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JOINT COMMITTEE ON FINANCE AND THE PUBLIC SERVICE debate -
Thursday, 18 Sep 2003

Vol. 1 No. 15

Irish Payment Services Organisation: Presentation.

I welcome Mr. Stuart MacKinnon, chief executive and Mr. Barry O'Mahony, company secretary, of the Irish Payment Services Organisation Limited. In a few moments I will invite Mr. MacKinnon to make a presentation to the joint committee which will be followed by a question and answer session. A maximum of one hour has been allocated for this section of the meeting.

I would remind the visitors that while the comments of members of the joint committee are protected by parliamentary privilege, the comments of the visitors are not so protected. I would remind members of the long standing parliamentary practice to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside of the House or an official, in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I invite Mr. MacKinnon to make his presentation.

Mr. Stuart MacKinnon

Thank you, Chairman and members of the joint committee for inviting us here today to make a presentation to you.

We are delighted to appear before the committee today and to be given the opportunity not only to advise on the role played by IPSO and the payments industry in the Irish economy, but also, inter alia, to dispel a few myths and misconceptions about how payment systems in Ireland are organised and governed. I would like also to say a word or two about IPSO’s vision and strategic direction, what requires to be done and how I believe the committee could play a central role in helping the payments industry deliver on its objectives, which are of crucial national importance.

Finally, I wish to address a number of statements made about IPSO and access to payment systems at the hearing of the committee held on 11 July and subsequently reported in the media. I would welcome questions from members of the committee after my presentation, which I hope to wrap up in about 15 minutes.

What is the payments industry? Payment systems, such as those which support cheques, credit cards, debit cards, direct debits, high value transfers, etc., facilitate the exchange of value and the movement of the underlying payment instrument between payer and beneficiary in an economy. I shall give a few statistics to demonstrate the significance of payment systems in Ireland. For instance, 125 million cheques were cleared in Ireland last year, together with some 171 million retail electronic inter-bank transactions, that is, direct credits, such as salary payments, and direct debits.

The total annual transactions of Laser, Ireland's debit card, is of the order of 70 million transactions with a value of €4.2 billion. There are 1.2 million Laser cards on issue from a standing start seven years ago. IRIS, Ireland's high value inter-bank payment system, settles in real-time some €19 billion, in terms of value every day. Thus, payment systems are key economic infrastructures, critical to the smooth functioning of any economy.

If one of our payments systems were to fail, the impact could be to threaten the Irish economy. Robustness and reliability of payment systems and the standing and soundness of the full members in our payment systems are, therefore, of critical importance. These fundamental requirements underpin all our actions at IPSO.

Perhaps I can give members of the committee an example of a situation which occurred when I was in the UK. In 1997, the BACS system - the automated clearing house - failed and consequently some 50 million electronic retail payments did not take place. Wages and salaries were not paid, which without early and corrective action by the industry could have had a major consequential impact on customers. It is not just the failure of a bank that is at issue but operational failure of the system itself.

I am pleased to say that payment systems in Ireland have a robust risk control basis, operate to best practice principles, comply with international principles and standards issued by institutions such as the Bank for International Settlements, the European Central Bank and the OECD, and are regulated by the Central Bank - now the CBFSAI. We in the payments industry cannot be and we are not complacent.

What is IPSO? IPSO is the umbrella body for payment services for financial institutions in Ireland. The company provides strategic leadership and technical support to the payments industry in the non-competitive infrastructural arena, facilitates consultation among participants and represents the payments industry at national and international levels. It is a totally independent company and is not affiliated to any other company or organisation. IPSO provides strategic direction and leadership to the payments industry in a number of areas including technological developments, regulation, international developments and communicates strategic guidance to the various arms of the industry. Its other principal role is to promote the integrity, reliability, availability and soundness of payments systems on an ongoing basis, although the responsibility for this lies with the Central Bank as regulator of payment systems.

IPSO is keen to ensure the orderly and planned development of the Irish payments industry. Our key task is to drive the transition of end user customers to a modernised payments infrastructure which involves much greater use of electronic payments instead of cash and paper based payments in Ireland. By paper based payments we mean cheques. The Government has a key leadership role to play in this respect. I would like to return to this critical issue later in my presentation. It has significant relevance not only for Government costs but for Ireland's national competitiveness. In my opinion, this would be a very useful area of focus by your esteemed committee as a key catalyst in the parliamentary process.

IPSO and the clearing companies were set up in 1997 to meet public policy desires in Europe and globally to ensure that payment, clearing and settlement systems in all countries meet appropriate standards of safety, integrity and competitive openness. Contrary perhaps to popular belief, IPSO does not operate or control access to payment systems, nor does it have any power to set any payment systems rules or thresholds.

The payment systems in Ireland are operated by separate corporate entities, each having their own members and boards of directors. Payment systems in Ireland must be operated as limited companies which is a requirement of the Central Bank Act 1997.

The Central Bank and Financial Services Authority of Ireland is the regulator of payment systems in Ireland and must give its approval to all rules, including rules for membership and access to payment systems adopted by the clearing companies and to any changes to the rules. IPSO itself has gone through a significant transformation over the past two years, since I became chief executive. This has included a major governance review of IPSO with the appointment onto the board of two independent, non-executive directors who have no connection with the banking industry and the creation within IPSO of a new class of membership known as affiliate membership for non-banks. This process of change, which will be evolutionary, recognises a number of dynamic changes which are taking place in the payments systems environment.

There are four payment companies which are members of IPSO. The Irish Paper Clearing Company is responsible for the clearance of paper cheques and credit transfers; the Irish Retail Electronic Payments Clearing Company is responsible for the clearance of bulk low value electronic payments, such as direct debits and salary payments; the Irish Real-time Interbank Settlement system is responsible for high value electronic inter-bank payments and Laser is responsible for Ireland's debit card. Each company operates its own payments scheme and is wholly autonomous, responsible for its own decision taking, access criteria, operating rules, funding and development. Each member institution in a clearing company has a right to membership of IPSO and to representation on its board. It is not a mandatory requirement for a member of a clearing company to be a member of IPSO and several banks have chosen not to become members of it.

Laser has five full members and the IRIS has 20 full members, among them some of the biggest banks in the world. Currently, there are six full members of the IRECC and seven full members of the Irish Paper Clearing Company. I have listed the memberships in Appendix A to this presentation.

All the banks in the IRECC and the IPCC provide payment services to other credit institutions, which as a consequence become associate members of the relevant companies. For example, the latter bank on the list, BNP Paribas, acts as clearing agent for eight international banks, including Bank of America, Citibank and Bank of Scotland (Ireland).

The organisational and regulatory structure, therefore, allows institutions the freedom of choice to join the payment systems which best suit their business requirements. More importantly, banks and financial institutions can access Irish payment systems in order to provide competing banking services to customers without having to become full members or to incur the infrastructure and operational costs of full membership.

Each clearing company has publicly available access criteria which are fair, transparent and non-discriminatory. The rules have been applied consistently and no bank has ever been refused admission to any of the clearing companies. Two institutions, HSBC and the National Treasury Management Agency, joined the IRIS system as recently as 1999 and First Active rejoined the Laser scheme in July of this year. Following the creation of the IRECC and the IPCC there have been no new applications for full membership of these companies but 15 associated members - the mix of which includes small, medium and very large banks - have joined to avail of agency services.

