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Joint Committee on European Union Affairs debate -
Wednesday, 12 Oct 2022

EU Expansion: Discussion

Apologies have been received from the Chair of the committee, Deputy Joe McHugh, and from Deputy Brendan Howlin and Senators Lisa Chambers, Sharon Keogan and Vincent P. Martin.

On behalf of the committee, I welcome H.E. Mr. Qirjako Qirko, the ambassador of Albania, and H.E. Mr. Vanja Filipovic, the ambassador of Bosnia and Herzegovina. I apologise for the pronunciation. I am sure I was disastrous. I find people have difficulty pronouncing my name as well, so they will be able to return the favour. Both ambassadors are based in London as they are also ambassadors to Britain. I thank them for travelling specifically for this engagement. We will discuss with our guests today the topic of EU enlargement and the western Balkans.

Before we begin, I will read a note on privilege and some housekeeping matters. All witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him or her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if the witnesses' statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

Again, the ambassadors are very welcome and we will get this meeting under way. I call on H.E. Mr. Qirko to make his opening statement.

H.E. Mr. Qirjako Qirko

Good morning. I am honoured and privileged to be here today. I would like to express the gratitude of my President, my Government and my Parliament to all political parties in Ireland for the continuous and unconditional support this country, this Parliament and this Government is giving to the ambitions and to our dream to one day join the European Union. I repeat that, from the beginning of this process, Ireland has been the country which has unconditionally supported our ambition to join the European Union.

I would like to say a few words about the situation in the western Balkans. The Balkans are known for being problematic and, historically, there have been problems in the relations between countries, in particular with the dissolution of the former Yugoslavia, the last war in Europe before the Ukraine war. In the past 20 years, however, there has been new development. The so-called Berlin process has helped and assisted countries to join together and to seek common interests. I would like to give an example. Traditionally and historically, the relationship between Albania and Serbia has not been very good, and for 64 years we did not have any exchange of visits between the leaders of our two countries. However, last year, even in the framework of the Covid restrictions, the leaders of the western Balkans, including the leaders of Albania and Serbia, have met each other ten times. We are in discussions to prepare ourselves so that, one day, we can join the European Union. At present, Albania, Serbia and North Macedonia are part of what is called the Open Balkan process. We believe that, through this process, we will prepare ourselves in the model of the Benelux countries, and we hope that other countries of the western Balkans will soon join this initiative.

In the meantime, Albania is trying its best to do its homework. Four years ago, we started a big reform of the judiciary. Referring to the different pools, the judicial system was the most corrupted at that time. With the assistance of the European Union, we undertook a huge constitutional reform. A commission has been set up to check the wealth of magistrates and, after four years of this process, more than 50% of the magistrates have not passed this vetting. The first step is that we have kicked them out from the judicial system and the next step is that there will be an investigation against them about their unjustified wealth.

It has been explained to me that I have five minutes for a short presentation and that I should then be ready for any questions.

We can allow some leeway so I would not worry about that. Please continue.

H.E. Mr. Qirjako Qirko

As I mentioned, the European Union is our dream. From January of this year, Albania is a non-permanent member of the UN Security Council. We are working very closely together with our allies, specifically against Russian aggression against Ukraine. We have initiated three resolutions together with the UK and Ireland, which have joined the resolutions. We are glad that, for the first time, more than 154 countries supported these resolutions against the aggression, which is a huge achievement for all democratic countries. From 2008, Albania has also been a member of NATO. We are doing our best to fulfil our obligations in NATO and we are very active.

Historically, Albania has been an open door to everyone who is in need. From the time of the Ottoman Empire, Albanians have been ruled by their own laws. We were part of the Ottoman Empire for 500 years but we have been ruled by our own laws, which are called kanun. In this kanun, which is a kind of legislation adopted only by the Albanians, there is a specific institution called besa. What does besa mean? When I give besa to someone, and this person might be a foreigner or even an enemy, I will protect with my life his life and the life of his family. Because of that, for example, the number of Jewish people in Albania after the Second World War was ten times higher than it had been before the war, and the Jews were protected by the majority of the population, and the majority of the population are Muslim. We are now offering shelter and support to more than 2,000 Afghani people who left their country after the Taliban came to power.

We are also supporting more than 3,000 Mojahedin, the real opposition of Iran. Because of that protection that we are giving to the Mojahedin, the real opposition of Iran, in July my country was attacked and suffered a cyberattack initiated by Iran. Unfortunately, 95% of the services in my country operate through a mobile platform, e-Albania, and this system was shut down because of this intervention and cyberattack by four Iranian state companies. The Microsoft experts who we invited to investigate this case identified these four companies. In any case, it is a price that we are ready to pay because we think it is the right thing to do to protect people who are under attack from the Iranian regime.

In a few words, that is what I have to say in general about my country. I hope to be able to answer any questions.

Thank you. That is a sufficiently comprehensive introduction. When we move to questions and answers, we will see what other useful information we can find as we deal with the whole issue of accession. I call H.E. Mr. Vanja Filipovic to make his opening statement.

H.E. Mr. Vanja Filipovic

I thank the committee for the invitation to address it today. First, allow me to express sincere condolences at the tragic loss of life in County Donegal and to wish a speedy recovery to those who were injured. Also, let me express the gratitude for the active and supportive engagement of Ireland in the peace process in Bosnia and Herzegovina over the past decades, in the multilateral fora and in the contribution to peacekeeping missions in our country, as well as the strong support to our European integration efforts.

