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JOINT COMMITTEE ON FINANCE AND THE PUBLIC SERVICE debate -
Wednesday, 25 May 2005

Standards in Public Office Commission: Presentation.

I apologise for the late start to this part of the meeting. It is never possible to be sure when Oireachtas committees will be ready to call particular delegations to speak. I thank the representatives of the Standards in Public Office Commission for bearing with us. I welcome the chairman of the commission, Mr. Justice Matthew P. Smith, the Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. John Purcell, the Ombudsman, Ms Emily O'Reilly, a member of the commission, Mr. Liam Kavanagh, and the secretary of the commission, Mr. Brian Allen. On behalf of the committee, I thank the members of the delegation for attending this meeting.

Before this discussion begins, I remind everyone that the comments of members are protected by parliamentary privilege but those of visitors are not. This is the first time that the Standards in Public Office Commission has attended an Oireachtas committee meeting. The committee has been looking forward to this meeting for some time. It asked to meet the commission some time last year but it was felt that it would be more prudent to wait until now because various other matters were ongoing at the time. It is part of the committee's normal activity to meet groups which come under its remit. We will start with an opening statement by Mr. Justice Smith. I will then allow questions to be asked for a maximum of 15 minutes. I will call representatives of Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael, the Labour Party and the Technical Group in rotation. If further questions must be asked, I will allow time for them at the end.

Mr. Justice Matthew P. Smith

I thank the Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service for inviting the members of the Standards in Public Office Commission to speak about the commission's role and functions. I am privileged to have as fellow members of the commission such eminent persons, all of whom are present today, as the Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. John Purcell, the Ombudsman, Ms Emily O'Reilly, and the former Deputy and MEP, Mr. Liam Kavanagh, who served as a Minister for approximately five years in various Administrations. Mr. Kieran Coughlan and Ms Deirdre Lane, the Clerks of the Dáil and Seanad respectively, are absent. They are unable to attend for the obvious reason that the Houses are sitting. They send their apologies. Of the current commission, the three members who were also members of what I might call the "old Public Offices Commission" are the Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Purcell, the Clerk of the Dáil, Mr. Coughlan, and the Clerk of the Seanad, Ms Lane. These members are experienced in dealing with the ethics legislation, which goes back, at this stage, ten years.

The standards commission was established in December 2001 by the Standards in Public Office Act 2001 to replace and assume the functions of the former Public Offices Commission. A significant change in the composition of the new commission was the requirement that the chairman should be a judge or former judge of the superior courts appointed by the President on the advice of Government following resolutions passed by both Houses of the Oireachtas. As well as ex officio members, provision was made for the appointment to the standards commission, following resolutions of both Houses of the Oireachtas, of a former Member of one of the Houses. Mr. Kavanagh is the person so appointed. I was honoured in being appointed the first chairman of the standards commission. I was subsequently appointed chairman of the Commission on Electronic Voting. As chairman of the standards commission, I am an ex officio member of the Commission for Public Service Appointments of which the ombudsman is also a member. The Ceann Comhairle chairs the Commission for Public Service Appointments.

The Standards in Public Office Commission is an independent statutory body charged with supervising the Ethics in Public Office Act 1995 and the Standards in Public Office Act 2001, known as the ethics Acts, in so far as they apply to Ministers, Ministers of State, ministerial special advisers, higher civil servants and senior executives and directors in almost 400 bodies in the commercial and non-commercial State sector. The Committees on Members' Interests of the Dáil and Seanad have the same supervisory role in respect of Members of the Houses who are not office holders.

Ethics legislation requires disclosure on an annual basis of interests held under a number of specified headings. The interests include other occupations, shareholdings, directorships, property, land, gifts, hospitality, etc. The legislation also requires the furnishing of a statement at the relevant time in circumstances where a conflict of interests might arise in the context of a function to be performed or arising out of proceedings in the Houses, including any committee of the Houses. The legislation prohibits retention by office holders of gifts valued at more than €650 received by virtue of office and outlines the steps to be taken in the event that such gifts are received. In addition, within nine months of being elected or appointed, Members of the Dáil and Seanad and senior public servants must produce to the commission evidence of compliance with their obligations under the tax code.

The legislation provides for drawing up codes of conduct for parliamentarians and public servants. The codes of conduct published by the commission and admissible in proceedings before a court, tribunal, Committee on Members' Interests and the standards commission are required to set out "standards of conduct and integrity" for the persons to whom they relate. Codes have been published for office holders, including Ministers, Ministers of State and the Chairs and deputy Chairs of both Houses, other members of the Dáil and Seanad and, more recently, civil servants. It remains for the Minister for Finance to fulfil the requirement to draw up a code for the wider public service, including bodies in the commercial and non-commercial semi-State sector.

As well as receiving and considering the various statements and other documents to which I have referred, the Standards in Public Office Commission provides advice and guidelines on compliance with ethics legislation to those covered by it. The commission is empowered to investigate and report where there is evidence of non-compliance. It should be clear that the primary objective of the commission is to ensure that all of those who are covered by the legislation are fully aware of their obligations and facilitated in every possible way to meet them.

Under section 18 of the 2001 Act, I am empowered, as chairman of the standards commission, to direct in writing any person to make discovery on oath of any documents which are or have been in the possession or control of a person and which are relevant to the commission's functions. I have exercised the power on a number of occasions to date. The commission is a permanent tribunal of inquiry and can hold sittings for the purpose of an investigation. Under the Act, I can, as chairman, direct a person who is the subject of an investigation and any other person whose evidence is required to attend before the standards commission. Such persons are obliged to give evidence and produce any document or thing in their possession which is specified in any such direction. Examination-in-chief and cross-examination are conducted under oath. It is an offence punishable by a fine or term of imprisonment to fail to co-operate with an investigation.

Under the Act, inquiry officers may be appointed by the commission to conduct preliminary investigations on its behalf in any case where a complaint has been made under the legislation. The committee should be aware that it is only possible for the commission to appoint an inquiry officer if a complaint has been received. The commission sees the caveat as a legislative shortcoming which inhibits the full and efficient performance of its functions. Under the legislation, an inquiry officer may request the person making the complaint or any other relevant person to provide a statement in writing of the evidence the person will give to the commission at an investigation; furnish to the person against whom the complaint was made particulars of the complaint and copies of any statements provided or any other relevant documents, and take a statement of evidence from the complainant.

An inquiry officer prepares a report in writing of the results of an inquiry and forwards it to the commission. While reports should not contain determinations or findings, they may, if the commission so requests, include an expression of the opinion of the inquiry officer as to whether there is prima facie evidence to sustain a complaint. The provision is a significant addition to the capacity of the commission to examine complaints into alleged breaches of the ethics Acts as it permits an inquiry officer to focus entirely on matters relevant to those Acts.

In a recent case in which the appointment of an inquiry officer could have assisted the commission to conduct a preliminary examination, it was not possible to make such an appointment as a complaint about the matter in question had not been received. It is a fact that the commission has received relatively few complaints from Members of the Houses or the public in general. A number of complaints were made, however, about the use on behalf of candidates in the 2004 European Parliament and local elections of resources paid for out of public funds. I refer to Oireachtas envelopes and paper. The commission dealt with the complaints without invoking the full investigative powers of the legislation. As well as its supervisory role under the ethics legislation, the standards commission is responsible for overseeing the provisions of the Electoral Acts 1997 to 2004 where they relate to disclosure of political donations, limits on election spending and State financing of political parties.

In December 2003, at the request of the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, the standards commission published a review document outlining its experience in dealing with that legislation. Under the legislation, political parties, Members of the Houses, MEPs and candidates at Dáil, Seanad, European and presidential elections are required to disclose details of donations received for political purposes. They are also required to open political donations accounts in a financial institution and to provide details to the standards commission of transactions relating to those accounts. The legislation includes a ban on accepting foreign donations and a ceiling on the value of donations which can be accepted from the same donor in the same year.

