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JOINT COMMITTEE ON FINANCE AND THE PUBLIC SERVICE debate -
Wednesday, 7 Sep 2005

Tax Reliefs and Exemptions: Presentations.

The main business of today's meeting is a review of the tax reliefs and exemptions submissions. We will meet representatives of the Department of Finance and officers of the Revenue Commissioners. Mr. Kevin Cardiff, Mr. Liam Murphy, Mr. Vincent Palmer and Mr. David Owens from the Department of Finance join the committee today as do Mr. Liam Irwin, Ms Fionnuala Ryan and Mr. Sean O'Connor from the Revenue Commissioners. On behalf of the committee, I thank representatives for attending.

Before the discussions begin, I advise witnesses that while comments of the members of the committee are protected by parliamentary privilege, those of visitors are not. I remind the committee that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the committee or the Houses of the Oireachtas.

We will commence with a short presentation from Mr. Kevin Cardiff and Mr. Liam Irwin which will be followed by a discussion with members of the committee. On behalf of the committee, I ask Mr. Cardiff to proceed.

Mr. Kevin Cardiff

I thank the committee for the invitation to appear before it to discuss the submissions the Department of Finance received through public consultation in its overall review of tax reliefs. The use of public consultation is an important and increasingly used feature of policy development work and the Department has much to gain from the insights given to it by interested members of the public. We appreciate that people give their time to making those submissions. The committee will appreciate the value of the exercise from looking at the responses we have received.

While the usual restraints on officials rather than Ministers apply here, we can have a useful discussion, nonetheless. We are happy to describe to the joint committee the organisation and outcome of the public consultation process and answer questions in that regard. We will endeavour to provide the joint committee with whatever factual background information it may require on the process. As well as the public consultation process, we are in the process of developing policy and will listen carefully to the points members wish us to take on board.

As the Chairman introduced my colleagues, I will outline the context of the public consultation process. The Minister for Finance announced on budget day last year that a major review of tax reliefs and incentives would be undertaken by his Department and the Revenue Commissioners. It was envisaged that the review would focus on tax reliefs and incentives used by individuals with high incomes to reduce their tax bills and evaluate the impact and operation of various tax relief schemes, including their economic and social benefits for the different geographical locations, the sectors involved and for the wider community. The review would involve external consultancy work on the property based incentives and a public consultation process. The Minister stated he would bring forward proposals in the 2006 budget based on the outcome of this work.

The review process is well advanced. As members will be aware from the material we sent to the committee, the matter was sent to tender and two firms of external consultants were appointed to carry out the work on property based incentives. One firm, Goodbody Economic Consultants, will examine area based renewal reliefs, that is, geographical based schemes such as rural renewal schemes, the urban renewal scheme, the town renewal scheme and the living-over-the-shop scheme, while the other, Indecon Economic Consultants, will examine various sectoral property reliefs such as multistorey car parks, park and ride facilities, student accommodation, third level buildings, hotels and holiday camps, holiday cottages, nursing homes, private hospitals, sports injury clinics, child care facilities and refurbishment of certain rented residential accommodation. In addition the Department of Finance and the Revenue Commissioners have been reviewing a number of other schemes, such as the income tax exemptions for artists, woodlands and forest schemes, patent income, stallion and greyhound fees and the donations to charities scheme, interest relief for investment in a company or partnership by individuals, relief for significant buildings and gardens and also the tonnage tax, which was added at a later date. In addition, data on pensions relief are being examined to assess usage of various pension provisions by those with high incomes in particular.

As part of the public consultation process, advertisements were placed in the newspapers and the social partners, Departments, the Ombudsman, the Comptroller and Auditor General and political parties were invited to make submissions. We have received approximately 90 submissions. The Revenue Commissioners and the Department of Finance are examining the submissions and drawing on international comparisons to learn how the issue of access to a range of tax reliefs by individuals with high incomes is addressed in other jurisdictions. This will involve examining possible horizontal measures that could operate here in practice. Work in this area is progressing.

We acknowledged all the submissions we received and work has started on them. The submissions are posted on the Department's website for pubic viewing. The chairman has been supplied with copies of all the submissions. In making a submission some persons decided to concentrate on individual reliefs although they were invited to consider the overall impact of reliefs.

The tax schemes most commonly referred to in the submissions received were the exemption scheme for artists, on which we have some of the most literate contributions, and the urban and rural renewal schemes, on which some strong opinion was noted. Some of the submissions were more general and covered a range of issues, from the structure of the tax system to particular reliefs such as those relating to nursing homes, park and ride schemes, hotel capital allowances, student accommodation and all of the property based tax reliefs, as well as forestry and pensions reliefs.

Naturally, given the wide spread of opinion, it is hard to suggest a single strand emerged. However, a number of the submissions stressed the following general points: the need for equity within the tax system; the need for a full assessment of the costs and benefits of tax reliefs; and the need to evaluate fully the existing reliefs and ensure that new reliefs are properly evaluated and justified before they are introduced. A number of submissions proposed that a ceiling be placed on the amount of tax relief an individual can claim per annum, some suggested a minimum effective tax rate for taxpayers over a certain income level and other submissions referred to the idea of a limit on the percentage of income which could be sheltered by a relief. A number of other submissions, however, did not favour such restrictions on the basis that they would reduce the incentive element of the reliefs or complicate the tax system. One submission suggested that the Government consider raising the level of the annual cap of €31,750 placed on the amount of capital allowances on buildings that an individual passive investor can set. In other words, while many suggested there should be caps of one sort or another, some suggested that caps should not be introduced and that those already in place should be moved.

The tax exemption scheme for artists attracted much attention. Of the submissions received, 40 referred to this exemption. Of those, 19 were from individuals, most of whom were artists, and 20 were from representative bodies and other organisations. The Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism, Deputy O'Donoghue, also wrote, enclosing a submission on behalf of the Arts Council. The majority of the 40 submissions referring to the exemption for artists were in favour of the retention of the exemption in some form. A number saw a need to introduce a cap on the amount of earnings but that was not a majority view among those who made submissions. In general, the view was that the scheme should be retained as, first, it helped create an environment in Ireland in which the arts could flourish, second, it encouraged new artists and those artists on very low to moderate income to continue in their field, third, it encouraged artists living abroad to come and live in Ireland and, fourth, it was beneficial for the arts in Ireland and the wider community from both an economic and cultural perspective.

Some 20 of the submissions referred to urban and rural renewal schemes. Most of these submissions were from local authorities proposing either an extension of the termination date of 31 July 2006 for these schemes or the introduction of similar focused and targeted reliefs to encourage investment in certain activities and areas. A number of representative bodies also referred to an extension of the termination date for pipeline projects, for example, those for which planning permission has already been received.

A small number of submissions proposed that the forestry exemption be retained unaltered given the shortage of wood in Europe and the contribution that forestry can make to rural economies and climate change. Others, however, suggested the scheme should be critically examined. A number of submissions proposed the extension of the park and ride scheme to encourage the use of public transport, some suggested that the relief for child care facilities be retained in the interest of increasing the supply of child care services and some proposed the extension of the deadline of existing capital reliefs available for student accommodation to facilitate the construction of student accommodation. Many submissions proposed that the equity of various tax breaks provided for pension purposes be considered. It was proposed that the donations scheme for charities be extended to cover gifts of non-cash assets including property, shares and securities. Committee members will be aware that, at present, relief is available but only for cash gifts. It was proposed that the business expansion scheme and the seed capital scheme be continued and that the company limit and the investor limit applying to the schemes be increased — in other words, that the schemes be expanded.

I hope I have given the committee a flavour of the range of issues raised in the submissions we have received. It was not my intention to represent the views of the various parties which made submissions other than to summarise them. We will do our best to answer any questions members may have.

Does Mr. Liam Irwin wish to make an opening statement?

Mr. Liam Irwin

No. I will deal with issues as they are raised.

I understand this review is being undertaken because there was insufficient detailed information to quantify the costs and benefits of the various reliefs and exemptions. The tax form which self-employed people must complete by the end of October in regard to 2004 has been significantly amended and will result in the capture of a significant amount of new information on most of the issues under discussion. Given that the deadline for the receipt of these forms is October, does the Department expect there will be sufficient time to summarise this information and present it in a report by, for example, the end of November?