I am addressing the committee at a very peculiar moment for my country and the region. On 2 October, we held general elections in a peaceful manner.

As we await the election results for various levels of government, we can already say with certainty that our collective Head of State, the three-member Presidency of Bosnia and Herzegovina, will feature two members who come from civic, non-nationalist, multi-ethnic political parties. That is a first for our country and attests to the wish of the citizens of Bosnia and Herzegovina to vote in a truly democratic matter, across ethnic lines.

The elections have come after a period of increased political turbulence including attempts at a de facto secession of a part of our country; creation of entity institutions parallel to those at the state level; threats of a unilateral territorial recomposition that would produce a so-called third entity; attempts to withhold budgetary means to conduct the general elections; a political hold-up in appointments of judges to the state and entity constitutional courts, etc. All this was followed or, indeed, supported by divisive rhetoric from leading public figures that has bordered frequently on hate speech. Some of these issues have been addressed, at least temporarily, by the calm institutional response of domestic agencies as well as increasingly robust activities of the international community, which still holds important instruments of oversight over the civilian and military implementation of the Dayton peace agreement.

The EU-led peacekeeping mission EUFOR-Althea was bolstered by additional troops and armour earlier this year, addressing the acute security threat in the announcement of the creation of parallel entity institutions, including entity armed forces and security and intelligence agencies. On the civilian side, former High Representative Valentin Inzko had imposed changes to the criminal law, making genocide denial and glorification of war criminals a criminal act. The current High Representative, Mr. Christian Schmidt, imposed adoption of a state budget, paving the way for general elections to take place earlier this month.

Our recent domestic challenges must be viewed, however, in a broader, regional and international context. Destructive domestic politics are but an echo of international designs and aspirations vis-à-vis Bosnia and Herzegovina that are rooted in the causes of the 1992-95 war. Such politics, which seek to divide our country or to exert complete influence over its governing, were dormant for a period when the broader international context was not receptive to them. That same period saw the greatest institutional achievements and progress in Bosnia and Herzegovina. The progress was so impressive that there were serious plans to close the Office of the High Representative and to draw down completely the international military presence. Unfortunately, such designs were severely premature, and the spectre of destructive, divisive politics returned with a vengeance. This stagnation created an opportunity for outside players - Russia, to be specific - to exert their malign influence to sow further instability in the region by stoking the nationalist flames and irredentist ideas, thus opening another crisis spot with which the West must contend. Their true designs were laid bare in an act of unprovoked and brutal aggression against Ukraine. It would be foolhardy to think they would shy away from opening another so-called hot conflict on European soil to advance their interests.

In such a challenging domestic and international environment it has become increasingly difficult for our country and, dare I say, the whole western Balkans region to progress on the EU path. The overall movement of the region has been slow, inconsistent and fraught with new challenges. This situation has had a doubly negative effect: a decreasing allure of EU membership to both citizens and politicians as well as an opening to alternative international offers of political, economic and military association and co-operation.

For Bosnia and Herzegovina, the EU Commission's avis from May 2019, containing 14 priority areas for reform, has been seen as the most important document since the signing of the Dayton peace agreement. It defined for a country a moment of political and historic crossroads. Our country has three options now.

The first option is for Bosnia and Herzegovina to pursue reforms in 14 key areas and measures not only to speed up its EU accession process but also to transform the society into a liberal democratic state of equal citizens protected by the rule of law. Implementation of the 14 priorities would set our country irreversibly on the European path and would ensure that each individual has equal rights and opportunities, regardless of his or her ethnicity, religion, race or other identity.

The second option is to keep the status quo. I believe that the committee is aware of the current situation, which can be best described as stagnating, frustrating and unbearable for ordinary people. It is unbearable because our institutions are kept dysfunctional and the citizens are subjected to rhetoric aimed at raising ethnic tensions. Divisive rhetoric serves to disguise incompetence and corruption leading to a massive exodus of young people. It is not surprising that such rhetoric only increased after the Commission's 14 priorities opinion in 2019. Certain political elements pay lip service to the EU-led reform agenda but actively work to subvert it, thus keeping the status quo. Russia has always been one of the most vociferous supporters of the status quo exactly because it preserved the so-called frozen conflict, acting as an international supporter of those domestic actors who wish for the same. Russia's brinkmanship in Bosnia and Herzegovina can be seen clearly at the UN Security Council, where yearly extension of the EUFOR-Althea mission is due next month. Russia may veto the extension unless it secures certain concessions. That must not be allowed. International military presence is an absolutely priority. In case of a Russian veto, there are already present legal arrangements for foreign troops to remain in Bosnia and Herzegovina under either a EUFOR or a NATO umbrella.

The third option for our country is to regress further, which could lead to renewed conflict. Whether that will happen will depend on whether our country will have continued with the institutional deepening of the ethnic divide, that is, whether ethnic divisions will be further enshrined in the constitutional and legal framework. The current framework is already dominated by an ethnocentric approach based on the concept of so-called constitutive peoples. It is a concept that continues to produce political strife and institutional dysfunctionality. It is also a discriminatory legal framework, as confirmed by several rulings of the European Court of Human Rights. Further deepening of ethnic divisions through the legal framework, especially with regard to election law, may temporarily satisfy a few political appetites threatening chaos but will provide for greater instability and dysfunctionality in the long term and will permanently close the EU door to our country.

