivalent funding is being given to pro-life agencies whose views on issues are in harmony with Irish constitutional legal values.

How can Ireland take steps in its negotiations with our member state partners to secure the necessary subsidiarity in terms of whose writ runs in Ireland, and also secure some type of compensatory system in the event that agents of the European Union act in a way that conflicts with our constitutional values by, for example, using the common fund for the framework funding of embryo destructive research? Is it possible to envisage a future where there might be some kind of rebate for Ireland reflecting the fact that our constitutional values are different?

I will hand over to Deputy Costello now, because that is the way we have agreed to structure our business. I hope when the time allowed to Deputy Costello has expired that there will be an opportunity to discuss these points. Our business is organised in this way not to cut down discussion but to allow everybody an opportunity to speak.

Thank you. I welcome the Secretary General and compliment her on her position. I also compliment all the other Irish people who have gone to the top in so many areas in the European Union. There is no bar to promotion and advancement there, whatever about the arguments on transparency and so on.

Ms Day seems to have debunked one of the major planks put forward by the "No" campaign in the referendum, namely, that a vote for the Lisbon Treaty was a vote against an Irish Commissioner. She stated that the referendum on the Nice Treaty would have been the time to vote in that regard. That needs some elaboration and clarification because the message has been put across to the Irish people that this was not the case.

More than ever the European Union has perhaps not quite covered itself in glory but it has won the approval of many members for the manner in which it dealt with the war between Georgia and Russia, acting as a very effective and honest broker. The strengths of the European Union, and particularly those of the current President Sarkozy, are very welcome in that respect. Likewise, in regard to the financial crisis, the European Union has shown the need for co-operation and regulation and that unbridled marketplace is not the way to go. From that point of view it has won the argument in the war between Boston and Berlin that has been to the forefront in recent times.

It seems there is a mood in Brussels which is not very helpful. President Sarkozy was back to his "gung ho" summer madness when he said the Irish must vote and do the right thing. He says Ireland was wrong to take the position it took in regard to the financial turmoil it experienced. If one reads the papers today one finds he was not well informed in making some of the remarks he made about our action. I hope that sort of approach is not seen as putting undue pressure on Ireland to have a referendum straight away and do what the rest of Europe seems to think it should do. There seems to have been a change in regard to the earlier position of adopting a "hands off" approach and giving Ireland time to reflect. There has been somewhat of a change and I ask Ms Day to comment. I also ask for her comments on what was discussed by the sub-committee in module 1, the role of our national Parliament. She said there was no lack of transparency in the way the Commission does its business and that it consults with stakeholders but it does not consult with national parliaments and there is no formal mechanism for national parliaments to have an input at the start of the legislative process.

I would ask for her comments on what she regards as the proportion of legislation coming from Brussels and the proportion of legislation originating in this country or in some of the other countries. Is there a way by which national parliaments can have an input at the drafting stage? We have a role when it comes to dealing with legislation once it has been drafted but obviously the earlier stage is the place to be. Is there a mechanism whereby national parliaments can become stakeholders and be consulted by the Commission? Is there a mechanism whereby national parliaments can share the role of the Commission — not to supplant the Commission but to assist it in compliance and to ensure that national governments actually carry out the legislative measures they are supposed to carry out?

Deputy Costello has four minutes left in this module.

I have two brief points to make. With regard to what Senator Mullen said, I ask Ms Day to clarify the role of that other institution, the European Court of Justice, in terms of its functions to interpret and to apply Community law. In the context of what the Danish delegation said yesterday and the degree to which the Danish Parliament had opted out of dealing with the Maastricht treaty, will Ms Day indicate what is the view of the European Parliament on strictly opt-outs, and also opt-outs and opt-ins?

Ms Catherine Day

I thank the members again for a very rich harvest of questions which I hope I can cope with in the time allotted.

I did not respond fully to previous speakers who also asked variations on the question about the voting procedure and qualified majority voting. The Lisbon treaty would bring advances, for example in the area of justice and home affairs, where there is one of the more important shifts from unanimity to qualified majority voting. When we are dealing with issues such as illegal migration and other related areas, it is very important that we are able to be efficient and we need to move to qualified majority voting because otherwise we have a permanent dilution of the level of ambition in order to achieve unanimity.

