Skip to main content
Normal View

JOINT COMMITTEE ON EUROPEAN SCRUTINY debate -
Wednesday, 6 May 2009

Proposed Transport System Directive: Discussion with Department of Transport.

The final item on the agenda today is a discussion with officials from the Department of Transport regarding a proposal for a directive of the European Parliament and of the Council laying down the framework for the deployment of an intelligent transport system in the field of road transport and for interfaces with other transport modes, Com (2008) 887. On behalf of the committee I welcome Mr. Maurice Mullen, assistant secretary at the Department of Transport, Ms Mary Lally, principal officer, and Mr. James Caffrey, technology specialist.

I draw witnesses' attention to the fact that members of this committee have absolute privilege but this privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I understand that Mr. Mullen will give the opening presentation.

Mr. Maurice Mullen

We are delighted to be here. My colleagues who have detailed knowledge of these matters will also be delighted to respond to any questions. I have given a written update in response to questions raised. The intelligent transport system, ITS, concerns the application of information and communications technologies to the transport sector. From a transport policy perspective it involves facilitating safer, more efficient and more sustainable transport. The European Commission, which is keen on the proposal, believes that ITS can reduce traffic congestion by 5% to 15%, road fatalities and injuries by the same percentage and carbon emissions by up to 20%. In Ireland, public sector investment in ITS focuses on public transport through ticketing improvements and bus tracking technologies and the delivery of real time information. In addition, local authorities in Dublin and regional cities have been investing and continue to invest in urban traffic control and information systems. The National Roads Authority has facilitated interoperable electronic tolling and is delivering real-time travel and traffic information through variable message signs and on its website. One sees these signs on motorways and so forth.

The development of the ITS policy has been under way since 2002, with two conferences, in 2002 and 2005, a public consultation process in 2006 to which there were more than 30 substantive responses and a commitment under the Government's sustainable travel policy, Smarter Travel-A Sustainable Travel Future to a national ITS action plan. That contains several commitments, including all-island ticketing, a national travel information portal and others. The proposed Dublin Transport Authority covered by the 2008 Act also provides for substantial use of ITS.

The European Commission has been promoting the deployment of mostly road-based telematics and ITS technology since the 1980s. It is worth stating there are other technologies in aviation and shipping that are well developed but the Commission believed for a long time that road-based technologies were not as developed and that there was provision for integrating them into other modes. The Commission has been frustrated at the slow and fragmented nature of the deployment of ITS system services in member states and signalled that it planned a major initiative in this area in the mid-term review of the EU White Paper on European transport policy published in 2006.

In December 2008 the Commission published an ITS action plan and a proposal for a directive on ITS. At a Transport Council meeting in March the Council unanimously agreed to conclusions welcoming the ITS action plan. In April the European Parliament completed its First Reading of the ITS directive under the co-decision procedure and is now awaiting the position of the Council. Last week an informal meeting of European Transport Ministers discussed the need for legislation to facilitate increased ITS deployment. They discussed the role of ITS in road safety and facilitating EU-wide interoperable electronic road tolling. The meeting noted the significant economic potential of ITS, particularly for innovation and industrial development in the current economic crisis. It did not go beyond this; it is waiting to see how the various players will play. It is the expectation of the Commission that the political agreement on the ITS directive can be reached at the next Transport Council which is scheduled for 11 June, with the directive being finalised before December under the Swedish Presidency. The Presidency has yet to circulate its draft of the directive to member states and only one meeting of the relevant Council working group is scheduled in May. It is unlikely this will be agreed within that timeframe. The new Commission must also be taken into account but the current timeframe does not allow for agreement, nor is the work sufficiently advanced.

The Commission's proposal is far-reaching and would define ultimately common specifications for ITS systems and services in Europe. Member states would then be obliged to deploy these specified ITS systems which relate to traffic and travel information, traffic management, road safety and improved ICT technologies in road vehicles. Market access for ICT equipment and software would be limited for energy efficiency, safety, security and environmental protection reasons to those devices and software type-approved by relevant national bodies in member states. This may have implications for industrial policy and policy on the knowledge society. It is proposed the Commission would be assisted by a regulatory committee of member states and supported by an advisory group in the application of the measures involved. Following on from this, there would be reporting requirements to be met by member states.