I hope that Ireland and the EU will resist the siren song of providing more concessions to those seeking to extend the status quo through institutionalised ethnic sectarianism and will help Bosnia and Herzegovina transform into a vibrant democratic, pluralistic society that lives by the same norms and values as every EU member state. That is the only path to permanent peace, stability and prosperity for our country, region and broader EU neighbourhood.

Thank you, Mr. Filipovic, for your kind words regarding the tragedy in Creeslough, Donegal. Our Chair, Deputy McHugh, is from that part of the world, so it is obvious why he is not here. That is why he sent his apologies.

As I said, when we deal with the Balkans in general, we all know we sometimes put very simply what is quite a complicated history. In both witnesses' opening statements I think there is an element of hope but with major caveats and worries.

I now open the floor to our side. I ask Deputy Haughey to start with his questions.

I thank the ambassadors for taking the trouble to come to Dublin this morning. We really appreciate it. I assure them that our proceedings are being broadcast, so their contributions are being witnessed by many more people than are here this morning.

Ireland supports European Union enlargement as a general principle, as was said. We believe in enlargement. When we joined the EU, in 1973, it was transformative for our country. We have not looked back since and we do not want to pull up the ladder and let nobody else in. We think it is good for the EU and would be good for the witnesses' nation states to be in the EU. The witnesses outlined some of the histories of their countries. As the Chairman said, they are complicated and long histories and are why the countries are where they are today. Enlargement, as regards the western Balkans, would be so important from a strategic point of view as well as from the point of security and defence. I think the witnesses touched on that in their contributions.

As for President Macron's European Political Community, I assume that both witnesses' countries were represented at its meeting which took place last week. What are their thoughts on that forum and that initiative? Do they think it is a good initiative? Is it a further stepping stone to full EU membership, from their point of view? That is my first question.

My second question is about what assistance the EU has, in the ambassadors' opinion, given to their nation states to date, whether monetary or other types of assistance. I will have one or two more questions after the ambassadors reply.

H.E. Mr. Qirjako Qirko

I thank the Deputy for his question. My country supported President Macron's initiative. There has been a delay in the process of the integration of the western Balkans. There has been a concern in all countries of the western Balkans because we thought we had been left or even forgotten but this initiative makes us part of the discussion. Taking into consideration what is happening in Ukraine, being part of a family and being at the table is important. All western-oriented countries will talk and discuss the concerns of the moment. In principle, my Government supports this and the prime minister has been active in the process and was at the meeting on 6 October.

Has the EU given Albania financial assistance?

H.E. Mr. Qirjako Qirko

Always, from the beginning. In July, we started the accession negotiations, which was a new step forward. The support of the EU is much more important now. The amount of money is bigger than before.

H.E. Mr. Vanja Filipovic

As far as the new European Political Community goes, the Chairman of the Presidency of Bosnia and Herzegovina, Mr. Džaferovi, attended the meeting. I believe the results were encouraging. They showed that we need to think of new ways of holding discussions that are more appropriate for the challenges that we face as European nations, regardless of whether we are EU members, EU aspirants or outside the framework completely. Bosnia and Herzegovina appreciates the opportunity to participate and is encouraged by what took place. EU assistance to Bosnia and Herzegovina has been very generous. There has been much finance for various projects for everything from the reform of institutions and their functionality to infrastructural projects and various initiatives. We have benefited in many ways from the generous assistance. We look forward to continuing that type of co-operation. During the crisis with the floods in 2014 and during the Covid-19 outbreak, there was generous additional assistance to our country.

I have two more questions for the witnesses, if they do not mind. What is the support for membership of the EU among the citizens of their countries? Is there strong support for membership of the EU? Is it uniform across both countries? I suspect it is not, based on the different groups that make up their societies, particularly in Bosnia and Herzegovina. Will the witnesses address the support for EU accession? Will they go into more detail about the reforms that they are implementing? I know the Albanian ambassador mentioned the reform of the judiciary, which is significant. Will they address the reforms in each area covered by the Copenhagen criteria, how they are proceeding and how far the countries are from reaching and implementing those goals set by the EU?

H.E. Mr. Qirjako Qirko

In Albania, support for EU membership is at more than 95%. I do not know who the 5% who do not support it are. The polls show that that is the current level of support among the population. Regarding the reforms, the biggest reform in my country has been to fight corruption. The best way to fight corruption, considering the experience of EU countries, is to avoid any contact. In any tender or competition, such as in road construction, any company that would like to apply to bid must do everything through computers or mobile communications. There is no direct contact. Nobody knows what the offer is. The reaction has been very positive. As I mentioned, the judiciary has been the most corrupt institution. Around 60% of magistrates have not passed this specific vetting process. We are facing a problem in my country because some youngsters are leaving the country because of the opportunity they find in other countries.

We have many positive things. One is the education of the people. The standard of Albanian schools in general is very good, so it is easy for young people to be integrated in countries that they are trying to reach. With the reforms that my government is implementing, we think that they will come back soon. Tourism is one area that is developing fast. This year, the number of tourists who visited my country was 20% higher than in 2018, which was the best year that we had. Approximately 6 million tourists visited my country this year. There have been huge investments in this area.