Spending restrictions at elections are in place which are regulated through a system of election agents appointed by candidates and national agents appointed by political parties who report to the standards commission. Reporting and registration obligations also arise for other groups, known as third parties, who are involved in political campaigning in an election, a referendum or otherwise. The scope of the legislation in regard to third parties is extremely wide and, in terms of supervision by the standards commission, has given rise to a number of difficulties which are outlined in the review document which I already mentioned and in the annual reports of the commission. Political parties must also account to the standards commission for the funding they receive under the Electoral Acts.

The standards commission has also, since 2002, a monitoring role under the Oireachtas (Ministerial and Parliamentary Offices) (Amendment) Act 2001 regarding spending by leaders of parliamentary parties of what is more commonly known as the party leaders' allowance. The party leaders must now furnish an annual statement to the standards commission setting out how the funding was used. This must be accompanied by a public auditor's report. The total amount of direct Exchequer funding received by political parties under the Electoral Acts and the party leaders' allowance, which must be accounted for to the standards commission, is now approximately €11 million per annum. This money cannot be used to finance election or referendum campaigns. One of the most important aspects of the legislation I have just described is the fact that the material relating to political funding and election spending is open to public scrutiny. This is facilitated by having it available for public inspection at the office of the standards commission and on its website.

The establishment of the standards commission and its predecessor, and the enactment of the legislation which I have covered in this address to the committee were part of a concerted and wide-ranging response to a demand for greater transparency in public life. Other important elements include the Freedom of Information Act 1997, the Committees of the Houses of the Oireachtas (Compellability, Privileges and Immunities of Witnesses) Act 1997 and, more recently, the Local Government Act 2001 which provides for a code of ethics for officials and members of local authorities.

In its recently published report, the Referendum Commission recommended that consideration should be given to the consolidation of electoral functions which are at present spread among a variety of statutory bodies. These include the Referendum Commission, the standards commission in so far as it is concerned with the electoral legislation, the constituency commission, the Commission on Electronic Voting and the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. The Referendum Commission also recommended the creation of an independent electoral commission which could oversee referenda and elections at local and national level, enforce electoral legislation, monitor election spending, promote public awareness and regulate political parties. Such a body would have the additional advantage of being a permanent and ongoing body which, in the case of a referendum, would have ample time to prepare and promote public awareness of important constitutional amendments, such as the proposed referendum on the new EU constitution.

In the area of standards in public life, what has occurred in legislative terms has been most impressive by any objective measure. It is regrettable that so little attention has been afforded to these developments. To a great extent they appear to have been overshadowed by events at the various tribunals of inquiry which, for the most part, have been dealing with occurrences that predate the Ethics in Public Office Act 1995. That distinction is not always made, however, and evidence from the tribunals can be very damaging when it comes to sustaining Ireland's reputation as a country where it is possible to conduct business in an environment that is not tainted by corruption.

The corruption perception index published annually by Transparency International is an example of a measure which might be used in forming opinions on the attractiveness or otherwise of a country in terms of decisions on inward investment. Corruption is defined as the abuse of public office for private gain. The index ranks countries in terms of "experts' perception of corruption" in the country. In the annual report of the standards commission for 2003 I noted that an improvement was recorded in that Ireland's ranking had moved from 23rd in 2002 to 18th in 2003 out of a total sample of 133 countries. In 2004, although its score remained the same, Ireland's ranking improved again, to 17th out of a total sample of 146 countries.

As with any perception index which, by its nature, is highly subjective, it is difficult to assess the value or accuracy of the corruption perception index. I understand that those polled tend to be managers in multinational companies, staff in international accounting firms and financial journalists. To the extent that it does reflect the outside view, I have no doubt that it was greatly influenced by events at the ongoing tribunals. Publication of the index gives rise to media coverage here and abroad. It formed the basis for statements in a 2002 report on behalf of the Joseph Rowntree Charitable Trust that corruption is a central theme of Irish life and politics and that Ireland is now regarded as one of the most corrupt European states. Most people would have great difficulty in accepting either contention. It is, however, essential that reassurance be given by accentuating the progressive steps that have been taken. This is not always done when opportunities are presented. It is also possible to focus to a greater extent on other objective analyses that portray Ireland in a positive light. In that regard, it is worth pointing out that GRECO, the Group of States against Corruption, a highly respected body that operates under the auspices of the Council of Europe, concluded in its evaluation report on Ireland — based on a factual study as distinct from perceptions and published in December 2001 — that "Ireland appears to belong to the group of those GRECO members that are least affected by corruption". It was also stated that various important legislative measures exist in Ireland which can be regarded as a strong deterrent against corrupt activities. It also made reference to the establishment of the Criminal Assets Bureau, which is highly effective in the fight against corruption and criminal activities.

In time, the progress made during the past ten years will be seen as a watershed in terms of setting down, and demanding observance of, clear standards regarding the norms of behaviour expected of those who are in the public service and are entrusted with serving the public interest. There is little point in having in place a substantial body of legislation unless it is applied fairly and consistently and unless there is a clear understanding of the obligations to be met by those who are affected by it. In this regard, I can speak for the work of the Standards in Public Office Commission regarding the ethics legislation and the Electoral Acts. Both sets of legislation are based on the assumption that the integrity of the individual will give rise to full and voluntary compliance.

There are, however, sanctions for non-compliance, all of which are serious and some of which involve criminal offences and the prospect of heavy fines and/or imprisonment. The approach of the Standards in Public Office Commission in supervising the legislation is to seek to ensure that all those who are covered are fully aware of their duties and responsibilities and that the advice given and guidelines published are comprehensive, precise and intelligible. It should be understood, however, that if there is non-compliance, the Standards in Public Office Commission will take action when it is considered necessary and appropriate, including referral of files to the Director of Public Prosecutions, as has already occurred on a number of occasions in respect of the Electoral Acts.

No system is perfect and, no doubt, further refinement and expansion of our laws and procedures will be necessary in the years ahead. The one certainty, however, is that leadership and encouragement from the very highest levels of the public service are essential to ensure that the standards of behaviour we have come to expect of our public servants are maintained and that the citizens of this country can have confidence that the public interest will always take precedence over the personal interests of the individuals by whom they are served.

I thank Mr. Justice Smith. We will take questions in rotation and 15 minutes will be allowed to each of the parties. Thereafter, everybody will have an opportunity to ask questions.

I welcome the members of the Standards in Public Office Commission. Mr. Justice Smith stated that he believes the commission to be a permanent tribunal of inquiry. That is an apt description. He also stated that it is not possible for the Standards in Public Office Commission to appoint an inquiry officer unless a complaint has been received and that this is regarded by the commission as a shortcoming in the legislation which inhibits the full and efficient performance of its functions. Will he elaborate on this shortcoming? How can it be addressed?

Mr. Justice Smith stated that, under the legislation, an inquiry officer could carry out certain tasks. Should the inquiry officer not be obliged to do so?

The corruption perception index of Transparency International and the report of GRECO contain totally different analyses of Ireland's position in the league of what are considered to be corrupt states. Are the organisations involved internationally accepted? Are there other such organisations? Why have the two international bodies, if they are such, produced such varying reports on the level of corruption in this State?

Mr. Justice Smith has great difficulty in accepting the contentions of the two organisations. This is good to hear. I understand GRECO operates under the auspices of the Council of Europe and I have great respect for it. It is important that false or inaccurate information is not circulated. It could damage the image of the country if statements were circulated internationally to the effect that Ireland is a corrupt State, even though another body might say that this is not the case.

Mr. Justice Smith

On the inquiry officers, the Standards in Public Office Commission can initiate an investigation on its own. If it does so, it does not have the power to appoint an inquiry officer. The process is limited to my making an order of discovery against certain people to produce documents.