Mr. Cardiff

Perhaps the delegates from the Revenue Commissioners will comment on the precise sequence. We expect to have useful additional information on some schemes in October but this is not the case in general. For example, we will begin to get information on stallions by then because there is now a requirement to make a return on stallion income which was not the case in the past as a consequence of the associated exemption.

The form for this year in regard to that scheme refers to non-residency. Is this a new element of the form which will allow information to be captured that was not clearly available before now? The information gathered in this regard will be significant.

Mr. Irwin

As far as I am aware, this information is new. In terms of when the information on the form will be available, we expect, based on last year's figures, that almost 60% of returns will be made through ROS, the Revenue on-line system. Information gathered in this way will be more readily available for interpretation and we expect to have analysis on that by January 2006 or perhaps the end of this year.

In regard to paper returns, the first imperative is to make and issue the assessments. The tax regions will concentrate on this in the first instance before moving on to detailed data capture which, although outsourced, is labour intensive and will take several months to complete. It will be well into the first half of 2006, therefore, before we have information on the total filing season. The ROS analysis will be available in late 2005 or early 2006.

Without anticipating any element of the budget, is it the case that if issues such as those we have discussed are to be dealt with in the budget, it must be done on the blind to a significant extent because the relevant information is not available for consideration in advance?

Mr. Cardiff

The review process is extensive and its purpose is to ensure we do not operate on the blind. Some 24 reliefs are under review and extensive efforts are being made to gather data, including information not normally gathered under tax returns.

Will Mr. Cardiff explain this procedure? The forms will capture all this information but what mechanisms are in place in regard to the reviews and reports being carried out in advance?

Mr. Cardiff

We have appointed consultants to examine the property schemes using a variety of approaches, including case studies, surveys and direct discussions with interested parties. For example, the views of local authorities have been sought on various economic techniques and so forth, depending on what data have been available to them. For example, better data are available on the geographic schemes than on the sectoral schemes. With regard to the latter, consultants must carry out a wider trawl to gather the initial data. Internally, we are using a variety of sources, and availability of information varies according to particular schemes. In some cases we did surveys and in other cases we are using Revenue data as well as new approaches to this data. We are also talking directly with interest groups and so forth. The review process should leave us with quite an extensive amount of data and information in advance of the budget.

Very important decisions must be made, many of which will be debated in this committee. How much data can the Revenue Commissioners give us regarding the cost of these reliefs? The last information we received dated back to 2001, which is almost four years ago, and was extremely patchy. There was no information whatsoever in the case of 33 reliefs, many of which were quite substantial. These have now been addressed through the form which the Chairman mentioned. However, can the Revenue Commissioners provide us with more up to date information in respect of the reliefs for which there is data, instead of relying on data which is four years old and which was a pro rata estimate based on a short tax year?

One of the important elements of the 2001 material, and which was a cause of concern for the committee, was the tax paid by top earners. That report showed that 117 people received €74 million between them in reliefs from various schemes in 2000, which represents approximately €600,000 to each of this very small number of people. The report also showed that the value of the relief was down to €350,000 in 2001 in respect of 115 individuals. It is important for the committee to ascertain whether the trend continued or whether these top earners no longer get the same use of these reliefs to eliminate their tax. Can we have a more contemporary review of the use of these various schemes by top earners?

Pension relief is also an important issue and when aggregated it is by the far the biggest relief. A value of €4,000 million was put on pension relief in 2001. How was that distributed across income bands? Half of people have no pension schemes and are, therefore, getting nothing from it. However, the other half have such schemes. The extent of the information that we have regarding take-up is an important concern in terms of reform. It seems intuitively unfair to give relief worth 42% plus PRSI exemptions to those on the top rate, but only 20% relief to those on the standard rate. Can we be provided with data on the equity of the distribution of pension relief?

The Revenue Commissioners provided interesting information in respect of reliefs for artists. Many of us were surprised to see that although 1,500 people availed of the relief, more than 60% of that relief went to 28 individuals. This would have a bearing on other reliefs. Is similar data available which shows the extent to which patent relief etc. is concentrated on a very small number of individuals? In this way we can prepare for the debate on fairly solid ground.

The Department of Finance will gather information in the coming months and receive consultants' reports. Does the Department intend to use the blanket of secrecy provided under the Freedom of Information Act to close down access until decisions are taken in respect of the budget or will it allow the committee to have access to the consultants' reports and the incoming data? If the Department uses the protection of the Freedom of Information Act and says this is part of the deliberative process, Deputies on this committee, particularly Government Deputies, who must vote these things through, will find themselves with a very small window. It is not really possible to engage in debate if one does not receive some flavour of the relative merits of changes in different areas. Will the Department just shut down information and present us with a fait accompli on budget day, leading to all hell breaking loose in terms of people grabbing whatever information they can to either bolster or undermine the position? It would be better if there was some opportunity for objective consideration for the public and particularly for Deputies and people intimately involved with this matter. Will this opportunity for objective consideration be provided?

Could Mr. Cardiff describe how the Department will calculate the benefits and costs of something like tax relief tor private nursing homes, private hospitals or student accommodation? What are the social benefits of tax relief, as opposed to private benefits? How much of this is dead weight where taxpayers are just propping up something that might have happened anyway? How does the Department calculate the cost of, for example, tax relief on a hospital, which I know is applied over 15 years? Has the Department worked out the worth of the net present value of tax relief in terms of a subsidy on a hospital? Will Mr. Cardiff give data that show that this tax relief spread over eight years on hospitals is worth a certain amount and is an effective subsidy of 20% or whatever it is? Will he give an idea of how the different tax reliefs stack up and how the Department identifies benefits? What is the benefit of a private hospital being put in place versus not having a private hospital? Perhaps Mr. Cardiff would describe that process, as it is quite difficult to know how one establishes the social benefit, as opposed to the private benefits.

Mr. Cardiff

I will deal with the second strand of questioning and ask the representatives from the Revenue Commissioners to deal with questions relating to data. The Minister was asked a question regarding the blanket of secrecy in June 2005 and replied that he was not in a position to say when the reviews would be published. Therefore, I will not give an opinion on the matter.

Mr. Cardiff presumably knows that if I contact the Department tomorrow looking for that information under the Freedom of Information Act, my request will not go to the Minister but will be dealt with internally by the Department, which will make a decision as to whether this information will be released. It must be known within the Department. It will not go back to the Minister to see what his view on the day will be.

Mr. Cardiff

As the Freedom of Information Act works, a request is received and is then assigned. The head of the public body, this being the Department, is the Minister but people are delegated to make the decisions within the Department. The person to whom the requested is assigned would in the normal course be familiar with the information and the policy issues surrounding it. However, the decision is not made until the request is received. I would not pre-empt whichever person would make the decision. It is not the case that every person making FOI decisions is told he or she cannot release documents without even seeing what the request is. It does not work that way. It works on the basis that a request comes in and there is a period during which the material sought under the request must be assessed.

There is an issue with both the deliberative process and the fact that the rules are not yet completed. This is an issue for the decision-maker. It would not be right for me to predict, beyond saying there are obviously some exemptions within the Act that might apply. There are those including deliberative process and others including things that might affect the security of the State, economic issues or so forth. There is a process to go through and if a request is received, the process will be gone through properly. I have no reason to doubt that this would be done carefully and as a separate process. However, in the past, the pre-budget policy formation process has been formalised through the tax strategy group process. The tax strategy group papers are published after the budget, in May or June in the case of 2005. Rather than putting people through the difficulty of making FOI requests for those tax strategy group papers, there is an assessment. It is not saying that this is legally how the FOI system would work if applied to that group's papers but some material is sometimes left out for reasons of sensitivity or because it is a matter for the next budget. Generally, this is how pre-budget deliberations are considered. I am not in a position to say whether it will be different this year.

Regarding the process of how one estimates costs and benefits, in terms of those studies that have been done internally and those that have been done by consultants, it is very far from being an easy process. In practice, some aspects are not easily costed. I understand from the consultants that considerable efforts are being made to estimate costs and benefits as far as can be done economically but there will obviously be some fine judgments for which the data is not such that one could say the amount would be exactly €120 million and 25 cent. However, the consultants feel they can come to a reasonable estimate of both tax costs and economic benefits.

