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JOINT COMMITTEE ON EUROPEAN UNION AFFAIRS debate -
Thursday, 15 Dec 2011

European Council: Discussion with Department of the Taoiseach

Vice Chairman

I welcome everyone to our meeting of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on European Union Affairs. We received apologies from our Chairman, Deputy Joe Costello, who cannot make the meeting, so I am taking his place. The first item on the agenda is the outcome of the recent European Council meeting. I welcome Ms Geraldine Byrne-Nason, Second Secretary General of the Department of the Taoiseach, who will brief the committee on the principal outcome of the European Council meeting, which was the agreement of a new fiscal compact and stronger co-ordination of economic policies. She will also cover the recent report by the President of the European Council, Herman Van Rompuy, and give us an update on that. I welcome Ms Byrne-Nason to the committee meeting, congratulate her on her recent appointment and thank her for attending.

Before I hand over to Ms Byrne-Nason, I must read the privilege notice. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to this committee. If they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence in relation to a particular matter and they continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that where possible they should not criticise or make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. I am sure none of that will apply this morning but I must still make that clear. I call Ms Byrne-Nason.

Ms Byrne-Nason

I thank the Vice Chairman. I am delighted to be here. It is my maiden voyage, so I hope it will be a safe one. When I was invited to address the committee originally, the invitation was to address the subject of the report of the President of the European Council, President Herman Van Rompuy. I will start by addressing that report and will then lead into the results of the European Council. Since the invitation was issued to me, the political debate has advanced very significantly but it is still of value to the committee to take a look at the evolution of the debate on the basis of President Van Rompuy's report and then link it into the outcome of the Council.

In terms of that outcome, it is clear much remains to be elaborated on. Work at technical and legal levels is being started and will be completed between now and March. There are also some eminently political questions which are properly the responsibility of Ministers and not of public servants, so I will respect those parameters in what I say today in terms of my role and that of the committee.

It might be helpful if we look at the backdrop to the outcome of the Council, which was rooted in the original mandate given to President Van Rompuy. On 26 October, the euro summit tasked the President of the European Council, in collaboration with the President of the Commission and the president of the euro group, to identify possible steps to make the economic union commensurate with the monetary union with focus on further strengthening economic governance, economic convergence, improving budgetary discipline and deepening economic union within the euro area.

In his report to the recent Council, President Van Rompuy delivered a paper which took stock of what had been achieved so far through the normal range of EU actions and that he qualified, which is an important point often underestimated. Based on that assessment, he set out a way forward. His report took into account the bilateral consultations that had taken place with all EU member states in the preparatory process and Ireland was involved in those bilateral consultation. I believe members have seen the report from President Van Rompuy.

Last week's European Council began over dinner on Thursday evening at which President Van Rompuy set out the results of the work on the basis of that mandate. His report and the measures he identified in it were generally welcomed by the Heads of State and Government as well balanced. It is fair to say that, in substance and in large part, overall, the ideas elaborated on by President Van Rompuy formed the basis of the political level agreement that finally emerged from the Heads of State and Government last Friday. I will take each of the elements of President Van Rompuy's report in turn and briefly describe them as they were translated into the political statement the Heads of State and Government made on Friday.

First, was the broad rubric of economic co-ordination and convergence in the euro area. On the strengthened economic policy co-ordination, what was agreed was the outline of what is now being called, as the Chairman said "a new fiscal compact". Essentially this is a set of reinforced budgetary rules for countries in the euro area. Specifically, Heads of State and Government agreed that Government budgets should be balanced or in surplus. It was agreed that this rule shall be deemed to have been respected if, as a rule , and I underline as a rule, the annual structural deficit does not exceed 0.5% of GDP. This figure has been much commented on and will clearly need further consideration and elaboration. Such a rule will also be introduced in member states' national legal systems at constitutional or equivalent level. The rule will contain an automatic correction mechanism that shall be triggered in the event of deviation. It will be defined by each member state on the basis of principles proposed by the Commission. The jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice will be used to verify the transposition of this rule at national level. The political level agreement that the Heads of State and Government signed off on last Friday therefore provides for members states to begin the work as to how to carry over this commitment into national law "at Constitutional or equivalent level" and to provide that the European Court of Justice, ECJ, will have a role in ensuring this is done properly. We are examining this requirement very carefully in Dublin and working with experts in Brussels. In particular, we are also looking at how it dovetails with the fiscal responsibility Bill now in preparation domestically.

The agreement sets out that member states shall converge towards their specific reference level, according to a calendar to be proposed by the Commission. We await to see this calendar. Member states in excessive deficit procedure will submit to the Commission and the Council for endorsement an economic partnership programme - which is a new concept - which will detail the necessary structural reforms to ensure an effectively durable correction of excessive deficits. The implementation of the programme and the yearly budgetary plans consistent with it will be monitored by the Commission and the Council. A mechanism will be put in place for the ex-ante reporting by member states of their national debt issuance plans. The Heads of State and Government will expect that the detailed economic, legal and technical implications of this proposal will be further thrashed out in the weeks ahead as negotiations begin. Officials in capitals and in Brussels will be asked to work through the country-specific implications once those negotiations are under way. The Commission and the Council legal teams are already undertaking initial analysis which will be proofed by the country specific work under way in every capital, including Dublin.