We can obtain reports from other persons, as happened recently in the case involving the Minister for Transport, Deputy Cullen. We received the relevant report from Mr. Dermot Quigley. We had no power to appoint an inquiry officer who could make inquiries on our behalf and make statements to us on various individuals. Our hands were somewhat tied in that inquiry. We had the Quigley report and all the documents which were available to us from the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government and the OPW. This was the only evidence we had available to us upon which we could make a determination.

If a complaint had been made to us by a Member of either House of the Oireachtas or by a member of the public, it would have enabled us to appoint an inquiry officer or officers to make the necessary inquiries on our behalf and produce evidence in respect of the ethics legislation. This is why the absence of the power to appoint an inquiry officer restrained us in our investigations.

Transparency International is a well-known international firm that measures perceived corruption. I will refer to a report prepared by an economic consultant, Mr. Colm McCarthy, published in the ESRI's quarterly economic commentary in autumn 2003. He stated that no country is included in this investigation or the tests, unless it is covered in the year in question by a minimum of three such polls. These polls are mainly of managers in multinational companies — probably around the world, people who may never have worked or operated in Ireland — staff of international accounting firms and financial journalists. We do not know whether inquiries were made of people living and working in Ireland in regard to what corruption, if any, exists here.

We also referred to the GRECO report. I refer to Mr. McCarthy's article which states that the Council of Europe's GRECO initiative is an anti-corruption programme which includes periodic evaluations of the legislative and other efforts of participating states in fighting corruption. He says the first evaluation report in Ireland was released in December 2001 and it reviewed the measures taken in Ireland up to that date.

He adds that this report discusses the statutory provisions relating to corruption in Ireland including the recent Prevention of Corruption (Amendment) Act, the Ethics in Public Office Act, and the Standards in Public Office Act 2001. The GRECO report notes the establishment of the Criminal Assets Bureau and of the various tribunals referred to in the introduction. He cites the report as stating that the GRECO 2001 report concludes that Ireland appears to belong to a group of those GRECO members that are least affected by corruption. He disagrees with the view of the other body and finishes by noting that various important legislative measures exist in Ireland which can indicate a strong deterrent attitude to corruption.

This is a different viewpoint from that of Transparency International, which comprises sound people outside the country. GRECO has been examining what anti-corruption procedures are in place and has concluded that we are one of the countries least affected by corruption. Therefore, this is not an issue about which we should worry unduly.

I accept the point but I raised the matter because of Mr. Justice Smith's statement and his response. It is clear that the body which operates under the auspices of the Council of Europe, takes cognisance of what happens here and conducts its own investigations but there is another body that has no responsibility to consult with anyone in this country and probably does not.

It is possible that there may be heads of financial institutions or major corporations who have their own agenda regarding this State. They may contribute to Transparency International, an international body which has made no contact with this country, taken no statements from anyone here, whether in the press or the financial institutions, and included Ireland in a list. Does Mr. Justice Smith agree that is dangerous? Is there any way that we or the commission can counteract that? This is a small vulnerable State and we do not want somebody who has his or her own agenda, one that may not be in the best interests of this country. The world is a small place. If that type of information is not true, as I believe on the basis of the other report, is there any way the commission can contribute or make a statement to counteract it?

Mr. Justice Smith

Mr. Purcell has just reminded me that Transparency International opened an office in Dublin some time before last Christmas. This may be based in Smithfield. We are aware of its existence and will contact it to ask about the basis for these perceptions.

I thank Mr. Justice Smith for that. That is a good idea. We should probably invite Transparency International in to explain its statement about this country.

I take the Deputy's point but we will consider that matter because my understanding is that the people who have set themselves up as the Irish office are a group of self-appointed individuals. I do not know what legal basis or statutory function they have. I would like to know more about them before affording them an opportunity of coming in here.

The Chairman must agree that Transparency International's statement, as cited by the commission, is damaging, whether or not it is accepted by other bodies internationally. It is a serious statement and conflicts with the statement of GRECO which operates under the auspices of the Council of Europe. We have a responsibility, and I hope the commission has a responsibility, to protect the image of the State as well in these circumstances.

Mr. Justice Smith

I am very conscious of that.

On the basis that the statement was damaging and that we do not know who comprises this group or to whom it spoke in Ireland, one must wonder whether we should give them credibility by inviting them here. I would like to consider those issues before inviting them. We will consider the suggestion.

I thank Mr. Justice Smith for his valuable report. Integrity in public life is important from the point of view of confidence in democracy and investor confidence.

I wish to highlight and agree with three points at the end of the report. The first is the statement:

In the area of standards in public life, what has occurred in legislative terms in a relatively short period of time has been, by any objective measure, hugely impressive.

There has been a transformation from the situation ten years ago, in which there were relatively few rules and many grey areas, to a situation in which there is much legislation.

I also fully endorse Deputy Finneran's comments about Transparency International and concur with Mr. Justice Smith's assessment of that matter. Looking at events in other member states of the European Union puts our situation into perspective.

Mr. Justice Smith is also correct to imply that the tribunals of inquiry affected the picture. The moral dilemma seems to be whether one should sweep problems under the carpet for fear that they might damage one's reputation, or does one get credit for bringing them into the open and investigating them? Holding tribunals of inquiry is not necessarily proof that there is rampant corruption. It may demonstrate that one is determined to address the problems that exist.

I recall having dinner with Senator O'Rourke and a leading British Government politician, recently deceased, who said that the tribunals were doing great damage to Ireland's reputation. That is a wrong perspective. People who are prepared to confront and deal with their problems should get some credit instead of its being held as minus mark against them.

Mr. Justice Smith

I agree with Senator Mansergh. The tribunals are doing a good job but the public is concerned about how long it is taking to complete their work. Some of them have been in existence for eight years and one wonders how much longer they will go on. These matters should be wrapped up quickly if that can be done. However, problems, especially legal ones, always arise with challenges to rulings and the like. The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform has a new procedure in operation, similar to our investigations. This may well curtail the time taken in carrying out such examinations.

It is alarming that the commission does not have the power to appoint inquiry officers. The commission is responsible for overseeing 400 public bodies but does not have the ability to investigate a serious problem, except on foot of a complaint. Arising from this, there must be circumstances in public bodies that can give rise to corruption. If the commission does not have this power, how does it see itself supervising the possible areas where conflicts can arise and where corruption could develop?

Mr. Justice Smith

As I said, if a complaint is made——

We place our faith in the commission's ability to do its job for the people. However, it does not have the power to spot-check in the same way as the Revenue Commissioners. The commissioners will occasionally perform an inquiry in an area of the tax code that may be vulnerable to abuse. Does the Department of Finance support legislative change in this area?

Mr. Justice Smith

It may have been referred to in some earlier reports but it only arose in the recent investigation we carried out.

Should we expect the commission to have the power to do spot-checks, even if it has not immediate evidence of an abuse? Part of the commission's job is to ensure that the compliance procedures are working, particularly in areas of vulnerability. It is wrong that it does not have the power of inquiry and must resort to discovery orders and other paraphernalia. The committee should give new impetus to the commission's recommendations to the Department.

I note the commission would like to have powers to check the veracity of tax clearance certificates provided by Oireachtas Members. What is the thinking behind this?

Mr. Justice Smith commented on the difficulties in overseeing third parties in electoral campaign spending. How many third parties have registered with the commission? I support the idea for consolidating the functions as it dovetails both membership and functions.

Mr. Justice Smith

Our hands are tied in investigations we wish to carry out. I can do no more than make a discovery order for documents. Files are then produced to the commission, which we can peruse to see if any concrete material is available to proceed further. We do not have the powers to appoint an inquiry officer, which is an inhibiting factor. If we had the power, we could send somebody to investigate a matter, report to us and tell us if we should go further. The inquiry officer could establish whether a prima facie case can be established. We recommend to the committee that the power be given to the commission to appoint an inquiry officer, even when no complaint is made to it.