I want to make a distinction in terms of how the system works between what the rule book says about qualified majority voting and the way the member states actually work together. Member states work very hard to achieve consensus because politically everybody wants to ensure that the decisions are shared so that they will be implemented afterwards. Having the possibility to say we will go to qualified majority voting helps to prioritise and makes those countries who are perhaps defending a minority position decide on their important points. It helps improve the quality of decision-making. It does not mean that the vote will in all cases be on the basis of a qualified majority but we need to have that possibility in order to concentrate the debate efficiently.

The second important feature of the Lisbon treaty which I wish to highlight is in the area of justice and home affairs, the move to co-decision in a number of important areas. In the area of justice and home affairs the European Parliament's role is largely consultative at the moment. It will become compulsory when we move to co-decision and this is important for the democratic debate. There are important issues which we are missing at the moment and which we need and which will only be possible with the Lisbon treaty.

There is a vote in the Seanad but I ask Ms Day to continue.

Ms Catherine Day

In answer to the question about the financial crisis, one of the areas where the Lisbon treaty streamlines the situation is the external representation of the Union which would be through the permanent President of the European Council and the President of the Commission. When we try to organise ourselves to participate in global debates at the moment, it will be more complicated because we do not have those provisions. Therefore, we will probably have a number of member states all wanting to be independently represented. That will produce a less than streamlined European representation. It certainly means that we are always jostling for a lot of seats at every meeting, which is not necessarily the best way to present the European Union. This is just one example of where there would be an improvement.

The point made about vetoing the reduction in the Commission is technically correct. The decision to appoint a new Commission will have to be taken unanimously, which includes the decision on which country will not be represented by a commissioner. However, if we are in a situation where one country is unable to move to the Lisbon treaty, there will certainly be much debate about which should be the country that will not have a commissioner in the new Commission, and we will have to see. I do not want to speculate about how political decisions will be taken, but there will be considerable debate about this issue if we are still operating on the basis of the Nice treaty by the time a new Commission has to be nominated, due to the disadvantages that were pointed out during the referendum campaign.

I must interject in order to make best use of the time we have. I am trying to ensure that Deputy Costello's questions get answered in the time that we have. After that, I will provide time needed to answer any questions from this group. I am anxious to ensure that we stick to our module approach and that the Deputy's questions get the time they need.

The principle is that each group has ten minutes in which to ask questions and get answers. It is inequitable if one group is permitted to spend the ten minutes asking questions and then be given the general time. The general time is for people who did not get a question in. We are happy to let it go today, but I think that due to the limited timeframe we have, it is important that we stick rigidly to it. Deputy Creighton and I could have spent the ten minutes asking questions if we wished, but we stuck within the timeframe.

I take the Deputy's point, but the reason I have just interjected is to ensure that Deputy Costello gets the right to which Deputy Timmins refers. In our private business, I am happy to review that.

Ms Catherine Day

I will follow the Chairman's guidance and come immediately to Deputy Costello's questions. The question about the role of national parliaments is very important. There is currently no role for national parliaments, so decisions are eventually arrived at by the Council of Ministers and by the Parliament, which then have to be transposed into national legislation. I can imagine it must be very frustrating for Deputies who are told that they cannot reopen something that has already been decided. The Lisbon treaty would give a formal role to national parliaments to enable them to be consulted on all proposals at the proposal stage, and to respond if they think that the Commission proposal infringes on grounds of subsidiarity.

President Barroso decided very early on that he wanted actively to seek more involvement of national parliaments. For a number of years, the Commission has been sending all our proposals to all national parliaments. We are soliciting opinions and we respond to every opinion. We are making significant progress step by step. We need the Lisbon treaty to formalise that right of national parliaments to be involved. The treaty gives a right to national parliaments to be consulted on legislative proposals. The Commission intends to continue to send all of our proposals to national parliaments, because we wanted to have this dialogue. That is part of the answer to the Deputy's question on whether it was possible for parliaments to have a role before a decision is made.