As I have already said, at this stage of the process the content of the statement agreed by the Heads of State and Government represents a political agreement, but it does not constitute legal obligations at this stage. Obviously, the nature of what is involved dictates the very many detailed technical and legal considerations that need to be teased out before any legal text is adopted. We see this as an important process in which Ireland will be fully and actively involved. We give our legal assent to the substance only when we ratify the agreement. There is a long way to go from here to there.

Once again since we are at the first stage of elaborating a draft agreement many issues of definition and legal implication arise. Ireland is not the only member state grappling with those challenges as every member state at the table will be going through the same preparatory process in its capital, as I know from some of my colleagues who describe what is happening in their parliaments. As is the norm in these situations the expertise of the EU institutions as well as our own services will be deployed to clarify the basis on which we are proceeding through this negotiation.

Heads of State and Government also agreed that euro area member states that are in breach of the existing rules on excessive deficit will be obliged to work with the Commission and the Council in an economic partnership programme detailing the structural reforms to get back on track to a sustainable way. The implementation of this programme will be monitored by the Commission and the Council. The Commission, in particular, is developing a significant capacity in this regard, including through its ongoing work on the EU 2020 process. It will also consider how to step up that role through some specific proposals the Commission made earlier in November and will be worked on further as a result of the Heads of State meeting last week.

The political statement by Heads of State and Government also set out an outline agreement that the rules for the excessive deficit programme should be tighter for member states in the euro area. Specifically there will be automatic consequences for a member state that exceeds the 3% ceiling, unless a majority in the Council decides not to adopt a Commission recommendation in this regard. This is the reverse qualified majority concept and is building on the significant actions agreed in the europlus pact and the so-called Six Pack, which came into force on Monday of this week.

On the 23 November the Commission brought forward two elaborated proposals on the monitoring and assessment, which deals with draft budgetary plans and the strengthening of surveillance of member states which are experiencing or threatened with serious difficulties. Last week the Heads of State and Government agreed that these important proposals from the Commission should be examined "swiftly" so that they can be in force for the next budgetary cycle. Under this new legal framework, the Commission will in particular examine the key parameters of draft budgetary plans and, if necessary, adopt an opinion on them. Where a plan is seriously non-compliant with requirements, the Commission will be able to request a revised proposal.

In a further decision by the Heads of State and Government last week, it was agreed that the European Council should continue to work on how to further deepen fiscal integration so as to better reflect how EU member states are now more connected and interdependent. The President of the European Council has been asked to report further on that in March 2012. We expect President Van Rompuy will consult widely on that aspect and we will contribute to that reflection. This is not intended to be part of any new agreement but rather is situated in the broader process of reflection for all EU member states..

Another of the major issues discussed by the Heads of State and Government was the category of budgetary discipline. The new arrangements set out by President Van Rompuy and elaborated on by the Heads of State and Government will mean more oversight of what member states are doing in their individual budgets, such as sharing budgetary plans in advance. In the context of the new European semester, which we have already agreed and begun to operate and the Six Pack, which is now in place, there has been an emphasis on stepping up and tightening up budgetary procedures in a way that brings them into a more transparent arrangement in the European Union framework. The key elements of President Van Rompuy's report on this were aimed at what he described as enhancing the credibility of budget rules to ensure full compliance. President Van Rompuy had originally indicated that this would likely require changes and set out two possible avenues to deliver on it. First he proposed a revision of protocol 12, second through a possible treaty amendment of Article 48.

In order to be helpful to committee members, I thought it would be useful to point out the key differences between President Van Rompuy's report, on which the Chairman had invited me to speak and the final outcome of the European Council. If I am to be very blunt about it, one could characterise the main difference as a difference in the level of ambition between the two reports but more importantly to the pacing of the decisions and the means of delivering on the results. In terms of the actual substance and content, there is much in common between the Van Rompuy report and the decisions of the Heads of State and Government. They both argue for better budgetary and fiscal discipline. They argue for coming up with means to enforce it and to reinforce the legal obligations of member states to live up to political commitments. If there is a difference, it relates much more to the nature of the one-step approach to a single agreement in March that was finally agreed by the Heads of State. This differs from the step-by-step approach that was proposed by President Van Rompuy.

Essentially, President Van Rompuy had set out from the premise that we should start with the existing base of EU legislation and build towards treaty change as the issues dictate. He set out what might loosely be called a hierarchy of approach, in ascending order of political and legal ambition. First, he argued that a considerable number of measures aimed at reinforcing the budgetary and fiscal discipline about which I have spoken could be delivered using existing EU legislation. Second, he said the next step would involve looking at amendments to protocol 12 to deliver, for example, on balanced budgets, strictures, constraints in the excessive deficit procedure and debt breaks. Third, he argued that an amendment to the simplified treaty procedure would be needed in order to improve the automaticity of decision-making, provide for reverse qualified majority voting and introduce the idea of regular euro summits, which would have referred to protocol 12. He saw a need for action at three levels, building up from the existing legislative framework.