The issue of dead weight and displacements — in other words, to what extent would these things have happened anyway or, to what extent would things that would not have happened anyway displace other economic activity — is probably the most difficult to address. As I understand it, the consultants have been doing it in part by the most direct way, namely, asking people whether this activity would have gone ahead. They must allow for the possibility that people have their own agendas but they are managing to estimate that kind of thing. Internally, we are encountering the same issues. In some cases we have data but do not in others. In some cases one can make a fair stab at dead weight while in other cases one must just form a view.

These decisions do not tend to come down to a situation where everything is exactly 50:50 and one must judge the matter on a very fine balance. Usually, they come down to something probably not making a difference in terms of the overall decision. If one thinks the benefits are €100 million and the cost is €50 million, it will not make too much difference if the benefits are €110 million and the cost is €60 million. One would hope the decisions would not be as finely balanced as this and, therefore, one does one's best. We get the best information possible and talk to as many people as possible for those rougher aspects such as dead weight and then come to a view. As I understand, this is precisely what the consultants are doing for the property schemes and what we have been doing for the schemes we have been examining. Some schemes are easier to assess than others. In some cases, it is not just our word. We can draw on other academic and consultancy work that has been done in recent years to determine whether our findings are likely to be consistent with it.

Data relating to 2001 are very old as a basis for making an informed judgment.

Mr. Irwin

Our annual statistical report for 2002 will be published in October. This will update all the figures to 2002.

Deputy Bruton asked a number of questions on specific reliefs. I hope I will answer most of them. Regarding the more detailed analysis of the top 400 earners, work on a new report for 2002 is well advanced. A new report will be produced well in advance of the budget. Work on this is very detailed. It involves an IT analysis of the cases. Further analysis of reliefs not captured on computer, of which those cases avail is a matter of going back to the file, the tax returns and often back to the tax payers' tax advisers. It is a tedious, detailed process that needs to be accurate. Work is ongoing in this regard and we will have the information soon.

Deputy Bruton also asked why we have specific information on relief for artists. We also have specific information available for interest on loans invested in companies. The reason is that historically, we have this information on the tax return whereas this is not the case with other relief schemes, such as property relief. We will not have this in our 2002 report. The first time this information was requested was for 2004. The early information on this will be available at the end of this year.

Regarding pensions, the 2002 information will be of the same class and type as the information on 2001 because only the same analysis was available. The P35 for 2005, which will be filed in February 2006, will have additional information in aggregate form. In the late spring or early summer we will have initial analysis of this, followed by full analysis in 2006 when the full filing and data capture has been completed. We have published some additional pensions information. The only relief on which we can give detailed costings is the retirement annuity contracts. Other information given to the House in the context of a reply to parliamentary questions was from surveys of internal Revenue information and analysis of information from the Pensions Board. These were the main points raised.

The year 2002 seems a long time ago now. Does the Office of the Revenue Commissioners make sample surveys on developments? In this way the information could be more up to date. I understand the Chairman pointed out that 95% of returns must be completed before one ventures to say anything on them. Is the Office of the Revenue Commissioners insisting on a very high level of proof before information will be given?

Mr. Irwin

It probably is and that has been our historical approach. We have worked with the Department of Finance to examine the reliability of data if we extract data from those who file returns in a timely fashion and the earliest of those who file returns late. The Department has asked the ESRI to examine this and give an opinion on how reliable the data will be. We are conscious of the difficulties of our current approach in an economy that changes rapidly. If we are satisfied that it will be reliable it is the intention to have advance information in the future.

I welcome the decision of the Minister for Finance to carry out this review, which is long overdue. Some statistics released in recent months clearly illustrate that the schemes urgently need to be overhauled. Governments of all hues should aim to ensure their policies are equitable and fair and do not benefit some members of society to the detriment of others.

For people who must pay income tax, PRSI and stealth taxes and who are on modest wages or waiting for services it seems wrong that 250 people who were paid €100,000 in 2000 or 2001 had a zero tax bill. I will illustrate the divergence in society. I spoke with a mother whose child cannot go to school because the western region of the Health Service Executive cannot provide her child with a wheelchair because it does not have the money. It is difficult for people like that to understand why 28 artists who earned between €500,000 and €10 million per year were able to avoid tax in excess of €46 million. That €46 million would have provided a huge amount of services for people with disabilities. Information such as that will not help people on the margins and gives them a greater sense of isolation. The situation must be corrected because it is blatantly wrong and has been allowed to continue for a long time. The Minister must be applauded because he seems to be taking the bull by the horns in this matter.

I am critical of many elements of the process. Clearly, some of the schemes have been extremely beneficial to many areas throughout the country where developments have taken place that certainly would not have occurred were the schemes not in place.

We discussed facts and figures and sought more information on them. One can use statistics to win any argument. The same set of statistics can be used to undermine or underpin a particular argument. That is how ridiculous it is to base everything on statistics. A basic rationale must be applied to all of the schemes. There is a case for having a maximum and minimum in all cases irrespective of the benefits or the downsides. There should be a maximum tax relief threshold and a minimum level of tax to be paid.

The open-ended nature of pension reliefs should be ended and there should be a limit on an overall pension fund that a person should be entitled to amass. There should also be an annual contribution limit on the amount that can be put into a pension.

Tax residency laws have created angst for many taxpayers. A basic rule should be in place whereby if income is earned in this jurisdiction then the tax should be paid in this jurisdiction. Basic rules such as that against which no-one could argue irrespective of what angle they come from should be in place.

An argument can be made for the extension of some of the schemes in situations where unforeseen obstacles or delays outside the control of those involved occur. That is only fair and right. If developers are at an advanced stage in the preparation of a scheme and then unforeseen obstacles arise and the project is delayed to the extent that it is outside the time limits, it is unfair to penalise such developers.

With regard to the submissions received it is clear that the vast majority came from people who have a vested interest in the schemes. There were very few submissions from people who are not directly involved or likely to benefit from the various schemes and that is only natural. However, the fact that we are engaged in a public consultation process is important. Members of the public must be given the opportunity to have their say, if they so wish. If they do not avail of that opportunity, then they have only themselves to blame.

I have read through some of the submissions and almost half of those received were from writers and artists. A submission from one very well known writer deals with advances and explains how they operate. It also deals with the need to employ an agent and an accountant. It further laments the fact that many people have made a lot of money out of that writer's success. These lamentations were included to bolster the case for the retention of the writers' and artists' reliefs but I cannot see the point of the arguments. There are self-employed people all over the country who must employ accountants, though they may not need to employ agents. Such people have many costs to meet but are not making submissions to the effect that they deserve tax reliefs on the basis of such costs. I support the idea of the writers' and artists' scheme but it must be used to the benefit of those in need. It is obscene when it benefits those who earn millions of euro every year. That is totally wrong.

Mr. Cardiff

I will comment briefly on some of the points made by the Deputy. He referred to the fact that some of the schemes were beneficial to many areas of the country; to the issue of minimum and maximum limits; the case to be made for the extension of schemes; and the potential for unfairness within schemes. While the closure of certain schemes has been well signalled, the issues raised by the Deputy are all part of the review being undertaken and will be addressed by that review.

With regard to those with vested interests making submissions, while it cannot be denied that there is an agenda there, it is also good for the process in that those who are well informed on certain areas are making contributions. The relief for artists is one area where one can become metaphysical in the sense that one is talking about cultural and artistic benefits to the country, as well as pure economic benefits. However, I accept the Deputy's point about other self-employed people. We will take all comments into account as part of this review process.

I apologise for being late but I had to attend another meeting.

In October last year I received a reply from the Department of Finance to a query regarding the impact of taxation on individuals with incomes in excess of €100,000. The Department advised me that approximately 242 people with income in excess of €100,000 paid no tax. It was indicated that a number of these were millionaires. On foot of the debate which ensued from the provision to me of these figures, the Taoiseach and the Tánaiste said they felt this situation was politically or morally unacceptable. I welcomed their statement. People with very high incomes made no contribution in terms of taxation.

The Labour Party made a short submission to the committee, submission No. 65, which addressed principles and set out questions that we wanted answered. I want to ask Mr. Cardiff whether we will receive the information I have protractedly sought. This information falls within a number of categories. When we receive it, we will be in a position to make judgments. If we are informed that 11 millionaires did not pay tax, it is possible for people to reach a political conclusion as to whether that is acceptable. This reinforces the point made by Deputy Bruton that, as members of the Committee on Finance and the Public Service, we have limited access to information. I would like to know whether we will receive more detailed information, in addition to the Revenue Commissioners' study of the top 400 earners, about who pays tax. May we have this broken down into categories of income, such as bands of €10,000 or €100,000?

