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Joint Committee on European Union Affairs debate -
Wednesday, 28 Mar 2018

Engagement on the Future of Europe (Resumed): IBEC

I welcome Dr. Pat Ivory to the meeting. Dr. Ivory presented to us a while back about the future of Europe and promised to return when IBEC had finalised its position and thinking on the issue. We are glad to have him back here today with his associates. Before we begin with Dr. Ivory's opening statement, I have to remind everybody of the rules of privilege in this Parliament.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person or body outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the joint committee. However, if they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

I ask Dr. Ivory to make his opening statement.

Dr. Pat Ivory

I thank the Chairman and members. The debate on the future of the EU 27 has gathered significant momentum since the Commission published a White Paper on the future of Europe a little over a year ago. The position of Ireland and Irish business in this debate is critical, particularly given current and upcoming challenges posed by Brexit. I welcome the opportunity to meet with the committee again to present IBEC's document, "Ireland in the EU: A dynamic future", which sets out the priorities of Irish business for the future of Europe. IBEC launched this document in Brussels last week at a joint IBEC-EPP event in the European Parliament, hosted by Sean Kelly, MEP. The event, with over 300 guests, was addressed by some of the EU's most influential figures, including: Antonio Tajani, President of the European Parliament; Jyrki Katainen, European Commission Vice-President for Jobs, Growth, Investment and Competitiveness; Phil Hogan, European Commissioner for Agriculture and Rural Development; and Michel Barnier, the EU's chief negotiator for Brexit. Mr. Julian King, European Commissioner for the Security Union and former British ambassador to Ireland, also attended the event. IBEC is the only Irish business group with such reach and influence and Michel Barnier restated his deep commitment to working with us to reach the best possible outcome in the Brexit negotiations. Following the event, IBEC had a series of meetings with the Irish Permanent Representation to the EU and the European Commission, including with officials responsible for engagement with Ireland under the European semester process.

IBEC has been closely monitoring the debate on the future of Europe as it unfolded over the last year in Brussels and across EU capitals. We carefully analysed the Commission's White Paper and subsequent reflection papers. I was pleased to address this committee following President Juncker's state of the EU speech last September to outline our initial thoughts. Since then, IBEC has met with the Minister of State with responsibility for European affairs, Deputy Helen McEntee, and her senior officials on several occasions to discuss Brexit and the future of Europe. We took note of the Taoiseach's address at European Parliament plenary in Strasbourg where he was the first EU Head of State to outline his Government's position on the future of the European project. Throughout this process, IBEC has been in constant touch with our members, ensuring that Irish businesses are up-to-date on the future of Europe debate and, indeed, that they recognise the value of contributing to this crucial debate at such an important juncture in the EU's history. We truly believe that this is an opportunity to shape the future of the EU, which has a profound effect on our entrepreneurs and consumers alike, the way we do business, and the way we, as both Irish and EU citizens, live our lives. A key issue will be to identify how, together, we can all work to achieve shared objectives.

The paper that I present to the committee today encapsulates the carefully considered views of IBEC members from SMEs to multinational corporations and across all sectors of Irish business and industry. The resounding view of our members is that membership of the EU, both today and in the future, is of huge importance both for their individual businesses but also for the Irish economy. One key message of our paper is that the EU is not broken. Despite all its challenges, the EU remains a model of global success. Now is not the time for a major change in direction and now is not the time to be distracted by a protracted debate about the constitutional architecture of Europe. Instead, we must use the institutions we have to effectively deliver a better, more prosperous future for all our citizens.