The ordinary treaty revision procedure would be needed to allow the institutions to have an enhanced role. There might be high levels of intrusiveness if there was poor implementation. When President Van Rompuy put the proposal on the table, he saw the process as a phased one. The decision that was adopted after political discussion last week will involve gathering the various elements together and proceeding with a single agreement that would encapsulate all of those elements. It could be described as a more fast-track or comprehensive approach, compared to the step-by-step approach that President Van Rompuy originally set out.

I would like to comment on two more elements of the report that was adopted by the Heads of State and Government last week. In addition to the categories of economic co-ordination and budgetary discipline, President Van Rompuy dedicated part of his report to the important question of strengthening the crisis mechanisms. In addition to the elements that form part of the so-called fiscal compact, last week's meeting of Heads of State also looked at the stabilisation tools, which we are calling firewalls. This is part of a programme of immediate action to answer current pressures in the markets. On the basis of President Van Rompuy's earlier recommendation, it was agreed to accelerate the entry into force of the ESM, which is the permanent replacement for the EFSF. The objective is that the ESM will be in place in the middle of July 2012. The Heads of State and Government also agreed that the EFSF should remain active until mid-2013, as previously planned, and that it will ensure the financing of ongoing programmes as needed.

Importantly, the Heads of State and Government considered the requirement for private sector involvement, which was previously included in the ESM. It was decided that EU member states would adhere strictly to well-established IMF principles and practices in this regard. In other words, private sector involvement has now been removed from the ESM. The established principles of the IMF in this regard dictate the way the treaty will be implemented. Several member states, including Ireland, considered private sector involvement as acting as a serious impediment to member states, including Ireland, seeking to regain market access in the future. It is indicated in President Van Rompuy's report and in the conclusions of Heads of State and Government that the Greek arrangements in respect of private sector investment are a once-off exception and will not apply to countries like Ireland in the future.

The adequacy of the overall ceiling of the EFSF and ESM was also discussed during last week's meeting. A figure of €500 billion has been included as a result of last week's discussions. This figure will be revisited in March 2012 in order to review its adequacy. The Heads of State and Government are ready to accelerate payments of capital into the ESM if they are needed to maintain the required ratio between paid-in capital and loans and ensure a combined effective lending capacity of €500 billion. The overall ceiling will be reassessed in March, as I have said. To further underpin the firewalls, member states have agreed to consider providing up to €200 billion in the form of bilateral loans to the IMF to ensure it has adequate resources to deal with the crisis. This process is expected to continue over the coming weeks. Ireland and other member states are assessing how this process develops and whether parallel contributions are forthcoming from the international community.

I wish to address the important issue of how the substance of last week's agreement will be delivered. The substance of President Van Rompuy's report and the outcome of the European Council meeting were broadly in step with each other. As the deliberations continued last Thursday and Friday, the Heads of State and Government went on to discuss the need to put in place structures or vehicles to deliver on those commitments. Potential vehicles like primary or secondary legislation, treaty-based amendments or international agreements are all on the table. It was agreed that there is considerable scope for making progress through secondary legislation, where that is possible within the framework of the existing treaties. During the meeting, President Van Rompuy sought to proceed with the support of all 27 member states. When this did not prove possible - for reasons that have subsequently been aired extensively - the Heads of State agreed to proceed by way of an international agreement, encompassing all the elements of substance to which I have alluded previously and involving all the euro area member states and any other member states that wish to join the agreement.

A number of EU leaders are now involved in a process of consulting their government partners and parliaments. It is not unlikely that the other 26 member states will agree to participate. Clearly, we are in contact with our partners at the table to monitor how the debate is evolving in each member state. At the end of last week's Council meeting, the clear exception was the UK, which felt it was not in a position to join that decision. This has been regarded by the Irish Government as a disappointing development. Clearly, it is a matter for the UK Prime Minister, Mr. Cameron to decide how best to advance and defend the UK's interests. In approaching the meeting, Ireland had hoped a way forward could be found by all 27 member states, not least as a strong signal of complete unity and common purpose at European level. The Taoiseach, the Tánaiste and the Minister of State with responsibility for European affairs have repeated in the Dáil this week that the UK is our closest neighbour and often our staunchest ally at the European table. Its unique and important perspective will be missing from these critical debates. A further aspect of President Van Rompuy's report was set out in a mandate to President Van Rompuy. It relates somewhat to what I have just said. In March, the European Council will look at relations between all EU member states and the euro area. We regard this as an important opportunity for all 27 member states to examine how they co-operate and how they will work together again in the future.