H.E. Mr. Vanja Filipovic

Support for EU membership is fairly high in Bosnia and Herzegovina and crosses ethnic lines. It is a thing that everybody more or less agrees on. There is a high level of unanimity in that regard although trends show a slight decline over time, as people start to perceive EU membership as untenable or far away. We have not seen much movement over time. As I said in my opening statement, it has been beset by new problems and challenges, both domestically and internationally. That applies to the mood of the citizens with regard to membership.

Regarding reforms that we are undertaking, since the European Commission's avis in 2019, we have been tasked to work on 14 priority reform areas.

The latest progress report will, unfortunately, not show that we have moved forward much in a majority of those areas. As already stated, our institutions were blocked for long periods, whereas political parties used the option they have, guaranteed under the Dayton peace agreement, of simply not attending in good faith to the functioning of the Parliament, the state government, etc. That way, no progress could be made. That is one of the unfortunate effects of the Dayton peace agreement that allows this type of activity to go unimpeded for long periods of time, resulting in the stagnation of the reform agenda.

How do the witnesses explain the delay? Are there obstacles at European Council level to fast-tracking Albania and Bosnia and Herzegovina's applications? I know the witnesses will be diplomatic but I am trying to ask who is not supporting Albania and Bosnia and Herzegovina's applications at European Council level. If the witnesses do not want to answer that question directly, that is fine. Apart from what Albania and Bosnia and Herzegovina can do domestically in their reforms and so forth, is there a bigger agenda at European Council level which is negative as far as the applications of the two countries are concerned? I know the witnesses will answer that question diplomatically and as best they can.

H.E. Mr. Qirjako Qirko

We have to fulfil our obligations because we know that being a member of the European Union will take time. We have to prepare ourselves for the next steps. We have been continually reforming for more than 31 years in my country, and the aim is just that one day we will join the European Union. Now more than ever it is important to speed up the process because everyone who knows the history of the western Balkans knows the specific interests that the so called third parties, Russia and China, have in the region. Considering Russia specifically, it is in the Russian strategy to delay or avoid the membership of the western Balkan countries in NATO or the EU. That is why the right answer for the Russian ambitions in this region would be for the EU to accept the western Balkan countries as quickly as possible.

H.E. Mr. Vanja Filipovic

I can only echo what my colleague said; we have to meet the criteria. The goal for Bosnia and Herzegovina is not just to become a member but to reform itself into a functional, fully democratic and pluralistic society. The process is important, therefore, not just the end state, for our sake. Russia and its partners on the ground have been working hard to slow this down. Unfortunately, it has a large arsenal of tools at its disposal, including institutional tools within our legal and constitutional framework, to obstruct that process, reverting back to the Dayton peace agreement. We needed the peace agreement to stop the war but the Dayton constitution - and this has already been established by numerous rulings of the European Court of Human Rights - is not compatible with EU values. We have to reform it and get from the Dayton constitution era into the Brussels era. Political forces that enjoy power thanks to the status quo will keep resisting that and they have the support of Russia. The EU as a whole remains open, to a varying degree from country to country, but everybody agrees that the values and norms of the EU must be met, which is what we are trying to achieve. We require active assistance on that path.

Gabhaim buíochas leis na finnéithe. We are serious about Ireland's support for accession. We have all seen the benefits that the European Union has provided in this State, even in the positive role it has played in our peace process. We can all accept that in the changed world we are in the European Union, on some level, is the body that represents hope and democracy, while stating that it would still have its issues. If we also want the European Union to be a bastion for rights and democracy we also have to ensure - and this is down to domestic Governments - that we deal with the issues of poverty that we all have. When you can offer people a better life, you can then protect against what people might term as the sort of politics that is espoused by the likes of Marine Le Pen and others throughout Europe.

The worlds has completely changed in the aftermath of the Russian invasion of Ukraine. Initially, we had a number of meetings with representatives of the Ukrainians, Moldovans and Georgians. Delegations and individuals visited all three countries as a follow-up. The chargé d'affaires of North Macedonia was before the committee also, and we will have further meetings with representatives from Montenegro and Serbia. There are other interactions, whether it is at the level of the Conference of Parliamentary Committees for Union Affairs of Parliaments of the European Union, COSAC, or anything else. We have found that there are those in the western Balkans who believe they were hard done by in the sense that there was an awful lot of talk about accession but that there was no real movement towards it. People would put it that there were rule-of-law issues within the European Union and that there was an element within the European Union that had basically decided we would get our house in order and not look at anybody else until that was dealt with, which was unfair. The positive points I have heard from the witnesses is that with all the caveats and the wrong roads that have been taken, there is now a route marked through. It is necessary that the European Union sets a high bar for the issues with the judiciary, corruption and anything else because we all want to live in a better Europe. Those are necessary conditions to facilitate that

The witnesses have already gone into some of the questions I intended to go into. As has been stated, we are living in a different world. The witnesses both spoke about the tools that are available to other players. We are in the age of asymmetrical warfare, including hybrid and cyberwarfare. There was mention of Albania's relationship with Iran but I would like to get into a bit more detail on the Russian and Chinese plays. I understand that China will be putting a significant amount of money into infrastructure in countries across the entire Balkan area, even into some countries that are within the European Union. Some of that may be positive on some level, but I ask for a little detail on it.

H.E. Mr. Qirjako Qirko

In my country, one of the few things common among all the political parties that have been in power in the last 31 years has been their western orientation. That means that from Russia in the last 30 years we did not have any investment and we did not accept Russian offers because we know how the Russians act. We have this experience because we had a close relationship with them until 1961. The old dream of Khrushchev at that time was to build the biggest submarine base in my country but thank God we broke the relationship with the Soviet Union in 1961 and this dream was broken also.