In this context, the EU must continue to focus on positive reform. We need greater cooperation in areas where there is a clear collective benefit and where the EU can deliver added value. That also means less integration in areas where member states are best placed to act and to tailor policy to different country needs. To be more precise, the major underpinning of our report is that all EU policy should be carried out with a few core principles at its heart. First, all EU legislation should be crafted with reference to the innovation principle. Innovation underpins the success and prosperity of the EU, especially the Single Market. We believe that all EU policy should be designed with the innovation principle at its core, meaning that whenever policy is developed, the impact on innovation is fully assessed. The principle should be applied by EU policymakers and legislators to ensure that any new policies and laws help to foster and facilitate innovation rather than hamper it. For Europe to lead the world in science, technology, design, medical advancements, etc., we need to ensure the Union provides a suitable environment for the development of new ideas which bring economic and societal benefits. The innovation principle should therefore ensure that new ideas are stimulated, not stifled in the EU.

The second area we emphasise involves the principles of subsidiarity and proportionality, which are key tenets of the EU treaties. IBEC believes these principles should continue to be championed by EU policymakers into the future. The distribution of legislative responsibility between the member states and the EU is a critical issue for Irish business and our partners across Europe. We want the EU to act only in those areas where it has a proven value-add and to refrain from legislating in those areas which are matters of member state competence. In this regard, we welcome President Juncker's recent initiative to establish a task force on subsidiarity and proportionality and encourage this task force to engage with business to fully understand the potential impact of regulation on economic growth. The future EU should continue to fully respect member state sovereignty and intervene only in the areas where the EU brings added value. The principles I have just mentioned should be seen as a common thread which is woven through policy cycles of all EU-led initiatives.

Further to these core principles, our report outlines six areas of priority, or guiding principles, which we have the identified as areas where the EU can add real value. While those priorities are outlined in greater detail in the report, I enumerate the six as follows to provide the committee with a flavour of what is involved.

First is an EU that unleashes the potential of the Single Market and digitalisation. We want the EU institutions to build on what has already been achieved and complete the Single Market and digital Single Market. This is also true for the capital markets union, the banking union and the economic and monetary union. Completion of these big wins will allow for economic growth, job creation and a rise in living standards for our citizens. Second is an EU that leads the world in trade and investment. Ireland is the perfect example of how globalisation can bolster an economy. We have benefitted hugely from having an open approach to international trade, become a leading exporter, and benefit from multinational investment in a wide range of sectors in a relatively short period of time. The EU should continue with this open approach, building international partnership with strategic investors, pursuing ambitious free trade agreement in a balance manner. This includes ensuring trade in services is a top priority when it comes to free trade agreements. It also means that a new trading relationship with the UK should be as close as possible to current situation.

Third is a dynamic EU that embraces a competitive taxation policy. The EU must respect member state sovereignty when it comes to decision-making on all taxation matters. A competitive taxation policy will ensure that member states have the tools to keep their economies innovative and competitive. Supply chains, business operations and transactions are now global and increasingly Internet-based. Any change to current taxation arrangements should be carried out at a multilateral level to mirror this, such as through the OECD's BEPS project.

Fourth is an EU that respects member state competency to design labour market and social policy. Having too much labour and social policy catered for at an EU level will leave citizens feeling disenfranchised and isolated from policymakers.

The EU should continue to ensure that member states have autonomy in designing bespoke labour market and social policy which can best consider nuances in societal culture, local labour market realities, demographics and citizens’ needs.

Fifth is an EU that champions better regulation. Poorly designed policy, legislation and regulation add to the cost of doing business and are obstacles to job creation, growth and prosperity. This can be remedied through the Commission’s continued commitment to the better regulation agenda, promoting better and more effective legislation across the EU institutions. We are asking that the EU institutions continue to use platforms such as the REFIT programme to ensure that regulation is designed in a way which is growth enabling and does not infringe upon competitiveness in the EU economy.

Finally, the sixth priority should be an EU that ensures fiscal rules are in tune with all member states. The individuality of member states’ needs should be considered at European level. Each state has a diverse and nuanced set of requirements which should be considered by EU policymakers. We want to see a robust, rules-based approach to spending but capital investment projects should be treated significantly more favourably. This is of particular import in the current Irish context. Ireland needs to invest more now in essential infrastructure to ensure we are well equipped to face current and future challenges in vital areas such as housing and transport. The EU’s policies should reflect this.