The access criteria of all companies have been approved by the CBFSAI. The criteria are not complex. In broad terms, membership is open to any credit institution regulated by a Central Bank in the European Union or from a G10 country which has a settlement account at the Central Bank; meets the operational and technical requirements of the clearing company, this includes demonstrating its ability to honour its settlement commitments and its compliance with the rules for clearing; and submits a clearing plan, the purpose of which is to address the operational and technical matters referred to above and its projections as to likely volume transactions throughput - that is to show it would be a significant provider of money transmission services - to assist in capacity planning for the company and in the case of the paper clearing company to demonstrate achievement of the 1% minimum volume throughput requirement.

It should be noted that in 1995 the Competition Authority had no objection to the concept of 1% minimum volume threshold. The access criteria are broadly the same for all the clearing companies, although there are differences in certain of the criterion in different companies, reflecting the different nature of the specific operations. The access criteria are the same in substance as those which were reviewed by the Competition Authority and the Minister for Finance in 1995, even before the Central Bank was formally appointed as statutory regulator, and the criteria received a clean bill of health. We take particular cognisance of the observations in 1995 of the Minister for Finance when he said that "the thresholds applied for membership, the costs of membership and other provisions should not be prohibitive for institutions to participate". We in the IPSO and the clearing company boards entirely agree with these observations.

With regard to costs of participation, membership of the clearing companies involves the payment of costs by applicant institutions. The rules require that a new institution would pay an entry cost to cover an element of the past development costs of the clearing, including research, development, standards, training and administrative costs; pay to each of the incumbent members the impact costs which they incur in accommodating the new member into the clearing system - this may involve software changes, hardware changes, testing, stationary changes, resource impacts, etc.; and pay its fair and reasonable share of the ongoing operational costs of the company, which are determined by reference to actual costs incurred. The costs of the company are shared by members by reference to the respective volumes in the clearings.

Entry costs have been referred to also as sunk costs. Entry/sunk costs are generally acceptable from a competition law perspective as long as they are not objectively excessive. I refer to the Competition Authority's decisions in 1995 in that regard. The retail payment systems in Ireland operate primarily as own bank infrastructure and are operated by own bank clearing departments. No new entrant has to pay for this, rather a new entrant would need to invest in its own infrastructure and in its own personnel. Thus, to some extent, the concern expressed about buying into entry costs is misplaced as the system entry costs will be de minimis as opposed to own costs incurred.

It is only reasonable that a new entrant seeking to link up with existing clearing members should be required to pay for the costs incurred by them in accommodating the new entrant as long as the costs are not objectively excessive. This concept is adopted by payment systems throughout the world and thus avoids the free rider concept, with which the committee will be familiar.

It is also reasonable that all members must pay a proportionate share of the ongoing operational costs of the company, calculated by reference to their volume throughput in the system. The clearing companies are not for profit, guarantee companies which are run on a break-even basis. Therefore, the notion that institutions cannot gain access to payment systems in Ireland without the support or sponsorship of an existing institution is patently wrong.

Neither the IPCC nor the IRECC has received, since they were established in 1997, any applications for full membership but institutions have become associate members through agency arrangements. Such arrangements are obtainable on a competitive tender basis from full members in an entirely confidential manner. The companies have not been required to calculate what the costs attaching to entry are but if they receive an application, the costing exercise will be undertaken immediately. Costs, volumes and infrastructure do not remain static and the impacts of a new bank joining will vary depending on the time of entry and the bank involved. Thus, this cannot be carried out as an academic exercise in isolation.

Mindful of competition law considerations, own bank costs of running a bank's clearing operations are confidential to that bank and thus could not be shared with the other banks. This also explains why it is difficult to evaluate the actual costs of participation in the retail clearings in Ireland. Although no bank has ever been refused entry to membership, a right of appeal process is enshrined in the companies' rules for membership. The CBFSAI, as statutory regulator and overseer of payment systems, provides that function and can request the board of a clearing company to reconsider its decision on a membership application.

It should be noted that there is no shared, centralised infrastructure in any of the payment systems in Ireland. Each bank has over time built up its own infrastructure. These individual infrastructures are interlinked to provide inter-operability. There is no centralised clearing house in Ireland to which new banks can join by plugging in and playing. Thus the suggestion made at 11 July meeting of the committee that a profitable clearing house exists in Ireland is not factually correct. Another widely held myth is that because Ireland does not have a central clearing house our payments clearing must be inefficient. That is not proven. For example, Finland does not have an ACH, a central automated clearing house. Interestingly, Finland is generally reckoned to be the most advanced and most efficient country in terms of payments by the European Central Bank. The failure of the BACS system in the UK in 1997 shows the dangers of a centralised clearing house to which banking regulators worldwide have drawn attention since 11 September.

The governing rules of the clearing companies provide for the concept of proportionate voting according to volume throughput in the clearing. This structure was approved by the Central Bank and to date has not given rise to any particular problems. Moreover, it is consistent with governance in payment systems in the UK and worldwide. The fact that the retail clearing companies are constituted by guarantee, not share capital, is an academic point in the context of funding the costs of any payment system. For example, although IRIS, the real-time gross settlement company, is constituted by share capital, the number of shares allocated to members is based on volumes.

I want to say a few words about comparisons with the UK, which have received much media comment and innuendo. Despite what has been said both before this committee and in the media, the rules for membership of payment systems in Ireland broadly mirror those in the UK. There are some small differences. UK payment systems have recently dispensed with their minimum volume threshold but, on the other hand, they have introduced an additional criterion which we have had in Ireland for some time, although we have expressed it differently, that is, a new member joining a payment system in the UK must be confirmed as an acceptable risk to all existing members of the system. The retail clearing systems in the UK require the members to put up pre-funded collateral and loss sharing arrangements are in place in the event of the collapse or default of a bank. No comparative collateral requirements exist as yet in Ireland and consequently the significant costs associated with collateralisation are avoided.

I cannot stress enough the critical importance attaching to the need to protect the overall integrity of payment systems, and retail payment systems in particular. Unlike IRIS where payments are settled in real time at the Central Bank, both IRECC and IPCC are net end-of-day settlement systems. A significant industry exposure between banks thus exists intra-day, so knowing counter parties and having confidence in them is the key to the operation of payment systems in Ireland and their ongoing soundness. Default of a member of a payment system would be a serious issue for not only the other members but also for the economy as a whole. It could impact, for example, on the payment of salaries and pensions and Government welfare benefits.

I am qualified to talk on the UK situation as I was previously a member of the senior management team of both APACS, the equivalent body to IPSO in the UK, and subsequently at BACS, the UK's automated clearing house. IPSO has close ongoing liaison with our UK counterparts, as we do with payment associations throughout the world.

Applicant institutions to any of the payment schemes in the UK are required to pay entry costs and impact costs to the incumbent members. This is a feature common to payment systems' access criteria in many countries. International banks which are members of systems in several countries recognise the need to pay such costs and accept that there is no such thing as free rider status. It seems inconceivable that a bank which is a member of a payment system in one country where systems levy entry/impact or alignment costs should seek to question the validity of such costs or argue that such costs are anti-competitive or restrictive in another country. That is applying double standards.