The issue of third parties is referred to in our review of the Electoral Acts 1997 and 2001. The Department requested us to give our views on the operation of the legislation. In the report we stated the purpose of the provisions for third parties is that there can be politically active individuals or organisations who are now covered by the legislation. The legislation defines a third party as a person, other than a registered political party or a candidate in an election, who accepts in a particular year a donation in value in excess of €126.97. These third parties are obliged to register with the standards commission but that does not happen very often. They are prohibited from accepting foreign donations and donations of more than €6,348. They must open and maintain a political donations account if they receive a monetary donation in excess of €126.97. They must report annually to the standards commission.

Unlike politicians, parliamentarians and election candidates, third parties are not required to disclose the value or source of the donations. The donation means any contribution given for political purposes. A donation is to promote or oppose, directly or indirectly, the interests of a third party in connection with the conduct or management of any campaign conducted with the view to promoting or procuring a particular outcome regarding policy or policies.

The commission referred to the number of people who could be classified as third parties, which is where difficulties arise. These include local bodies, such as a tidy towns committee, a residents' or tenants' association, which may or may not have a political agenda. Other bodies include community organisations, Trócaire, Amnesty International, Threshold, the Society of St. Vincent de Paul, An Taisce, credit unions, Comhdháil Náisiúnta na Gaeilge, representatives of trade unions or other interest groups such as those representing publicans, lawyers, hoteliers, teachers and accountants. They may all have a political agenda and may be involved in a peripheral way in the outcome of an election. These groups are to register with the commission but very few come forward. If we follow some of them up, they claim they do not have a political agenda. The legislation is somewhat difficult to supervise and operate.

I welcome Mr. Justice Smith, Mr. Purcell and Ms O'Reilly. The delegation will understand if I give a particular welcome to the esteemed former Member Mr. Liam Kavanagh. It is nice to see there is life after politics.

In his presentation, Mr. Justice Smith stated:

I would like to make it clear that the primary objective of the standards commission is to ensure that all of those who are covered by the legislation are fully aware as to what their obligations are and that they are facilitated in every possible way in meeting those obligations.

However, there are many matters with which Members must comply. There is a media scrummage twice a year when lists of donations and on Members' wealth and property are published. A Member would not feel he or she had made it unless registered with those that have a long page of property and shares. It is a strange matter but I speak in jest to an extent.

Mr. Justice Smith mentioned the use of public resources for European and local elections, and made some complaints. This area is an absolute minefield. How can one have a so-called level playing pitch for elections and at the same time have people do their job? In a general election, for example, if I am a candidate, then the rules in Leinster House state that once an election is called, I am no longer a Deputy, but become a member of the public. Under the relevant legislation, Ministers and Ministers of State remain as such for the duration of the election, and continue to do their jobs. They also retain their office staff. Senator Mansergh was on one of the same tickets as myself. Senators remain Senators for the duration of the election.

And for a couple of weeks afterwards.

Yes. A Senator can also continue to use what is termed "the resources accruing to a Senator". Now let us consider a first-timer, a person not previously nominated for election. In the name of God, how can one have equality in such a situation? I see the minefield in which Mr. Justice Smith treads in trying to adjudicate on issues which arise in this area. Has anyone suggested at any point that common sense be used? It can be virtually impossible to have a totally level playing pitch because if, for example, a Minister arrives to open a school, whether during a local or a general election, to what extent is he doing his job as a Minister and to what extent is he opening the school for electoral purposes locally? How does one adjudicate on that?

This is a minefield. We must ensure that common sense prevails, rather than involve ourselves in nitty-gritty details which will bring the entire system into disrepute. Generally speaking, abuse does not occur in this area, so we must be careful.

On page nine of his script, Mr. Justice Smith refers to the party leaders' allowance and says: "Party leaders must now furnish an annual statement of standards, setting out how the funding was used. This must be accompanied by a public auditor's report." I welcome that. He goes on to say that the money cannot be used to finance election or referendum campaigns.

May I draw to the attention of the Chairman the fact that Mr. Justice Smith's report is incomplete? While in his document for 2003 he set out the fact that party leaders receive a party leader's allowance of approximately €5.77 million, he has omitted a sum approaching €0.5 million given to Independent members under the terms of the party leaders' allowance. In fact the figure is higher. I apologise. I neglected to include the sums paid to Senators who are also Independents. The true figure would be about €600,000. Mr. Justice Smith has made no reference in his report to this figure.

An individual Deputy, or a Senator who is an Independent, gets an allowance under the terms of the monthly salary which is not audited or accounted for, and which does not fall under the terms set out by Mr. Justice Smith. Mr. Justice Smith says the money "cannot be used to finance election or referendum campaigns". He does not know that, because there is no accountability for the money, which involves a straight payment made on a monthly basis to the people concerned.

I suggest, therefore, that the report by Mr. Justice Smith is incomplete. He may wish to respond or perhaps does not want to get into that murky water. Perhaps the issue is not entirely covered by the legislation. However, as members of political parties, we are conscious of these payments, which can convey a huge benefit to Independents in one's own constituency. One might have a competitor in an election who is an Independent, and has this sum of money. For an Independent Deputy, the sum is €2,700 monthly on top of salary. It is given as a direct allowance, is not taxable and does not have to be accounted for.

Mr. Justice Smith

I will ask Mr. Purcell to reply. He has taken some instructions from the commission secretary, Mr. Brian Allen.

Mr. John Purcell

The straightforward answer is that it is not required by the legislation that the money in question be accounted for. Whether it should or should not is a matter for Members as legislators to decide on, perhaps by means of amendment.

Is Mr. Purcell saying that the legislation says that Independents do not have to account for the allowance, or does the legislation say that the funding for the party leaders allowance should be audited, and so on? Is he saying that there is an exclusion within the legislation allowing Independents not to account for the allowance?

Mr. Purcell

I am saying both. The party leaders allowance must be audited, and my office outlines the form of the audit certificate to be given by a private sector auditor. There is no such requirement regarding the allowances for Independent Members.

The allowance is paid under the party leaders allowance legislation. There is no separate fund. Is there a specific exclusion within the legislation? If so, that was probably introduced in 2001, when Independents held considerable sway. They may have had an important role to play at that time. Is this the case?

Mr. Purcell

Perhaps it could be.

Mr. Liam Kavanagh

I thank the Chairman for the welcome. The matter in question is referred to on page 11 of the commission's document, "Review of the Electoral Acts 1997 to 2002", where it says: "Another aspect of the legislation which may require to be reviewed is the matter of when the election period actually commences, and what expenditure is required to be accounted for". Our problem is that we can only look at the period from the time the Dáil is dissolved until the general election takes place, and the expenditure which takes place in that period. If these people are getting benefits earlier than that, Members must amend the legislation for us, and we can then operate from there. At present, we are asking for that matter to be considered in any review of the legislation which takes place with regard to our commission.

Mr. Justice Smith

I will call upon Mr. Allen, who is Secretary to the commission and familiar with the legislation and the operation of the Acts.

Mr. Brian Allen

To make it absolutely clear, the legislation requires the leaders of the parliamentary parties to account for the spending of their portion of the party leaders' allowance. That must be accompanied by a public auditor's report. However, there is no provision in the legislation requiring individual Independent Members of either the Dáil or the Seanad to account for their spending of their portion of the party leaders' allowance.

If the money, about €600,000 per annum, is paid out under that heading, surely Mr. Justice Smith might have a view on whether it is fair that 10% of the total fund should be unaccountable when 90% of it is accountable? Is that the basis of equality and the equal treatment of Members within the Houses?