Of course, how the EU divides its finances is ultimately the best indication of where its priorities lie. An essential element of our future of Europe paper is IBEC's positioning on the next multi-annual financial framework, MFF, of the EU, on which the Commission will publish its first proposal in May for the post-2020 period. IBEC has three key priorities for the MFF post 2020. The MFF post 2020 should be big on big things and small on small things and dedicate money only in areas in which the EU has real value and can achieve tangible results. IBEC believes that the EU should increase funding in research and innovation. The EU needs to be a global leader when it comes to spending on research, development and innovation. Currently, we are lagging behind our international competitors when it comes to research intensity, spending only 2% of GDP on research and innovation compared with 3.6% in Japan and 2.7% in the USA. This needs to change if we are to maintain global competitiveness and lead the way in new technologies. Spending on research and innovation must be bolstered in the MFF post 2020. We also need to uphold current commitments to the Common Agricultural Policy, CAP, and other areas of traditional spending which have a proven added value. The EU must not underestimate the importance of spending in these traditional areas. In the Irish context, continued commitment to the CAP is essential not only to ensure the quality of the produce which is essential to our food and drink sector, but also in protecting our rural communities and bridging the urban-rural divide. Of course, a major challenge to the MFF post 2020 will be the significant drop in contributions once the UK exits from the Union. How this shortfall is made up is ultimately a political decision but we are asking that the EU pays close attention to the three aforementioned priorities.

It would be impossible to speak about the future of the EU without mentioning Brexit. Indeed, the departure of the UK from the EU presents an unprecedented and profoundly unwelcome challenge to the Europe we know but we also believe that the UK will continue to be a vital partner in our future relationship with the EU. In that context, I wanted to restate IBEC’s priorities for Brexit. First, it wants a smooth exit, and not a cliff edge. Second, comprehensive transitional arrangements should be in place. We welcome the progress that was made at last week's European Council in this regard. Third, IBEC wants the closest possible relationship with the UK in the future. There is much detail to be worked out to achieve this. Finally, unique Irish challenges must be addressed, such as the Border issue between the North and South.

This year marks 45 years of Ireland’s membership of the EU. Since joining in 1973, our economy and society have experienced many challenges and faced many hurdles. Ultimately however, EU membership has helped Ireland build an open and resilient economy. Irish businesses enjoy unfettered access to the world’s largest single market. Irish citizens can work and live freely in any other EU member state and Irish companies can employ talented people from across the EU. Trading in the EU bloc has also helped Irish companies avail of market access opportunities in previously untapped global markets. Irish farmers have benefited from CAP funding, which in turn has supported the development of a world-class food and drink sector. Being part of the EU has also helped Ireland become the dynamic innovative economy that it is today in areas such as biopharmaceuticals, medical technology and services, particularly computer services. Irish business remains committed to the EU project and we are proud to help shape the conversation as to how the EU will continue to grow and develop into the future.

I thank the members here for their work on this important committee and I look forward to engaging with them further as the debate on the future of Europe continues to mature throughout the coming weeks and months and into the new legislature of the European institutions.

Before I open the floor to Senator Leyden, I want to say that we are sorry for Dr. Ivory's injury and that we hope that he will make a quick recovery from it. It was a nasty incident indeed.

I welcome the witnesses. IBEC is a very dynamic organisation, and many former members and employees are playing a very important role in European affairs at the moment. It is a great training ground for people.

This document, Ireland in the EU: A Dynamic Future - The Priorities of Irish Business for the Future of Europe, is very well presented. It is very easy to read and is a great document for people who are involved in negotiations, including the Government. It serves as a handbook of the facts and outlines the benefits of Ireland's membership of the European Union for the past 45 years.