Ireland's negotiating position is that there is a need for more ITS system deployment throughout Europe but the best way to achieve this is by facilitating the market for ITS equipment and services, with decisions on deployment and implementation being left to those authorities which can take local circumstances into account in accordance with the principle of subsidiarity. The compatibility and interoperability of systems, with the resulting continuity of services, will emerge over time through a combination of soft measures and, if necessary, legislation at EU level, with increased financial incentives for cross-border deployment, can be introduced at that stage.

Consultation on the draft directive is under way. The Department is establishing a working group involving representatives from other Departments, the relevant business units across the Department and other agencies to help in the formulation of a position on the draft legislation. The group will start work in the next couple of days.

I do not understand the delay in deciding whether there is a breach of subsidiarity. I would have presumed that if conflicts were likely in terms of subsidiarity, this would be the opportune time to deal with the matter, before the directive gets a head of steam, when it will become more difficult. It will be difficult if Ireland is out of sync with the other member states. Given that it is a draft directive, this is the opportune time to raise concerns. This matter would be better suited to consideration by the member states.

This is not my area of expertise, but I have a few questions about the possible implications of the directive. For example, in Ireland we drive on the left side of the road — or the wrong side, depending on where one comes from in Europe. Does this have implications for implementation of the directive? If we are planning an integrated transport system, the side of the road on which we drive may be important. I do not know what the British response will be in this regard. For example, will there be a standardisation of traffic light sequences? When one travels in Europe, one sees that not all traffic lights go green immediately after red but sometimes flash orange first to allow people to prepare for the green light. What are the implications of this? What about road signage which is a major issue for local authorities?

What about IT systems? We have seen problems with the PPARS system. Councils also spend much money on their traffic management systems. If the rest of Europe had one system and we wished to co-ordinate with it, we would have to change our system, at huge cost.

I do not know whether I am correct, but there seems to be a rush to implement the directive. There will be a short period in which it will have to be implemented, rather than the usual period, which is a good number of years. Two years is the figure I heard, rather than the normal five or ten allowed for major changes.

There is also the issue of bus lanes, cycle lanes and counterflow systems which are aspects of our traffic management system that are peculiar to us. Will these be affected, given the amount of money invested in bus lanes, in particular, in this city?

Mr. Maurice Mullen

I agree with the Deputy on the need to clarify the issue of subsidiarity. Unfortunately, it is early yet in the process, but this allows us the opportunity to tie it down specifically. The general orientation of the Department is to state subsidiarity should rule in these instances. That is a key point we will pursue.

There is no implication in terms of drive on the right-hand side as opposed to the left-hand side of the road. This has not been raised as an issue. In addition, we are not aware of any implications in terms of the standardisation of traffic lights and so forth. There has been no such suggestion. Much of the discussion at this early stage has to do with the technologies associated with the process. At this stage, we do not know how much the information technology systems will cost. It is very early in the process. Ireland is concerned that it will involve significant costs that would be more appropriately carried by the private sector. It should not just fall on the State's shoulders. We are concerned to ensure that this is implemented as a matter of urgency. It is being driven by the Commission and by the European industry. As I mentioned in my opening statement, the Commission is getting impatient because this has been around for a long time. The European industry, in its various forms, wants this type of technology to be introduced. The European car industry would be an example of that. Over the last couple of years, we have become aware of the amount of technology within cars. Such technology can be used to push the process as part of wider intelligent transportation systems. It is unlikely that bus lanes and traffic management systems will be affected. Such urban arrangements will not specifically be affected by this provision at this stage.

I would like to ask about integrated ticketing. This is a Rolls-Royce plan. Ireland's record on integrated ticketing has been marked by a lack of achievement. When the Minister recently launched the sustainable transport plan, he said he wanted to get people to use alternative forms of transport, such as bicycles. People are annoyed that we have failed to deliver the smart initiative, for example. It is intended that the intelligent transportation system will be introduced within two years. Have we not failed to introduce similar systems in the past? The introduction of integrated ticketing in Dublin has been debated for years in Dáil Éireann. It is clear that there is a massive gap between Ireland and other member states, even on the basis of the current regulations. We have failed to deliver what was anticipated. Are we not jumping the gun? Are our expectations not greater than the likely delivery?