Mr. Allen

For the standards commission to request independent Members of the Oireachtas to account for their spending of their portion of the allowance, a statutory basis would have to exist. As the legislation stands, it does not exist.

Mr. Allen has clarified the matter. We understand that there is a clear gap, which has been highlighted.

Like the other Deputies, I welcome the commission and the statement made by Mr. Justice Smith. I particularly welcome the recommendation made with regard to the inquiry officer. Anything which would facilitate speedier, easier and less complex examination would be welcome. I wish to ask a number of specific questions. The first is about the fact that the commission reported on a previous occasion as regards the limits on election spending. It recommended against increasing election limits, although the then Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Cullen, was publicly commenting at the time that he was in favour of very dramatic increases.

Does the commission propose to report at any time in the near future? The general understanding is that there will be another election at the latest within two years. Does the commission intend to review this area as regards election spending limits?

I concur with the report's findings that the introduction of restrictions on spending has levelled the pitch, particularly between smaller parties and very large ones. I am interested to know whether the commission intends to review this area of spending limits again.

I note what Mr. Kavanagh had to say regarding the pre-election spending period. It might be useful to have a short summary of the various recommendations of the commission because the time of the last election was so clearly advertised, there was an enormous amount of spending before the official "off" was sounded. It was generally reckoned that Fianna Fáil was the real spender with countrywide advertising at, what appeared to be, a very expensive level.

All parties in the House would probably welcome additional accountability and limits being put on that pre-election period. If we were to go to the wire as regards the expiry of the current Dáil, it would become very clear by the beginning of 2007 that an election would have to be held within five months. As a result of the absence of powers outside the election period, parties are free to spend whatever sums they want. This was done in the run-up to the last election, but obviously only some parties are in a position to do so.

The commission reported on a number of occasions on the issue of tax clearance certificates. As the Labour Party spokesperson on finance, I have tabled questions to the Minister for Finance on a number of occasions about these certificates.

The commission, in its current report, refers to the position as regards Deputy Michael Collins's tax clearance certificate and the fact that in September 2004 his name appeared on a list in Iris Oifigiúil of bogus non-resident account holders. I understand the commission made certain recommendations as regards this matter. I have raised the matter with the Minister for Finance who keeps advising me that there are problems concerning the Revenue Commissioners to the effect that, for example, “The amendment suggested gave rise to the question of waiving Revenue confidentiality with regard to an individual’s tax affairs.”

That was the reply given to me by the Minister for Finance on reform proposals made by the commission. However, if tax clearance certificates are to be meaningful and if the matter is drawn to the commission's attention, as in that case, and if the commission lacks powers, surely this is capable of resolution. I acknowledge what Mr. Justice Smith was saying and believe that most people in public life are very honest in all walks of life. There is a problem with some, however, and if it is not possible for the commission to be able properly to investigate, then the absence of that power casts aspersions on everybody else.

This issue is mentioned in the commission's annual report. The commission took other actions that it felt were open to it, including referring the matter to the Director of Public Prosecutions, but there the matter appeared to end. Will the commission be making representations to the Minister for Finance to seek to resolve this impasse? Otherwise it looks as if tax clearance certificates are hardly worth the paper they are written on. Most people are compliant, but if someone abuses the system, it looks as if the commission cannot do anything.

Another question I want to raise is referred to in the second page of the chairman's statement. It is about the ethics Acts as they apply to Ministers, Ministers of State, ministerial special advisers, higher civil servants, senior executives and so on. I want to raise two scenarios. The first is concerned with ministerial special advisers, specifically consultants, without going into the matter in any detail. The commission announced in a press statement pertaining to the Deputy Cullen and Ms Monica Leech matter that it had sought legal advice on an issue arising under the Acts. Subsequently, following receipt of that advice, it decided it was not going to proceed with an investigation.

We do not want to open that issue here but does the commission have a view as to whether it ought to make fresh recommendations on urgent or desirable changes to either the ethics or the electoral Acts as regards this matter? The Taoiseach subsequently told the Dáil that he was implementing new regulations as regards the appointment of consultants to Ministers, but it was and is a matter of considerable public interest concerning the proper running of affairs. I would like to hear the commission's comments on that issue.

The second matter is that in my experience as a member of the former Dublin County Council, which is the subject of an ongoing tribunal of inquiry, and as regards changes that have taken place in local authority legislation, one area specifically concerns me. I do not know whether it is within the remit of the commission, but it is referred to here, namely, codes of conduct for public servants. The report rightly suggests that there should not be a proliferation of codes of conduct across the public service and I would endorse that view.

However, the area that is the most fertile ground for corruption in this country concerns the enhancement of land values arising from the rapid pace of development. That was the situation with the old Dublin County Council and continues to be the case in local authority areas around the country because of economic growth and prosperity. I am aware of cases where senior officials who act as directors of planning services in a local authority in due course retire or leave the council's employment. Within the next couple of months they are working with the very developers with whom they had formerly been in consultation as local authority officials, and who had approached the council seeking and arguing for rezonings. This is the most fertile area. The public will continue to feel that matters are not sufficiently open. I do not know if local authorities, county managers, or directors of services are outside the remit, but that is still the area of most risk. Does the commission have a view on this issue?

Politicians are not allowed to receive donations from abroad. However, a number of Sunday newspapers had a story of a post-election dispute in a political party about a candidate who had not paid all of his bills following the European election campaign. One Sunday newspaper had an entertaining account of a fund-raiser in London for that candidate, Mr. Royston Brady. What does the commission do in a situation like that? I understood that there was a bar on raising money abroad, but in this instance a fund-raising breakfast was held in London, according to the newspapers. Does someone have to make a complaint, or can the commission investigate of its own accord?

I attended a seminar by the Joseph Rowntree Charitable Trust a few years ago that was held in Buswell's Hotel. It was attended by politicians of all political parties. I have heard of Transparency International and I am supportive of the remit which the trust set out at that seminar as being in the best interest of public policy in Ireland. I have received material from Transparency International, as have other public representatives. I welcome its work in Ireland. I recently received a submission from Transparency International which was made to the Government, suggesting that Ireland should ratify the UN Convention on Corruption. I do not know if that communication has been sent to the commission, but I have already said to the relevant Minister that Ireland should endorse that convention.

Mr. Justice Smith

The Deputy referred to the tax clearance certificate and to Deputy Collins. The commission must operate within the legislation. At the moment, we cannot go beyond the certificate presented to us. We must accept it at face value. The matter is for the legislators and for the Revenue Commissioners. We cannot get involved with what occurred in Limerick before the issue of the tax clearance certificate.

The Deputy also spoke about the spending limits at the last elections. We cannot offer any advice to the Department on whether the limits should remain as they are or whether they should be raised or lowered until we get a request from the Department. Again, it is not within our remit to make recommendations on what should be done. If our advice was requested, we would certainly have views on the matter.

Appendix 1 of the review of the Electoral Acts 1997 to 2002 sets out spending on behalf of political parties and candidates at the 2002 general election. The average amount unspent on Fianna Fáil candidates was €4,126 per candidate. The average amount unspent on the 85 Fine Gael candidates was €6,799 per candidate. The average amount unspent on the 46 Labour Party candidates was €10,654 per candidate. The average amount unspent on the 37 Sinn Féin candidates was €18,353, while the comparable figure for the Green Party was €25,000 for 31 candidates. It is quite clear that the limits seem to be adequate and there is no one approaching them. It appears from the findings that amounts spent are adequate.

The third issue raised by Deputy Burton dealt with the inquiry carried out by Mr. Dermot Quigley on the Monica Leech affair. The Deputy stated that the Taoiseach intended to bring in new regulations. That is a matter entirely for him. We do not have a view on whether we should make fresh recommendations. Unless we are requested to do so, we should not suggest what should be done.