If the Parliament is prepared to organise itself to take the workload, then it is possible. The Commission publishes many green papers exploring issues which may be turned into formal proposals in the future. We publish an annual policy statement every year of what we will do in the next calendar year. Any national parliament clear on the issues in which it is really interested can follow them. We are always interested in opinions and will always respond to them. It is important also for each national parliament to consolidate alliances with other like-minded parliaments because we will take very seriously views from any individual parliament. However, if we get a similar thread coming through from several parliaments, that has even more resonance with us.

Second, I was very pleased the Deputy raised the question about compliance because this is an issue that is very much on the Commission's mind. How we implement community law is a big challenge. We would certainly like to see national parliaments debating their own country's compliance rates. Imperfect compliance, for whatever reason, is denying to the citizens of that part of the Union the benefits of whatever has been decided by their Ministers and their members of the European Parliament.

We are putting a great deal of effort into trying to build a closer partnership with member states to understand why we have difficulties in implementing certain directives. We ask whether it is because they are not clear, because the necessary investment has not been planned, because things have changed since the directives were implemented or whatever. We would really like to have this debate. We are working hard to make much more information publicly available about infringements of Community law and we are revamping the way in which we draw up our annual report on Community law so that much more information is available, policy area by policy area. I recommend that the committee examine this and we will be happy to provide it with whatever background it might need for debate here.

The Deputy also asked about opt-outs. Obviously, opt-outs or opt-ins are possible in some areas. We already have them. It is very much up to the individual member states to decide where they feel their domestic considerations require them. The committee heard very clearly from the Danes about their experience in that respect. I would like to see Ireland at the heart of Europe and participating actively in all the policy areas. However, in the course of coming to a way in which Ireland can ratify the treaty, if it is necessary to consider one or other policy area where Ireland does not wish now to be involved, that is a very valid part of the considerations being made.

I would like to come to the questions about social matters and the role of the European Court of Justice.

Before we come to all of that, we will now get into the open part of our discussion. As a committee member, I want to put two points to Ms Day on which I would appreciate a response.

First, during her presentation Ms Day stated that Ireland's reputation had been tarnished due to the referendum result. Will she give a concrete example or examples of how this has happened and if it has reduced our ability to deliver our national interest?

Second, the title of our committee refers to "Ireland's Future in the European Union". It is a plausible outcome, leaving aside my views on the issue, that the current situation, despite any efforts that could be made in the future, might be maintained. In other words, it is possible that the Irish public would reject any further plan that is put to them in any way. This sub-committee has to examine what the outcomes and impact of this would be on our national interest. Based on the experience Ms Day has had in the Commission, were that to happen, what would be a realistic assessment of the consequences we would face?

Ms Catherine Day

When I said I believed Ireland's image had been tarnished, it is because there is a great lack of understanding in other member states as to how this happened. First, when other member states look at Ireland, they perhaps see the country that has benefited most from membership of the European Union. It is a great credit to Ireland that we have been able to explore and use all of the benefits of membership but everybody sees Ireland as having been one of the most successful member states.

Second, people do not see anything in the Lisbon treaty which is inimical to Ireland's interests so they do not understand many of the reasons for the fears that existed because they do not consider them to be founded. Many of the reasons people say they voted "No" have nothing to do with the treaty but concern other things. It is important for me to try to convey to the sub-committee the sense of concern and frustration in the other member states. Many years of debate and effort went into arriving at the treaty and there is a great feeling that it is being held up.

Deputy Creighton asked about the European elections to be held in June 2009. The other countries are all hoping the elections can be held on the basis of the Lisbon treaty because there would be a more equitable distribution of seats according to population. Partners will understand that it is possible to have the elections on the basis of the Nice treaty. However, it is important for people in Ireland to understand the degree of frustration that things on which people had counted and which had been planned and worked on for a long time are not now possible. Why? If there was some burning reason that was fundamentally against Ireland's national interests, I think people would understand, but that is patently not the case in my view and theirs. That is what I meant when I said our image had been tarnished.