There is no point in further regretting what is happening with the UK but I am confident that there will be an agreement at the end of the day that will benefit North and South. It is absolutely in our interests, as we all know, and there is a great deal of goodwill towards us from the other 26 member states of the European Union. This committee, through our Chairman and our secretariat, have a very active role in relation to the Conference of Parliamentary Committees for Union Affairs of Parliaments of the European Union, COSAC. We are meeting Georgians later today, and our Chairman is meeting another ambassador as well. We have very close relations and friendships with them and regularly have negotiations and discussions. Our committee has just returned from a meeting in London. We attended from Sunday until last night. We met Members of the UK Parliament and Members of the House of Lords. That is the kind of work that is being done here regularly. In politics, relations are vital and direct one-to-one contact, not just phone contact, is essential.

I am interested in the finding that 90% of IBEC members believe that future membership of the European Union will be important for their businesses. That is a fact. Some 65% of others also feel that way. A very high percentage of people in business realise the benefit of access to that market of 475 million people once the UK leaves.

The only other problem that arises is the potential for a trade war. That has been averted so far.

As the witnesses know, negotiations between the United States of America and China are under way and they will have serious repercussions for those regions. This may, in turn, have a knock-on effect. A trade war would be damaging to the whole world. It is a case of back to the future. The United States of America has a very open economy and it has been a most successful economy. Perhaps it has not kept up pace in certain respects - for example, the changes in the field of competition. Nevertheless, IBEC is probably monitoring this situation and international news relating to it very carefully. The first concern was that there could be a tariffs on alcohol - bourbon and other American drinks - and that this would have repercussions for the Irish drinks industry. That would be a most regrettable situation so everything that can be done to avert it must be done.

It is very important IBEC has an office in Brussels and links all over Ireland and into Brussels, the most important place. IBEC could mount a most successful seminar, meeting all the key players. The witnesses should have no doubt about the impact such events have on the decision makers. Irrespective of meetings with the Government, Ministers, Deputies, Senators and so on, having a non-governmental agency such as IBEC there representing industry is vital.

I say "Well done" to Dr. Ivory on his presentation. There is an ongoing discussion regarding the issues raised. IBEC has published this document already, but the presenting of it today - and the witnesses' presence has been recorded all over the House - is a very good step in the right direction. I thank the witnesses for attending. I have no real questions because all the answers are in this document in a very comprehensive way. I welcome the witnesses and urge them to continue their excellent work on behalf of the State.

Deputy Durkan, could we have a brief-----

I am not known for my brevity but I will do my best. Like Senator Leyden, I welcome Dr. Ivory and his colleagues to the meeting and compliment IBEC on the continuously and consistently positive role it has played in the commercial life of this country and in its relations with other European and non-European countries. IBEC continues this role, which is a theme that runs through this report. I take this opportunity to compliment IBEC and the business sector for the ability they have shown to identify the issues, never to be negative and to put forward suggestions in a way that makes it possible for them to be accepted by others. I wish to go quickly through the positive reforms to which we will all contribute and the need to recognise the needs of individual member states. The only downside of this is that if we resort to the individual preferences of all member states, it will be very difficult to find a consensus. I emphasise that in those areas there is a tendency for member states - and the people within member states - to adopt a them-and-us attitude and, instead of taking ownership of the European project, to stand offside and consider Europe as if it is something they should criticise from without as opposed to reforming it positively, like IBEC does, from within.

I have similar concerns about the common consolidated corporate tax base, CCCTB. I hope it is not the thin end of the wedge to target individual member states, particularly smaller ones like Ireland. I am concerned that, for example, an area that is recognised as the total preserve of the individual member state has now been dragged into the area of competition and state aid and is being examined by other EU Commissioners. We know there is a report pending which will have an impact in respect of the so-called Apple tax. Unfortunately, there seems to be a jealousy of the 12.5% corporation profits tax this country has enjoyed and promoted recently - indeed, promoted for other countries. We do not wish to restrict it to ourselves. This is very important because the smaller countries have difficulty enough competing with their bigger brothers. In the old days, the bilateral trade agreements always benefited the bigger countries. That was the way it was. A certain well-known global politician some time ago said it is a good deal when his country wins. That does not augur so well for the trade negotiations which we hope will be positive.