Deputy Burton's comments on local authorities relate to something that occurs to all of us. If corruption takes place, it could happen between county councillors and officials, as has happened in the past. Unfortunately, local authorities do not come within our remit. I feel that they should because corruption is more likely to arise there than anywhere else in the public service.

We do not know what happened in London regarding a fund-raiser for a candidate in the European elections. One cannot take donations from outside the country for political parties here. If a complaint is made, then we can look into the matter. We do not always follow these stories.

That is my query. If it is forbidden to accept foreign donations, is it possible to have a foreign fund-raiser? Most Members would be interested in this issue.

Mr. Purcell

Party fund-raising outside the State is acceptable once the proceeds of that fund-raising are used outside the State. Our remit relates to fund-raising within the State that is used here. Funds raised outside the State for use within the State would be subject to the law.

Ms Emily O’Reilly

If Irish nationals working abroad are giving money outside the jurisdiction, then that is allowable.

Is there not an annual declaration of funds received from outside the State? I have read about funds that came from the US and so on. That happens annually.

We are not in a position to spend such money in this jurisdiction, but then our party is organised in two jurisdictions. Ms O'Reilly's point is correct. An Irish national living overseas has the opportunity——

Fianna Fáil and, if I remember correctly, Fine Gael have also made returns. Does that mean that sums recorded as having been raised abroad cannot be used here at all?

I do not think anybody is suggesting that.

Ms O’Reilly

The issue involved Labour Party funds that had to be declared to the US authorities and were published under foreign registered companies or agents. I remember the list mentioned by Deputy McGrath. Before the ban, this might have involved money received from US citizens or Irish citizens living in the US. It was legal then but not now to bring funds here.

I join my colleagues in welcoming the representatives of the Standards in Public Office Commission. It is a pleasure to have them and their contributions were interesting. I concur that there is a significant deficiency in the legislation, in that the commission is constrained from appointing an inquiry officer for any given situation in the absence of a formal complaint. Today's presentations would have been worthwhile if only that point was highlighted. Many examples exist of such matters.

I would like clarification on the commission's understanding of how standards in public office apply in terms of restrictions on an approved address in any given circumstance. In the recent past, inflammatory remarks have been made pertaining to asylum seekers and refugees. I do not refer to a junior Minister in this regard. Character assassinations of political figures have been attempted by means of innuendo and tenuous associations. I refer to one of my colleagues, a Member of the Oireachtas, who was the target of this strategy. Entire communities and opinions, including some I espouse, have been criminalised, as have sections of Irish society. The comments of a member of a different parliament about a community that neighbours mine have been happily echoed. The gay and lesbian community has been the butt of remarks made by Ministers in recent months. This issue pertains to standards in public office. These prejudices should find no succour in the utterances of Ministers. Given that these remarks serve only to inflame prejudice, do they fall within the terms of the commission's approved address in the event of a formal complaint? I would prefer to see that such utterances are addressed, in the absence of formal complaint, when they are made.

On a point of order, Deputy Ó Caoláin conflates a number of different matters, some of which may be cause for legitimate complaint but others are matters for political debate. The healthy and robust political debate that obtains in every parliament should not be cause for complaint to the Standards in Public Office Commission.

With respect, my question was to the members of the commission. While Senator Mansergh's contribution is noted, I do not believe the incidents to which I referred fall under the category of healthy debates. I regard them as unhealthy, unhelpful, injurious and prejudicial. I do not share the Senator's comfort.

The Deputy is complaining——

I did not interrupt anyone and am entitled to the opportunity to be heard. These are important matters and I simply seek clarification from the commission on whether they feel that such remarks and utterances fall within the terms of the commission's approved address. Do obvious deterrents to the making of complaints render the current practice less effective? I noted from Mr. Justice Smith's remarks that a number of bullet points indicate procedural steps. In the commission's opinion, is any method other than a formal complaint available which might ease the process? Does a deficit exist in the commission's function with regard to public awareness and, if so, might this be filled through an information campaign to encourage access to the commission?

The chairman, Mr. Justice Smith, described his power under section 18 of the 2001 Act to direct in writing any person to make discovery on oath of any document. He indicated that he exercised this power on a number of occasions. I ask him to elaborate on this if he is in a position to do so.

In terms of Mr. Justice Smith's remarks on the proposal to create an independent electoral commission and reference to the Referendum Commission's recommendations on this matter, I note the proposal for "an independent electoral commission which could oversee referenda and elections at local and national level, enforce electoral legislation, monitor election spending, promote public awareness and regulate political parties." Work is being done on promoting public awareness of referenda and I wonder whether it is the commission's view that the word "balanced" should be introduced to the text so that we may see a balanced presentation of opinion on all issues before the electorate in referenda. This is particularly pertinent, given the example given by Mr. Justice Smith this afternoon of the upcoming referendum on the EU constitution. We no longer have a situation in which the McKenna judgment on dissemination of referendum information applies. It is important that the commission recognises the requirement for a balanced presentation of valid views on referenda. All valid views in such debates should, in line with the McKenna judgment, be taken as matters of course. I ask the commission to take that on board and offer its views of it.

Mr. Justice Smith

I was not a member of the now extinct Referendum Commission but two of my colleagues were. The commission was only in existence for a matter of three or four weeks before the election. Perhaps my colleagues will have views on the issue of a balanced presentation of arguments.

Ms O’Reilly

Mr. Purcell was on the Referendum Commission when it was possible to put both sides forward and he may wish to discuss this. The legislation has changed and our role now is to conduct an information campaign that sets out a clear and unbiased view of the purpose and import of the constitutional amendment. This was done in regard to the last referendum, on the citizenship issue, and I do not recall any complaints to the effect that we had misrepresented either side of the debate. We took a great deal of care to ensure this was the case. Although it has been repeated like a mantra today, I emphasise that the question of whether this should be otherwise is for the Oireachtas to decide.

Mr. Purcell

I wish to elaborate on this because I have been a member of the various referendum commissions set up whenever the Minister deems it necessary in advance of a referendum. I have had the privilege of sitting on referendum commissions both in their original form and in the new mode. It is a difficult task to formulate arguments for and against a particular question. The effort to establish the total validity of certain arguments has involved long hours of agonising for previous commissions. Our changed mandate is to present factual information in an accessible form using all types of media and also to encourage people to vote.

This represents a significant dilution of the original provisions in the relevant legislation. The change of mandate was not made as a result of statements in a report of any of the previous referendum commissions. We simply accepted the new mandate because it is part of our duty to do so and the change was not on foot of a recommendation from a previous commission. This was a decision made by the Oireachtas.

It was a decision taken at Cabinet.

Mr. Purcell

These types of decisions must ultimately be enacted in legislation and that is what occurred.

Mr. Kavanagh

Deputy Ó Caoláin commented on the small number of complaints made to the Standards in Public Office Commission and asked about the obstacles Oireachtas Members may encounter in making complaints. Is that correct?

What in Mr. Kavanagh's view are the obstacles?

Mr. Kavanagh

I do not wish to be clever about this. However, it is the case that in the time since the legislation was enacted, not one Member of either House has made a complaint to the Standards in Public Office Commission in the four years of its existence. Can the members of the committee say whether there is some difficulty that prevents them from making a complaint? If there is an obstacle in this regard, I ask that they inform us of it.

I wish to return to Deputy Bruton's question on pre-election spending. An issue I have raised on several occasions in the past is the fact that because we have a maximum parliamentary term, which may or may not be achieved, it is often difficult to predict when a general election will be held. Should coverage be extended so that Members are required to make returns at times other than during the period of an election campaign? Many of us here will recall the occasion many years ago when three elections took place in 18 months. In such a scenario, the only limitation on the amount spent would be the lack of funds.

We are now in a situation where it seems likely the Government will run its full term and this makes it easier to estimate the likely date of the next general election. It is certainly impossible to prevent politicians from anticipating elections if it is a matter of attracting publicity. If Ministers are in a stronger position then they should perhaps read the code of conduct we produced for them some time ago.