It is also the case that it is more difficult for Ireland to contribute positively and express concern in the many debates that take place every day in the European decision-making machinery. They have to weigh more carefully now when Ireland wants to put its hand up and say, "Well, I am sorry, we don't agree with this." Immediately, the mood in any committee meeting is that the Irish are being difficult again. I am not saying Ireland cannot defend its national interests. Of course, it can and must, but there is always an element of judgment about whether we object to this point, or do we let it go because now is not the time for us to be seen rocking the boat on this issue, as well as on the treaty. That was the explanation I was trying to convey, based on listening every day to all the other member states discussing issues, sometimes without necessarily being aware that there is an Irish person present. Therefore, I hear the more direct and blunt comments made which are never made politely when they are not aware that an Irish person is present. I would put it like that.

The Chairman is right to say there is a possibility of Ireland deciding again not to ratify the Lisbon treaty. We would then be in uncharted waters and member states would have to decide what to do about it. There would be no doubt then that Ireland would be deciding not to move forward in the direction the rest of the European Union has decided it wants to take. We would then have to be prepared to take the consequences. I do not know what they are, but there certainly would be consequences. As I have tried to explain, despite a long debate in which Ireland participated fully and had the possibility to outline all of its objections, concerns and worries — the same as everybody else — if Ireland says, "Okay, we want to stop here," it is not politically conceivable that the others will just say, "Oh well, that's okay then. We will throw away the last eight years of work because Ireland has decided again that it does not want to go ahead with the Lisbon treaty. That is the end of the matter." It would not be the end of it, but it is not for me to speculate on what exactly the consequences would be. I fervently hope that, through the work of the sub-committee and all the information people are now trying to make available and explain and whatever road map the Taoiseach will put to his partners in December, Ireland will find the right way forward and that the eventualities, on which some members of the sub-committee are tempting me to speculate, will not come to pass.

I thank Ms Day. I will call on Deputies Michael McGrath and Creighton, and Senators Doherty and de Búrca.

My brief question concerns the Commissioner, an issue on which Deputy Costello touched. The loss of a Commissioner was a pillar of the "No" campaign; therefore, it is important that we deal with it. If the Taoiseach were to go to the European Council and say the retention of an Irish Commissioner was critical for Ireland and would help to ensure the passage of the Lisbon treaty, is it Ms Day's view that the European Council would agree to allow every member state, including Ireland, to retain a Commissioner?

Perhaps Ms Day might address my question about competence creep. I was at a meeting in France recently at which a former Commissioner, whom I will not name, referred to the British elections and the even more eurosceptic stance that will inevitably be adopted if the Conservatives come to power in that country. He referred to Ireland and the United Kingdom as "the Isles" and essentially brought forward a very worrying perspective that the rest of Europe would move on and that Britain and Ireland would be left on the fringes. From my point of view, that is certainly a disturbing prospect. I wonder what Ms Day's view is and whether she has heard any similar propositions around the corridors of power in Brussels.

I am sorry, but I had to leave for the Seanad vote on senior citizens. I am not sure if Ms Day answered the question, but did hear some of her answers earlier to my questions about Mr. Barroso's and her own claim about our ability to deal with the current financial crisis in a more effective way. She mentioned the example of the permanent President of the Council. My understanding is that this would not have come into effect until after the 2009 European elections because the next President has already been agreed. That is the provision in the Lisbon treaty. If that is the only argument — it is also the argument made by Mr. Barroso — does Ms Day agree that there is nothing in the Lisbon treaty, if ratified, that could have been of use in dealing with the current situation, although there may be measures that would have come into effect after June 2009?

I will repeat my question about whether there are any current or future proposals from the Commission that could be blocked by a unanimity rule in the areas in which this is being removed under the Lisbon treaty. Ms Day says there is no prospect of changing the treaty. From my point of view, that is disgraceful. I am not saying Ms Day's comments are disgraceful but that it is a disgraceful situation. I ask her to elaborate on why a different attitude is being taken by member states, parliaments and the European Union with regard to the Irish democratic vote which sent a signal to the European Union that we were not happy with the provisions of the Lisbon treaty from that taken to the French and Dutch rejections of the constitutional treaty. Is it the case that the Taoiseach has not argued for changes at this point? Is that why the other member states are not considering changes and are arguing, as we hear in this committee, for ratification of the Lisbon treaty? They think of it as the Irish problem: do what has to be done to appease the Irish and run it again. Has the Government sent the wrong signals in the six months since the referendum instead of admitting there are fundamental issues that need to be addressed and that we need to enter negotiations to address them?