Mr. Maurice Mullen

While I accept that there were difficulties with integrated ticketing in the past, that project is now well under way. There is a programme for the delivery of the project between now and the end of 2010.

With all due respect — I do not doubt what Mr. Mullen is saying — that has been promised on many occasions. There have been many false starts. One should be able to use a single ticket for journeys on the DART, the Luas, Iarnród Éireann services and on various bus routes in Dublin. As we speak, one cannot always buy a universal ticket that will get one from A to B within Dublin. One has to get many different tickets if one wishes to travel around the city. The confidence of the people has been eroded by such failures. One would imagine that rocket science would not have been needed to put such a system in place before now.

Mr. Maurice Mullen

I understand the Chairman's concerns. The project is progressing well at this stage. By comparison with other EU member states, Ireland came from quite a low base. Over the last number of years, we have been catching up by investing substantially in transport infrastructure. We have moved into the technologies that allow integrated ticketing to be used. A great deal of work has been done behind the scenes, on the technology side and on the logistical side, to investigate how the whole process works. That work, which is continuing apace, makes us confident that the system will be put in place on this occasion.

Does that tie into the Transport 21 initiative or vision for change for the future? How does one fall in with the other?

Mr. Maurice Mullen

It is part of it. It is central to it. The smarter travel and sustainable action plan is built on Transport 21 — it is a layer on top of it. Transport 21 provides for a substantial amount of infrastructure and many public transport services. In addition, the smarter travel programme provides for behavioural change to facilitate moving to the use of public transport and walking and cycling, and providing a new perspective on how we should develop our transport arrangements. Both are important prerequisites to meeting the objectives of this type of proposed directive. Our agencies such as the NRA, the RSA, local authorities and Dublin City Council have been active in this field. Ireland has a record to show on this.

On what does it have a record?

Mr. Maurice Mullen

Dublin City Council and other local authorities in large urban areas, for example, have traffic management arrangements in place.

There is a massive deficit in funding for that plan. For every action there has to be a reaction in terms of the deliverability based on a massive investment which has been dramatically changed. Will that not detract somewhat from what the Department is delivering?

Mr. Maurice Mullen

Programmes are shaped by the type of funding available but the Government's transport programme remains substantial and the lead agencies are promoting it strongly. Positive developments are flowing from this area and will continue to do so.

If the Lisbon treaty had been passed we would have had to make a submission on this within eight weeks but this has been on track for months. We would have been outside the derogation period for making a submission or observation to the Commission.

Mr. Maurice Mullen

We participate in all the structures and discussions that continue. This process is slow because of a wide range of concerns in member states. Ireland is at the table.

That is a very important point. If we talk about the integration of European legislation there is an eight week time frame within which to make a submission to the Commission, if there is to be a consensus that other member states will not accept this.

Mr. Maurice Mullen

The Commission's proposal is the only thing on the table at the moment. It is early in the process. The Presidency proposal has not come back on to the table.

Are we not at the stage where the subsidiarity check would fall within the agreed period?

Mr. Maurice Mullen

We are not at that stage yet, which is important.

It is important to establish that point.

I welcome the delegation from the Department to the meeting. I am a bit mixed up to say the least. This seems to be an idea that somebody in Brussels has thought up without knowing where it will finish and is trying to put some flesh on it. Has it just been thought up or has it been going on for a long time?

How will it be rolled out? It has obvious consequences for the local authorities, the Dublin Transport Authority and the NRA. The cost of funding it will be high. There must be some plan for rolling it out, including the cost. Will it have anything to do with the European satellite, Galileo? I assume that the speedboards and electronic hoardings will be linked to the European satellite. Is this all part and parcel of Europe having its own satellite with all the information stored in the Galileo satellite?