This study is meaningless unless we cut to the chase. The ordinary PAYE worker in a low tax economy, if he or she is single, pays a top rate of 42% on income over approximately €31,000. Difficulties are caused in terms of the social contract which should be in place between the taxpayer and the State if it is felt that some people in a golden circle get away with paying nothing. This exercise will be blather and will resemble bowling alone unless we receive information on the beneficiaries of tax breaks. In terms of taxation, there are two bowling alleys in this country. The majority of taxpayers must bowl along a strange alley and pay regular exactions from their earnings. Another alley is more select. We are learning about how access to the second alley is achieved. Up to 1,000 individuals, who represent the top earners in society, do not make significant contributions. A group of at least several thousand in various businesses have access to attractive schemes. I have asked about capital allowances for the Onasis yacht, which significantly benefit a small group of investors in this country. It is difficult to explain the ins and outs of tax unless meaningful comparisons can be made by someone taxed at 42%. In Mr. Cardiff's presentation there are many references to horizontal issues. In this case, the horizontal issues seem to be geographical. We will consider what happens to top earners in other countries but I will concentrate on the geography of this country and on why large numbers of people pay their full share of tax while others do not.

What is the tie-up, if any, between public policy in areas such as health and transport and the provision of tax breaks? A couple of years ago the then Minister for Finance, former Deputy McCreevy, famously told me that he developed the policy of tax breaks for private hospitals after a general practitioner in his own constituency wrote to him to say a tax break for a private clinic would be a great idea. I thought it was an idea worth trying but there is now a significant investment industry here with people earning €10,000 a day for advice on investment in private hospitals all on foot of a letter from an individual GP to the Minister for Finance who then decided to have a flutter. In this case, however, the nation is having a flutter.

Fianna Fáil went through some considerable soul-searching at the time the Hanly report was published. Some of the deepest soul-searching was in the Tipperary area, where there were large protest marches. I know Senator Mansergh is here. The Hanly report stated that hospitals with fewer than 300 patients were not viable, though in some respects this referred to specific facilities such as outpatient departments. Investment in private hospitals — and this is set out in the Labour Party's questions — seems to have no criteria attached that tie into broader health policy except that we are now told that it is to be the Tánaiste and Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Harney's final cure for medical services.

The opposition must be given information whereby any connection between an ad hoc tax break system and the needs of priority areas such as public transport and park and ride facilities can be seen. What is the relationship between the public good and the benefit to investors in the hugely lucrative private car park deal that cost Beaumont Hospital and the public purse €11million? There seems to be none. Will the Department of Finance weigh the costs, the public benefits and the alternatives?

I will give another example that concerns me. I thought about it as I listened to the Taoiseach talking about Professor Putnam's concerns about what is happening to society. Around the towns, villages and cities of Ireland, young people who want to invest in a home in which to live are outbid by investors, particularly for properties with tax breaks. The differential is as much as 30 per cent. In Dundrum where there is a Luas station and a large shopping centre, young people are looking to buy homes, maybe close to where they grew up, but the apartments that were built there benefit from tax breaks. Local people, young and old, find it difficult to compete with investors who have as much as a 30 per cent advantage. I am concerned about the consequences of investors effectively churning tenants so that no community develops because nobody stays long enough.

In terms of the broad attempt by the consultants to carry out a cost-benefit analysis for tax breaks, will the impact upon society of some of these developments be taken into account along with the balance sheet figures? Some of them are of very poor quality. Some tax breaks have released money for investment purposes that may have been kept in a mattress under the bed, or perhaps abroad, and such breaks have also led to developments in areas where there was none. However, some such breaks lead to investors competing with potential homeowners, and have fed inflation in the building industry at a time when that industry is working close to capacity. Taking this into account, will the cost-benefit analysis examine the broad picture, and will the committee get information about this broad outlook?

What mechanisms are in place in the Department of Finance for reviewing policies? Mr. Cardiff has already discussed dead weight, or an economic activity that may have happened or continued anyway. I am glad he raised that issue. This committee debated the introduction of a research and development tax break, which I supported because research and development expenditure is important to the country. However, I have been told that many accounting firms in Dublin have found weaknesses in the legislation that widen the definition of research and development more than this committee was led to believe by the Minister for Finance, Deputy Cowen, when he presented it. The committee wishes to know how much these breaks will now cost.

Patent income by directors is another well-known scheme, with company directors channelling money into patent income schemes. Are the cost figures available for this scheme? It is a reasonable scheme and important objective of economic policy for genuine patents, directors and companies which benefit, but it is known as one of the black holes with which to avoid tax in Ireland. It is on the Revenue Commissioners' list, but is it possible for the committee to receive information on it? If mature debate is to occur, issues such as this should be in the public domain.

Will the submissions be replied to specifically, particularly those which asked, as in the case of the Labour Party, for factual information and data on the connection between taxation and policy in areas such as health, child care, public transport etc? Until a rounded view comes about, it is very difficult to make a judgment. If such information is not received, the exercise will largely be a waste of time.

The committee was told some time ago that the Revenue Commissioners expected to have information around this time on returns from stallion breeders. How many such returns have been received and are the breeders making any money at all?

I forgot to ask Mr. Cardiff if the committee has permission to publish his opening statement.

Mr. Cardiff

It does.

I ask Mr. Cardiff to be as brief as possible in responding because some members have been here for a while and have not yet had the opportunity to speak.

Mr. Cardiff

With regard to whether stallion breeders are making money, they will probably say they are not if they are asked.

They are supposed to be informing the relevant authorities now.

Mr. Cardiff

Subject to correction, it will probably be October before those returns will begin to come in, perhaps even November if the on-line system is used.

Much material has been brought up for discussion by Deputy Burton. As regards the Labour Party submission and requests for information, we have asked the consultants the questions it has asked in terms of costs, etc. The submission refers to the possibility of getting a detailed picture of each relief for high earners. I suspect that will be more than the data will be able to provide. However, the other questions have already been asked.

As regards the important question about the extent to which social benefits and costs can be taken into account, the brief for any of the internal studies and for the consultants takes that into account. However, it also accepts that they are not balance sheet figures. The terms of reference for the consultants specifically ask them to look at the success of the schemes, to assess the extent to which the schemes have justified their introduction and to broadly assess the contribution each relief has made and can make to the wider policy objectives of the sector. It is not just about balance sheet figures. I suspect we will find that the balance sheet figures are not the real picture. I, somewhat facetiously, gave artists relief as an example where one could not put a balance sheet figure on the value of art, but one cannot put a balance sheet figure on the value of community integration, for example. Consultants and their people have been instructed to look broadly at the issues, not just at those parts which happen to be capable of being assessed with a particular number.

The Taoiseach and the Tánaiste were mentioned. I refer to the budget rationale for this review which probably does not stray too far away from the points made. As regards high earners, we are not talking about illegal practices and everyone accepts that in most cases. Many high earners pay a great deal of tax, but some do not. Questions were asked about equity. Consultancy studies and policy debates relate to equity. The Minister's budget speech in introducing this review touched directly on that question. It is not as simple as the country's high earners not paying any tax. It is slightly more subtle than that. There are many high earners who are paying high levels of tax relative to the marginal rates. In addition to the Revenue top 400, which was mentioned, that exercise will continue. We will continue to get such information.

As regards the tie-up on public policy, the health sector and the development of tax breaks, it was in that context the Deputy mentioned the non-balance sheet figures. We have a tax strategy group system, which I mentioned. People from various Departments are brought together in advance of the budget to discuss tax issues.

At that point the proposals for change are costed. When research and development was introduced two years ago, did the Department have a figure of what it was likely to cost?

Mr. Cardiff

We probably did not. It is difficult to estimate the cost in advance. However, if one is giving an incentive for a particular desirable outcome and it costs more than one expects, one will probably also get more benefit. The Department, Ministers and the people in Opposition have all said in recent years that the information flow must be better. It is for that reason we have seen in recent Finance Bills, for example, and in changes in Revenue practice a greater insistence on returns and a greater focus on getting good quality information. These reviews are an extension of that process. I am hopeful the information will be increasingly better and that the review process combined with the improved returns will give us much more.