Mr. Justice Smith

Mr. Purcell was a member of the Public Offices Commission, which was in existence for some seven years before the Standards in Public Office Commission was established. He may wish to speak about his experience of the administration of complaints during his time as a member of the previous body.

Mr. Purcell

Yes, there were two complaints to that body, which led to the only full investigation that has taken place under the auspices of either the Public Offices Commission or the Standards in Public Office Commission. The process was something of an eye-opener for the two politicians who made the complaint. It is necessary to justify and underpin any complaint and this proved to be more difficult than the complainants may have envisaged. The investigation process is quite legalistic in that the commission has its own counsel and there is also counsel for the person against whom the complaint is made. It is quite a lengthy and difficult procedure.

I will offer a frank opinion in this regard. It is rather daunting for individuals to make a complaint because they may perceive it is they who will ultimately be in the dock if the complaint goes to a full investigation procedure. Outsiders might argue this is sometimes the case in regard to tribunals of inquiry, for example. This is merely an opinion based on my observation of these matters during my time as a member of both commissions.

Will the delegation answer my earlier questions?

Mr. Justice Smith

Deputy Ó Caoláin asked about what he described as inflammatory remarks made by Members of both Houses of the Oireachtas. Members are aware that there are codes of conduct in this regard. I am not sure whether they refer to statements made that may be defamatory. As far as the Standards in Public Office Commission is concerned, this issue is certainly outside our remit. We have no control in this area. It is a matter for the courts to adjudicate where people believe they have been defamed. However, that is a cumbersome procedure.

Deputy Ó Caoláin also asked about the discovery orders I can make in respect of certain matters. It has generally been the case that merely the threat of a discovery order was sufficient to ensure any information was furnished. I have had to make discovery orders on very few occasions, although I was obliged to do so twice recently in respect of the investigation into some dealings of the Minister for Transport, Deputy Cullen. Those discovery orders were made to the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Environment and the Office of Public Works. It is not necessary to take such action often because I usually receive immediate co-operation without any trouble once it is indicated to the body or person concerned that I propose to make the order.

I wish to put some questions to the delegation. We are grateful that the commission's annual report for 2003 was furnished in advance of the meeting. I understand the 2004 report will be published shortly. Pages 34 to 37 of the 2003 report deal with third parties and this is an issue the commission clearly considers to be of some importance. A third party is referred to as a person other than a political party or candidate who accepts in a particular year a donation of more than €127.

The report observes that the definition of "political purposes" is extremely wide and that while it refers to elections and referenda, it also covers any campaign that supports or opposes a policy of the Government or a public authority, including a local authority. Moreover, this is not restricted to campaigns conducted during an election period. The delegation has already expressed its concerns that this wide definition could ultimately include tidy towns committees, charities, trade unions, the IFA and vintners' associations, for example. In view of the difficulties posed by this wide definition, the commission suggests in its review of the electoral Acts that instead of concentrating on receipt of a donation, an alternative approach might be to focus, as in the case of elections, on spending by individuals or groups and to regard them as third parties if they intend to incur expenditure above a certain threshold. In its annual report, the standards commission suggested, in its review of the Electoral Acts, that, instead of concentrating on receipt of a donation, an alternative approach might be to focus, as in the case of elections, on spending by individuals or groups and to regard them as third parties if they intend to incur expenditure above a certain threshold, say €5,000, in respect of a campaign for political purposes and which could support or oppose a Government policy.

The commission is suggesting that a body that spends more than €5,000 supporting or opposing a Government policy should be listed a third party and register with the commission. When I read this I immediately thought of the Ryanair advertisements and the various captions likening the Taoiseach to Che Guevara. The commission is saying that those types of advertisements should be under its remit if bodies spend more than €5,000 on a campaign which opposes a Government policy. They must register with the commission as a third party.

At a cost of €3,000 per page.

We have all seen such campaigns, and €3,000 is a modest amount. I am surprised. Can delegates elaborate why the commission thinks that campaigns such as Ryanair's should be under its remit. It might suit the Government. As a Government Deputy, I find the advertisements entertaining but I am surprised that the commission would take this view.

Mr. Justice Smith

We discussed the matter at some length and concluded that such bodies were not third-party. Some of the advertisements happened before the last election but a number occurred afterwards. We decided it constituted political criticism and not promotion.

The Commission speaks of opposing a policy. What about such advertisements?

They do not oppose policy but merely point out that the Government did not follow through on its policies.

I have made my point. Perhaps it is a good thing.

Mr. Justice Smith

We considered the matter at some length.

Did the commission consider this sort of advertisement?

Mr. Justice Smith

Yes.

It did not come under the existing definition of a third party because it was not a donation of €127. Is that correct?

Mr. Justice Smith

Yes.

If the body received a donation for the advertisements, it would have had to register with the commission. It is a minor point.

The Electoral (Amendment) Bill 2005 is passing through the Oireachtas at this time and primarily deals with changes in constituency boundaries. Section 6 deals with the clarification of items not considered to be election expenses in presidential, Dáil or European elections. These include pre-postage for candidates and other items. That section will be dealt with on Committee Stage in the Dáil today and I would like to discuss this issue here. I tried to follow the debate in the Houses. My understanding of it is that as a result of the Kelly case in the Supreme Court, amendments were made to the Electoral (Amendment) Act 2004 with regard to what would be considered to be expenditure. Some items were inadvertently excluded from what would be considered as exempt expenditure, such as free postage, and this raised a doubt about the matter in terms of standards in public office. As a result, amending legislation is going through the Houses this afternoon to clarify the situation. It would not pass through the Dáil unless clarification was needed.

There were recent by-elections in Kildare North and Meath. Is there any doubt, in the commission's view, regarding the cost of election postage for all candidates who availed of the facility in those campaigns? The limit for each candidate was €38,000 in Meath and €25,000 in Kildare North. The electorate in Meath was well in excess in 100,000 and the cost of the election address, at 48 cent per item, would be at least €50,000. Therefore the amount of money involved in the election address alone is greater than the entire amount of money a candidate is entitled to spend. We now seem to be in the process of changing the legislation to clarify the issue. Can we get information with regard to this? Can it be sent on the committee in written format at a later date?

Mr. Justice Smith

I am not familiar with the legislation passing through the Dáil this afternoon. However, Mr. Brian Allen, commission secretary, knows of the problems to which the Chairman refers.

Mr. Allen

The Chairman is spot-on and described exactly what happened. There was a need to change legislation to give effect to the Supreme Court judgment in the Des Kelly case. However, too much was taken out of the legislation in error. That which should not have been removed is now being replaced. The commission drew the Department's attention to the fact that too much had been removed. It said if the legislation remained as it was, a problem would arise as described by the Chairman, namely, that items that were not previously regarded as election expenditure, such as the election address, would now be regarded as such and would put every candidate over the spending limit. The Minister agreed that ambiguity now existed surrounding the legislation and proposed to correct that by way of amending legislation which is now passing through the Houses. On that basis, the standards commission agreed that it would not seek to have its interpretation of the legislation applied in respect of the European Parliament election or the Kildare North and Meath by-elections. This all happened in the middle of the European Parliament election campaign. The commission did not request that those items be costed as election expenses.

I understand everything Mr. Allen is saying, and it is as I expected. Too much was removed when drafting the legislation in 2004. It appears unambiguous and clear-cut. We are now correcting the mistake inadvertently made last year. However, I do not understand how a blind eye could be turned to the issue during the European Parliament elections and two by-elections. The commission wrote to the Department, and what was clear-cut is now ambiguous and is not required to be considered. I am not a lawyer but understand the legislation. I am a politician who has tried to follow the matter. It is very difficult to do so because there was an Act in 1977 and 1980, amendment Acts in 1998 and 2001, two in 2002, one in 2004 and now one is passing through the Houses in 2005. Consolidation legislation is required in any event because nobody could be expected to work their way back through seven Acts.