I wish to respond to the points made by Ms Day about the levels of frustration felt by other member states, the lack of understanding about the Irish "No" vote and the sense of being held up.

I am a little concerned that there is a sense that the Irish "No" vote is being considered in isolation. It is not as though it has happened in a vacuum. If we look back at many of the popular referendums held on EU treaties, we will see that as far back as the Maastricht treaty there was almost a "No" vote by the French and that the Danes voted against it the first time. There was also the first Irish "No" vote to the Nice treaty, as well as the French and Dutch rejections of the constitutional treaty. Thus, this first Irish "No" vote to the Lisbon treaty is part of a wider pattern. There is a danger that in trying to resolve the issue of ratification of the treaty the wider issue will be ignored. That is why we come back to the issue of citizen alienation and the appalling lack of information among EU citizens on what the European Union stands for, the institutions and every aspect of the Union. People know very little, which leaves them open to believing the worst claims and charges about the Union. As well as addressing the short-term and immediate issue of the ratification of the Lisbon treaty, is there a willingness among EU institutions to address the wider issue of citizen engagement?

I accept that it is difficult for Ms Day to address the many questions put by members. However, I was struck by her comment that people do not understand the danger of eight years' work being destroyed. Would it be fair to say our European partners, and perhaps the institutions of the EU, misunderstand the position and did not realise that until the Irish people, with our particular referendum process, had decided it was not reasonable to expect that certain things would inevitably come to pass? Could it also be said that Ireland enjoys in its referendum process an advantage similar to the British rebate, which is widely resented but is there and must be got around? I should say it must be respected. That was certainly a Freudian slip. In the same way, could it be said that the Lisbon treaty process, painful though it be, sends a very clear message to the Irish Government and our European partners? Could our referendum process lead to Ireland having a negotiating advantage?

Ms Day mentioned that there was no enthusiasm for renegotiating the treaty. Would she regard opt-outs, secured by way of a protocol, as constituting such a renegotiation? Would she regard Ireland's amending the Constitution to carve out the necessary subsidiarity on certain issues as constituting a renegotiation? I use the term "subsidiarity" advisedly.

In the operating of the Commission and the organisations it supports, does Ms Day think there is a bias towards certain values which could be characterised as liberal or pro-choice and which are inimical to preferences for the traditional family based on marriage? I refer to organisations consulted and funded by the Commission. I am thinking of the amount of money given to organisations such as the International Planned Parenthood Federation and Marie Stopes International, which do not simply provide services internationally but which also lobby. Is there a danger of the Commission acting in a self-referential way, funding certain organisations which it then consults in the formulation of proposed policies? Ms Day spoke about transparency. Her presence today is an excellent example of transparency. Does she believe there is a transparency issue in the funding of groups, as I have suggested?

The members of the Danish Parliament who addressed the sub-committee yesterday told us they favoured qualified majority voting over unanimity because of the British rebate. They would like to be able to get rid of it.

It appears that increased pressure is being brought to bear on the Government to make an early decision regarding a fresh referendum. Does Ms Day believe that is the case? Has the Commission or other EU institutions produced a plan A and plan B for the European Parliament elections, one for the Nice treaty dispensation and the other for the possibility of Ireland approving the Lisbon treaty? In what forum are decisions being made in this regard?

On the question raised by Senator Mullen regarding the social agenda, could Ms Day give us some information on the European Court of Justice? There seems to be a view that the European Court of Justice could interpret the treaty in a way people had not thought of when signing up to it, and undermine our Constitution through the back door.

What steps can Ireland can take, vis-à-vis social values, to protect its constitutional position from unforeseen or unintended consequences of European Court of Justice decisions?