We discussed the issue of young people being outbid for houses. The impact on owner-occupiers versus investors is one of the things the consultants have been specifically asked to examine in the property-based schemes.

The question relating to stallion owners was one for Revenue.

Mr. Irwin

I will begin with the question as to whether stallion owners make money, and I would hazard a guess that they do. As regards information on this, for the self-employed the first information becomes available on form 11/2005, the filing date for which is the end of October. We are also capturing that information now for corporates on the CT1. We hope to have early information at the end of 2005 for ROS filers. It will take a substantially longer period to capture that information for paper filers. Therefore, we will have early information at the end of 2005 or early in 2006 but it will be later for paper filers.

Currently, we find ourselves in a situation with regard to corporation tax that the uptake on ROS was slow because of particular issues that have now been resolved through TALC. We therefore expect to see a much higher rate of electronic filing of CT. We certainly hope so. That should bring forward the date on which we can have that information. If the returns continue to come in on paper it will be relatively slow to capture the information. As I explained, our priority always is to capture the assessing information, to issue the assessments and collect the tax in the first instance, and then to go back on the more detailed information, some of which is outsourced, in capturing it.

A question was asked about a more detailed breakdown. The 2002 report, which we will be publishing in October, will have a number of tables giving breakdowns, roughly up to €100,000 in the €5,000 range. There are a few checkpoints. There is a horizontal analysis of single males, single females and married persons, including tax aggregation. That is analysed up to €100,000 in tranches of €5,000, and in €25,000s above €100,000 and up to €200,000. Separately, we have the capacity to do almost any analysis on this. Periodically, we have given information, mostly in the context of replying to parliamentary questions. The only constraint on us is that in cases above €1 million we have had to go on fairly large chunks in reply to parliamentary questions just to provide anonymity and confidentiality. That information will be available again in the 2002 report which we will be publishing shortly.

Deputy Ó Caoláin

I welcome the opportunity for this committee to engage with representatives both from the Department of Finance and the Revenue Commissioners, on the submissions received for the review of tax reliefs and exemptions for higher earners. In some ways, the title indicates the situation because it is for higher earners, while we never see such tax reliefs and exemptions for people on middle or low incomes. We are addressing a major issue which goes to the heart of the taxation system. It points up the inequalities and inefficiencies that are rife in our economy and society. On my party's behalf, I have been calling for a comprehensive review of our entire tax system. I have purposely laid particular emphasis on a review of the wide range of tax breaks. Nobody would discount the claim that through property-based tax reliefs wealthy corporations and individuals have avoided paying their fair share of tax. People are anxious that this inequality should be addressed and that redress should result from this review. The review the Minister for Finance initiated in his Budget Statement last December was welcome but it does not go far enough because a comprehensive review of the entire taxation system is required.

Another key deficiency in this review process was the failure to bring its terms of reference before the Oireachtas to be addressed by Members in both Houses in order that a proper and detailed debate could take place about them. That is important because very often the question that one poses shapes the response one will receive. Are the right questions being asked? This needs attention. The most important and fundamental question that needs to be put is whether it is right to give a wide range of tax breaks without any measurement of the supposed social and economic benefits. This is the situation that applies. This is particularly true of property-based tax reliefs. The answer I would give is that it is not right. A number of tax reliefs are beneficial to the wider economy and society and should be retained while some can act as a catalyst for improving economic activity and that must be welcomed. However, too many of the existing reliefs do not come under that heading and, therefore, there are genuine concerns among the wider populace as a result.

One simple, basic principle must be adhered to regarding tax breaks. Before a scheme is introduced, it should be subjected to a rigorous cost benefit analysis. There should be a clear and informed evaluation of the cost and benefit to society and there must be an evaluation of whether the tax relief or exemption is the best way to encourage activity in a particular area. Might it be better done by some other means, for instance, by grant? These questions need to be posed and it is important that the alternatives should be examined. It is imperative that all such measures should be both poverty proofed and equality proofed, something which quite clearly has not happened heretofore. Those are some of the changes I hope will arise from the review. I hope the departmental and Revenue officials will note my remarks and they will not fall on deaf ears.

I refer to the submissions on which I have a number of questions. I commend submission No. 34 from CORI, which focuses on the need for equality but it also points to the need for reform of pension reliefs, which currently benefit higher earners disproportionately.

I again make the point that the cover note on these issues clearly indicates tax reliefs and exemptions for higher earners, those on whom much of this is focused. Perhaps departmental officials and Revenue will indicate whether they have taken a view on CORI's proposal to place a cap on the amount of money an individual may have in his or her pension fund. There is a similar scheme in Britain. Have comparisons been made? Is the review examining international comparisons? That is an important issue.

Has Revenue taken a view on the proposal for a limit on the value of tax reliefs of which an individual may avail in a single financial year? The proposition appears fair and equitable. CORI is specific on this and views such a limit as being €250,000, which, in my view, is extremely generous. What is the panel's view on that proposal?

Submission No. 81 comes from the Irish Congress of Trade Unions. While I concur with much of the union's submission, particularly its critique of property-based reliefs, I do not agree with the blanket opposition to urban and rural renewal schemes, although they may need to be more targeted with the element favouring property speculators being removed. The schemes should perhaps be carefully re-evaluated with new schemes being introduced to address urban and rural disadvantage in a more focused way. Have Revenue or the Department of Finance found any continuing justification, if there was ever one, for the capital allowances for multi-storey carparks? Perhaps the officials will address that issue.

I will now address the submission on forestry from Mr. Eamon O'Flanagan of Woodlands Managers Limited. Have the Department of Finance and Revenue sought further information from Mr. O'Flanagan regarding the withheld documentation to which he refers in his submission? Have the matters in the withheld documentation been pursued? Has consideration been given to linking these supports to the type of forestry planted, for example, sustainable woodland, including native and deciduous species, as against the current virtual blanket arrangement? Are these matters being considered in the course of the review?

The joint committee received submissions on nursing homes most of which were composite representations. However, I am unclear as to whether the submission from a woman, whom I will not name, was received prior or subsequent to the Leas Cross experience. In said submission, she expresses criticism of the over-dependence on private nursing homes for care of the elderly. I agree that we should not be so reliant upon them. However, in response to my question to him last June on whether the Leas Cross nursing home had benefited from the nursing homes tax break, the Minister for Finance claimed he was unable to give me that information and could not tell me the number of nursing homes that had benefited from it. Can the Department of Finance officials be any more forthcoming in that regard? Will qualification for such tax reliefs, if they are to be continued, be linked to proper standards of care? That is a key issue for the wider public. Tax reliefs and exemptions relate to the provision of particular services. Are they linked to the type of service provided? Is the standard of care of importance to the Department of Finance and Revenue in consideration of these reliefs for the development of a network of private care residences? The reliefs are paid from public money. Given that we have a vested interest in how such money is spent, the standard should be important.

The artists' exemption and film reliefs have been referred to by several members. I continue to support those reliefs. I am interested in whether the question of a ceiling has been examined or whether such an examination will be undertaken in this review.

With regard to the Sligo County Council submission vis-à-vis urban and rural renewal and better targeting and its specific proposal regarding Sligo harbour, which I visited during the summer recess, I concur that the specific area highlighted in the submission does need address. Will the officials elaborate on the matter of more focused urban and rural renewal supports? Has the Department of Finance examined the proposals from Sligo County Council on the harbour area? Do any lessons learned from how the urban renewal schemes operated in the past apply to the Sligo proposition?

Submission No. 14 from South Dublin County Council refers specifically to the urban renewal scheme operating in Tallaght town centre and highlights some of the major problems with it, most of which have to do with section 23 tax relief. The council points out that investors are favoured over owner occupiers. This is an important and serious issue. It shows that section 23 has aided and abetted the objectives of speculators over owner occupiers. It has aided and abetted landlords over tenants and has failed to properly focus on real need. It has favoured the speculative property sector against the social and affordable housing sector. I spoke to my colleague, Deputy Crowe, who represents the area with other Deputies, and he has advised me that there is also an issue with regard to the standard of some of the properties that qualify for section 23 relief.

Has the Department examined the Tallaght experience and what lessons can be drawn from it? Is the Department going into the nitty gritty with its review and is it following through on it rather than just examining in principle whether something is right, wrong or a grey area? Is it just looking at the overall benefit or cost or is it following through, especially in regard to nursing homes, quality of property and its impact on a given area and how, for example, it may drive up the cost of residential property and contribute to the ever-increasing difficulties of young couples to ever aspire to home ownership in this jurisdiction?