Mr. Mullen has mentioned it would reduce congestion from between 5% and 15%. I am sure that reduction would be mainly in Dublin. I doubt if Castlebar would register on the scale. In respect of the carbon emission, how would we achieve a 20% reduction in emissions from the information supplied by Galileo? Would this reduction apply in the main to Dublin and other cities? Am I correct that a figure of 15% to 55% reduction in road deaths was mention?

Ms Mary Lally

A reduction of from 5% to 15% in fatalities.

Whatever the figure, any death is one too many. I would like to know how this strategy will be rolled out? There must be a plan, when it has been going on for so long. What are the cost implications?

Mr. Maurice Mullen

The central part of Ireland's response after this directive, in whatever form it is adopted, will be the preparation of an action plan for agreement with Brussels and the implementation of that action plan. We have to bring it down to the nuts and bolts and that is how we deliver it. There will be a great deal of consultation with local authorities particularly those in urban areas and cities where local authorities have a very substantial role and that role will be set out in the plan. Obviously that process has not commenced. As the directive is not far enough advanced we have not discussed it yet.

The Senator is absolutely right; the Galileo satellite system will be part of the European wide approach. Monitoring of the movement of freight, the logistic chains across Europe, would all be undertaken by the satellite technology being developed at this stage under Galileo and other terrestrial developments. The Commission estimates the savings in the case of the road deaths will range from 5% to 15%. In our case, as part of our plan we would have to develop much more specific proposals that would set out what Ireland's specific targets are and contribution to this.

Carbon emissions are treated similarly. The Commission believes a reduction of up to 20% of the emissions from the transport sector would be achievable. This is quite important to Ireland. This Commission believes this will be achieved through reduced congestion and better management of traffic flows and so forth and better advance information for the transport planners. From Ireland's perspective that would be a welcome objective because members may be aware the Government's objective in the climate change strategy is to reduce emission significantly from the transport sector. Transport emissions have grown in line with the economic development over the past 15 to 20 years and our objective is to try to reduce considerably transport emissions. Such a measure would complement the measures the Government will introduce or has introduced in respect of the general emissions strategy. This complements other directives on vehicle standards that parallel this on an ongoing basis to improve cleaner emission from industry and so forth. As the technology for cleaner engines in vehicles is improved, that helps to reduce emissions. That is why the Commission is satisfied there would be such a large percentage reduction.

Could Galileo pick up emissions from a lorry?

Mr. Maurice Mullen

No. The use of SatNav in private vehicles has been valuable because of the extent to which the technology can be used to plan for and track vehicles. Local authorities can monitor movements for reasons as basic as the alteration of traffic lights.

On that point, we do not have a good record when it comes to tachograph regulations. The number of heavy goods vehicles that are pulled over for being overloaded shows the regulations are fine in theory but we have failed to implement the tachography system in a meaningful way.

Mr. Maurice Mullen

That is a very important point and the Commission recognises difficulties in implementing tachograph arrangements across the Union, and believes more can be done with digital tachographs that would result from enhanced technology, not just from the point of view of monitoring but also the interaction that can take place between the technology in the vehicle and the road infrastructure for speed controls or danger warnings as well as recording time and movements. Many possibilities exist.

I can see many advantages but I can also see huge costs. The State will have to contribute to the Galileo satellite. Does the Department have a figure for the overall costs even though there is no real plan for the system to be rolled out?

Mr. Maurice Mullen

We do not have a figure for this area at the moment. There are clearly costs but there are substantial benefits to be had for industry. The different elements of industry are pursuing these technologies to facilitate them. Clearly the State must play a part, as all member states must, in the provision of funding for Galileo, but vehicle owners can use the technology to their advantage. There is some shaking out to be done and we do not yet have the costs. We are at an early stage in the process.

I welcome the delegation and thank it for the presentation. The objectives behind this are good, namely, the reduction in carbon emissions, accidents and congestion. Clearly those are important.