Ms Catherine Day

I will start with the last question. The European Court of Justice is independent, but it does not have unlimited powers. It can pronounce only on matters of Community law. Where matters are excluded from Community law, which is the case in regard to many of the social issues about which people here are concerned, the European Court of Justice has no competence. It is very important that people understand there are limits to the role of the European Court of Justice.

On the question about bias on the part of the Commission in terms of which NGOs are or are not consulted, I am obviously not an expert on every single issue, but I do not believe that is the case. I mentioned earlier that the Commission consults very widely, very publicly. While we are, of course, aware of stakeholder and interest groups on particular issues, we always publish widely and invite comment, so nobody is excluded from commenting to us. I believe that we make very strenuous efforts to make sure that everything is transparent. We are, for example, now publishing on-line in a register details on every expert who is consulted by the Commission in all of the various committees that we have, so that everybody can see whose input is coming to the Commission, to whom we are listening, who are we hearing from and so on. We make major efforts to be transparent because we think it is very important.

On Senator de Búrca's point about how we get the message across to citizens, I agree with her that that is a challenge, first, because what Europe now does is complicated, because we cover so many issues. This is a challenge that goes well beyond the immediate debate about the Lisbon treaty. This Commission is extremely committed to communicating with the citizen and putting the citizen at the centre of what it does. We do need to find ways to go beyond the jargon or abstract concepts that we use when we are talking to particular stakeholder groups and explain that everything we do is about trying to improve the lot of our fellow citizens, first and foremost inside the EU, but also internationally. In areas like the fight against climate change, Europe can be very proud of the fact that it has kept the flame going. I hope that now the rest of the world realises and will join us. It is, therefore, very important that we communicate and explain.

Today in Strasbourg, Commissioner Margot Walström is signing a new agreement with the European Parliament and with the Council on communicating in partnership to launch yet another effort for the first time in an interinstitutional agreement to try to get all parties to communicate and explain more effectively. We will not relax our efforts in terms of trying to communicate and explain. I would wish for a much wider take-up and debate in the media about these issues.

I again return to the point about involving national parliaments. If national parliaments debated Commission proposals at the proposal stage there would then at least be the opportunity for them to be taken up in local media and for people to discuss them and to make their input long before matters are decided. In addition, by participating in the debate they would understand the compromises and understand where other member states and other interest groups are coming from. These are a number of things in the treaty that can help in that respect.

Deputy Costello spoke about increased pressure on the Irish Government. I do not believe there is undue pressure. It is important that people in Ireland understand that the rest of the Union is very anxious about this and wants Ireland to say what is it that Ireland wants in order to move on. There was no pressure put on Ireland at the October European Council meeting last week. I was there and the Taoiseach made his presentation of the analysis of why people had voted "No" and he was not subjected to any pressure by any of his peers. However, it is true that by the time of the December European Council meeting, six months after the vote, it is not unreasonable of the 26 other heads of state and government to want to know how Ireland will move on from this. We cannot forever keep saying we will deal with this later or we need more time. After six months it is reasonable of the others to ask us to tell them what we will do and to ask how they can help to solve this with us. It is important to distinguish between legitimate pressure between very close partners and allies and undue pressure which I do not believe is being put on the Irish Government.

Unfortunately, I answered some of Senator Doherty's questions when he was not present but I will return to his question about whether proposals are being blocked because the treaty has not been ratified. The Commission is considering some proposals in the area of justice and home affairs, for example, in the area of asylum. It is trying to decide whether to come forward with proposals now or whether to wait for the Lisbon treaty, the reason being we would like to have co-decision with the European Parliament as this only comes through the Lisbon treaty. This is one practical example I can give.

On the question of the permanent President, legally speaking we cannot have a permanent President until we have the treaty so it is a chicken and egg situation.

But if the treaty was in effect——

Senator Doherty, please allow the speaker to finish. I will allow one question to everybody else before we finish.

