JOINT COMMITTEE ON FINANCE AND THE PUBLIC SERVICE debate -
Wednesday, 23 Jun 2004

Business of Joint Committee.

Acting-Chairman

Three statutory instruments have been sent to the joint committee by the Department of Finance. Under the committee's orders of reference, it has the power to consider such statutory instruments made by the Minister for Finance and laid before both Houses as it may select. The time within which the House can annul statutory instruments is limited to 21 sitting days after the regulation is laid.

SI 254/ 2004 was laid before the Houses on 15 June to enable the Customs and Excise (Mutual Assistance) Act 2001 and the Customs Co-operation Convention to have full effect. The legislation under which these regulations are made requires a resolution approving of the draft regulations to be passed by each House before they can come into effect. The House referred the draft regulations to the committee earlier this year and they were discussed on 24 March with the Minister of State at the Department of Finance, Deputy Parlon. It was reported to the Houses by way of message. In these circumstances I propose that the committee note the final regulations. Is that agreed? Agreed.

SI 373/ 2004 was laid before both Houses on 15 June. The instrument appoints 1 July for the coming into operation of Chapter 1 of Part 2 of the Finance Act 2003 which consolidates and modernises the excise law on alcohol products. The 21 day probationary period does not apply as is the norm for commencement of these provisions. I propose that the committee should not further consider this statutory instrument. Is that agreed? Agreed.

SI 381/2004 was laid before the Houses on 22 June. The statutory instrument will allow the Commissioner for Valuations to charge a fee in respect of requests for the revision of rateable valuations. A 21 day probationary period applies. Does the committee wish to consider this statutory instrument?

Senator O’Toole

Who bears that cost?

Acting-Chairman

The person seeking the valuation will pay the fee. Under the legislation, people are entitled to a review of their right of evaluation.

Deputy Twomey

What is the scale of costs?

Senator O’Toole

Exorbitant.

Acting-Chairman

They are set out in the regulations. Applications for a revision to the commission as provided for under section 27 of the Valuation Act 2001 cost €150. It is proposed that each additional entry on the valuation list resulting from an application, referred to at the reference number one, will cost €250.

Senator O’Toole

Will that be much of an increase? Does this concern someone appealing a rate of evaluation?

Acting-Chairman

To my knowledge people engage firms to appeal rates of evaluation. This statutory instrument concerns a fee being paid to the Valuation Office. I suggest the committee should request a briefing note from the Department of Finance.

Senator O’Toole

It is hard to know if it is a significant change or otherwise until we know what was there before.

Deputy Twomey

I agree because when an individual gets an valuation figure, it is always queried. Will people be now requested to send a cheque of €250 with an initial query?

Acting-Chairman

A briefing note will be requested on this matter to be available for the next meeting.

There are two letters concerning recent events at AIB. A reply has been received from Mr. Michael Buckley, AIB group chief executive, to a request from the committee for his comments on Ms Dorothea Dowling's concerns on the rate of commission charged by the AIB on credit protection insurance products. The comments of the Irish Financial Services Regulatory Authority and the Irish Bankers' Federation have also been sought and their replies are awaited. I suggest that Mr. Buckley's letter be noted at this stage and be reviewed when the other replies have been received. Is that agreed?

Senator O’Toole

I agree because Deputies Richard Bruton and Burton are keenly interested in contributing to a discussion on that issue.

Acting-Chairman

Agreed.

A letter from an individual in County Leitrim has been referred to the committee by the Committee of Public Accounts. The correspondent believes he was overcharged by the AIB for the clearance of a euro cheque. I propose that the committee reply to the correspondent informing him that the committee is not investigating specific incidents of alleged overcharging by the AIB, but is more focused on the general cultural and organisational issues arising from recent events at AIB. I recommend that he bring his concerns to the attention of the Irish Financial Services Regulatory Authority. Is that agreed?

Senator O’Toole

It is not the committee's role to investigate such a matter. However, can the committee forward the letter to the Irish Financial Services Regulatory Authority and inform the correspondent of the action taken?

Acting-Chairman

I see no problem with that.

Deputy Nolan

I have no difficulty with what was proposed. However, will passing on information to the Irish Financial Services Regulatory Authority encourage others to write to the committee in the belief that it will give them a better chance of immediate action from the authority?

Deputy Twomey

The Irish Financial Services Regulatory Authority informed this committee that there are four different organisations looking after corporate governance of which many members were not aware. The committee should not close that door to people who may not be as knowledgeable. It is not such a big deal to refer on letters. The Irish Financial Services Regulatory Authority frequently receives letters of this kind and will send them on to the appropriate authorities. If it is not sent on, the person may feel that the system is against him or her.

Acting-Chairman

This person has not made any allegation of malpractice in his letter but states that he was overcharged. There will be no problem in sending on a copy of the letter. Is it agreed that the committee should do so?

Senator O’Toole

At the last meeting, when the committee was discussing the AIB issue I raised the issue of foreign exchanges, particularly as there is no European cheque clearing system despite the Common Market. The same would apply if it were a cheque from France, which can take up to six weeks to clear, with a substantial charge.

There is another issue I would like clarified. There is an increasing number of websites where one can do business within Europe, but on certain websites, particularly those dealing in airline bookings, one can make purchases only if one's credit card is issued in a specific country. That is anti-competitive and does not accord with the Treaty of Rome regarding the free movement of capital and so on between countries. The issue also involves Visa cards. I do not want to open a major debate but to give some flavour of it. Why cannot any of us have our Visa card based in Brussels, which offers such cards at the cheapest rate in Europe? Why must they be based in Ireland?

Governments are opening up the market and the private sector is creating franchise areas which are anti-competitive. The clearance of cheques is one such area. There are three different charges for the transmission of money between banks in the euro area, apart from the clearing of cheques. This is a complex area and I would like someone to tell us of the legalities involved.

Acting-Chairman

I agree with the Senator. The issue of money transactions will come up for discussion in our work programme and hopefully the Senator will have an opportunity to expand on the matter then.

A submission has been received from the Irish Insurance Federation regarding a savings and pensions gap. The submission proposes a number of solutions to the problem and the federation has asked for an opportunity to present its proposals to a meeting of the committee before the summer recess. As there are a number of matters competing for the committee's time I suggest that if the committee is minded to facilitate a meeting we should not commit ourselves to a date at this point. It is agreed that the committee accede to the request for a meeting at a time to be determined later.

The committee will meet the Information Commissioner on 11 July and also intends to meet officials before the summer recess to discuss EU anti-fraud proposals. The committee is also seeking to establish dates for meeting Ms Dorothea Dowling and for meeting Dóchas, the umbrella body for aid agencies. We have quite a busy programme.

Deputy Nolan

We should agree to meet the Irish Insurance Federation. There are some serious issues to be discussed. The Minister for Finance has agreed that a serious state of affairs is developing which must be tackled.

Acting-Chairman

We should meet the federation on a date to be agreed.

Deputy O’Toole

Absolutely. At the meeting we should also consider that all the problems listed by the federation could be dealt with by means of one piece of legislation which would require that everyone doing a day's work must contribute to a day's pension. It is as simple as that, yet Governments have been afraid to implement it. Though Ireland is remiss in this area it is still one of the best countries in Europe in that regard.

The joint committee adjourned at 3.35 p.m. until Wednesday, 7 July 2004.