I wish to speak about the next steps in the process. Last night, we received a letter from the Secretary General of the secretariat of the European Council, setting in place the practical arrangements for the negotiation of what has been described as an international agreement that reflects the elements that were contained in the statement issued by the Heads of State last week. This work, which will involve the legal services of the Commission and the Council, is getting under way. An initial text will be prepared in the coming weeks, after which it will be shared with member states and subjected to intense negotiations in the usual way. This will involve senior officials from the Departments of Finance, the Taoiseach and Foreign Affairs and Trade, as well as the Office of the Attorney General. Many questions have to be considered, including what the eventual adoption of the agreement will mean for Ireland and whether a referendum may be required to ensure we are in a position to ratify what has been agreed. The simple fact is that it is not possible to answer those questions until we have a legal text to consider. There will be many complex issues to be considered in detail shortly. The Attorney General will wish to give the texts full study before offering to the Government advice on the basis of which it would proceed. I apologise for speaking at such length, however I thought it important to set out to the joint committee the position in detail.

Vice Chairman

I thank Ms Byrne-Nason for her contribution.

I welcome Ms Byrne-Nason and her officials to the meeting and wish her well in her new role. We have all been aware of her interest in European affairs for some time and I have no doubt she will bring great insight to her new role. That she occupies her current position at this difficult time will be of great assistance to the State.

I will leave the political dimension aside and address the modalities of what will come next. When is a first draft of the agreement expected? Will it be available before Christmas or must we wait until the new year? On the position adopted by Britain, it would have been wonderful to have 27 member states reach agreement. Is Ms Byrne-Nason aware of any diplomatic efforts to try to bridge the gap between the United Kingdom and the other 26 member states? While different issues have been raised in the media to explain the reason Britain was not in a position to proceed with the agreement, will Ms Byrne-Nason shed a little more light on these reasons from her vantage point? I will conclude with that question as to go further would lead me into political territory, which I do not wish to do.

Vice Chairman

We admire Deputy Dooley's restraint.

I will leave party politics for the Dáil Chamber.

Vice Chairman

There is a time and place.

I welcome Ms Byrne-Nason and her colleagues and congratulate her on her appointment. I am pleased to see women take up roles they did not occupy in the past. I commend Ms Byrne-Nason on getting to where she is through her considerable ability.

It is disappointing that the meeting of Heads and State and Government failed to reach an agreement accepted by all 27 European Union member states. This is a highly regrettable outcome given that Britain is our largest trading partner and Ireland is Britain's fifth largest trading partner. We have a close relationship with the United Kingdom and receive support from it through its welcome financial contribution to help resolve our current financial difficulties.

The use of the veto in Europe was once important but has become a thing of the past. To overcome the possibility of a veto being used the agreement reached will be designated an international agreement of 26 member states. This approach changes the role of the European Union. I was involved in negotiations on the Single European Act, during which the veto was regarded as a measure of last resort and was never used. Every effort should be made to ensure Britain remains an integral part of the European Union and is not shunned. The television reports emerging from the summit were not indicative of support for the Prime Minister at the meeting. I hope relations will be maintained and all diplomatic efforts will be made to ensure arrangements are made to address the position of Britain.

On the alleged breaking point, namely, the imposition of a tax on financial transactions, what effect would such a measure have on Ireland if we were to adopt it? Some 37,000 people work in financial services in Dublin thanks to a highly successful policy introduced by a previous Fianna Fáil-led Government. Anything that would affect this sector would damage our economy. If Britain could not agree to the proposal because of financial services based in London, why could we agree to it given the financial services based in Dublin?

I welcome Ms Byrne-Nason and her officials. The agreement moves in an entirely new direction in the sense that it will not be a European Union treaty but a series of multilateral treaties. Will it be necessary to establish new bodies in Europe and, if not, which European Union institutions will be tied into the treaty to oversee and pass rulings based on the outcome of the agreement, including the budgetary restrictions it is proposed to apply?

As the new treaty is external to the Treaty on European Union and given Britain's decision to remain outside the agreement, there is a good chance the United Kingdom will become even more economically isolated from the EU, including Ireland, if conflict arises. In that context, I was pleased to learn that a measure has been built in that the European Council will consider relations between all 27 member states. Britain has taken a stance which is, by its nature, isolationist. Will this have negative ramifications for the British-Irish relationship? As Ms Byrne-Nason pointed out, until now Britain and Ireland have been major allies at the European table.

Ms Geraldine Byrne-Nason

I will address members' questions in order. Deputy Dooley asked when we may see the first draft. We do not yet have a first draft but the indications from the services in Brussels are that we should have one before Christmas. As with all of these negotiations, the first draft will be a first basis for discussion. This is, however, a good indicator that business is moving very quickly. It also to some extent reflects the fact that only a small number of issues remain to be elaborated. The depth and complexity of them, once they are on the table, is a slightly different matter. However, we do not need much time to get negotiations under way. I suspect we will have to take home a draft international agreement for bedside reading before we break for Christmas.

Perhaps I could pick up on the references from each of the speakers to the position of the United Kingdom as a result of the decision made last Friday. Deputy Dooley asked specifically about diplomatic efforts, Senator Leyden asked about the nature of the UK position and whether it would remain an integral part of the European Union, while Senator Healy Eames asked a question about the isolation of the United Kingdom. As I noted and politicians repeatedly stated this week, this was a disappointing outcome from Ireland's perspective. We had genuinely begun the negotiation with the objective and expectation that there would be an outcome at the level of 27 countries. The country that may not be included clearly has particular importance for Ireland, not only in respect of our bilateral relationship but also in respect of the close relationship we have as a member of the European Union at the table.