I had several other questions but will leave them. I would be grateful for whatever information can be shared. I hope the review will meet my expectations and those of others who watch it with great interest.

Mr. Cardiff

The Deputy is right to note the emphasis on high earners, although it is not that middle income earners or low earners cannot avail of some of the tax breaks being reviewed. The tax breaks are being reviewed as a whole but the concentration is on the two dozen being availed of by high earners. Although reviewed on an ongoing basis, reliefs that are widely spread and used are not being considered as part of this review. These include: SSIAs; child benefit exemption; stamp duty relief for new homes; mortgage interest relief; medical insurance relief; company group relief; and the exemption of private residences for capital gains tax. All of these are widespread throughout the economy. Although there is specific focus on these, it is quite wide-ranging. The reliefs concerned are those in which people have expressed most interest and about which they have shown most concern. The review process should give us considerably more information on them. Including the sorts of issues, such as inefficiencies, etc, to which the Deputy referred.

The Deputy asked about some of the specific submissions. He commended the CORI submission to us. It commended itself to us in that it is clearly written and makes specific suggestions on which we can give some reasoned opinion. Receiving such submissions justifies the public consultation process. The same is true of the IBEC and ICTU submissions, which also try to make reasoned comment. The Deputy asked if we had taken on board CORI's suggestion of having overall limits on tax reliefs and limits on pension reliefs. We have taken them on board to the extent that those issues are certainly being considered as part of the process. We have not taken them on board to the extent of having made decisions as the reviews are not yet finalised.

Deputy Ó Caoláin

Even if they were, would the officials from the Department of Finance tell us?

Mr. Cardiff

We always have our limits.

Deputy Ó Caoláin

We are listening carefully.

Mr. Cardiff

The sorts of issues raised in the ICTU submission are those which are under consideration. The Deputy asked about the justification for multi-storey car parks. I assume he is talking about the discrimination against single storey car parks.

Deputy Ó Caoláin

I will not even respond to that.

Mr. Cardiff

There is a long history into which we can go if the Deputy wishes. To answer his question, we have not yet come to justification, one way or another, on multi-storey car parks. However, such car parks are being reviewed and the cost and benefits are being considered.

In answer to the Deputy's question on forestry, links to the type of plantings would represent one of the issues. The big issues in forestry would include items such as deadweight, other schemes, etc.

Deputy Ó Caoláin

Will Mr. Cardiff comment on the withheld documentation on that matter?

Mr. Cardiff

I do not know the answer. The submissions are being considered by the people carrying out the various reviews. I do not know the answer to the Deputy's question.

I will now outline how the nursing home scheme is linked to regulation. In order to qualify, the homes must be appropriately registered with the Health Service Executive — formerly the health boards — which, as I understand it, is the regulator. A qualified nursing home must be registered with a health board under the Health (Nursing Homes) Act 1990. Developing the tax relief would have been a matter of discussion with the relevant Department and between the relevant Ministers, etc. If that Department had an issue, it would bring it to the attention of the tax strategy group or whatever in the context of the future use of those schemes.

I am not sure I understood the Deputy's point about artists' exemption.

Deputy Ó Caoláin

I asked whether the Department is considering introducing a ceiling. A number of other members also commented on the matter.

Mr. Cardiff

That would need to be considered as part of the review. We have a limited number of possibilities. We could leave it as it stands, abolish it or do something in between and a ceiling would be one possible mechanism that would address some of the issues raised.

I was also asked about the operation of various tax relief schemes in Sligo and Tallaght. The consultants were instructed to review the property reliefs. They were asked to produce detailed case studies to ensure that it will be a heuristic process of educational value. Not only do we need to know whether schemes are good or bad, in the round, but we also need to find out what is good about them and how they might be better utilised. That is the sort of matter to which Deputy Ó Caoláin referred when he mentioned the learning experience in Tallaght. If future schemes are introduced after decisions are made on foot of the review process, I hope the process will have helped us not only to determine whether, on the whole, schemes are good or bad but also to identify some of the specific aspects of the schemes which might make them better.

I remind everybody in the room that just over 36 years have passed since Mr. Charles Haughey introduced the tax incentive scheme for artists living in Ireland. Many of us were around at that time but some people were not. The inspirational decision to introduce the scheme was an example of leadership at its best. Not much respect was paid to artists and works of art before 1969. I totally support the retention of the tax relief for artists. I remind Deputy McHugh that if one is writing a book, creating a sculpture or working on a painting, one must wait for one's creativity to manifest itself. Having been in business, I understand that creativity and inspiration have a gestation period. It takes time to find inspiration.

If the Senator is in the business of reminding me of things, I would like to remind her of something. Mr. Haughey introduced the scheme in question to benefit struggling artists. Does she believe somebody earning €10 million per annum is struggling? If she does, she should grow up.

Members do not normally engage in mud-slinging in this room.

In that case, the Senator should not start engaging in it.

I did not insult the Deputy. I reminded him——

I do not need reminding.

He did not talk about how long it takes to bring a work of art through its gestation period.

I said I was fully in favour of retaining the scheme in question for people who need to benefit from it.

I will not continue to discuss the matter with the Deputy. I am totally supportive of the retention of the tax exemption for artists in all walks of life. Ireland has made a contribution to the world during the past 36 years as a result of Mr. Haughey's innovative leadership.

Are non-residents who benefit from tax exemptions included in the Department's review? I refer to people who make their money here but live abroad in places like Marseille.

Mr. Irwin

The rules of residence are not part of the review but the earners of income are obviously part of it. It is a sort of a yes and no answer.

Can Mr. Irwin explain it? I ask him to tease it out.

Mr. Irwin

I will try to do so without giving the committee a long lecture on residence. I am not sure I know enough about the subject to give such a lecture. There are various permutations and combinations in the questions of residence, domicile and ordinary residence. We need to consider the impact of double taxation agreements with various jurisdictions. The effect of residence and non-residence on taxation is a broad topic. The series of reviews of various schemes is not examining the matter. A particular dimension of non-residence may come into it but there is no specific paper on the topic.

That is what I thought.

I think the Taoiseach recently said in the Dáil that this issue would be examined. It might not have been part of the review that was announced on budget day but he said it would be looked at.

Yes, the Taoiseach referred to the issue in the Dáil.

He may or may not have been referring to this review.

Mr. Cardiff

We probably have details with us that would provide an answer to the question. We will try to find them.

Mr. Irwin

The Minister asked the Chairman of the Revenue Commissioners to examine the impact of residence on certain high earning individuals. This review, which is under way, obviously has a gestation period as we need to examine the various cases and the impact over time. The study is ongoing and the chairman expects to report back to the Minister some time in the coming months.

Is this separate study being done in parallel?

May the joint committee make a submission to the study? I have spoken on this issue, particularly the phenomenon of——

Yes, we may make a submission.

The joint committee has been informed that another parallel study on non-residents is under way. May we make a submission to the second study on which I have a great deal to say?

Yes, the joint committee will discuss the issue.

The tax relief for non-residents, about which the Revenue Commissioners will advise the Minister for Finance, sets a very bad example. As Deputy Burton stated, most people must pay income tax and they feel hard pressed, even though the Government has lowered income tax, which is brilliant. It sets a bad example that people who make their money here can buzz in and out of the country at late hours and be considered resident abroad. It is an example of greed which depresses those who are not greedy. Why are people so greedy? We should not allow this practice to continue at its current level. It would set a very good example in this small democratic country if the scheme were reconsidered.

A little over a year ago in the Seanad, I asked the then Minister for Finance, Mr. McCreevy, if he proposed to take action on this relief. He was quite short with me and answered in the negative. I raise the question again because we have a new Minister for Finance. The scheme is wrong from a tax equity point of view. While I do not mean to lecture the officials, I feel as passionately about this issue now as I did when I raised it with Mr. McCreevy in the Seanad.