Could the delegation provide us with the basis for its assumptions? Until we see a directive it will be difficult to establish if there is a subsidiarity issue. A common approach across Europe when it comes to the development of standards makes sense. It would not be possible for member states to set individual criteria that would be interoperable, particularly for transnational routes. It might be difficult for the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland to agree common standards that would regulate interoperable systems here. There is a need for an approach at European level. However, the directive will need to have a light approach in terms of the minimum standard applied. We must have a common system, but what each member state must do should be left up to the member state. Mr. Mullen might also indicate, based on the findings of the working group, whether there will be a mandatory approach. If the directive goes through, must we implement all the systems over a period of time? Do we need to begin a process and have it completed within a particular time? I do not think that would be acceptable. We could accept the notion of a common standard but it should be up to us to proceed with it or not as we choose. Mr. Mullen might give us his views on that.

Are there any implications for other passenger management systems envisaged? I picked up somewhere along the way that Dublin Bus and Bus Éireann are already putting in place passenger information systems which would tell people when buses are coming. They are also using SMS technology. Does the directive have any implications for this in terms of the technology associated with it?

There is an opportunity here. We are considering investing in infrastructure in many areas. State investment in infrastructure is of particular importance at this time in terms of re-igniting economies across Europe. We are talking about stimulus packages and looking for areas in which to invest. This is clearly an area that has significant merits. Have there been any discussions with the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment in terms of how there may be potential for us to develop some of the technologies here through our fairly active approach to ICT? I am aware of several companies involved in signage and electronic messaging systems, so there is a possible opportunity for us to gain something from this. The Galileo system was mentioned. Some central European countries tend to be ahead in terms of developing technology, so we should consider the opportunities here.

Have there been any discussions with stakeholders concerned about civil liberties? Clearly, there is potential for a Big Brother approach. We are talking about satellite tracking, speed checking and so on. Has there been any input from people in that field?

Mr. Maurice Mullen

The position of subsidiarity has been discussed. Ireland will adopt that approach with regard to the discussions that emanate from here. It is too early to say at this stage, but the Deputy's perspective is one we share.

The Deputy asked whether there would be a mandatory approach. Clearly, certain fundamentals will have to be agreed. In a directive such as this there will be significant opportunities for introducing changes on a phased basis and so on. We will have to agree on common standards and after that it will be up to the action plan to provide different approaches.

Is it likely that we will have to accept the various proposals? Could we decide not to do anything if we so wished? Is that approach an option?

Mr. Maurice Mullen

I doubt if we could do nothing. We would have to be part of the process and in anything we wished to do we would have to comply with the standards established under the directive. For our own freight, for example, we would want to do this.

Is it just for freight? It is wider than freight; is it not?

Mr. Maurice Mullen

I agree, but for the purpose of illustration, we would want to be part of the overall European system so that freight companies could benefit from the point of view of planning shipments of goods across Europe. There is certainly a significant incentive within Ireland, over time, to make sure we optimise what is there. That is one of the points we have discussed.

The Department agrees that this is a significant element in enhancement of the use of our infrastructure. It was identified as one of the measures that were allowable under Transport 21. This directive provides for a much more comprehensive array of elements under the intelligent transportation system. Representatives of the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment and all the other Departments have been invited to participate in the working group that will commence its work next Tuesday. The group will examine the fine detail of this proposal and ultimately advise officials in the Department of Transport as we respond to the negotiations that are taking place. We will also get the views of our relevant agencies, IBEC and all the social and economic stakeholders that are involved in this, in the normal way. The issue of civil liberties has not been discussed to date. It is important to note that after the Commission made it clear that an action plan had to be drawn up, one of the priority areas in the plan was security of personal data. This has already been identified as an issue. I do not doubt that the issue will be raised as this proposal is fleshed out. It is important to address it as it arises.

I would like to ask about the implications of the introduction of this measure for other transport companies, including Bus Éireann and Dublin Bus. Have any issues arisen in respect of the systems they propose to introduce?

Mr. Maurice Mullen

There are no immediate implications. I presume the various companies that have systems in place, or are developing systems, will have to be considered down the road, as standards are developed over several years. The companies will have to abide by any standards agreed.

Does Mr. Mullen believe the directive will set out the standards? Will a policy statement be issued in the first instance?

Mr. Maurice Mullen

The standards will emanate from a framework. Obviously, we will participate in the technical group that will work on that.

Therefore, a considerable period will elapse before the physical edifice is in place.