As to the reasons for Britain's decision, it would not be appropriate for me to explain the views of the UK Prime Minister, Mr. Cameron as a result of the meeting of the Heads of State and Government. The Prime Minister is more than capable of explaining his position and has been doing so all week in London. I will say, however, that publicly there have been many references on the part of British officials and politicians to the question of safeguards for the City of London. We know that within the ongoing work of the European Union, at the level of the 27 member states, there are, in the normal legislative process, a number of regulations and directives being examined which refer to the regulatory environment of the financial services sector. It is fair to say that from the public remarks we have heard, some of those issues would certainly have been part of the consideration of the UK.

If I could link to that very point a response on how we can ensure the United Kingdom is not isolated, as it were, much of the concern expressed around safeguards can also be looked at in the broader context of the work taking place in the European Union. Moving ahead with the fiscal compact, Ireland in particular does not regard this in any way as affecting the very important work we do at the level of 27 members on financial services and, critically, the Single Market as a whole. For us, the Single Market has always been the key interest in terms of advancing and promoting Ireland's economic future. We will continue to work very closely, as we have done in the past, with the UK and other member states to advance the Single Market. It remains one of the primary pathways to recovery from Ireland's point of view. Therefore, we see it as very much in our interests to work across all of the issues in the Single Market.

On that point, would it be possible to do that if the mechanisms change?

Ms Geraldine Byrne-Nason

In regard to the work on the Single Market, to be blunt, nothing has changed. That continues to be the proper preserve of the ongoing EU legislative environment, therefore, the Commission and the Council are all the institutional supports for the work on the Single Market. The Senator's earlier question raised the important issue of the relationship of those institutions to this new agreement. That is one of the big issues that will arise in this negotiation because it is clear once we establish an agreement among a number of member states outside the treaties, the relationship of the Commission and of the European Court of Justice will need to be legally defined in terms of support for that agreement. That has not been done through a political statement but it is one of the issues that will have to be worked through in the negotiation. From a national point of view it is one of the areas we regard as key. Our view of our role in Europe has always been linked to the strong role of the institutions and, in particular, in this context, the Commission.

In my remarks I mentioned the role of the Commission in supporting some of the steps we are taking on budgetary process and on greater fiscal discipline. We will be very careful to watch the role of the Commission. On that point, clearly we expect the Commission is working to define its own concept as to how it would best support this new agreement. It is a new departure, as the Chairman said, and the new configuration in terms of how they link in and give political and legal support to this arrangement would be very important. We will be looking at that issue very carefully.

Senator Leyden raised the question of the financial transaction tax. In terms of strictly legal correct substance the financial transaction tax was not on the table for discussion last week but, clearly, given our knowledge of the range of issues that might arise, as we deepen economic integration, one would be the financial transaction tax . In the past it has been the subject of discussions at the heads of state, in the G20 and within the eurozone. Our national position has consistently been, given the sensitivities around the impact of the tax, were it to be agreed, that it should be a global level agreement and our preference is to see that advanced through the G20. If there was a proposal to bring it into the context of a European environment we would see that being done at the level of 27 member states. If it were to move to a discussion at any other level, there would be issues of competitive challenge. We would prefer if this was conducted from the outset at a global level in order to have a level playing field in terms of our own economic interest.

I thank Ms Byrne-Nason for her comprehensive response.

I congratulate Ms Byrne-Nason on her new assignment and wish her every success. I had the privilege of working with her previously in Brussels and I know she is up-to-date in dealing with her portfolio. Given the changes that have come about in Europe, including the issue of the UK as raised by some of my colleagues - I worked with some members of the Conservative Party in Brussels who were very pro-Europe but that has changed following the way it approached these problems - does the witness see the UK watering down its opposition to what has occurred or opting out as an initial reaction?

The second issue is the speed with which Europe has to deal with issues. There is a criticism that Europe has been slow to deal with this problem. Does the witness expect that Europe will be much faster off the mark in dealing with future problems and, if so, that there is a need for Ireland to be much faster off the mark in dealing with issues as they arise. In other words, Europe will move at a faster pace under the new agreement on issues as they arise as opposed to under the old structures. Likewise, we need to adjust the way we deal with issues from Europe in the various Departments and also within the political structures?

Like the previous speakers I am pleased the witness is appearing before the committee. No doubt, as a consequence of the quality of the language in her report, her appointment has been based totally on merit. Although we have never spoken before I congratulate her as it would appear she has recently been appointed to the post she now holds. I say that because language around this issue is important. I welcome the clarity of the language and the fact that she does not speak like a technocrat. In these challenging times the message has to be clear to the people, particularly the consequences of the juncture we are at in regard to our membership of the euro.

While the witness speaks of political outcomes for the Council and the report by President Van Rompuy, that registers with people in this room, but we pale into insignificance relative to the others who are involved. The consequences are far-reaching for the Irish people. We must develop a process and a language around the message. The Government has been accused of scaremongering on the prospect of a treaty by putting the question as to whether we are in our out. What we really talking about here is special needs assistants, hospitals, teachers, gardaí, delivery of public services, our role as Europeans and our responsibility to citizens.