Arguments were also made before this committee that payment systems in this country are operated by private companies and that that is not in the national interest. This is not unique. Privately owned companies operate payments systems in the majority of countries. Central Banks play a key role in the provision of payment services in certain countries, such as Germany. Moreover, Central Banks perform the function of settlement for payment systems in all advanced countries. In some countries, such as the US, privately owned systems exist side by side with Central Bank owned systems. Rather than ownership being the key concern from a public policy or regulatory perspective, of more importance should be the ongoing integrity, reliability, robustness, security and soundness of systems. The main requirement of the end user is a cost effective, secure money transmission system. His or her concern is not who owns the system but the certainty that a payment will be made. The system must work and work well, seamlessly to the consumer daily.

Any suggestion that industry ownership of systems is a barrier to entry is, with respect, misplaced. This was again, for example, not an issue for the Competition Authority nor for the Minister for Finance in 1995. It should be recognised that paper clearing systems are highly expensive to operate for banks. The cost of infrastructure and the processes involved represent a huge cost to the industry. IPSO has been seeking for some time to convince key stakeholders, including the Government, of the crucial need to transfer their payments to electronic means. At the same time we are mindful of competition law implications. The benefits of migrating away from paper to electronics will accrue to the wider economy, as evidenced in the recent Accenture Report, commissioned by the Information Society Commission. Cheques are declining in usage, but not at the rate necessary to improve our national competitiveness and bring us into line with our European counterparts.

It is also somewhat surprising in my experience that any bank would wish to become a full member of the paper clearing system when unit costs are rising rapidly in a declining payment system. The UK banks have almost entirely exited the cheque processing industry by outsourcing this expensive task to two outsourcing companies, IPSL and EDS. There have been no entrants to the UK cheque clearing for some years, which is structured in the same way as IPCC. If any barrier to entry exists in payment systems, this could be said to be the costs of setting up the infrastructure necessary to engage in cheque clearing on a direct participation basis. That barrier is not, however, imposed by the industry.

When approaching participation in a payment system in any country an applicant institution is faced with a classic rent or buy decision. The bank can either become a full member in a system and invest in the infrastructure to allow the bank to meet its obligations and rules of the system or it can avail of agency arrangements by using the payment services of a full member. The latter route involves no or minimum investment in infrastructure and thus provides a more cost-effective solution to the provision of services to its customers by the small or marginal bank. Exactly the same services are provided through either the full or associate membership route and the ability of a bank to offer services, such as personal current accounts, to end user customers is not impaired by virtue of a bank availing of the agency arrangements of another bank. The international banks' use of BNP Paribas in both IPCC and IRECC is a manifestation of this fact.

Clearly, the two-tier membership structure, which also exists in the UK, is a way that actively facilitates non-indigenous banks entry into payment systems rather that acting as a barrier to entry, real or perceived. An independent report issued by Davy Stockbrokers in February 2003, which commented on the Competition Authority's study into the banking sector, seems to bear out this fact by stating on page 18: "The entry costs and conditions associated with gaining access to the money transmission system are not the kernel of the problem, as any bank can become a full clearing bank and set up its own infrastructure or, as seems more likely, agree a deal with one of the existing clearers". Full membership of a clearing system implies costs, responsibilities and obligations which should not be taken on by the faint hearted or by banks lacking payments expertise or by those seeking a free ride.

Turning to the role of the Central Bank, to reiterate, the regulation of payment systems was put on a formal statutory basis by the Oireachtas in 1997. It was this House which provided for the Central Bank to be the regulator, and under more recent legislation the CBFSAI. The Central Bank has regulatory responsibility to ensure that payment systems are effective, efficient and open. The Central Bank also has regulatory responsibilities to ensure fair access to payment systems, such as cheque clearing, by non-clearing banks. As independent regulator of payment systems, the Central Bank can impose terms and conditions on payment systems' operators limiting the conditions of access and any entry fees. If any applicant has any concerns regarding either the conditions of access or the costs of entry, they are free to take the matter up with the Central Bank for its consideration.

It should be noted that any member of a payment system who has concerns regarding terms of membership or the operation of the system is free to take the matter up with the Central Bank as regulator for its consideration. In effect, therefore, this is a right of appeal. This should presumably be a comfort to smaller institutions which are concerned about the possibility of being outvoted.

The CBFSAI carries out its own investigations and reviews of payment systems issues, including undertaking on an ongoing basis its own independent risk assessments of the clearing companies. The CBFSAI is in frequent dialogue with IPSO and the individual clearing companies and seeks written reports on payment systems activities, including statistics, reports on projects, initiatives and developments. A statement made at the 11 July hearing of this committee suggested that the Central Bank has called for, or is carrying out, a review of payment systems in Ireland. The CBFSAI is currently engaged in a study but my understanding from talking to it is that the focus of its research in the area of retail payments is with a view to building up a comprehensive profile of retail payment instruments, that is, products and services currently available from banks in the Irish market. The CBFSAI wrote to 22 credit institutions in May 2002 requesting completion of a detailed questionnaire. I understand the CBFSAI is currently preparing an analytical report on its findings.

IPSO is not aware of any concerns or unhappiness on the Central Bank's part about the organisation and structure of the payments industry or about access to payment systems in Ireland.

Chairman and members of the committee, I agree with previous submissions that current payment systems in Ireland are efficiently run and regulated. I do not agree that the rules for membership or access to systems are rotten, as suggested by one banker who gave evidence before this committee on 11 July nor is it a strange club. Everything in any walk of life is open to improvement but I do not believe there is a case, nor do the facts support a case, for a fundamental reform of payment systems in Ireland. It is my assumption that, from a public policy perspective, there is general satisfaction with the regulatory regime for payment systems in Ireland given, for example, that this House saw fit to make practically no change under the Central Bank and Financial Services Authority of Ireland Act 2002 to the terms of the statutory code of regulation provided under the Central Bank Act 1997.

The payment systems being operated under the IPSO umbrella are well run and well supervised by an independent regulator. They have open, transparent and non-discriminatory terms of access. In summary, the system works, efficiencies are generated through competition at the front end of the banking sector and certainty of payment is the key driver in the eyes of the end user customer.

Looking to the future, the development of an integrated electronic payment infrastructure, accessible by all institutions and by all citizens, is IPSO's strategic vision and central to our five year strategic plan. Government leadership is key to allowing IPSO and its members take forward that plan. In addition, Government must demonstrate by example by becoming an intelligent user of electronic payment services itself. It is the largest issuer of cheques in the country and has the most to gain, therefore, from switching to electronics. Fiscal requirements, such as the abolition of stamp duties, must also be aligned with an electronic payments strategy.

IPSO is keen to commence the engagement process with all stakeholders to develop a strategic road map to deliver a national plan for payments. Ireland must play its full part in the single euro payment area, which demands efficiency reforms in the way we make payments. The commitment of this committee to our overarching objectives will be very welcome in that process. I would, for instance, welcome the continuing interest of the committee in the significant challenges facing payment systems and to ensure that the payments agenda becomes a more immediate focus of Government. This would be in the interest of all concerned, not least consumers. Perhaps as a practical step, the committee might propose the creation of a national payments forum comprising specialists from various sectors and key stakeholders in the payments business to promote innovation and collaboration in payments systems and thus bring about these essential efficiency reforms. IPSO would be happy to facilitate such a forum.