Given that this correction in legislation is on Committee Stage, there was clearly a gap in the law. I do not understand why everybody refused to get involved in the matter. Was it not black and white? How was the decision taken?

Mr. Allen

The Department did not at any stage concede that the standards commission was absolutely correct and that there was a gap. The Minister said that the amendments to the original legislation had created doubt and that he would bring forward legislation to remove this doubt, which is what he is doing now. He put forward quite a long argument as to why it might not be necessary to bring forward amending legislation but then decided it was better to remove any possible doubt by doing so.

I am sorry to bore people on the point, but it is a matter of principle as much as anything else and the amount of money involved for this item of expenditure is quite high. The 2004 legislation specifically and erroneously excluded the election postage issue, namely, the litir um thoghchán service which covers the cost of postage. The House is now putting it back in. It is a black and white issue and to speak of ambiguity is an exercise in semantics. A mistake was made in 2004 which is being corrected in the House today. As an ordinary member of the House, it seems to me that there was a gap in the interim. It seems too convenient that the Department and the commission came to an agreement on the issue. Can the witnesses clarify this further? I have taken this up with officials in the Department and they seek to clarify something but to me, it corrects an existing problem.

In other words, the Chairman's point is that even though the law was in existence, someone turned a blind eye to it for the purpose of the by-election and he has asked how could this be done.

I want and am waiting to be reassured that this did not happen. I have not been reassured yet. Perhaps the witnesses have other detailed advice that could be forwarded to the joint committee——

The inclusion of that free postal service as a cost is madness, because it is available to every candidate.

Every candidate.

If the Chairman intends to go back over the Meath issue, where it cost €50,000——

Per candidate.

It was per party rather than per candidate. If it is included as a cost, the ceiling on election spending must go through the roof. Since it is a balanced item across the board for every candidate, I do not see why it should be included at all.

I want to make it clear that I do not believe it affected the outcome. Every candidate had the same advantage and I do not raise any doubts. However, this appears to be a big item of expenditure the legislation did not cover until now.

I wish to raise a related matter, namely, the question of the use of Dáil envelopes. In the commission's report, I understand that Mr. Bobby Molloy acknowledges providing Dáil envelopes to various candidates, mainly in Galway. As the Chairman has noted, some of the instructions which accompany the commission material can at times be very difficult to follow if one tries to be compliant. For instance, if Members of the House give Dáil envelopes to other individuals, such as county council candidates, as did the former Deputy Molloy, must that be regarded as a political donation, if the numbers involved are significant?

Mr. Purcell

The answer is yes. To return to what the Chairman——

Perhaps it would be useful to tell people the rules in this regard.

The Committee on Procedure and Privileges is working on this issue.

The joint committee will conclude, but can the witnesses comment on the reassurance I seek? I found the debate hard to follow.

Mr. Purcell

I have a draft copy here of our report for 2004, in which we go through in great detail the issue of what constitutes an expense. The report outlines the different steps taken by the commission. Effectively, the Department stated that it viewed the legislation in a particular light and did not feel a doubt existed. However, after repeated correspondence with the commission in which we took a particularly firm view of the issue, the Department went ahead with the legislative amendment to avoid any doubt. This will be in the forthcoming report.

What I am hearing is that the Department thought a doubt existed. The commission stated it had a very firm view——

Mr. Purcell

No, the Department felt it was all right.

However, the commission firmly held the opposite view.

Mr. Purcell

Exactly.

Mr. Kavanagh

We were right.

I am satisfied that the commission was right; otherwise the House would not be amending the legislation. If one takes an hour to examine the subsection of the subsection which was included by mistake, one sees that the commission was absolutely right. Why did the commission not hold firm when it came to the two by-elections and the use of an election address? The guidelines issued by the commission for the Dáil by-elections for Kildare North and Meath in 2005 note that items which are not election expenses include free post services provided to a candidate by An Post. However, a minute ago, Mr. Purcell told me that the commission was firm in its view that it should not have been included. I agree with everything up to this point.

Mr. Purcell

The commission took legal advice on this issue. My understanding is that the advice we received suggested to us that our interpretation was the more correct one. Having put that view to the Department, it remained adamant. We were obliged to provide guidelines for candidates in the by-elections on that basis. The commission then felt that it would be prudent to acknowledge that while legal advice is legal advice, it did not wish to test the issue in the courts. Ultimately, the Department has come around to our point of view. It has given the avoidance of doubt as its reason, which is fair enough. The commission got the result it wanted.

Let me put it this way. I thought the Standards in Public Office Commission does not go by what the Department tells it and that it should be the other way around. However, it appears to have acquiesced in respect of issuing these guidelines. Mr. Purcell can correct me if I misinterpret the position, but I would have expected the commission to hold to the letter of the law. The law was clear-cut. Although Mr. Purcell has talked about which body was more right, and about ambiguity, the commission was correct from beginning to end on this issue. The Department was not and the Oireachtas has backed up the commission's point of view. My point is that the commission then issued the guidelines in the hope that nobody would spot it, make a complaint or know about it. I am being somewhat severe but there is a point to be made here.

Mr. Kavanagh

According to the Chairman, the agents returning their expenses for the two by-elections should also have sent in the entire bill for the postage costs. This would have come to approximately €50,000, because election material was sent out in the assumption that it was free, which, according to the Chairman, was against the law. However, we never got any returns back to the effect that a candidate had spent €60,000 on this election, even though it was known that €30,000 was the limit.

The logic of my position is that, inadvertently, all candidates may have submitted inaccurate returns. My honest opinion is that all made the same mistake and every by-election candidate who used this facility unintentionally submitted an incorrect return by following the commission's guidelines.

Mr. Kavanagh

No, Chairman. The candidates went by the Minister, not by the commission.

At this stage we will conclude. I find this point of detail to be intriguing because this legislation is currently before the House. Is there any——

Mr. Justice Smith

As far as Deputy Burton's point pertaining to county councils and county councillors is concerned, Mr. Purcell wishes to refer to one matter.

Mr. Purcell

I want to clarify something in case any unintended points were made earlier regarding local authorities. The Local Government Act 2001 provides that the Minister may issue codes of conduct after consultation with the commission, and that consultation took place. During the consultation, we pointed out areas where we felt the code could be beefed up.

To address the point made by Deputy Burton, we considered that it would be appropriate to include a provision in the code which would bring some element of control to the situation whereby local authority employees leave their employment and take up consultancies or other employment in the private sector, to which they could bring information or contacts gained in the course of their local authority employment. We felt that in such circumstances, an imposition of a moratorium for a specified period would not be unreasonable. We also gave some other views in the course of that consultation. While certain minor observations were taken on board by the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, it did not really address that particular issue. In our forthcoming report, we will express our disappointment that it did not do so. Ultimately, we might have to sit in judgment on a specified person carrying out a specified act, which could be a local authority employee.

Mr. Purcell

In doing that, we would have to take cognisance of the codes of conduct. If there is nothing specifically in the code of conduct, it ties our hands with regard to something that we feel might need to be addressed. This is a clarification of something that the Chair said earlier.

On behalf of the committee, I thank all those who have participated. It has been a useful and interesting exercise from the committee's perspective. It is the first time that the committee has had an opportunity to meet the Standards in Public Office Commission and it has benefited from the experience.

Mr. Justice Smith

On behalf of the commission, I thank the committee for the invitation to speak. We enjoyed our period here and it is a good experience for all of us. It is certainly the first time I have appeared before the committee. Possibly Mr. Kavanagh was here in previous years. It has been a delightful experience and we look forward to coming back.

The joint committee adjourned at 6 p.m. sine die.

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