Russia's focus always remains in the western Balkans. That is why we are being very careful with all the kinds of economic offers they are giving. The same with the Chinese. They act in a different way because they know the position of my government, of all my governments in the past 21 years, but in the meantime they are trying to act, communicate and do business with private companies. Five years ago, they bought a Canadian oil company and for the moment the company is called Bankers Petroleum. It used to be a Canadian company and now it is in Chinese hands. They act in accordance with Albania's law and respect everything, but we are very careful with any offer coming from these two countries because we know the experience of the Chinese loans in Montenegro which were given to build a highway. We learn from the bad experience of others.

H.E. Mr. Vanja Filipovic

As regards Chinese influence, China has been pursuing economic diplomacy in the entire region. Bosnia and Herzegovina is not an exception. Chinese companies are very interested and are in fact involved in building several large infrastructural projects. The money or loans were probably the easiest to get and deals were done to fast-track these construction projects, which included a thermal power plant. Another project was in the works but it appears to have failed. The one notable change in Chinese diplomatic behaviour was in November last year at the discussion about extending the EUFOR peacekeeping mission, when China abstained, for the first time I believe, along with Russia. Before then, it was supportive of Russia every year, so that could be a sign of things to come or a change in positions. We will see. Our western Balkan countries are not alone in getting this type of economic approach from China. Chinese companies have built large infrastructural projects in EU countries as well. They have just completed construction of a major bridge in Croatia. They are looking for competitive openings and are usually found in places and on projects where European companies and funds are harder to get, more expensive or less competitive in different spheres. This is something that should be on our minds if we want to contend with it.

On some level, China is taking the opportunities that are not there for European countries. That is a part that would be a lot easier if you were further along the road to accession.

H.E. Mr. Vanja Filipovic

That is correct. As far as Russia is concerned, the influence has been there for years. We have been concerned about it. It comes in different forms sometimes related to economic or energy policy. Bosnia and Herzegovina is not a huge importer of gas but all the gas we import is Russian and comes through a single pipeline that goes through Serbia and so on. That is one important leverage. There is also cultural and historical leverage that Russia employs, especially with part of the population. Russia also acts as a sort of diplomatic cover and sponsor to their politics. Russia vetoed a UN Security Council resolution on genocide in Srebrenica, which won it some favours in certain circles. It is easy to recognise that its interest lies in the whole of the western Balkan area, Bosnia included, whose process of further integration into Euro-Atlantic institutions will be impeded by all means necessary. Russia has been partly successful in some places. It still has assets on the ground it can use to stir up troubles where it can. As I said, if things had gone differently in Ukraine, who knows what the scenario security-wise would have been in Bosnia and the Balkans. This is something the international community and western countries are more attuned to now. Bosnia and Herzegovina now receives more robust assistance from NATO and we are now pursuing NATO candidacy membership as well. It has been our foreign policy goal for a number of years. This is something that more and more people are attuned to, but it does not mean the threat has been resolved. It is still there.

In these changed set of circumstances, I imagine the witnesses are happier that there is more of a real engagement from the European Union and a route map through. Obviously, nowhere suffered more than Bosnia and Herzegovina when Yugoslavia broke apart. On some level, probably in a surface knowledge-type scenario, we are all aware of the various ethnic divisions. The ambassador has spoken about what he sees as hopeful signs following the recent election. If there is a move towards what we would all like to see as regards accession, with Bosnia also changing within that, how worried is Ambassador Filipovic with regard to relationships internally? If we talk about Republika Srpska, then the relationships with Croatia, with Serbia in particular, and again with the Russian play are significant. My notion of Bosnia and Herzegovina is that there are various areas that are disputed and probably people within these areas who on some level look to becoming part of Serbia, Croatia or some other place. I am not sure if the ambassador can detail every piece of that but perhaps he can go into whatever he can.

H.E. Mr. Vanja Filipovic

I thank the Acting Chairman for that very important question. One myth we need to keep busting is that somehow our country has been the site of centuries-old ethnic hatred and so on. We lived in peace, co-existence and with intermixing for centuries. The war that broke out in 1992 was not the war between the people in Bosnia and Herzegovina. That war was imported from outside with designs to destroy the newly independent, sovereign, internationally recognised nation of Bosnia and Herzegovina. Some of those designs are still present and actors use political means within the country with outside support to continue pursuing them. As I said in my statement, there was a long period of time, for about ten years, when those designs were kept clamped down and the country was able not only to reconcile internally but to build strong institutions. As a member of the UN Security Council, Bosnia and Herzegovina was involved daily in making difficult global decisions. It functioned like clockwork, perfectly in sync and was able to rise to those challenges. Unfortunately since that time, the international context and the approach towards Bosnia and Herzegovina has changed, which has allowed these nationalist populist voices to resurface and build their entire political agenda on pursuing, overtly or covertly, their wartime goals. They found international sponsors, both regionally and internationally, to do that. That is what we have to contend with. Most of the people in Bosnia and Herzegovina want to live in peace and in harmony with one another. They want to focus on jobs, careers, economy, education etc., but they are unable to do so because we keep being hammered by these voices that say people cannot live together or that the country is a failed state etc.