Chairman and members of the committee, I thank you for your attention.

Thank you, Mr. MacKinnon, for your presentation. Before I invite members of the committee to ask questions, I would like to put a few questions. I have a cheque made payable to me and drawn on the Paymaster General. It is a Houses of the Oireachtas expenses cheque. If I lodge it to my account today, Thursday, 18 September 2003, I know I will not be able to get funds on that lodgment until at least next Monday. We have heard about the billions going through and about the 600 millions transactions. If I buy a lottery ticket at 7.30 p.m. on a Saturday evening, I know within a few minutes whether I have won. I know you believe cheques are on the way but is the organisation deliberately making it hard for people to get value for cheques? The cheque I have is drawn on the Paymaster General. I do not understand in these days of high technology why, if I lodge this cheque to my Permanent TSB current account today, I cannot draw money out of the ATM tonight. I have to wait until next Monday, or even next Tuesday, before I can get funds on it. Will you explain that? I know if I am an AIB customer and lodge an AIB cheque to an AIB account, it might be quicker but it takes five or six days for me to be able to draw money on a cheque from the Paymaster General.

Mr. MacKinnon

Thank you, Chairman. That is an excellent question. The warrant you have in your hand is not a cheque. It is called a PMG payable order. It does not operate to the rules of the clearing system. If one lodged a cheque drawn on AIB to an account in Bank of Ireland, one would get same day value for that cheque. If it was one's salary cheque, one would be allowed to draw against the funds——

You have added a qualifier, that is, if it was a salary cheque.

Mr. MacKinnon

Your suggestion was that this was a PMG payment in respect of expenses.

It is an expenses cheque. Salaries might be treated differently. Many organisations have arrangements in place to clear salary cheques on the day. That does not apply to every other cheque. Will you talk about cheques in general rather than about salary cheques which might clear more quickly?

Chairman——

Sorry, we will deal with this question first.

On a point of information on the question you asked——

I will take questions in a minute.

They lodge them straightaway if one lodges them directly which adds to the Chairman's question. If one goes to the bank with one's cash card——

That is news to me.

They will lodge it on a same day basis, which actually adds to the Chairman's argument.

Yes, it does.

If you must physically travel to the bank to get same day recognition of the value of a cheque, it adds to his argument as to why he can not just lodge it and be credited without physically having to go down there.

I am not taking any interruptions for the moment because the members will get an opportunity to ask questions. To return to the question, Mr. MacKinnon, I think you know where we are coming from. We have heard a great deal from you about presentation from the industry. We are equally concerned about the service to Joe or Joan Citizen and this is the impact the banking system has on them every day of the week.

Mr. MacKinnon

Traditionally the cheque clearing system has been reported to be a three-day cycle, in other words, if you lodge a cheque in a bank on day one of the clearing cycle, it is in the clearing system on day two and hits the drawer's account on day three. That has been the tradition of payment systems.

All the banks are working very hard to reduce clearing cycles for both paper and electronic transactions, but there must be an incentive for people moving to electronic payments. The electronic payment system is much more efficient. It saves you going to visit the bank, for instance. That is just one example. It also saves reconciliation. Your employer would pay the salary payment directly into the bank account for you. That is where we are coming from, the whole suggestion of moving away from paper to electronic transactions.

If I interpret that correctly, you will continue the disincentive to use cheques to force people to cease using cheques because you want to move to the electronic payment system. I noted in the annual review you gave us before the meeting that about 600 million transactions went through your system last year. Some 125 million or 20% of these transactions were cheques. I note the value of cheques is about50%.

Mr. MacKinnon

There were 125 million cheques and 171 million electronic retail payments.

When one adds debit payments and automatic direct payments, it brings the figure up to 600 million. The number of cheques in the system form only approximately 20% of transactions. Is your objective to weed cheques out of the system altogether in due course?

Mr. MacKinnon

The number of cheque transactions in Ireland is reducing, but not quickly enough.

For your liking?

Mr. MacKinnon

For the economy's liking. If we look at European comparisons, for example, the total amount of cheques clearing in Finland in a year is half a million and we are clearing 125 million. Our role model should be a country like Finland and that is what I am trying to achieve here.

I see your point. That brings me to the second issue. As we are moving to payment by direct debit cards such as Laser card and by credit card, your annual report, on page 26, contains quite a bit about card fraud. The reason I ask the following question is that the individual banks might not release such information because they might say it is sensitive. Without giving specific sensitive information on any individual bank, can you tell the committee what was the volume of fraud in the industry last year?

Mr. MacKinnon

I will ask my colleague, Barry O'Mahony, to answer that question for one specific reason. Barry is managing one of our biggest programmes, which is, the chip and PIN migration programme. He is probably in a better position than myself to answer.

Mr. Barry O’Mahony

My focus has been on the area of cards and card fraud. According to the last year's fraud figures for Ireland, fraud on cards issued in Ireland amounted to somewhat less than €10 million. That must be viewed in the context of an overall volume of card payments in excess of €9 billion. While there has been a great deal of concern about card fraud, and rightly so, it should be viewed in the context of how safe card and electronic payments are in the totality of payments.

Ten million euro is the extent of it?

Mr. O’Mahony

That is the order of magnitude in a total turnover of €9.1 billion.

When do you hope to have the chip and PIN system in place as opposed to the system using signatures where when you make a transaction in a restaurant or garage, the card cango out of your possession and any signatureis accepted on any credit card anywhere inIreland?

Mr. O’Mahony

We had an announcement to make in this respect last week and the Tánaiste made it on our behalf. We will be rolling out the initial phase of this chip and PIN programme in the summer of next year starting with the Naas/Newbridge area and then it will be rolled out across the country on a gradual basis. Under that system, the cards will contain a micro-chip instead of relying on a magnetic strip and the cardholder will be asked to key in a personal identification number - PIN - instead of signing a piece of paper. This particular system will attack counterfeit fraud and will help to reduce fraud that is generated through lost and stolen cards. It will not solve all areas of card fraud. Through IPSO's card payments group, we are working on other initiatives to address other areas of card fraud.

There are debit cards, credit cards and charge cards. Is one type of card more prone to fraudulent use than others?

Mr. O’Mahony

No. The debit card system in Ireland, the Laser card, has been less prone to fraud than other cards, but part of the reason is that it is a domestic card and one can only use the Laser scheme in Ireland whereas counterfeit fraud is growing internationally on the back of credit cards. The criminal gangs involved in counterfeiting would be international gangs operating across borders and therefore a domestic card probably is not as attractive a target for them.

Do you see having the cardholder's photograph on a card as an element of combating fraud or are you going down an alternative route?

Mr. O’Mahony

It is our belief, and the industry's belief, that the personal identification number - PIN - is the more secure mechanism for now. As we have seen with passports and such other documents, photographs can be forged and replaced. The PIN is a more secure mechanism.

I appreciate that. As you will be aware, I have a PIN to turn on my mobile phone, a different one for the house alarm, etc., and one of these days I will confuse them.

Mr. O’Mahony

You are a bit like myself in that regard, Chairman. Fortunately when we introduce this system we will provide a facility where one will be able to change the PIN. Therefore it will be a personal choice for cardholders whether they want to use the same PIN for the mobile phone, the security system at home or the ATM card, or to use a different one. That is a personal choice but it will be facilitated by the new process.