It is easy from a macro European level for the reality to be lost when we talk about the eurozone crisis, the Germans and French, the report by President Van Rompuy, most of which is lost on people, but this creates a very shallow basis for a genuine debate on the significant implications of what we are discussing here, namely, the quality of life for our people. In that respect I ask the witness to continue in the vein she has presented today as this approach is not losing the attention of people.

We do a great disservice to our constituents as politicians by speaking fluff and waffle on issues when it comes to Europe. We need to look at the consequences of the domestic circumstances for every man, woman and child in the context of every decision we make subsequent to the proposals presented at the Council and where this journey takes us in March. We then need to develop words around this where people can identify with the importance of the juncture we are at. I ask the witness to bear that in mind in every effort she makes in the course of the next few weeks and months.

I welcome Ms Byrne-Nason to the committee and congratulate her on her comprehensive appraisal of the position as it presents itself. Perhaps I will be permitted, on the basis of age, to comment rather than ask questions. We must all welcome the process in so far as it has gone. It is the first indication of any cohesive approach to the situation that we have seen in the past four years. When an approach of this nature was required at an earlier stage, there was no inclination on the part of our colleagues or of us as a population to recognise the magnitude of the problem unfolding before us and the necessity to deal resolutely with it from the outset. It is that lack of vision over the past ten years and the lack of intent and resolution over the past four or five years that have led us to the position we are now in. Nothing undermines confidence in markets as much as indecision and doubt. Once these emerge as a major factor and once a perceived agreement is reached and two or three days later is undermined by something somebody has or has not said or done, this dramatically undermines the overall confidence in the institutions with which we deal and, consequently, the European political and economic agenda.

It is unfortunate that the United Kingdom is out of the equation as the situation unfolds. It is a major player and economy within the European Union, whether in or outside of the currency and anything that excludes it, whether on its own part or otherwise, is detrimental to the European project. This is not new on the part of our colleagues in the UK and I agree fully with other speakers that as far as we are concerned, the UK is our trading partner. We have considerable trade with the UK, just as it does with us and I cannot over-emphasise the points made with regard to the need to create a situation where the UK is involved and is a driving force in Europe as we proceed into the future.

Supervision has been more spectacular by its absence over the past ten years than by its application. I see nothing wrong with regard to the supervision now proposed and do not see a major problem with regard to winning a referendum on that basis in Ireland or any other country, provided we want to carry out the procedures that were not carried out previously without superimposing any new bureaucracy on each other, politically or institutionally. That supervision must be recognised and applied by everybody, the large and small, great and good. If this does not happen, this and any subsequent agreement will mean nothing. We had the Stability and Growth Pact and while it was a great idea and looked good, it did not work because of the lack of supervision.

We hear a lot of talk about sovereignty and the lack of sovereignty. Sovereignty means different things to different people. To some people, sovereignty means being able to do what they wish, when they wish, regardless of others. That is not sovereignty, but erosion of the image and vision of what Europe should be about. I see nothing wrong with a situation whereby each member state is accountable to a central institution to give an indication to the effect that it is not by its domestic, political or public policy undermining what it has signed up to at European level. This is critical now. If we have one more breakdown in that concept in the European arena, it will do irreparable damage. There is no sense in signing up to any kind of socio, political or economic agreement in one form and putting in place guidelines for observance by everybody and then walking away from that at the first opportunity for political purposes and domestic political gain. That does not and will not work.

I welcome this proposal in so far as it goes. We have been very critical of some of the things that have happened with regard to the European project in the past, but we must get the macro picture right now, without seeming to impose on the internal, domestic affairs of national member states. At the same time, we must ensure that member state parliaments and the public realise that they cannot have it all their own way and at the same time be part of a forward movement of people together.

Reflecting on what has been said so far and as Ms Byrne-Nason has said, there is no text for a treaty yet. Therefore, we are not working off a baseline that we can trust, but are speculating. Given that much EU business is currently transacted through the City of London, could the fact that the UK has decided to opt out represent an opportunity for us? We have expressed disappointment regarding the relationship between Britain and the EU, but could this opt-out by Britain represent an opportunity for Ireland given the financial services sector we have here? What is the view on that? The die is cast to some extent. Britain has decided to opt out of the agreement and now we have a club of 26 bearing down on the text of a new treaty. Could there be an opportunity there for Dublin's financial sector that may not have been considered previously?

Seeing Britain opt out as it has done, has shown a retrenchment to a nationalistic as opposed to a European view. My understanding is that Europe is a functional family when everybody works, contributes and plays by the rules. We have seen one drop out. Are we likely to see any more fall out? We do not have the text of a treaty yet, but is it possible there will be more dropping out? We are on shifting sands all the time and the one thing that has been certain about the European model over the past two or three years since the recession took hold is the uncertainty. What are Ms Byrne-Nason's views on further fall-out?