This is what we are contending with. We need a little bit more assistance to refocus and to isolate those divisive voices and give a chance to ordinary people and their representatives to move the country forward.

I get it. We are in a world where there is not only the regular play of politics one would have had traditionally but also online platforms. Not only are we open to cyberattack, we have facilities that are very easily weaponised by state and non-state actors to push confrontational politics, which can make that worse. That is a particular worry we have.

We had a meeting of the Joint Committees on Justice and European Union Affairs with Commissioner Jourová with regard to the rule of law recommendations given to us, one piece of which is about ensuring the electoral system within all states. We all know the dangers that have existed and the allegations made, whether it is the election in America or Brexit. It is to protect ourselves from those situations and undue influence. Mr. Filipovic has already spoken about the fact he has very many players who, in the best-case scenarios, are looking for stagnation but where the worst-case scenarios would mean putting themselves back to a place to which nobody wants to go.

The big question is what we, as a committee, can do and, more importantly, what the European Union can do to make sure there is a crystal-clear route map. What are the necessary supports Mr. Qirko and Mr. Filipovic would wish for that they may not be getting at present?

H.E. Mr. Qirjako Qirko

We wish to speed up the process. After 31 years, we are more or less knocking at the door. Sometimes we are listening from the other side and other times not. We need a speeded-up process. The western Balkans are not a problem. They are very much welcome for what they represent, not only geographically because, from all points of view, the western Balkans are part of Europe. We wish to become so as soon as possible. That is why the support of the committee is so important to us and why we appreciate it. We always say we are very much grateful for its unconditional support because we have not always got this. We have some recent examples such as the delay in the case of North Macedonia.

It is time to avoid any small interests and to see the future of the western Balkans because its prosperity and integration are also important for the security of the European Union. Albania is one of the few countries in the world that shares borders with other Albanians. In the north west, 10% of the population in Montenegro is Albanian, 95% of people are Albanian in Kosovo and, a little bit further down, 31% of people in North Macedonia are Albanian. However, what is important is that wherever they live, Albanians are very much focused on Euro-Atlantic integration of their own countries. We are not looking for a bigger Albania, as is sometimes mentioned, because we think the only way we can realise our dreams is to be a part of the European Union and avoid borders. Sometimes in the Balkans the borders and fences are not political ones. We are neighbours but we do not know each other because the politics have been like this.

I am very glad these kinds of negative perceptions of the past are now vanishing. I am very glad that in the past five years I have seen people with Serbian plates visiting my country on vacation. That is why co-operation, the opening of the borders and improvement of our economy is important. The history is there, but if we make our western Balkan economies complementary to each other, we will improve the lives of our people. If people have better lives, sometimes they forget about the negative past history. Our focus is on how to improve the lives of our people.

EU integration is the only way and the only objective we all have together. This is a good chance because it has never been like this. There are, of course, still problems such as relations between Kosovo and Serbia and some problems in Bosnia. However, the most important thing is that everywhere in the western Balkans, elected democratic governments are focusing on EU integration.

H.E. Mr. Vanja Filipovic

The EU has the largest economic, political and cultural influence on the whole region, including Bosnia and Herzegovina. Ireland, as a member of the EU, has an important role to play in the formulation of the policy and the approach to enlargement. The EU enlargement to western Balkan states is the only path to permanent stability, peace and prosperity of the region, and it will have a positive effect on overall European security and prosperity. That much is now clear to everybody. For too long this part of the world has been seen as kind of a soft European underbelly, and everybody now more or less agrees that the question needs to be resolved.

In Bosnia and Herzegovina, we are looking forward to a faster and more robust approach with the EU, but one thing we expect most is for the EU to play a role that echoes and reflects its own values. For too many years, we have seen the willingness of the EU negotiators and envoys to come up with fast solutions to emerging problems in Bosnia and Herzegovina and to respond to crises with political expediency rather than with thought-out, long-term solutions. This was often reflected as giving concessions to those who blocked the reform processes, threatened peace and security, or threatened to dissolve institutional advancements that had been made so far. Every time concessions were made, it only backfired. Those who created problems came back with even bigger demands. I am afraid we are looking at one of those scenarios again, especially with regard to the so-called electoral law reform, which is a big political issue that has been on our books for many years. It has been on the books because of the verdicts of the European Court of Human Rights and institutional discrimination that was determined to be ingrained in our constitution and the electoral law.

Instead of working at removing existing discrimination to make us more in line with EU values and norms, there are attempts to circumvent addressing those specific issues to address other issues within the country, especially with regard to some of the incumbent nationalist parties and their state sponsors from the neighbourhood. The EU must take a principled stand against that. If it cannot enforce or at least follow its own rules in the candidate or aspirant countries, the process of reform is unlikely to happen.

This is work the EU has to do to help Bosnia and Herzegovina along the road. We must all undertake considerations we never had to before. We are in a much-changed world, and we all accept that our interconnectivity and reliance on each other is greater than we previously believed. Short-term fixes for political expediency are not going to cut it. In fairness, I recognise from what both ambassadors said that this accession process is viewed from the perspective of improving economies and people's lives. I refer to ensuring we do not get caught up in some of the traditional difficulties that have occurred. I accept, however, that this is not going to be a straightforward conversation.

Rather than me hogging the meeting, which I am good at, I call Senator Martin. I will probably come back in later with a question concerning candidate countries following up on their obligations.