Would you expect a big reduction in the level of fraud as a result?

Mr. O’Mahony

We would expect to eliminate the counterfeiting element of fraud and we would also expect that there would be a reduction in the amount of fraud through lost and stolen cards. As I stated earlier, however, the chip and PIN programme will attack certain elements of fraud but not all of it. We do have other initiatives in the pipeline to try to address those areas as well.

On the issue of the migration from paper to electronic transactions, I have seen quoted the figure of €400 million as the benefit if the Government system migrated successfully. Presuming the Government contributes no more than one-fifth of all activity, the implication is that there is the potential in the migration from paper to electronic transactions to generate savings of €1,600 million. Where have the benefits of that massive saving emerged? Have they emerged in the profits of the banks or have they been passed on to the consumer? As a consumer, it certainly seems that there has been no reduction in charges in the system. There has been a huge saving through the technology and I would like Mr. MacKinnon to spell out who has appropriated that saving. It is not only important that we achieve the national objective of reducing transaction costs, we also need to ensure that there is a fair and competitive share-out of the benefits.

The Bank of Scotland seems to have stung many people with the comments it made. Mr. MacKinnon has made a very detailed presentation rebutting the case. The Irish banking market is extremely concentrated, with 80% of it controlled by two players. Some segments of the market are very uncompetitive and non-contested, a matter that the Competition Authority confirmed in its focus on small business and personal accounts. The clearing system network is somewhat like the telecommunications infrastructure and if we want to encourage more competition, people must be given fair access to the infrastructure. Could this be managed in a more dynamic way in order that we would open up, in an aggressive fashion, the opportunities for competition in Ireland? Can Mr. MacKinnon understand our suspicion or unease that a club of insiders is controlling the system and setting the rules - albeit that they have to obtain sanction for such rules? Is this not an unsatisfactory system?

Should the Central Bank or some entirely independent body, as opposed to the members or subsidiaries of Mr. MacKinnon's organisation or other clearing house companies, not be charged with setting the rules? Is it not unsatisfactory that information in this regard cannot be revealed? We cannot be informed what are the entry charges because such information is commercially sensitive and, as Mr. MacKinnon correctly points out, it might be seen as helping to police a cartel if that information were exchanged among his organisation's members. Should we not be aiming towards a situation where matters would be more transparent and move away from a position where people have natural concerns about a cartel operated by the group operating the current system? Could we not have a system that might be policed in a much more independent way under which the rules would be set entirely away from the influence of the players and where the costs would be up-front and transparent?

The Bank of Scotland made the point that 600,000 annual paper transactions - which is the 1% threshold - is a very high entry threshold. Contributing to some costs that have not been spelt out is a potential and major tool towards creating a barrier to entry. There is an intuitive sense that we should perhaps be opening up the network to make it much better.

I have two main questions to which I want answers, namely, are consumers getting the benefits and is there a way to get away from this suspicion that has been created by a small entrant that the way the access rules are set and developed is not the most satisfactory for managing the network on which we all depend?

Mr. MacKinnon

Deputy Bruton has raised a number of questions and I will try to deal with them one by one. The first issue to which he referred related to the movement away from paper to electronics. That was stimulated in 1998 with the publication of the Boston Consulting Group report. At that stage, the banks worked closely with the Government and highlighted, to the wider economy, the advantages in that report of a concerted movement from paper to electronic based payments. A national payments strategy was developed which required the Government to act as champion in the process and, being the larger issuer of cheques in the country, to become an intelligent user of payment services. None of that has really come to fruition in the way the Boston Consulting Group envisaged. There are a number of reasons for this. We have not really had the necessary momentum and we have not had a concerted, integrated approach by the Government. I am not stating that either IPSO or the banks has been squeaky clean in this regard; we have done our bit, but perhaps we have not done enough.

What is needed now is the involvement of all stakeholders in the business. I refer here to the Government, the regulatory authorities, the banks, people with a deep interest in payment systems and the end users, namely, customers. We must involve everyone. What we need to do is to achieve critical mass in the move from paper to electronics. It is only at that point that significant benefits will accrue to the wider economy. I do not know what is the banks' pricing policy, I have no involvement in pricing or costs. I would imagine that banks have passed on savings that they have engendered themselves from the move to electronics. However, I cannot provide figures in that regard. Overall, the plan would be that any savings in the migration from paper to electronics would be driven back into the infrastructure. In other words, we would make improvements to the electronic infrastructure to make it world class. That was the overall plan. I hope that, if we can obtain the support of this committee and resurrect Government focus on and interest in payment systems, we might deliver on it.

I believe that IPSO's rules are transparent. I spend most of my time talking to people trying to explain the role, agenda and strategic objectives of the organisation and trying to get people onside. That involves talking to Ministers, Deputies, the media and general opinion formers. Every one of them, without exception, said to me that it seems to be a "no-brainer" and that we should move from paper to electronics. However, we do not yet have the total commitment and support required.

The rules are set by the industry but they must be approved by the Central Bank. That is the key point in answer to Deputy Bruton's question. Instead of the Central Bank actually imposing the rules, the industry is developing them but they must be approved by the independent regulator before we can put them in place.

Why is that?

Mr. MacKinnon

Because the practitioners are developing the rules. They are the people who are running the systems, developing the rules and putting them before the Central Bank, as regulator, for approval.

Racing stewards would not allow horse trainers to develop their rules. The stewards set the rules and apply them. Why, in this system, are those who are being regulated setting the rules and having them signed off on by the regulator?

Mr. MacKinnon

I do not think that horseracing is a terribly good analogy.

Perhaps not.

Mr. MacKinnon

The analogy I usually employ is that of the railway system. If we imagine that IPSO and the clearing companies are responsible for the tracks, signals and points, the banks are running the trains, which are the products that they are selling and in respect of which they are actively competing, and the trains are running across the infrastructure. The latter is all about open access for any train to use. That is what we in IPSO are trying to achieve, namely, a generic infrastructure that anyone can use, that is accessible to all and that is open to all citizens.

I thank Mr. MacKinnon for his presentation, which has thrown some light on what began as an examination of why the banks were not passing on reductions in interest rates to customers. I welcome the statement at the end of the report about asking the Dáil, this committee and the Government to start the Boston process again in order to move to the next stage of electronic payments in Ireland. In the context of the large number of tech-based industries in this country and the fact that we are trying to maintain and expand our technologically friendly profile, it is appropriate that the Government should re-engage with the process. This committee has responsibility for the strategic management initiative oversight by the Dáil. I would have thought that, in terms of the reams and volumes of paper that the strategic management initiative in the Civil Service generated, the question of an electronic transmission system for the bulk of Government payments within a period would be a reasonable objective in respect of Civil Service reform. I support the request in the report.

It is difficult to get a sense of how fair, transparent and competitive is the system given that the report does not contain information about costs to the users and owners of the system and their impact on, and ultimate cost, to businesses and individuals who hold bank accounts. Mr. MacKinnon has explained why it is not within his capacity to give the committee a breakdown of the costs. There must be information regarding the cost of building and maintaining the railway. Banks track costs on everything. That key question has been mentioned, particularly by the Bank of Scotland. That bank presented evidence to the committee in an aggressive form and the chief executive, Mr. Duffy, likened himself to the Michael O'Leary of the banking system. We will see but he pointed out that the cost to the bank, however it is defined, through interaction with a members' system, was prohibitively expensive.

