JOINT COMMITTEE ON FINANCE AND THE PUBLIC SERVICE debate -
Wednesday, 23 Jun 2004

Media Development: Presentation.

Acting-Chairman

On behalf of the Joint Committee, I extend a warm welcome to our colleagues from the new media development sub-committee of the German Parliament, led by Mr. Jorg Tauss and his delegation. The Chairman of the Joint Committee, Deputy Seán Fleming, sends his apologies for his inability to attend the meeting. The Chairman has an unavoidable engagement that could not be deferred.

I understand that the delegation has a particular interest in issues surrounding the information society. In Ireland we see it as important to keep ourselves at the forefront of the development of the information society. The promotion of e-Government is central to that development. There are a number of high level groups spearheading the promotion of IT policy, namely, a dedicated Cabinet committee, strategy and implementation groups at the highest administrative levels, as well an independent advisory group, the Information Society Commission. This commission provides expert advice to Government and monitors Ireland's progress as an information society. The information society fund supports the achievement of objectives set out in the Government's 1999 action plan and €43 million was made available to that fund in 2003.

The committee is happy to deal with any issues the delegation would like to raise on this and other topics. I call on Mr. Tauss to introduce the delegation and address the committee and we will the proceed by way of an informal discussion.

Mr. Jorg Tauss

Thank you very much for having taken the time to meet us this afternoon. I would like to present my delegation. Dr. Guntar Krings and Dr. Ole Schröder are from the opposition Christian Democrat Party. I am in a minority here as I come from the Social Democrat Party. To my right is Mr. Christopher Speer who is the secretary of our sub-committee, and Mr. Joachim Heidorn from the German Embassy.

We really like coming to Ireland and in the last few months it has been the centre of the EU. We have read all the reports that came from its Presidency. We have to say that we admire how the Presidency was administered. Ireland tackled the big issues and found a solution to the very big question on the draft constitution. That was a great political achievement and we recognise that. However, we did not come here today to discuss the big political topics, but to talk about something which interests our sub-committee and that is new media.

This is a sub-committee of the main committee for culture and media. In Germany all federal Länder deal with media. We are mostly interested in the Internet and digatilisation. With the globalisation of information technology, we can no longer follow the old rules that applied to analogue technology. The information society has many aspects but we have recently discussed special topics such as digital signatures, the laws and regulations for multi-media and data protection. In particular, we have also dealt with the use of the most modern technology in parliament which we now call e-government or e-parliament.

We are amazed that a finance committee here would deal with IT. In Germany, this is not the case. We have to be cautious with the finance committee in Germany because it puts on the brakes very often. It has to look at the budget and often demands fewer developments in IT. This finance committee is therefore a dream for us. We would like to hear the ideas of the committee on IT and new media. This is all I wanted to say as an introduction and I thank the committee once again for meeting us. I see one of the members is laughing — perhaps it is not such a dream that the committee must concern itself with IT.

Senator White

How did Mr. Tauss guess?

Senator O’Toole

I would like to exchange some information with the delegation and perhaps learn something from it. The Deputy-Chairman and I attended a conference on media in Geneva last December. Was the delegation there also?

Mr. Tauss

Unfortunately not. There was an Opposition vote in the German Parliament and our support was needed.

Senator O’Toole

In Ireland we call that minding the shop. The meeting of which I speak was a session of the UN conference on media and broadband, which was concerned specifically with e-government and e-parliament. We spent two hours at this conference and it was an utter waste of time. I have found an absolute resistance to e-government and e-parliament everywhere, mainly created by middle-aged males who are completely opposed to any development in that area.

The delegation will observe that there are modem connections directly in front of them which look impressive but connect to nothing. This is the kind of difficulty one encounters. Do members of the delegation use laptops in Chamber? When they move from one stage of the development of a Bill to the next, do they receive a hard copy or are amendments incorporated into the electronic copy? Is there a live feed always on broadband at each Member's position in the Parliament Chamber? Can Members receive information on their laptop while sitting in Parliament?

These are the questions which parliamentarians will not discuss. They will only discuss high principles. Each time I produce my laptop in the Chamber, I am told that it will interfere with the microphones. I wish to discuss these down-to-earth matters as well as issues regarding access to broadband nationwide in Germany.

Mr. Tauss

We must distinguish between the plenary meeting room and the Parliament. I came to the Parliament in 1994 and this was the first time Members had access to e-mail addresses, websites and laptops. The subsequent move from Bonn to Berlin meant that Members got a lot of new equipment and everything was modernised significantly. Our Members are quite well equipped with modern electronic facilities but one question in Germany is how we can bring these new technologies closer to our citizens and interest the latter in parliamentary work. We are also concerned with how we may interconnect the specialist groupings and committees with parliamentary Members and vice versa, all through electronic means.