I thank the Acting Chair and our guests. Ireland's time in Europe has been part of a time of coming together and resisting the forces, of which there are many, that would like to break us up. Russia's war in Ukraine, that horrendous war which Putin started, has amplified the need for Europe to be a more united family. I understand the need for the Copenhagen criteria, and we do need certain ground rules, but this process has been unacceptably and painstakingly slow for so many candidate countries.

Regarding a potential way forward, is there a new opportunity in this regard in the context of the European Political Community, EPC, which was originally President Macron's brain wave? Last week, more than 40 European countries came together in Prague, the Czech capital, as part of an EPC meeting to discuss advancing security and energy co-operation. Representatives from every country were there, except Russia and Belarus, and it was correct that they were excluded. Is there an opportunity to develop this new organisation? I ask the ambassadors to tell us about the feedback in their respective countries regarding this new initiative, which included the British Prime Minister and the Prime Ministers of the ambassadors' countries. I think we could develop this organisation and that this would help to break down barriers and help countries to make friends. It would show this is achievable. Let us not get hung up on the Copenhagen criteria and placing them as an unfair and impossible obstacle to accession for some many countries that are reaching out to be part of the European family. Now is the time when we can review this situation in a more accessible, equitable and fair way. I ask the ambassadors, therefore, to give us their views on President Macron's historic initiative, in the context of the first meeting of the new organisation last week.

H.E. Mr. Qirjako Qirko

I thank the Senator. As we mentioned, President Macron's initiative is an opportunity. It is an opportunity to gather all the countries that share, more or less, the same values and orientation. We will have to wait and see what will happen next. Albania, however, was really glad of the initiative, and my Prime Minister gave a specific contribution regarding the idea of President Macron. There were member states at the table in Prague that shared the same values and faced the same challenges. In front of us was Russia, and on the other side of the table were 40 countries that are at different economic levels and at different stages of developing democratic standards but that have the same orientation. This was the best message conveyed by that table. In future, certainly, for us as countries in the western Balkans, this is an opportunity to be at the same table with the countries with which we share the same vision and opinions and face the same challenges.

H.E. Mr. Vanja Filipovic

The new forum is an important new venue for discussion of emerging threats and things that span the borders of the EU and affect the entire Continent. In that regard, it is very good to have this initiative. Everybody came back with a positive view. This new organisation does not, though, substitute for the need and goal of my country, Bosnia and Herzegovina, to meet the Copenhagen criteria, not because that process is there but because we need it and we want to reform our country and to make it a vibrant, democratic and rule-of-law state, with a vibrant and open market economy. We wish to uphold the values of the Copenhagen criteria and meet them for ourselves and not just as something we must achieve to become a member state in time. We need to undertake this reform for ourselves and for the benefit of our citizens. The new forum is a good initiative to facilitate discussion and it reflects the new reality, but it does not fully substitute for what already exists.

In fairness, the ambassadors have been straightforward in terms of what they want to see from the European Union, which is that there should be no more obstacles and accession should be achieved as fast as possible. Equally, however, both ambassadors stated that their countries accept and want to meet the Copenhagen criteria and the specific 14 reforms to be undertaken in that regard. I refer to what is on their to-do lists and the general timeline in being able to satisfy these requirements.

Given the circumstances we are in, and the ambassadors mentioned this point earlier, where energy security meets the cost-of-living energy price crisis, what engagement have Albania and Bosnia and Herzegovina had with the EU? I ask this question because the EU is trying to deal with its own issues. These are different depending on the member state, and whether we are referring to Germany, Ireland, etc., but, collectively, we are considering block-buying oil and liquid natural gas. Everything is up for grabs now. We understand that in the long term, the real movement must be towards renewables. We will not, though, be able to do all that in time for this winter. We also do not want to give any sort of win to the Russians now. We do not want to restore to them what they are losing in the field through being able to deliver an economic knock to the rest of the western world.

H.E. Mr. Qirjako Qirko

It seems it will be a difficult winter for all European countries. It will be the same for my country. The energy production system in Albania is 100% based on hydroelectricity. This is a pure source of energy and allows us to fulfil 75% of our demands with our own source of power. The other 25% of the required energy is always imported. In the meantime, for the last four years, we have been trying to-----

This energy source breakdown also means that Albania has an element of control regarding the price of energy.

H.E. Mr. Qirjako Qirko

Yes, we do. We are, however, very much influenced by market prices for the imported 25% of our energy requirements. We have been trying to diversify in this regard in the last four years. Albania has more than 250 days with sunshine, so there has been major investment in solar energy. There is still a demand, however. From this perspective, the request of my Prime Minister, even at that Prague meeting, was that the western Balkans should not be forgotten, as happened during Covid-19. The effects are the same, and we are trying and doing our best to co-operate. We are increasing the capacity through the trans Adriatic pipeline, which runs from Azerbaijan to Italy. From this perspective, we will try to increase the influx of gas coming from this source, as well as to try to fill-----

Mr. Qirko is saying that Albania's engagement is from the perspective of trying to facilitate a solution to some of the difficulties that exist in certain EU countries.

H.E. Mr. Qirjako Qirko

In the meantime, we would like some support, for sure, from the European Union in the energetic system, such as financial support, to overcome the huge obstacles that we will face this winter.

This is something we have to build into any conversation we have in the next while. It is part of the wider conversation of just how interconnected we are, but we all have to make this journey together. We have to get through this winter and eventually put ourselves in a better place.