However, Mr. Duffy did not expand on a number of areas on which I questioned him. He commented that the bulk of his bank's administration system was not based in Ireland and I did not get an impression from him regarding the impact on jobs in the banking sector if the bank used the system, while basing its management and transmissions system outside Ireland. The committee would like an overview of the implications of a foreign institution entering the general banking system.

We began with the question of the costs of bank services to customers, large and small, and the failure of the banks to pass on lower costs. Mr. Duffy sent us a much happier letter recently, which he also sent to Mr. MacKinnon. This ties in with my second question regarding competition and passing on lower costs such as interest rate reductions to customers. A PhD and enormous energy is required to transfer one's bank account. It is a complicated matter but Mr. Duffy sent us a lovely diagram and offered to show members of the committee how the system operated. He used the example of the Halifax bank in the UK. The system sends concise information to customers who wish to change their bank because a better service is available at a cheaper rate elsewhere. Significant resources in terms of time, energy and knowledge are not required. This is a legitimate question in the context of competition. Mr. MacKinnon disputes the Central Bank SSIA competition investigation. Will he elaborate on what effect that will have on the clearing system?

He referred to the governance system and the recent appointment of two non-executive directors. Are they more suits or are they representative of the business community or ordinary account holders? Non-executive directors were part of a Masonic closed shop until recently and few women were included. The appointment of non-executive directors is a good move. Will Mr. MacKinnon elaborate on the governance system? I welcome the proposals, which should be examined by the committee, and I would like to know how IPSO is getting on with the Bank of Scotland and whether the relationship is much sweeter than it was in July.

Mr. MacKinnon

I am pleased the Deputy likes my suggestion about a national forum and sees a role for the committee in taking that forward. I will begin with her final question. I started reviewing governance in IPSO when I took up the job more than two years ago with the full support of the members. The Deputy will be pleased to hear my chairman is a lady and there is one other woman on the board. Payment systems are changing and new players are coming on board. For instance, the mobile telephone will become a great payment system and the Nokias of this world are involved in strategic ventures with banks to make the mobile telephone a payment system. New players are coming in and many people are interested in the payments value chain. We felt we needed a wider perspective and the board decided to advertise for non-executive directors who could provide that. It was also a move to promote the openness and transparency of IPSO and to recognise more people were involved in payment systems than the banks themselves.

We advertised in the national daily newspapers and received 47 replies. All who applied could have done the job admirably. We had a small selection panel, including myself, and we picked two people who, strangely, came from the same walk of life. The first was John Horgan, formerly managing partner in Ernst & Young, and the second was Paul Cummins, who was formerly with PricewaterhouseCoopers but is now an IT and multimedia consultant. Their combined and individual strengths will add to the future governance of IPSO. We have held our first board meeting, in which both took part, and they have challenged the banking members on the board as to our future direction and on other issues that were raised.

The Deputy asked how we are getting on with the Bank of Scotland. We have had three meetings with the bank. We had one with the chief executive, Mark Duffy, and we had two follow up sessions with his staff. We have explained the rules and regulations to him and his staff and we have explained the way he can take forward an application to join any of the clearing companies, if he so wishes. We suggested that he should write to the two companies formally, if he is interested in joining, and outline a clearing plan, which basically says what his volume of cheques is likely to be between now and, say, five years' time. This is for capacity planning reasons and is not competitive information. I would find it very strange that anyone could use it for competitive purposes. As Mr. Duffy said in his letter, I certainly have no axe to grind with him and I do not think he has any to grind with me. I would hope to deal in future with Bank of Scotland Ireland outside this forum or outside a goldfish bowl in terms of media coverage.

What are the implications for the Irish system of more banks entering the Irish market from either the United Kingdom or Europe and the emphasis in terms of competition on the capacity of customers to switch? Mr. Duffy was not completely forthcoming to us about the employment implications of the specific type of operation the Bank of Scotland runs. I am interested to know if Mr. MacKinnon has any views on the implications for the Irish system. As I understand it, at present the operation of the Irish system and the tracks are all in Ireland.

Mr. MacKinnon

That is correct.

We are aware of the discussions between Bank of Ireland and Hewlett Packard regarding placing some stuff in Leixlip and so on. I am interested in this issue because banks are significant employers in Ireland. I am also interested in the implications for employment of the changes in competition in Ireland so that we can get a picture of what costs are passed on to customers and the implications for some of the changes that are proposed as assisting competition.

Mr. MacKinnon

That is one of the questions we have asked Bank of Scotland Ireland. We have asked it how, if it was admitted to membership, it would intend processing payments. That is one of the questions to which we expect Mark Duffy to respond.

Is it correct to say that Bank of Scotland has not answered yet?

Mr. MacKinnon

It has not been answered yet because we are still waiting on a formal letter of application.

As the Deputy said, the current arrangements - the tracks - are in Ireland. I would have thought that there is nothing to stop a bank with electronic payments locating the hub for these remotely. When I worked in London, some banks accessed the London system from Frankfurt. Communications and technology are such these days that location is irrelevant. However, where manual processes and jobs are involved, we are talking about location in Dublin. However, with electronics, the system can be located anywhere as far as I am concerned.

Is it Mr. MacKinnon's assertion that the IPSO system and the criteria operated for entry to the system are the exact same as those operated in the United Kingdom? Some, including Mr. Duffy in his latest communication, assert that they are not exactly the same and that there are differences.

Regarding the requirement that a bank wishing to enter the system must present a business plan, Mr. MacKinnon has asserted to the committee that it is merely an issue of capacity planning for the IPSO. I am interested to know at what level that information is shared among existing members. There is something wrong with that if it is shared with the other members, which are competitor banks. Mr. MacKinnon may dismiss knowledge of capacity as irrelevant but I believe from my experience in industry that, if a competitor knows precisely on a year on year basis for five years what level or capacity of business a company intends to conduct in a specific marketplace, that is vital commercial information. In effect, it allows a competitor bank to plan its own marketing strategy in support of its capacity with a real-time view of the capacity in business anticipated by the competition. I view it as a serious issue if other banks within this system have access to the capacity planning of an applicant bank.

Mr. Duffy asserts that the entire business plan must be shared. Mr. MacKinnon clearly stated that it is only the capacity levels that are required. Mr. Duffy still makes that assertion about the business plan in his communication with us since his previous appearance before the committee. It is important to obtain clarification on that. Is the capacity planning relating to cheque volumes or use of the system shared with competitor banks?

The other issue is the sum cost. I am still bewildered by the need for a sum cost entry fee. Mr. MacKinnon has dismissed Mr. Duffy's claim that this is some form of strange or elite club from which small operators are excluded. It is rather like a golf club in the old days. In the old days a person paid a sum cost - an upfront fee - as well as his or her recurring membership fee to be a member of a golf club and there was no expectation of retrieving that fee once it was paid. These days, if a person wants to join a newly established, modern golf club, the tradition is that he or she pays an upfront fee that is recoverable. In other words, it is like a share in the golf club.