Ms Geraldine Byrne-Nason

I will respond in the order of those who asked questions. Senator Burke raised an important question regarding the United Kingdom and whether the result last week represents a watering down, an opt-out or isolation. Senator Healy Eames referred to the same question earlier also. I must rely on what the United Kingdom Government has said about its situation. What the United Kingdom did last week was to decide not to participate in a specific arrangement and agreement that came about as the result of last week's meeting. Apart from that one decision, the United Kingdom is a fully fledged, active member of the European Union. The UK Prime Minister, Mr. Cameron said in the UK Parliament this week that this does not mean in any way that the United Kingdom has turned its back on the Union and he worked hard in his statements to make that clear. We certainly, not just in our bilateral relationship per se, but in our relationship at the European table, continue to work with the United Kingdom in that context. Therefore, I would not say it is a watering down or opting out, but a decision made by one member state not to participate in a specific arrangement. I accept it is a significant decision, but from an Irish point of view, we will continue to work in all of the important areas that matter to us across the range of EU business with the United Kingdom.

Senator Burke also raised the interesting point that the speed at which we do business in Europe has now gone up several notches. That is clear. I am not sure if historically I am correct in saying it, but if this agreement were to be negotiated and signed up in March, that would be a record. It is also clear that the complexity of the issues being dealt with in such a short timeframe are also an indicator that the level of responsiveness to very serious issues in a crisis environment has changed.

Senator Burke asked if this tests our own system. Frankly, it does. I can reassure him that at an official level, it is testing capacity and speed of response. The Government probably made a prescient decision before this part of the negotiation by uniting all of the resources for EU affairs in the Department of the Taoiseach, so that they are now under the direction of the Taoiseach, the Tánaiste and the Minister of State for European affairs out of the Department of the Taoiseach. Uniting the administrative side of business allows us to have a slight advantage in the speed of response. We now have a more policy coherent approach from the centre of the Government, which lends itself to the new way of doing business.

We see increasingly that the business of the European Union, which was always built up through the sectoral councils, is now reaching the centre at the European Council more quickly and more frequently. The Heads of State and Government are agreeing to meet more frequently, so that has developed a response in the system in Ireland. We need to be able to meet that political requirement, and so we are trying to match it. It is a qualitative difference in the way in which government is being delivered in terms of the support for the European Union.

Deputy Keaveney spoke about the importance of getting the message right in Europe. As an official, I cannot claim to be in a role where I am pivotally involved in delivering the message. That is a political function but from where I sit, I can say that it has never been such an important task. In the past, Governments have found various instruments for doing that and I was involved in the Forum on Europe, but individual political groups, political parties and the Government itself, through its own Ministers, have a critical role to play. We may have a more informed population but that does not mean that the challenge of getting the message right is not very important. I understand very much what the Deputy was saying.

Deputy Durkan made some wise remarks, which we will note, about the quality of the agreement, the supervisory role that we are now examining as part of how we do business in Europe, and the balance in terms of subsidiarity and sovereignty. Senator Healy Eames asked whether there was an opportunity for Ireland in financial services. I believe there is an opportunity for Ireland but I do not see it as being separate from what we are doing in this arrangement. The important economic opportunity remains in the discussions that we have made at EU-27 level. Ireland and the UK have much common interest in that context and nothing that happened last week has fundamentally changed this. We will continue to work to understand better what exactly the UK had in mind in the course of its proposals last week but much of what we have already heard is indeed on the table in the context of the financial supervision regulatory negotiations, where we have already expressed our views and will continue to do so. At official level, every opportunity is definitely being availed of.

Senator Healy Eames also stated that we could consider what happened last week in respect of the UK as being regarded as a reinforcement of a nationalistic approach, because one country of the 27 has fallen out. The nature of the discussion on this specific arrangement stems from the fact that we are already dealing with a group of countries, rather than just the 27 as a whole. This was properly the business of the Heads of State and Government in the eurozone, so to some extent we are 17 rather than 27. We have other examples in the Union, such as Schengen, and we may soon have a patent arrangement where the "family" is not quite whole. A variable geometry exists. I am not necessarily saying that we advocated in this area, but if we wanted to dramatise some of what we have been doing in the past few days, it is very disappointing that the UK is not there.

The Senator also asked if others will drop out. It is too early for me to speak about that, but it is certainly clear that a number of member states had to say - this was in the conclusions of the Council - that they need to report back to their parliaments before they can take a decision. We do not have a signed-up list of 26. We know that 26 states aspire to be there. Whether or not that will prove possible for member states is another matter, but we are clear that the UK is not starting out from the same place. We are living with the variable geometry model in other contexts but it is disappointing that this is where ended up last week.

Vice Chairman

I have a couple of questions myself. I have been hearing a lot of conversation recently about the concept of tracking structural deficits. What baffles me when I hear that is the fact that very few people have a clue what the structural deficit is. If we know this year what our structural deficit will be in three years' time, we will be doing very well. We all know what our gross deficit is. The structural deficit is what is there when we strip out the effects of where we stand in the economic cycle. That is completely a matter for judgment. I have heard that the way of doing this is to entrust it to the European Commission, to EUROSTAT or an organisation like that, but it could take them a year to understand what it is, and we are talking about potentially placing this concept in the constitutions or at least in the national law of the member states. We need to tread very carefully when figuring out how we are going to do that, so that we do not end up entrusting ambiguity in the middle of national laws.