Ms Catherine Day

To finish on that point, we cannot have a permanent President unless and until we have the Lisbon treaty. If we get to the point of seeing that we will have the Lisbon treaty from a certain date, the member states will then need to decide but my understanding of the treaty is that those provisions will come in immediately. Having a permanent President of the European Council does not get rid of the rotating Presidency but it means that in a number of important areas, it will no longer be the rotating Presidency which is in the chair of the European Council, or representing the Union externally. Those provisions will come into force immediately. When President Barroso says that in his view we would be better equipped to respond to the current challenge if we had the permanent President of the European Council, that is what he is talking about and we would have it from day one of the entry into force of the Lisbon treaty.

I will allow one question from each person and I mean one question, not an appearance. We will suspend then because we have been sitting since 9.30 a.m. and we will resume at 2 p.m. To have orderly business we must permit some time for a break. Everyone is signalling. I call Senator Doherty.

I will repeat a question I put twice before. I refer to the claim made by Ms Day that Ireland has lost its chance to shape and influence the direction of the European Union. It is very important that such a claim can be backed up. I am asking Ms Day to provide concrete examples of where there has been a reduction of our influence in shaping the direction of the European Union.

Ms Day made a point about the inter-institutional communication initiative which I welcome. While communication is a very important element of any democracy initiative, there is more to it than that, such as consultation, opportunity for bottom-up communication, for input into decision-making. Will the Commission consider this in the future?

I will take a strictly grammatical view of the Chairman's instruction and confine myself to a question in the form of one sentence. I thank Ms Day for her very courteous and competent — and also wily and dexterous — responses. I would love to have her all to myself in the witness box and I am still not sure I would prevail.

I am waiting for the question.

It will be worth waiting for, Chairman.

I am enjoying the Senator's contribution but we need a question.

The Secretary General states that the various areas that might cause concern to people are not actually covered by EU law, yet it was possible for EU diplomats at the fourth World Conference of Women to oppose a US amendment which would have clarified that the 1995 conference platform did not include a right to abortion. In light of that, would she not accept that it is legitimate for people to speculate that the Charter of Fundamental Rights, as the charter for a new European Union, would be capable of being interpreted in ways that people might not expect? For example, a section of the charter guarantees complete freedom of artistic and scientific research, without any nod in the direction of the laws of member states. Is that not the reason people are entitled to ask whether our existing treaty rights will be respected if we accept the treaty? If we do not accept the treaty, is it not reasonable to ask whether our rights will be respected as we currently enjoy them?

I apologise to Ms Day for not being here, but I watched much of what she said on the monitor. She felt that it would be better if national parliaments would discuss many of the matters at proposal stage to give us a better input. I put that question to many visiting delegations, especially the level of knowledge that a typical member of parliament has of the workings of the European institutions. Within the Oireachtas, the lack of knowledge plays a huge part in the disinterest among Irish parliamentarians and the media. Is there anything Ms Day could suggest that might help us in improving that level of knowledge?

I would like to rephrase my question about the UK and Ireland effectively operating at a different speed to the rest of Europe, and whether Ms Day thinks that is a likelihood without the ratification of the Lisbon treaty. I will not go into matters of social policy in the same level of detail as Senator Mullen——

I hate to do this, but you only have one question.

I asked that question already——

I allowed Senator Doherty to restate a question, so I have to ask the same of you.

Would Ms Day see the loss of a commissioner at the Commission for five of the 15 years as detrimental to the Irish national interest?

I asked previously if Ms Day could estimate the quantity of draft legislation coming from Europe at the moment. What are her views on the transposition into law of such legislation by member states?

Ms Catherine Day

I will answer the questions in order. The question on the loss of influence was something to which I referred while the Senator was not here. Given the current situation, it is my view that Irish representatives currently have to think twice before raising questions of difficulty, due to the wish not to be seen to be causing disruption in the ongoing business of the EU decision-making process. Ireland is less listened to because it is not seen to be as pro-European as we had been previously. Ireland has got an enormous amount of capital in the new member states, because we were very supportive of their accession to the EU and we invested Civil Service time and expertise in helping them to prepare for accession. We potentially have quite a lot of influence there and there are other member states that would support our general approach to the kind of EU we want in the future.

Such leadership is certainly under question if Ireland is seen as reluctant to be at the heart of Europe. The things to which I refer are subtle and will have an effect over time, rather than having a direct consequence for a precise technical issue.