Mr. Maurice Mullen

Yes.

I understand why the transport industry is heavily involved in this. It can track the lorries of private transport companies and do back loads, and so on. This will lead to a more efficient transport system throughout Europe. I am sure there are costs associated with the satellite. I presume the transport industry is helping to keep the satellite there as well. That is the overall basis of the whole issue.

Mr. Maurice Mullen

To be fair to the Commission, its major concern is to ensure that the industry is more efficient, cleaner and more competitive. We have had limited involvement with intelligent transportation system technologies, in their various guises. They have all been shown to provide substantial benefits. That is what is driving this project. The Galileo satellite system and the other systems will simply facilitate that. If the benefits sought — cleanliness, competitiveness and efficiency — are not achieved, no amount of persuasion or fancy satellites will make this process attractive.

There is urgency associated with pushing this through.

Mr. Maurice Mullen

There is.

When will the Galileo satellite system come into operation? Is there a start-up date for that?

Mr. Maurice Mullen

I am informed that it should be operational by 2013.

Is it the case that none of this can go ahead until 2013?

Mr. Maurice Mullen

Yes.

Mr. James Caffrey

The ITS strategy or approach is predicated not only on Galileo but on various other satellite technologies, such as GPS, which is used by Dublin Bus and Bus Éireann. It is not the case that we need to wait for Galileo before we implement these systems. However, the Commission obviously sees that a key driver for the business case for Galileo is the applications in land transport that will require satellite tracking. Our view in the working group is that it is necessary to ensure, through public procurement, that the industry is able to procure the best satellite technology appropriate to its needs and is not limited to any particular proprietary system.

We appreciate that you have dealt comprehensively in the written update to your submission with the questions on subsidiarity that were forwarded. On the issue of subsidiarity, if the Lisbon treaty had been passed this directive would have come into operation on 22 December and this committee would not have had the authority to issue a yellow or orange card after the end of February. Once a directive comes from the Commission this committee would have to have a definite view from the Department because it would have to act by the end of February. However, we are discussing this in May. We had a couple of COSAC subsidiarity checks prior to the other directives. I know this was a pilot scheme but when the treaty is ratified it will further empower national parliaments in dealing definitively with issues of this nature. That is why I propose sending a note from this committee to the Department requesting a definite view in the future. The subsidiarity principle is being operated in Ireland on a pilot basis at the moment but once the Lisbon treaty is ratified it will be mandatory for the Department, once there is a directive from the Commission, to issue a yellow or orange card within an eight week period. If the treaty were in operation, we would now be outside that period.

The questions raised here, which have been comprehensively dealt with, will form part of our report. They include questions on the public finances, the current position in Ireland with regard to the deployment of ITS including integrated ticketing, what binding obligations will be placed on Ireland and the implications of the proposal for stakeholders in Ireland, including the Dublin Transport Authority, the National Roads Authority, CIE and the taxpayers. There is also the issue of how negotiations are proceeding at EU level and how member states respond to this proposal. It is important that we get an indication of that.

In terms of the car manufacturing companies, there is concern with regard to integrated technology in commercial and private vehicles. Has this been discussed internationally? Is it envisaged that all vehicles will have GPS technology incorporated in them?

Mr. James Caffrey

Yes. We believe the long-term strategy is that these technologies will be incorporated into vehicles. One of the four key areas within the directive and within the ITS action plan is about facilitating within the vehicle a common platform within which all these technologies can operate and talk to the infrastructure. Some of this work is very much at the research and development stage and we envisage that the Commission will mandate the European standards organisations to facilitate standards development in this area.

On that point, do you envisage the appointment of a regulator to manage this, given the amount of information there is. I looked at some of the amendments tabled by the European Parliament, one of which states in regard to subject matter and scope that, where possible, member states should ensure the backward compatibility of ITS applications and services within the Community and avoid creating geographical fragmentation and discontinuity.

Mr. James Caffrey

Yes. One of the key concerns would be that existing legacy investments are protected, that the directive should not lead in any way or cause premature obsolescence of those investments to take place. I am not sure whether I have answered the question.