Dr. Ivory's comments on the MFF are correct. We need to keep the pillars in place that have worked well and on which we depend and not to allow ourselves to be hustled by those who might suggest to us that it is not democratic or that it does not give us all the same chance. Each individual member state across Europe has different requirements and that is as it should be because they are in different geographic locations. For example, it is not so easy for us to get through the centre of Europe without taking an aircraft or a ship. Most other European countries, with the exception of the one that is now leaving, do not have this problem at all. It is of huge economic benefit to be able to sit into a truck and drive where one wants to drive to, even outside the Union if necessary, to Moscow and so on. We cannot do that. We should never allow it to be underestimated that we are an island nation which, it appears, will be located off the coast of another island that will no longer be a member of the European Union.

The final point I wish to make concerns Brexit. I compliment IBEC's comments on this and references to it in the report. I believe that the Irish economy has the resilience, the ability and the stability to meet the challenges ahead. There are challenges ahead but I believe we can meet them. We must be cautious and careful not to take steps which might damage our competitiveness and our access to the European markets and might bring us back to a greater dependability on our next-door neighbour, notwithstanding the good relation we have with it and the need to keep that good relationship in the future. It is of equal importance that the European Union has a relationship with the UK after Brexit that is such that it will benefit both. If it does not, the European Union is at stake and will disappear. If a country leaves the Union and benefits trade-wise as a result, no country worth its salt will want to remain behind so we will all be in trouble then.

The point I am trying to make is simply that there is a lot at stake but I believe we will survive and believe that the island, North and South, which IBEC has emphasised time and again, is important. There is a tendency to believe that by some kind of shuffle this will disappear in the latter stages. It will not, nor could it, nor should it. This island has benefited greatly from the peace it has enjoyed over the past 20 years or so. It will benefit greatly in the future from the continuation of that peace. There are those who might see an advantage for a time to draw lines not in the sand but critical lines that would impede the trade and commerce taking place now and which will continue in the future. That would be a very dangerous and retrograde step. In that context, we must always keep in mind where we came from. What we have now is immeasurably better, regarding both Europe and the North-South relationship in this country, and we should strive to keep it, improve it, develop it and encourage its evolution because the alternatives, from what we have seen, are not great.

Does Dr. Ivory wish to make any concluding remarks?

Dr. Pat Ivory

Yes. I wish to respond. I thank the members for the very gracious comments they made about IBEC's work and our document. We focus not only on the policy coherence and the evidence-based recommendations we make but also on communicating those in the most effective manner to have the greatest impact on behalf of Irish business, particularly at a European level.

There has been a very good response to our communication documents and the evidence we put forward in the policy recommendations. I thank the Deputy for his very gracious comments.

We continue to have grave concerns about the CCCTB proposal and the action taken by the Commission in this area. The proposal has been talked about for many years at European level. We expressed our concerns vocally in our meetings with the European Commission last week and other fora and continue to work on the issue with our strategic business partners at a European level. I agree with Deputy Bernard J. Durkan that our concerns are shared by other smaller member states which also believe these initiatives are to the disadvantage of member states with small domestic economies and to the advantage of member states with much larger populations and domestic markets. We continue to voice our concerns in Brussels about the development of these proposals and our objections to their adoption in their current format.