I agree with Senator de Búrca on the question of citizens and consultation. I want to underline the strenuous efforts we make to consult. We get many petitions, letters and so on from individual citizens as well as from citizens grouped together in interest groups. We take them all seriously and reply to them all. With the Internet age, it is now much easier to reach people and for them to reach us. We are developing all the time new kinds of consultation mechanisms and we want to hear people's views.

For example, Commissioner Kuneva, who is responsible for consumer rights, is doing much to involve consumer networks right across Europe and to get them to understand their rights and then to claim them, which is very positive. The Lisbon treaty would provide for the possibility of a citizens' initiative so it would provide for direct citizen power to ask for initiatives to be taken.

On Senator Mullen's question, the Charter of Fundamental Rights applies to the Community institutions when they are exercising their competence and to member states when they are implementing EU law. Areas that are off limits because they are purely national competences cannot be affected by it. I do not tend to follow the Senator in terms of the concern about how the charter might be interpreted in the future because the limits and boundaries are clear.

This brings me to the question of competence creep, which I was not able to deal with earlier. The Commission is acutely aware of this issue. I have been in the Commission a long time and in the past ten years I have seen quite a culture change in terms of understanding subsidiarity. I assure the committee that this reflex is now evident. President Barroso is very assiduous in asking the questions "Do we need to act? Are we the right level to act?"

Deputy Costello asked a related question, namely, how much legislation comes from Europe as opposed to from the national arena. This varies from area to area. In an area I used to know well, the environment, we used to say that approximately 80% of national legislation originated in European legislation. This is not because of a takeover by Brussels but because environmental issues are so cross-border that no member state can solve its environmental problems on its own. Therefore, there is quite a difference from one area to the other.

In terms of the percentages of transposition, we publish scoreboards all the time, for example, on the Single Market, to show where each member state is in terms of transposition. If the committee is interested, I can make this data available. We also track and log. What we are concerned about is that it seems to be taking longer and longer for member states to transpose directives and then to implement them correctly. While I do not want to go into it now as it is a subject for another day, we are trying with member states to work the day after a directive is adopted, and to use the two-year period for transposition to try to proactively sort out problems with member states before they arise rather than afterwards. There is a huge amount of work to be done in this regard.

On Deputy Flynn's question about lack of knowledge, if more of the proposals were debated by the Oireachtas at the proposal stage, this would be a way for Deputies and Senators to become more knowledgeable both about the policies and about the workings of the European level machinery. There would then be a possibility to have a direct influence. A debate on whether a Commission proposal is compatible with subsidiarity would be a very good way to open up an understanding of what is the role at national level and at European level, and how we work out the right kind of demarcation between them.

On Deputy Timmins' question about the loss of the commissioner, this is an issue on which I can have a personal view. I know Irish people are extremely attached to "their" commissioner. If we had one commissioner per member state, we could fully and gainfully occupy them. It is very important for the Commission to have spokespeople who can communicate in the language, not only in terms of speaking English, French or any other language, but with the metaphors and local knowledge to be able to explain to our citizens what is going on at European level. If part of the outcome is that each member state will retain a commissioner, we can certainly put them to good use.

Will the Secretary General comment on the possibility of there being a Conservative-led government in the United Kingdom and the impact this would have on the future of the European Union? What influence would it have on our status, given the way matters stand?

Ms Catherine Day

It would not be legitimate for me, as a civil servant, to comment on the outcome of an election. However, I know that the other member states see great value in a treaty which has been ratified by the UK Parliament and completed all stages of ratification. That is an important element in the current debate and they do not wish to reopen the debate on the treaty. It will be part of revisiting this question for Ireland to decide what form of EU membership it wants to have. Does it want to have a wholehearted relationship where it will be at the centre, able to punch above its weight and influence and shape matters, or do we want a more semi-detached membership?

I thank Ms Day for her presentation and members for their comments. We have circulated to members the minutes of the meeting of Thursday, 9 October that I hope will be agreed this afternoon. I thank everyone for their time.

Sitting suspended at 12.30 p.m. and resumed at 2 p.m.
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