As Deputy Ó Caoláin raised the urban and rural renewal schemes, I do not propose to dwell on them. However, I am aware of problems associated with tax exemptions for property located on the coast. In one village in County Wexford, for example, major tax exemptions are available for houses along the seafront. The village in question is sterile, except during the summer, because new properties, in which no one lives for most of the year, were built along the beach. Local residents feel bitter about this development. While we should maintain rural renewal tax reliefs — they are brilliant schemes — we should closely examine who are the beneficiaries. Local authorities and county councillors should take proactive measures to ensure that development is not allowed if it will result in villages being sterile for nine months of the year.

While I welcome the Minister's decision to examine reliefs, it would be wrong if the view that tax relief is not a good idea was to gain ground. I have been championing, within the Fianna Fáil Party, the concept of child care development and "educare" for every child born here and I made proposals on the issue in a submission to the Minister for Finance. To be honest, a very bad decision was made in May 2004.

Deputy Ó Caoláin

I thought the Senator was going to say in Ballyconnell, with which I would disagree.

No. Ballyconnell was brilliant.

Deputy Ó Caoláin did not come down to see us.

In May 2004 a decision was made that child care support would be given by means of the children's allowance payment. I must be honest and question whoever in the Department made that decision. The cost of child care in the city is about €8,500 per annum for one child. What I propose in my document is that the Government can no longer rely on children's allowance as its way of contributing to child care. A 20% contribution should be made by the Government per child per annum to reliable and bona fide crèches. This contribution should be paid via tax relief as a matter of urgency. Tax relief should not have a negative connotation.

Parents are desperate. I visited crèches where I met parents and crèche owners. I was there from 7.45 a.m. until 9 a.m. and I met a cross-section of parents. I also visited community crèches and other kinds of crèche facilities. I held public meetings. I said to parents in private crèches that they could pay for child care no matter how much it was but that some people could not afford child care due to the limited number of places available in the country. Those parents with money said to me that they are as badly off because they pay so much in child care.

Child care facilities are being examined. I heard from crèche owners that developers are getting money for this which is putting up the costs. I do not need to go into all that as we all know the argument. Owners got capital grants from the Government and subsequently received bills for €50,000 from the local authority for rates or something else. The situation is complex and is a mess. It would be awful if tax allowances were seen as negative.

I say to Deputy Ó Caoláin that I remember when we had no car parking in the city. We were tortured here in Dublin. We had no car parking until multi-storey car parks were constructed. I recall there was a great sense of relief when that happened. In the course of my business, I had to deliver to shops and stores. I felt a great sense of relief when we got the multi-storey car park near Grafton Street as I had to haul things up the street. The arrival of multi-storey car parks has made a great difference to people's experience of the city, not just for those doing deliveries as I was but for people just going about their normal business.

I propose that we increase our supply of child care places, by 12,000 places rather than by 6,500 per annum in the next five years. Tax relief and an increased supply would help to solve the problem. The child bearing age group, the baby boomers of the 1970s and 1980s are all having babies. Therefore, we have many more children who are under four years of age. Some 55% of women are in the workforce now compared to 40% ten years ago. It is said that we must look after stay-at-home mothers. I am all for that as well, in addition to increased maternity leave. Increases should continue to be made in children's allowance in order that parents who stay at home could benefit. We should be mindful of the 40% of mothers who stay at home for perhaps the first two or three years with their children at their own expense. They will be re-entering the workforce.

Speaking with my child care hat on, in the knowledge that the witnesses are the movers and shakers in this area, I must state that the decision in respect of the children's allowance was bad. When I raised this matter first, people said the issue was being addressed by way of the children's allowance. I asked them whether they knew how much it amounted to per week. One must put on one's feminine hat when addressing this issue because, with all due respect to the ladies present, the representatives opposite are mostly men. The women are carrying the burden of child care. The view that women mind children is embedded in men's DNA.

When I was visiting the crèches in the mornings, the fathers were under more pressure than the mothers due to the hassle and stress involved, bearing in mind that they were all stressed. The fathers, who had to travel to work in the financial services centre, complained they could not drop off their children until 8 a.m. because the crèches did not open until then.

People are discontented and edgy because stress and frustration are affecting their quality of life. Although they know they have more material wealth and are not paying high income tax, they believe stress is diluting their enjoyment of this particular time in their lives. I could go on for a week about this subject but I will not elaborate any further.

I thank Mr. Murphy and Mr. Palmer who offered me help when, starting out as a Senator, I was afraid of this committee.

Mr. Cardiff

The Senator raised many issues. I am not sure there is a tax answer to DNA but maybe there is a countervailing tax.

Is Mr. Cardiff going to show his feminine side now?

Mr. Cardiff

There is a long and a short answer. I am totally stumped now. Mr. Murphy recommends starting off with the seaside resort relief. He would be on solid ground.

The seaside resort scheme referred to has been abolished. The urban schemes are designed locally to try to target local needs. The rural scheme is slightly more widespread. The matters the Senator is raising concern social utility and are being considered. On the child care issue, the actual review is considering the scheme in question. On the other points the Senator is making, we will report directly back to the people involved.

The Chairman will be glad to hear I will be very brief. My view on tax exemptions is that someone else pays for them. If a certain amount of money is required to run the economy, the exemptions should be costed and have a demonstrable value. We should be sparing with them unless they fit the criteria very strictly.

I remember hearing a story on the news over the summer about the stallion tax exemption. I understand from the article that the European Commission was surprised by its availability because of the competition laws. Is that correct?

Are the terms of reference or the brief given to the consultants available? When the consultants were being engaged, while I appreciate the difficulties involved in quantifying time, unlike a design or other project, nonetheless they should have given some indication of how long it would take. It would be useful to have that information which might well have been given to the committee in the past. As I am only in the House a relatively short time, I may not be as up to speed in this regard as others. Is there a target date for the work being done internally within the Department? When a review is announced in the budget, there is a public expectation that reference will be made to this in the following budget as regards changes. It will be surprising if that is not the case, even if it is to be incremental over a number of budgets as regards the various topics being considered.

On child care, for example, and the tax incentives for providing it, will the Department consider whether that is the most appropriate way because the geographic trends suggest that some areas will have a plethora of places as a result of this initiative while others might have none? It could be that areas of economic disadvantage reflect a high need but a low level of delivery, for example. Will that aspect be reviewed when the Department is looking at the delivery of child care places? Obviously, availability is as key an issue as affordability. These are just some of the areas of interest.

Mr. Cardiff

We will send the Deputy a copy of the terms of reference. There is no problem with that. The target date, all along, has provided for the reviews to be done in time to inform the budget process for 2006, which implies a period within the next couple of months. On child care, the consultants are being asked not just to assess pros and cons but also, to some extent, appropriateness. Those are the types of issues they will be considering. It is a market driven process. When a tax incentive is provided the market is told, in effect, that it is getting a tax benefit. However, there are choices, including location. That aspect is inherent to any tax incentive scheme.

There is a certain amount of misinformation as regards the stallion exemption. Perhaps Mr. Liam Murphy might run through what is involved.

Mr. Liam Murphy

The Agricultural Directorate of the European Commission carried out the study. The Commission was told about the existence of tax relief for stallions several times in the late 1980s and early 1990s, but did nothing about it. Then we started examining it two years ago.

Is it expressing the view that this is uncompetitive?

Mr. Murphy

I quote what the Minister said on last Monday's "Morning Ireland", which is the up to date position:

As you know, they made a preliminary finding at the beginning of the year. We went and discussed it with them. We have had further correspondence from them and further discussions. As I have said to them, any changes will be considered in the context of the budget.

Is the Commission dictating the terms of competition policy?

Mr. Cardiff

It is a question of inter-Community competition involving state aid. The Commission has made a preliminary finding to the effect that this is state aid. Then there is a series of discussions and the Minister has said that if decisions have to be made this will happen in the context of the coming budget. However, a preliminary finding has been made.

Mr. Murphy

It is a preliminary finding. There were discussions at official level in February. The Ministers for Finance and Agriculture and Food spoke to the Commissioner in Brussels in May. There has been correspondence over and back since. That is the position as of today.

As I will be the last person to put questions, I will be brief. The appointment of two firms of external consultants to report on property based incentives is surely an admission that we know very little about the operation of tax reliefs within our system. Officials from the Department of Finance have suggested that the annual cost of tax relief is in the region of €8.5 billion, with property based tax reliefs costing €500 million. However, we do not know if either of those figures is true. These two studies may reveal the real cost to the economy of property based tax relief. It would seem from anecdotal evidence that some of these schemes were introduced the night before the budget and the lead in time was weeks or months. None operated on a pilot basis to gauge the economic, social, environmental or regional development benefits. It will be valuable if the studies undertaken by the external consultancy show that is the case.