One of the key aspects of our report which I have mentioned is that taxation matters should be determined at member state level in the context of member state sovereignty. In that regard, we are also very concerned not only about the proposal on digital taxation but also its timing. As Senator Terry Leyden mentioned, relations between the European Union and the United States are very delicate. In that context, we have grave concerns about the proposal on digital taxation which was issued last week by the European Commission. In conjunction with our business partners in Europe, we have made very clear our view that issues such as digital taxation should be dealt with at a multilateral level through the OECD which has been proved, through the BEPS process, to deliver results. That is where we believe these conversations and actions should take place. We are very concerned that the European Union might consider taking unilateral action before that conversation has been completed at the OECD. We believe it is worth giving proper consideration to these issues. We recognise that the world is changing, that digitalisation is a feature of all economies and that these issues must be considered. We need to come to a better understanding of them and IBEC is working with its partners in the business and industry advisory committee at the OECD to try to do that. We are working to arrive at a better understanding of digitalisation and how technology, global supply chains and digital trade work. We will be travelling to Paris in April for some detailed meetings with the OECD in that regard.

Senator Terry Leyden made reference to the potential for a trade war between the European Union and the United States, something about which we are very concerned. IBEC has made submissions on it, as have our sector associations which are very concerned about any list of retaliatory products being drawn up by the European Commission. Senator Terry Leyden specifically mentioned bourbon but exports of Irish and European whiskey to the United States exceed, by a factor of five, European imports of bourbon from the United States. We believe it would be a very high risk strategy to get involved in a tit for tat trade war. We have spoken directly to the Commission about this. I have also spoken to the officials who are putting the list together. IBEC and its sector groups have made formal submissions to the Commission and have raised the issue at our meetings with it. The week before last our CEO, Mr. Danny McCoy, and the executive director team of IBEC travelled to the United States for a series of meetings with strategic business partners, including the US Chamber of Commerce. We also had a meeting with the Taoiseach when he was in Washington. IBEC had meetings with the US Department of Commerce and the Unites States trade representative, USTR, to emphasise our particular concerns about the direction of US trade policy and to reaffirm our long-term commitment to having a strong relationship between Ireland and the USA, as well as a strong relationship between the European Union and the USA. We have been encouraging our strategic business partners in the United States and the officials of the Administration whom we meet to try to ensure the United States will continue to take a leadership role in seeking to have open trade and investment across the world. This is an area in which we will continue to work. When our CEO met Mr. Wilbur Ross in the Department of Commerce, he made these very points to him and his officials. We are pleased that a decision has been made to temporarily exempt the European Union from the measures President Trump and the White House have introduced or are about to introduce. However, we believe the temporary nature of the exemption means that there is still significant work to be done. We will be working closely with our colleagues at European level, as well as the European Commission, on this issue. We will also be working with our contacts in the US Administration in Washington and New York.

The Irish Commissioner, Mr. Phil Hogan, who holds the agriculture portfolio has had discussions on this issue to ensure a whiskey trade war will not happen. Pernod Ricard, the French company, owns the Jameson brand and Irish Distillers. In that context, it is very important that the IBEC equivalent in France come on board through its network. I launched the Jameson brand in Japan on behalf of Pernod Ricard. Its growth - it is just one of many products owned by Pernod Ricard - has been massive in the United States. Exports from Europe of Jameson whisky are among the fastest growing. In that context, a trade war would have a very dramatic effect.

Dr. Pat Ivory

That is absolutely true. I assure the Senator that we are working closely with MEDEF, our French counterpart, to ensure everything possible will be done. We have also made direct contact with the Commissioner, Mr. Hogan, his head of Cabinet, Mr. Peter Power, and other officials to make sure they fully understand our particular concerns. We have found Mr. Hogan and his team to be very receptive. The work being done there is positive. We have also made our views clear to the European Commissioner for Trade, Ms Malström, and her team.

I have heard good reports on IBEC's work in Brussels.

I thank Dr. Ivory, Ms Doreen Burke and Mr. Hugo Gallagher for their time. We appreciate IBEC's continued engagement with the committee which is very useful.

The joint committee went into private session at 3.20 p.m. and adjourned at 3.40 p.m. until 2 p.m. on Wednesday, 25 April 2018.
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