It appears to me that the sum cost, even if it is operated elsewhere in the world and is no different, is still a significant barrier to entry in terms of affordability. It does not add to existing services and is not a development charge. If it was for the future development of the system, it could be justified. It is cast or depicted as a sum cost just for work done previously which does not need to be used at present. It appears to me like a real barrier to entry.

I would be especially interested to hear the sum cost as a percentage relative to the UK. While the sum cost in Ireland may not appear to Mr. MacKinnon like a barrier, in the Irish market where there is not a huge appetite on the part of large or even medium sized institutions to enter and compete because of the small number of customers, a large sum cost entry fee is a real barrier whereas it may not be in the UK where an operator is gaining access to tens of millions of potential customers.

In terms of the ownership structure and the Government involvement in it, is it Mr. MacKinnon's view of reform that there should be a non-aligned structure in place where the system is an independently operated infrastructure or that there should be a regulator of the system? Clearly there are disputes about it and the traditional habit of the Government in terms of reforming infrastructure of this nature is to appoint a regulator.

Deputy Richard Bruton referred to the telecommunications industry of which I have some knowledge. The decision in that regard was to appoint a regulator to govern access. We also have an aviation regulator because disputes similar to those raised by Mr. Duffy have arisen in the aviation sector concerning the fees charged at different airports.

Mr. MacKinnon

The first question was whether our access criteria are the same as the UK's or if there are differences. I stated in the presentation that there is one difference, namely, the 1% minimum volume criterion. The British banks have dispensed with that quite recently in their rules. We have retained it in paper clearing only. It does not apply in other clearings.

The second question concerned whether a business plan or clearing plan was required. The rules state that it is a clearing plan. in other words, we want to know for capacity planning reasons only what the volumes are today and what they will be in five years' time. It is essential for capacity planning, especially if a large player is entering the market.

Is that information shared with the other competitor banks?

Mr. MacKinnon

It must be shared with other banks. They must know the figure to accommodate it within their systems. It is not competitive information. It does not indicate the number of accounts——

It indicates the range of business that will be done. It is obvious if the percentage is shared for an actuarial calculation of the impact on systems.

Mr. MacKinnon

It is academic at present. A case has never arisen. No one has applied for membership. A clearing plan has not been submitted to the clearing companies by anyone as yet. My own feeling is that——

What Chinese walls are in place to prevent abuse of that information by onward sharing to people who plan marketing and strategy within the individual banks?

Mr. MacKinnon

Perhaps you could explain why we would need Chinese walls and how someone could make competitive use of information on volumes.

They could do so. It is quite simple. If I happen to know what a competitor is planning to roll out in terms of capacity I then have inside knowledge about the nature of the marketing and resource support he or she will put behind a competitive challenge in the marketplace. It is very simple, it is not rocket science.

Mr. MacKinnon

One could do that by checking volumes?

Yes. We are talking about a situation where there is lack of competition.

Mr. MacKinnon

In terms of numbers of accounts I could see it being highly competitive information but not in relation to the checking of volumes of payments going through the system.

I am open to being convinced.

Mr. MacKinnon

The owners of a system, let us take IRIS——

You do not think there is a need for Chinese walls on that information.

Mr. MacKinnon

I would not have thought so. That is my personal opinion and not that of the company. This has never arisen before. We have received no applications for membership.

Are the figures which existing members are projecting for the next five years equally available to entrants and other members or is it only entrants who have to show five year projections? That is the acid test.

Mr. MacKinnon

Existing volumes would be known. The existing percentage market share would be known because that is how we fund the company.

Would that be available to the entrant?

Mr. MacKinnon

Yes. Funding of the company is based on volumes. I do not see a competitive issue arising in terms of volumes.

I asked another question about sum costs.

Mr. MacKinnon

As I said earlier in my presentation, the sunk costs are de minimis in terms of the amount looked for, if any. The boards of the clearing companies have flexibility whether they apply any of the criteria. The sunk costs will be very low. Whether a company applies them is a matter for each company to decide. The key issue is impact costs.

That is a fair charge.

Mr. MacKinnon

Yes, it is fair.

Are you saying the sunk cost will not always apply?

Mr. MacKinnon

I am saying that the boards of companies have flexibility on whether to apply the criteria. It is my view that the cost are de minimis at the moment.

So the sum cost charge is minimal?

Mr. MacKinnon

Yes.

We are operating in the dark.

That is contrary to what Mr. Duffy of the Bank of Scotland had to say when meeting us in July. That delegation left me with the firm impression in relation to the entry cost into the market cost in Ireland and made specific reference to the sum cost. It appears from what we are now hearing that the Bank of Scotland is one of the few banks to have requested entry to the system and to have had protracted discussions with you.

Mr. MacKinnon

The Bank of Scotland has not yet asked for entry.

They still have not asked?

Mr. MacKinnon

They have not formally applied as yet.

Do you now think the question of sunk costs should be a serious impediment to their entry?

Mr. MacKinnon

I would not have thought sunk costs are a serious impediment. As I said in the presentation a de minimis element would be chargeable. The key cost for a new member is their investment in their own infrastructure.

That enables them to ramp up to the equivalent system and they also have the impact cost on other banks of their volumes?

Mr. MacKinnon

That is correct.

What is the point of the sunk cost if it is de minimis? Does one have to join the club?

Mr. MacKinnon

There was never any club. These rules were established in 1997. Things change.

What is the point in having the sum cost?

Mr. MacKinnon

The incumbent members have obviously contributed quite significant resources in developing the systems, the rules, the standards and the service level agreements. A great deal of time and money were spent doing that. The rules provide for the board to charge an element of that. That is merely a provision. It is my belief that the boards would agree it is a de minimis figure.

We will move on.

Members of the joint committee received a copy of Mr. Duffy's letter which, he stated, was also sent to you. Page 2, paragraph 3, of that letter states:

While I believe that IPSO are genuine in these discussions and in their desire to reform their current overall structure I wonder whether they would be as accommodating to a weaker bank and if the banking industry was not under the type of scrutiny that it currently is. My point is that while we may gain access because of this favourable situation it remains that IPSO's rules of entry are genuine barriers and their own attempts at reform reflect that they tacitly acknowledge this. Their rules place new entrants in the unfair position of having to share their business plans with the very competitors they wish to take business from, just to gain entry. Then when they gain entry, the ownership structure means that they can be out-voted on every issue that may impact on the existing banks, without any right of appeal.

In our view this explains why there have been no new entrants. I question the commitment of the banks who are IPSO members to reform through an internal process and I maintain our stance that an independent process, outside the control of the banks, is required to reform these inequalities.

The information Mr. MacKinnon has given us so far is helpful but we still do not have an answer to the fundamental points they raised and which they said impacted severely on costs to Irish bank customers, large and small. That is the point we were discussing. I do not expect Mr. MacKinnon to reply to that here but it goes to the net argument before this committee in the context of the cost of bank services and banks not doing certain things for their customers which was our starting point.

That is something on which the committee, when drafting its report, can reach a conclusion. No matter what organisation one is a member of, a new entrant should not expect to out-vote everybody else in the system. The letter can be read in two ways in that Mr. Duffy should not be able to out-vote anyone else. We will exercise judgment on this issue.

I also raised this question in relation to the Bank of Scotland's presentation because I was not satisfied with the level of information it supplied. For instance, it never addressed the issue of job implications and the wider impact on the Irish banking market. I am trying to reach a position whereby the joint committee obtains useful information.