I am disappointed at the number of schemes being examined in both these studies. There is scope to examine further tax expenditure on such schemes. Will the officials of the Revenue Commissioners and the Department of Finance state if they think other schemes merit such an investigation? I am upset that while some schemes are closed to new entrants, the tax expenditure will continue for several years. In the case of the seaside resort scheme, tax relief will continue for years and this scheme should have been included in the remit of either of the consultants' studies.

Last weekend I visited Bundoran, County Donegal and could see the impact of the seaside resort scheme. Some of it is good. However, there is now an over-capacity of bed spaces. A more serious element that merits further investigation which will be an issue for the Comptroller and Auditor General and the Committee of Public Accounts is that the criteria on which the scheme was administered seems to have been very much open to question. There were criteria on the ownership of properties. In individual cases the ownership had to be vested in the individual applying for the relief. That does not seem to be the case with many of these developments. There had to be criteria in terms of use being continued and augmented. It seems that some of these cases were residential and turned into commercial developments. This relates to one particular community with one application of the seaside resorts scheme.

There is also the fact that in terms of even the general criteria, there had to be ongoing and detailed discussions with planning officials of the planning department of the local authority concerned. There is only one planning officer in County Donegal. Many of these schemes were put through from the drawing board to an agreement from the Department of Finance on whether they should receive the tax relief in under 6 months. It is physically impossible to have the level of discussion and investigation required by a local authority and approval given, having regard to the number of people involved. I suspect that is the case in quite a number of the schemes for tax reliefs that were in place and continue to be in place.

I am not opposed to the concept of tax reliefs for the right reasons, particularly reliefs that are targeted to improve environmental behaviour. There is a case for several tax reliefs to be introduced. However, I question the need for property tax reliefs in an economy where 11% of our gross national product, our national income, is accounted for by building and construction. What possible incentive is needed for pump priming an already vibrant part of our economy? Serious questions need to be asked as to the policy implications in this area.

In terms of the climate of information that might follow from these studies, the Revenue Commissioners reveal the list of people who avail of but not the extent of the artists relief scheme every year. It seems to apply very selectively. We do not have the same scale of information for individuals or companies that avail of the whole range of tax reliefs. As an Oireachtas Member, I want to know why that type of information should not be and is not made available. If information exists for one tax relief, surely it should exist for all tax reliefs. The development of that kind of culture would be welcome. It should not be a matter of Government policy. It is a matter for the Department of Finance or the Revenue Commissioners.

The application of tax relief, particularly with regard to individuals, can be beneficial in progressing policy goals but it can also be a very blunt instrument. We know that tax reliefs disproportionately benefit those on higher incomes. The more income one has available to be written off against tax, the greater benefit one receives. This is particularly true with regard to the debate on how tax credits might be introduced for child care. For example, to a working parent on the minimum wage, a tax credit for child care is damn all use because there is no tax benefit. Unless we have a tax system that not only contains tax credits but refundable tax credits, through which individual taxpayers are given a paid benefit for the element of which they do not avail or for which they do not qualify, to try to progress social, environmental and regional development policy through tax incentives alone will be a very empty instrument of policy.

Mr. Cardiff

With regard to the Deputy's first point, that we are carrying out reviews is a statement that we need to know more — that is their purpose. With regard to the scope to examine other schemes to ascertain whether they have merit and so forth, we will take on board the Deputy's comments. The Deputy is correct about the effect of schemes still being felt in the system. For example, there is a long tail with regard to property schemes as one is building to last. The Deputy noted that schemes that have already been closed should also have been considered. A major review of the urban renewal scheme was carried out in 1996, for example. The lessons learned from that review carried on into later schemes.

The scheme in question was only introduced in 1996.

Mr. Murphy

It was introduced in 1995, before the review was carried out.

Mr. Cardiff

I take the point. With regard to the names of users of general tax reliefs, the officials of the Revenue Commissioners may be able to supply that information, although they may not know the answer off the top of their heads because the issue has a complicated history.

The Deputy stated that reliefs disproportionately benefit high earners, which is the case. That is in the nature of such reliefs because they aim to release capital, which is most likely to be in the hands of high earners, for socially or economically beneficial purposes while, by definition, diverting it from some other purpose. While that implies that this aspect of policy direction tends to be aimed at those with capital, that is not to say other aspects of overall policy cannot address other purposes.

The question of refundable tax credits is a major one and is not for me to decide. However, I will certainly take on board the Deputy's comments.

In regard to naming those availing of tax relief in general, there is an expectation among taxpayers that their personal details will not be released in regard to these schemes. I do not know the position in this regard in terms of the artists' exemption.

Mr. Irwin

I am not directly involved in this scheme but the number of artists in question is quite small. My understanding is that we must secure the permission of the individual artist before the relevant information can be published. In general, however, the names of those who avail of this scheme are already in the public domain because of the type of activity in which they are involved. In regard to the property schemes, for example, the numbers are significant. In this context, the publication of anything other than the fact that a person has availed of the scheme would be a total breach of Revenue confidentiality and absolutely out of the question. There is no provision under which we could do so without permission and the numbers would be unrealistically out of bounds.

Mr. Cardiff

I may be incorrect but my recollection is that there were particular freedom of information requests made to the Revenue Commissioners in regard to artists and certain charities. The numbers involved were relatively small which meant the Revenue Commissioners could ascertain whether the individuals concerned would object to being named. The public nature of the activities of the charities and artists in question meant there were no objections to publication in those cases.

In the examples I cited in regard to the seaside resorts scheme in particular, I observed that the remit of the investigation was quite narrow, being concerned with the economic benefits and the possible economic costs of introducing such tax reliefs. However, there is a wider area to be examined in terms of whether these schemes were properly applied and whether the criteria as they applied on paper were followed through. There are strong question marks in terms of the manner in which many of these tax reliefs have been applied. From the point of view of the Department and the Revenue, are there concerns in this regard and will there be further investigation?

Mr. Cardiff

I do not want to comment on particular cases but point out that the Revenue operates an audit system in regard to the tax system generally. Mr. Irwin may wish to comment further on this. If the Deputy has particular concerns about any scheme, I am sure the Revenue will take action on being informed of such.

Mr. Irwin

Mr. Cardiff has summarised the position well. Beneficiaries of these reliefs, like all taxpayers, come within the Revenue audit programme, either randomly or as part of a selective audit based on particular information on their circumstances. If there is any suggestion or detection of a fraudulent claim for these reliefs, penalties will be applied, including the possibility of prosecution, depending both on the gravity of the offence and the information available to us. However, we have no specific concerns about any broad-scale improper claims in terms of these reliefs. Any fraudulent claims detected are penalised.

I have a point of information for Deputy Boyle. On the issue of my proposal for tax relief on child care, he made the point that those who do not pay tax would not benefit. However, my policy document proposes that the 30% of the workforce who do not pay tax should get a direct subsidy——

A refundable tax credit.

——by means of social welfare. The other important point is that I have argued for a cap on this tax relief to allow a maximum of €1,700. This will ensure that a person who pays €20,000 for exclusive child care will not receive a greater tax benefit than those paying a more standard charge.

Mr. Cardiff

Does the Senator refer specifically to the child care scheme?

Yes. The tax relief should be capped and the same benefit should be provided through a social welfare provision to those who do not pay tax.

I ask members to bear with me while we decide what to do at the next meeting. I thank Mr. Cardiff and his departmental officials, as well as Mr. Irwin and officials from the Office of the Revenue Commissioners for attending today's committee. It was helpful and the meeting went on longer than expected, which is a sign that people have an interest in the topic. The committee will spend time on the issue in the coming weeks.

There are 18 submissions and, as many committee members have left, we should not agree a full schedule. Continuing on from today's topic, we will invite the Irish Taxation Institute, which is the main taxation body to make a submission on the matter. We will also invite the Arts Council, which is the umbrella body for artists, because almost 50% of the submissions are concerned with artists' relief. We can then decide which of the other groups to invite. We will discuss the matter at the next meeting on 21 September or at the subsequent meeting, depending on whether decentralisation is on the agenda.

The joint committee adjourned at 5.50 p.m. until 10 a.m. on Wednesday, 21 September 2005.

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