Could you comment on the issue of transparency, the rules on privacy and the "big brother" concept in terms of GPS technology in vehicles. We acknowledge that the loss of life on the roads must be borne in mind and the importance, in terms of road safety, of speed restrictions and compliance with the standards of the National Roads Authority. I have no doubt that road, dual-carriageway and motorway standards will have be taken into consideration. Ticketing and tolling are a major part of the current commercial reality and we are seeing integrated tolling across Europe.

Mr. James Caffrey

Yes. There was an agreement in March at the relevant committee under the electronic tolling directive in regard to the European interoperable electronic toll service. We are hopeful that, at a European level in any case, the private sector will now come forward to enable the timescales set out to be implemented and that by 2012 the interoperable tolling facility for buses and trucks will be available Europe-wide. The Commission has indicated that it will undertake a review of developments in this area in 18 months' time.

Do you envisage the setting up of a statutory body to police the integration of all these facilities? What will be the impact on the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government and local authorities across the spectrum of the commercial and private elements of transport within the State?

Mr. James Caffrey

I am not sure that a single regulatory body would be the way forward. Aspects of this will require legislation, for example, data protection. There are areas where we need clarity on liability, for example, in the event of accidents in terms of who is at fault, the driver or the systems in the vehicle. Regulation may be needed also in the context of traffic and travel information. At this stage it is too early to say until it is clear what precisely the framework directive will address.

In terms of logistics, there is much congestion at Dublin Port owing to the parking of empty containers. Many major ports abroad, however, have a safety bay maybe ten miles out so that containers do not block up the whole transport system at the port. Container traffic is a big issue with regard to heavy goods vehicles. Other issues include MOT restrictions and the regulation and licensing of MOT vehicles. Regarding safeguarding carbon reductions, are there criteria that can ensure this? Will MOT inspections mean tighter controls on vehicle types and carbon emissions? In terms of logistics, will Ireland see everything coming in through ports such as Dublin and Drogheda?

Mr. Maurice Mullen

Some of the issues the Chairman has raised such as movement through ports will be facilitated by the directive. It will depend on how the freighters and port authorities develop systems. This will be facilitated.

On that point, will there be serious consultation with the Dublin Port Company and port operators? We are talking about an integrated system; this is a land, sea and air matter.

Mr. Maurice Mullen

It is and in due course there will have to be consultation with all of the players involved.

In the absence of clarification of these aspects, are there concerns about the directive?

Mr. Maurice Mullen

The relevant individuals in the Department dealing with ports have links with them and are included in the consultation process that is ongoing.

There are parallel issues associated with emissions. While the directive will facilitate a reduction in emissions, the monitoring of that reduction and other issues will be addressed through other instruments and measures that are either in play or have been proposed. This will be done in accordance with the Government's strategy on emissions reductions.

That encompasses it.

I thank the Chairman and apologise for missing some of the meeting. A system that could reduce traffic congestion and the numbers of road accident fatalities and injuries by between 5% and 15% and carbon emissions by between 10% and 20% must be welcomed. Has an assessment been made of the effect of the recession in the past 12 months on reducing carbon emissions and traffic congestion? I imagine the targets have almost been met simply because commuter traffic and the demand for the transport and delivery of goods have reduced substantially. Is the effect of the recession built into the figures quoted? Has this been taken into consideration?

How will the system be rolled out efficiently? Local authorities are controlled by the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government and each local authority has different funding budgets for different areas. There are huge differences between local authorities, particularly regarding transport, roads and so on. Will the Department of Transport take responsibility for the roll-out? How will that Department integrate with the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government and individual local authorities? If a local authority does not have the funding to assist in the roll-out, will the Department of Transport supply it? Is the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government on board in this regard? It seems there will be integrated activity between these authorities. We still have no national ticketing system on this side of the island, let alone across the island, and it is hard to see such a system being brought into operation in the short term. Electronic tolling only operates in certain areas and much work must be done on the system.