Senator O’Toole

I am still unclear on one issue which is crucially important to me. Parliamentarians must be the role models for technology usage. What percentage of German parliamentarians use their electronic equipment on a daily basis? There is a difficulty in Europe in presenting role models; middle-aged parliamentarians often consider IT the domain of younger people or of their secretaries.

Dr. Guntar Krings

I agree that it is crucial for parliamentarians to set an example in this regard. More and more of our number, even among the middle-aged males, are using computer technologies. It is difficult to estimate the percentage — perhaps 60% or 70%, but not all are using it to the same extent. Bills are sent by e-mail but that is it. E-mail is used primarily as a means of communication. We do not, for example, take advantage of the capability for cumulatively inserting text.

As a group of young parliamentarians, we are still planning for the time when we can bring our laptops into Parliament with us. The Bundestag provides each Member with a laptop but it is explicitly forbidden to use them in plenary session. In any case, there are no power connections for the laptops at the Chamber seats. Even in committees, where laptops are permitted, they are rarely used Mr. Tauss, Dr. Schröder and I are some of the few who sometimes bring our laptops to committee sessions. Our computer system is on a high level and is well protected against fraud but it is a complex system and difficult to address failures and so on. Therefore I use my private laptop and connect it to a telephone line because I am fed up with the system that is used.

Senator O’Toole

I do the same thing.

Dr. Krings

Progress is taking place. Last week I spoke to a parliamentary colleague in his mid-50s who told me that is he is, of necessity, learning how to use computers. The progress is slow, however, and technology usage is far behind that pertaining in private industry. We must do better and we must be to the forefront in encouraging other Government Departments to do the same.

Last year a group of young parliamentarians of my party, which included Dr. Schröder and I, invited Mr. Mart Laar, former Prime Minister of Estonia, to Germany. He introduced computer technology to the Estonian Parliament eight years ago, one component of which was that Cabinet meetings were conducted entirely without paper. This strategy was heavily criticised as it was feared the debate would suffer as Members struggled to cope with the technology. The result was quite different. The use of computers meant that discussions went more smoothly and documents appeared on screen immediately. A great deal of efficiency can be achieved from their increased usage, and we can convince other Government departments to make greater use of modern technologies and media.

Senator O’Toole

As a result of this meeting we should write to our respective Parliaments to outline our consensus view that e-parliament means introducing modem connections and an option of paperless operation in our Chambers.

Deputy Lynch

The clerk might get carried away. The consensus is of one. We have yet to hear the rest of the arguments.

Senator O’Toole

I never expected to get support on the issue.

Acting-Chairman

We made use of the electronic system in the DIRT inquiry. Currently an e-legislative system is being tested in Leinster House, and the issue of inserting amendments is under consideration as part of that system also. All parliamentary questions are received and replied to electronically. All debates and legislation passed since the foundation of the State are available on the Internet. Therefore there has been progress in this area.

The German delegation will receive a CD-ROM and will meet with the Joint Committee on Communications, Marine and Natural Resources which might provide more technical information. This committee's involvement in the area of new media is on the fringe. However this committee takes great interest in the matter. We have a responsibility to the Department of the Taoiseach, but the delegation may explore the area further with the Joint Committee on Communications, Marine and Natural Resources.

Dr. OIe Schröder

Thank you for making these points. There is a big gap between our aims for citizens and what we practise in Parliament. That is true of the German Parliament, and we should be setting a good example. The problem is that people prefer to print all their documents. The Estonian Government has enacted a statute prohibiting printers altogether.

There is also a risk of leaks to the media as a result of printing, faxing or e-mailing. That is a substantial problem in the German Parliament and in our practical work. It is interesting that the Irish Parliament has the same problems.

Mr. Tauss

These problems exist everywhere. There was a deputy in the German Parliament who used his screen as a memory board, putting post-its on it and writing down his private notes. That is an extreme case, and very expensive.

What is the committee's opinion regarding the provision of an electronic system for everyone? We would be quite willing to make a submission to Geneva which can be done either in hard copy or through electronic means.

Deputy Lynch

I welcome the delegation. This subject is of interest to us all, despite the fact that neither I nor Senator White claims to be either male or middle-aged. Ireland has made notable advances relating to electronic communications. About four years ago, Ennis was chosen as the broadband town of the future and every household received a computer.

I represent a constituency that as a result of the redrawing of boundaries is now a mixed constituency. Previously it was deprived. However, at Christmas almost every second home received a computer as a present. These were not merely used for electronic games — households had the Internet. It might not be used to look up Aristotle or the Maternity Protection Act or new traffic laws, but people were capable of using it.