Does Albania have a timeline to deliver on the obligations required by the European Commission in order to move on to the next step? Is it a case of how long is a piece of string?

H.E. Mr. Qirjako Qirko

It depends how fast we will run. We are ready to fulfil them. We are trying our best but, as I said, the most difficult chapters in this process are chapters 23 and 24, from the experience of the other countries. We started the process four years ago by adopting one of the toughest systems for the Judiciary. In reference to what the EU experts say, maybe the Albanian model will be taken as an example for some European countries facing the same problem with corruption in the judicial system. It is a good step forward and a positive model.

Albania is looking at a best-in-class system.

H.E. Mr. Qirjako Qirko

That is why we are so optimistic. We are trying to pass the most difficult chapter in this process.

H.E. Mr. Vanja Filipovic

As for energy security, yes, it will be a difficult winter for everybody. For the citizens of Bosnia and Herzegovina the cost of living and energy is the number one issue. We are not exporters of electric power. We are not huge consumers of gas but a large portion of imported gas is used in Sarajevo, for example, for public heating. If that supply were to be cut off, it would have a major impact. Therefore, the Albanian Government is trying to mitigate some of these things through various approaches both domestically, in the policy of trying to reduce some of the costs, and internationally, in trying to diversify the energy source.

As to a timeline on the accession to the EU, it is hard to make any sort of prediction. It basically depends on our domestic and political arena. We have just held elections and new governments will be formed at various levels, such as at state level, entity levels and cantonal levels.

Mr. Filipovic said earlier that he was hopeful about how that election will turn out. Will he go into further detail on that?

H.E. Mr. Vanja Filipovic

The ballots are still being counted, so these are unofficial reports, but the results are clear at the highest level for the Head of State, the presidency. We know who the three future members of the presidency will be. The remaining results are more or less mixed. Many incumbent parties will remain in power. Some smaller changes may happen on a cantonal level, but the overall make-up will not be much different from the one before. It was very important, at least symbolically, to see two members of the presidency come from multi-ethnic parties, which was the first time this happened.

It is difficult to make a prediction because in the past we had parliament walk-outs and obstructions, which were used as tools of political blackmail. In order for some parties to receive certain concessions, they would block the passage of legislation and even block the appointment of judges and use whatever political means they had to get what they were after. If they are able to continue in the same manner, the forecast will not very good. What is encouraging is the new energy felt from Brussels, with more interest in integration and moving things on.

That makes it easier to sell in the ambassador's country, being able to say Albania has the European Union as a partner. This was probably not the case in previous years.

H.E. Mr. Vanja Filipovic

It was always there but on a more technical level. With a higher political level of involvement, it makes a difference.

That is brilliant stuff. We have dealt comprehensively with a considerable number of issues, which will feed into the work we are doing on accession in general. While there are a number of caveats and worries, there is a lot of hope. We all want to go in the same direction and play whatever small part we can. Before I finish, do members have any questions?

I thank both ambassadors for travelling from London. We are told there are approximately 700 Albanians and 230 Bosnians living in Ireland. They are very welcome here. I am delighted we have very good diplomatic relations between our countries. Today has been an important part of strengthening the ties between us and I very much welcome the dialogue we had today.

I agree with Deputy Haughey. Those are the latest figures we have, they are from the 2016 census, and I have a feeling they are going in one happy direction in which citizens from the ambassadors' country enrich our country and I would love to see more of them reside in Ireland. This is a welcoming home and I am a big believer not only in tolerance - that is a given - but in celebrating and embracing the huge richness of diversity and how we can learn from one another.

I thank our guests for their presentations. On behalf of us all, I can safely say that the ambassadors know where Ireland stands on this, but we must do our best to focus. I am sure they have heard all the nice words in the past but we must, in real, measured terms, tangibly advance a cause of unification in Europe that is so obvious to us. Let us hope that we can adhere to the criteria, which I respect, but it should not take two years.

I too welcome both ambassadors. Tá fáilte mhór rompu. Maybe one day we will get to the point where we will have ambassadors in situ in Ireland and the need to travel here would not be necessary.

H.E. Mr. Vanja Filipovic

On the population of people from Bosnia and Herzegovina in Ireland, the number is between 1,000 and 2,000, the majority of whom were refugees who came from harm, and escaped war and persecution. In the 1990s they found home and shelter in this beautiful country. They found the very warm support of people like Mr. Coonan, who I recognised as a great friend of our country, working with our diaspora here. They are very well integrated and are enjoying their lives here. They have found understanding and support on so many levels. This is also thanks to Government policies in this regard. We are proud they are making a major contribution to Irish society.

H.E. Mr. Qirjako Qirko

I again thank the committee for this opportunity to listen to our ambition to one day become part of the family. The number of Albanians in Ireland has increased to about 2,000. We have worked very closely with Irish authorities to avoid even illegal immigration. Why are people from my country interested to come to Ireland? It is because nobody feels like a foreigner or an outsider in this country. It is welcoming. There are no racist prejudices here. I do not want to justify someone trying to come here illegally.

For this specific meeting I would like to thank the committee again. I repeat that Albania is always grateful to this country for its continuous unconditional support. I know that I have repeated this three times, but it is important because Ireland may be the only country or one of very countries in the European Union that have reacted so positively to our ambition.

Go raibh maith agaibh go léir and we will finish the meeting on those kind words.

The joint committee adjourned at 11.01 a.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 19 October 2022.
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