What is happening with regard to taxi emissions? In the past 12 months I am sure any reduction in emissions expected in Dublin has not occurred owing to the huge number of taxis; there are as many taxis in Dublin as in New York. As the taxis have no ranks at which to park, they drive around the city 24 hours a day, seven days a week. I doubt, therefore, that the reduction in emissions sought in Dublin has been achieved owing to the unwillingness to control the taxi system. Are there plans to deal with this issue through the proposed integrated system?

On the principle of subsidiarity, each country should do as much as possible without an overall European operation, although an overarching system would be desirable. Has this been piloted? Has any European country engaged in transnational ITS activity in terms of integrated ticketing, tolls and so on? Are we still at the idea stage or has this been piloted?

Mr. Maurice Mullen

On subsidiarity and Ireland's position, the negotiations are ongoing and we are at an early stage in the process. Subsidiarity is significant to Ireland and should be taken on board in these processes. An interesting cross-border process has been piloted between the National Roads Authority, NRA, and the Northern Ireland Roads Authority. My colleague has information on it if the committee wishes to hear more.

The Commission provides certain calculations on its expectations and the process is at such an early stage that we have not yet worked out our expected figures. We are only now entering that phase.

The Department is working with a number of local authorities on the management of traffic and the development of transport. This is being funded in various ways, including through the Dublin Transportation Office. The Dublin Transport Authority Act was passed last year and the authority is in the process of being established. It will have its remit extended to a national framework in certain respects which will provide part of the arrangement for integration. It is clear that the future will see funding through local transport plans such as the existing Cork area transport plan which provides for both city and county areas. The management of these processes and frameworks will be important in such a context. As we have not yet rolled out a national traffic system, we are not in a position to say what structures or processes will be in play. The local approach, whether in city or rural areas, will form part and parcel of the process but we are only thinking about the processes at this stage.

The number of taxis is not a matter for us.

I am sure the Department is glad about that.

Mr. Maurice Mullen

It is for somebody else to comment on. Taxis are an integral part of the traffic management and planning policies of Dublin City Council.

Does the Department plan any public consultations to allow people in the trade to have an input? As there will be a great impact, will the Department invite vested interests, both private and public, to participate?

Mr. Maurice Mullen

We have commenced drawing up a regulatory impact assessment. As dialogue with the relevant interests is essential, it is our intention to involve them.

It may not be advisable to do so before the vote on the Lisbon treaty.

I asked about the impact of the recession. Does the Department have a figure for the reduction in traffic congestion and carbon emissions? Is it building that figure into its review of previous years or its plans for the future?

Mr. Maurice Mullen

It is an important factor to be taken into account in assessing the benefits of an integrated system. I have responsibility for sustainable transport issues in the Department and I am aware of the information provided by the Environmental Protection Agency and others which monitor emission levels. The information suggests the reduction in traffic volumes will alleviate our obligations under the Kyoto Protocol which have a deadline of 2012. However, it also suggests that in the longer term EU framework, in which the target is a 20% cut in emissions by 2020, the current reductions will not have a significant impact. Ireland will still have to implement significant measures to achieve the 20% target by 2020.

Deputy Costello asked about the cost of rolling out the plan and who would have responsibility for it. Does Mr. Mullen agree that the responsibility for rolling it out across the country should be given to one Department, whether it be the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government or the Department of Transport, rather than to a plethora of local authorities and regional transport networks? The main routes in midland counties, especially County Kildare, benefit from public lighting but that means the ratepayers of County Kildare are paying for a service for the benefit of people travelling from Limerick, Cork and elsewhere.

Mr. Maurice Mullen

The reach of these measures is very wide and covers various Departments. The action plan is co-ordinated by one Department but the specific provisions within the plan are identified with individual Departments. If the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government has to deliver an aspect of the plan, it will be identified as such. Many of the issues relate to local authorities which come under the auspices of the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government but others such as freight are within the remit of the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment or the Department of Transport. A monitoring process will be put in place to ensure each Department pulls its weight.

I thank Mr. Mullen, Ms Lally and Mr. Caffrey for a very comprehensive submission. We will compile a detailed report. If the officials wish to add any matter of clarification arising from today's meeting, they might forward a note to the secretariat and we will include it in the report.

The joint committee adjourned at 1.55 p.m. sine die.
Top
Share