A recent report stated that Ireland had the highest ratio of mobile phone users in Europe. There is a direct connection between that sort of electronic instrument and the type of e-government and electronic communications we are discussing. However, it will take time to make that connection.

I use my computer all of the time to look up information and contact people. However, I would hate it if every Deputy in Dáil Éireann had a laptop in front of him or her instead of debating the issues, that instead of preparing a script or researching legislation we would communicate with each other through laptops. I appreciate that is not what the delegation is suggesting, but ultimately that is what would happen.

There is a difficulty relating to the roll-out of broadband in Ireland, and the situation is possibly the same in Germany. The way in which the German Parliament has organised it is probably correct, because broadband and how we communicate with one another is a European issue as opposed to a single state issue.

Our difficulty is that the current Government privatised Telecom, the then sole communications company. We now have an urgent need for broadband but the providers, or the people who should provide, are now in the private sector and the State no longer has control over them. We cannot force them to roll out broadband. We could have done so when we controlled the provider but we can no longer do it. The State simply regulates. In many ways, regulation is all that is ever necessary. In this instance, broadband is similar to health or education — it will be an essential tool in the future. However, the State no longer controls the mechanism by which to produce. How would the delegation suggest dealing with that difficulty?

The Irish are very literate with regard to electronic communications, possibly more so than other countries. A friend of mine says that television should provide everything, and while the advertisements are playing one can do some work. That is the ultimate deprivation and should not happen. There is a place for it and it is necessary to develop it for the future but it should not replace what we are, rather than give us additional information and resources.

Dr. Krings

The focus in Germany is different. We care about infrastructure but our broadband infrastructure is probably much better than the Irish one. My priority is the content and how we use computers.

When the first telegraph connection between Kentucky and Boston was established more than a century ago a famous American author said Kentucky and Boston might not have anything meaningful to communicate. We must be careful that we do not lose content in favour of infrastructure. Content is a more private matter, not necessarily a matter for politicians. In the areas where we can provide content, for example when the parliament and government provide information, they should set a good example.

I am not so sceptical about the use of laptops in Parliament. When I was elected 18 months ago to the German Parliament, at the same time as Dr. Schröder, I was appointed to the legal affairs committee which deals with substantial Bills and motions covering thousands of pages in every session. In the first months I brought all this paperwork with me and needed two cases to carry it. When I looked around I realised nobody else was doing this. It was silly because everything happened so quickly. Now I do not bring the material with me. If I have a laptop the information will be there.

The question of using or not using a laptop comes down to the issue of being able to look things up or not. In a more complex world Parliament needs such instruments to do its work. Now I bring the laptop with the information because without it I would not be able to look something up in the Bill or the motion. It is an important instrument and does not reduce our discussions or destroy the debate but is a platform for extending the debate.

My vision of future parliaments is not of people sitting in a room typing e-mails and communicating in that silent way. There would continue to be discussion and debate but speakers would be more relevant and very quickly bring up facts and figures. It should facilitate work in Parliament as well as in Government Departments. Our views are not so different.

Deputy Lynch

We are not so far apart.

Deputy Twomey

Any technology that makes life easier will be used, whether in the private or the public sectors. For example, we can pay tax on-line.

People say information technology diminishes the content of debate. I am a doctor in general practice and when computers were first introduced to the practice of medicine people said they would destroy the art of communication and the consultation, but they did not. There was a change at the outset whereby doctors treated the computer as the questions came up but, once they ignored that, the technology improved the efficiency of the practice. It does change the business because a paperless practice is very different from the traditional practice but once people grow accustomed to it nothing changes. Many technical legal procedures are carried out on the Internet but this does not change the results.

On the negative side in medicine, our health service is run by health boards, many of which use different software so they cannot communicate with each other electronically. Likewise, hospitals use different software from that used by general practitioners and cannot easily transmit letters from consultants to GPs. It is not that we cannot use the technology but that the software is incompatible. If the Government's grand plan for the Department of Health and Children to connect up the software for the health boards gets going and makes life easier, patients and doctors will use it. The same applies to Parliament. If it makes life easier it will take off.

Mr. Tauss

I thank the committee very much. I do not want to cut short the discussion but we are due to attend the Joint Committee on Communications, Marine and Natural Resources and unfortunately must finish here. Perhaps we can continue our discussion some day by e-mail and exchange information. I thank the Deputy-Chairman. We have brought him a small gift, a medallion from the Bundestag and a CD with the music of Schumann.

Acting-Chairman

I thank the visitors very much.