Mr. MacKinnon

I was not going to mention the Bank of Scotland letter today. I understood the discussions between ourselves and the Bank of Scotland were confidential. As Mr. Duffy has written to the committee, I feel obliged to respond. What Mr. Duffy is talking about when he says ". . . I believe IPSO are genuine in these discussions and in their desire to reform their current overall structure . . ." is IPSO's governing structure, not the clearing company's structure. That has not changed. In other words, we have taken on two independent directors to the IPSO board. We are making no other changes and that is not a response to anything which the Bank of Scotland may do or has done in the past. I do not tacitly acknowledge that there are any barriers to entry into systems in Ireland. The procedures to be followed by an applicant institution are the same in Ireland as in the UK so that the Bank of Scotland should be familiar with them.

I thank Mr. MacKinnon for his presentation.

I am sorry to interrupt, Senator Mansergh, but we were due to deal with an EU scrutiny proposal before lunch. I have asked the relevant officials to attend the meeting at 2 p.m. We will then move on to debate carbon energy tax. We will conclude our debate on this issue before lunch.

Some aspects of Mr. MacKinnon's presentation come as something of a revelation. In view of the developments in terms of the letter from Bank of Scotland, other members of the committee should be at least open to the hypothesis that the bank's presentation here had quite a strong public relations aspect to it and this was a way of publicising its arrival on the scene. I would have an open mind as to the rights and wrongs of a dispute that appears to be heading in the direction of a settlement as we speak.

I would like to return to questions the Chairman raised at the beginning in regard to cheques and electronic clearance. I am paid by cheque and when I am here I do not have immediate access to my home branch in Tipperary. If, for example, I just go to a bank branch on St. Stephen's Green, is there a technical reason it should take two or three days to clear that cheque? The argument has been that this restriction is meant to deter people from using cheque payments. The recipient of a cheque is often not in control of how people pay. In instances where a person can opt for electronic payment they are in control but in many cases a person receives a cheque and is not in a position to demand some other form of payment. In that sense the sender is not being punished by the banks but is almost being rewarded as the payment is not instantly taken from the account until some days later. Why, in this day and age, is this length of time required for clearance? If people do not have enough money in their account they are stopped instantly from withdrawing from it. In most other banking transactions reaction is instant.

My second question regards Government payments. It is anomalous that a pay cheque is paid electronically but all other payments come by order. It was a revelation that an order for payment is not the same as a cheque. At a practical level let us take the agricultural area as an example. As far as I know, all premiums paid by the Department of Agriculture and Food are paid by cheque rather than electronically. Some farmers do not have bank accounts and therefore it could not be done electronically vis-à-vis everyone. It may also have been calculated that people somehow feel psychologically more grateful for a cheque than for the confirmation of an electronically received payment. There is clearly scope in the Government payment system to speed up payments.

As consumers we have uses for cheques. Can it be confirmed that people will still be allowed to retain the cheque payment system in instances where it is useful? For example, I met a colleague coming into Leinster House by bicycle. Just because the car and many other forms of transport exist does not mean that people should not be free to choose to cycle. Similarly, it is part of the consumer's freedom to be able to use a cheque. It is difficult to foresee alternatives to a cheque being possible or feasible or as convenient to use with some farming sector transactions. If people go to a farm to buy half a dozen bales of hay or silage, the obvious way to pay is to write a cheque. To do something electronically would be far more complicated. May I have confirmation that the cheque system will be retained?

I would like to raise one final question. I already raised this with AIB but consider the answer I got most unsatisfactory. We used not to be members of the euro zone because it did not exist and for certain transactions such as ordering a journal printed in France one could write a cheque instead of having to go and get a draft or something of that nature. Since we joined the euro we are no longer able to write such cheques although we have precisely the same currency as other countries in the euro zone. AIB said that this was something to do with the superior quality of the clearing system here and incompatibilities. I do not accept that. This convenient facility has been taken away from the consumer and I would like to see the ability to write cheques throughout the euro zone being restored. Why is it not possible? Consumer choice is being removed in that regard.

Mr. MacKinnon

Thank you Senator Mansergh. There were some interesting comments there. In regard to Government payments vis-à-vis agriculture, the technology is there and the Department of Agriculture and Food could make electronic payments to farmers if it wished. It is on its agenda to do so. There is a cultural thing about carrying a cheque in one’s pocket and flashing it in the local public house. That is something that must be managed going forward.

Customer choice is a key issue and I do not think the banks will ever withdraw the cheque facility in its entirety. There will be uses for the cheque, such as the farmer to farmer transactions mentioned by the Senator, which cannot be replaced by electronic means. The mobile phone may provide a way of making person to person payments in the future.

In regard to cross-border cheques in the euro zone, AIB is correct in what it says. There is no European infrastructure to clear cheques in the European community. Most European countries have done away with retail cheques. Belgium and Finland have almost got rid of cheques apart from a few business cheques which remain. Some of the countries decided, with the approval of their governments, from 1 January 2002, that they would do away with retail cheques. The cheque instrument——

What do they use instead?

Mr. MacKinnon

They use electronic payments or cash or card based payments. Bills can actually be paid in Finland through the ATM. The bill will be read at the ATM, the account will be debited and the payment will be made electronically to the company.

The Bank of Scotland has suggested that this committee visit the United Kingdom to see the situation there. I think Finland is probably the role model at which we should look. Perhaps the committee should take a trip to Dún Laoghaire also at the invitation of IPSO. Joking aside, the cheque is an instrument which will disappear. It has largely disappeared in Europe and it will happen here, although it will still be available longer term.

There was a question regarding the clearing cycle. If a person cannot get to his or her branch in County Tipperary can he or she lodge his or her cheque in Dublin? Let us take AIB as an example. If the person lodges an AIB cheque to an AIB account at an AIB branch he or she will get same day value for it. If it is payment to another bank the clearing cycle must be used and it will be three working days before it is lodged in the account.

Is it true that all banks clear their own cheques even those relating to an account elsewhere in the country on a same day basis?

Mr. MacKinnon

My colleague tells me that it varies between banks. However I know the desire of all banks is to move towards that situation of same day value for their own paper - in other words, intra bank paper.

As it is now after 1 o'clock, we will conclude. I want to pick up on one point relating to the letter from the Bank of Scotland inviting us to view the clearing system in the UK. I suggest we postpone consideration of that until our next meeting.

If there were any question of taking up that offer, I would prefer if it were done in the context of a broader understanding of the Irish system. I was merely drawing attention to that.

I appreciate that and Mr. MacKinnon has mentioned an invitation. Perhaps he should extend a formal invitation to members of the committee who would benefit from seeing those arrangements before we go to another country.

Mr. MacKinnon

That would involve a visit to individual banks. As I have said, there is no central infrastructure in Dublin.

You could set out what would be involved.

Mr. MacKinnon

I will certainly have a chat with the practitioners and see what might be suitable.

That would be good. I thank Mr. MacKinnon and Mr. O'Mahony for attending today's meeting. We found your contributions helpful and informative. It was beneficial to the committee members in our deliberations on the banking sector.

Sitting suspended at 1.10 p.m. and resumed at 2.20 p.m.
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