My next point is about the degree of ex ante supervision to which the witness referred. What exactly will be supervised? Will it include the level of debt that member state countries could incur as a result of the national budgets? Or will it be decisions such as how much money a country spends on schools versus how much they spend on health, and what level do they tax at? Clarifying that is a very important distinction that we should look to make in the coming months.

Senator Leyden made a point about the financial transaction tax, and a number of colleagues have touched upon it. The witness said that the only way we would like to see this progress is on a global level. That will be the case for every country as well. We have all spoken about the City of London, but Germany, France and other countries have major banks that are either global players or aspire to be global players. They will not want to pay a tax that JP Morgan or Goldman Sachs are not paying. Is that not a part of the discussion that will feature prominently? Commerzbank will not want to pay tax if its competitor in Japan is not also paying it.

Ms Geraldine Byrne-Nason

I will take the questions in reverse. Since you raised the FTT again, I feel obliged to say that it is not part of this agreement.

Vice Chairman

I understand. It is part of the discussion here at home.

Ms Geraldine Byrne-Nason

Exactly. It is part of the broader range of issues being discussed. The Vice Chairman's point describes, in a way, the Irish approach to this; it is something that must be considered at a global level. We want every other member state to consider it with regard to its own global competitive interest, because that is how Ireland is considering it. I note this point and repeat that although it is not on the table at the moment, members are reflecting the approach the Irish Government has adopted in the debates.

On the issue of ex ante supervision, the question was essentially about the level of intrusiveness. This was not detailed in the result of the political discussions last week. I note the Vice Chairman said it was something we needed to be extremely careful about as we go forward, and I can guarantee that is the case. At the moment, the discussion has not reached a point at which the concept would involve digging down into the structural elements of a member state’s budget; it is more at the broader macro level in terms of levels of debt and ensuring a country is on the right track, if I may put it like that, while leaving with member states, properly, their sovereign rights to allocate their own resources and structure their economies in keeping with national considerations. The level of intrusiveness is a live issue in terms of how we go into the negotiation.

Finally, with regard to the nature of the surveillance and the references to structural deficits, there have been some interesting political debates in the past couple of days, even in our own Dáil, about the figure given in the conclusion - 0.5% - and the important issue raised by the Vice Chairman of the definition of a structural deficit. The language in the conclusion by the Heads of State and Government - which, I emphasise, is purely a political conclusion; the actual legal, economic and technical work remains to be done - leaves some ambiguity and also some flexibility in terms of its interpretation. It refers to the notion of "as a rule", leaving open the possibility that there are not only different definitions of structural deficit, as the Vice Chairman points out, but also different models that may apply in countries' specific circumstances.

Ireland, as a small, open economy, may view this in a different way from some of the larger European economies. It is unlikely that the definition of structural deficit would apply to all countries in a one-size-fits-all way. There may be countries that would have to run structural surpluses, given implicit liabilities such as - to give one example - aging populations. As the Vice Chairman has pointed out, it is a complex issue, but if these provisions are to be embedded in law, we will have to have a clear understanding of the definition, so his point is well made and understood.

Ms Byrne-Nason has dealt with the issue of the UK comprehensively, but I would like to ask one more question. Does she think the position adopted by the UK is written in stone, or will there be any change of mind with the aim of compromising? She may not be able to comment on that. We all seem to have come to the conclusion that its decision is written in stone and that there is no going back, but in my experience of working with people from the UK at European level, they are very pro-European. I am sure there are many people in the British Government who are also pro-European but do not want to give that impression publicly. What is Ms Byrne-Nason's view?

Ms Geraldine Byrne-Nason

That is a difficult question for me to answer. It is public knowledge that we have been working intensively at political and official level with our British colleagues discussing the steps forward since last week. What I can say is that our UK colleagues remain constructive and active players in the discussions. I would not expect them to be completely outside the broad parameters of the discussions that now begin as the treaty is negotiated. They will be keeping, as we and all other member states will be, a very close eye on how these negotiations evolve. We will remain an open and constructive interlocutor for our UK colleagues. Senator Burke said he had experience on the ground. Once negotiations get under way and all member states begin to sit around the table for discussions, I am sure the United Kingdom will have important ideas. Whether that will represent a change in position I simply cannot say. The UK has clearly not left the family, as Senator Healy Eames described it earlier; it remains at the table as a member of the 27, and fundamentally, I expect constructive and active participation to be a feature as we go forward.

Vice Chairman

I will draw this part of our meeting to a close. I thank Ms Byrne-Nason for her contribution, which has been very helpful for us all. I wish her and her team the very best of luck in the vital work they have ahead.

We will suspend until 11.30 a.m., when we have a panel of guests who were held over from our last meeting. I would be grateful if members could stay for that.

Sitting suspended at 11.15 a.m. and resumed at 11.35 a.m.
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