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JOINT COMMITTEE ON FINANCE AND THE PUBLIC SERVICE debate -
Wednesday, 15 Feb 2006

Scrutiny of EU Proposals.

The next item is scrutiny of an amended proposal for a Council directive amending Directive 77/388/EEC regarding the place of supply of services. The committee is joined by Mr. Ray Kavanagh, assistant principal, VAT policy, budget and economic division, Department of Finance; Mr. Ronan O'Reilly, administrative officer, VAT policy, budget and economic division, Department of Finance; Ms Clare Robson, principal, VAT policy and legislation, Revenue Commissioners; and Mr. Kevin Fitzpatrick, VAT policy and legislation, Revenue Commissioners. On behalf of the committee, I welcome the delegation and thank it for attending our meeting.

I draw attention to the fact that while members of the committee have absolute privilege this privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are also reminded of longstanding parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses.

I invite Mr. Kavanagh to make a brief presentation, followed by open discussion with members of the committee.

Mr. Ray Kavanagh

I thank the Vice Chairman. At the committee meeting of 11 January 2006 it was decided to invite us to discuss this proposal. Reference was made to the EU services directive, which will be voted on in the European Parliament tomorrow. The directive is designed to establish a legal framework governing the establishment and free movement of services within the EU. While services are mentioned in today's subject, it is an entirely different proposal.

Concerning the directive under discussion this afternoon, in July 2005 the European Commission brought forward an amended proposal concerning the place of supply rules governing the VAT treatment of cross-border services. The proposal, which deals with cross-border business-to-business, B2B, services and cross-border business-to-consumer, B2C, services replaces the Commission's earlier proposal of December 2003 which proposed changes in the rules governing B2B services only. This latter proposal, COM (2003) 822, was examined by the committee on 28 April 2004 and further material was provided by my Department to the committee in response to certain issues raised at that stage.

On that occasion it was clear that the changes proposed to the B2B supplies were mostly Exchequer neutral and, in many cases were designed to simplify VAT arrangements for cross-border services in order to reduce the administrative burdens on businesses, both on the supply side and on the recipient side. At that stage, it was also recognised that the main effects of changing the place of supply rules for services would manifest themselves in the B2C arena.

The new Commission proposal which we are discussing today brings together the full set of proposals for the place of supply rules for both B2B and B2C services. The Commission has simply merged the original B2B proposal of December 2003 with the new B2C proposals. Therefore, the only new material which the committee has not yet examined concerns the B2C services. In these circumstances, I propose to focus my opening remarks on the changes to the B2C services. We are prepared to answer any questions the committee may have regarding any part of the dossier.

In a VAT context, the place of supply rules determine the place of taxation, and since we are dealing here with cross-border services where the service provider is established in one member state and the recipient of the service is in another, the place of supply rules determine in which member state the VAT liability falls due. The overall objective of the Commission's proposal is to ensure that VAT accrues to the member state in which services are consumed. In other words, in most cases under the new proposal, the member state of the consumer would become the place of taxation rather than the member state of the supplier as dictated by existing rules. Discussions on the proposal are continuing under the Austrian Presidency and, while a number of member states maintain reservations on the proposal, it is likely that agreement, at least at a technical level, will be reached soon.

The reason proposals have been put forward at this stage to change the existing place of supply rules is that developments have taken place in the nature and volume of cross-border trade within the developing Internal Market. The existing place of supply rules no longer sufficiently guarantee that VAT applied to services accrues to the member state where services are consumed. In addition, the existing rules based on the location of the supplier provide an incentive for suppliers, particularly those engaged in certain on-line and telecommunications services, to locate to low VAT rate jurisdictions to gain competitive advantage over suppliers located in relatively high VAT regimes. This can lead to a diversion of trade and loss of VAT revenue in some cases.

Further difficulties may arise between non-EU and EU-based service providers of e-commerce and telecommunications services because, under a special scheme introduced in 2002, suppliers from outside of the EU are obliged to charge the VAT rate applying to such services in the member state of the consumer. For example, an e-commerce provider from outside the EU supplying services to a Swedish consumer is obliged to charge the 25% Swedish VAT rate, while under current EU rules, an EU-based supplier based in Luxembourg would charge the 15% Luxembourg VAT rate to the same Swedish consumer. The special scheme for non-EU providers is due to expire on 1 July 2006.

I will now examine in some detail the Commission proposal for B2C services and highlight where the main effects will occur. I will then consider the implications for Ireland from a business, consumer and Exchequer point of view. As already mentioned, the Commission's proposal for B2C cross-border services seeks changes in the place of supply rules for certain services which would locate the place of taxation in the member state of the consumer. This aligns with the overall objective of securing taxation in the place of consumption.

The Commission's B2C proposal affects services provided to private consumers and focuses primarily on services which can and are being delivered easily across frontiers. As a result, the key changes are confined to a small number of services, notably to those which can be readily supplied at a distance. These include electronically supplied services, telecommunications services and radio and television broadcasting services. Changes are also proposed in the areas of restaurant and catering services, short-term car hire and longer term car leasing services.

For completeness, the proposal also deals with certain B2C services which, for practical reasons, are governed by special rules and for which, in effect, the Commission does not suggest any change in VAT treatment. For the committee's information, these include services relating to property, which will remain taxable where the property is located, and services consisting of cultural, artistic, sporting, scientific, educational, entertainment or similar activities which are currently taxed where they "are physically carried out" and which, for clarity, will now be taxed where these events take place. At a practical level, this will not involve any real change as regards their place of taxation and will have no impact on our Exchequer receipts. It is also proposed that the rules concerning the place of taxation of intra-Community transport of goods and services will remain unchanged.

I will now examine the specific areas of short-term hiring and long-term leasing of cars, restaurant and catering services and electronically delivered and distance services under the new business to consumer proposals. It is proposed that the short-term hiring of motor vehicles, will be taxable where vehicles are "put at the disposal of the customer". Under the existing rule, this service is taxed where the supplier of the hire service is established. It is intended that the new rules will result in taxation being applied in the country where the car is used.

For long-term car leasing, the place of taxation will be where the customer is established or has his or her permanent address or normally resides. As for restaurant and catering services, the latest draft of the proposal provides that "the place of taxation of restaurant and catering services is the place where those services are physically carried out". At present, these services are taxed in the place where the supplier has established his or her business. For restaurant services, the change will have little or no effect as the services will be physically carried out at the restaurant, invariably also the place where the supplier has established his or her business.

However, there will be an effect for mobile catering service providers trading across borders. Mobile caterers who have established their business and are registered for VAT in the State would have to register and account for VAT at the 17.5% rate applicable in the UK when they carry out a catering service in Northern Ireland. Under current rules, they account for VAT at the rate applicable in the State for such services, in other words the rate where their business is established, which is 13.5%.

The Commission and most member states see these proposed changes as better reflecting the reality of where services are consumed and ensuring a level playing field between suppliers wherever they are located in the Community. This is of particular importance for Ireland where electronic services and services supplied at a distance are concerned. It is also proposed to shift the place of taxation to the member state of the customer. Electronically delivered services include those delivered on-line over the Internet, for example, software and digital music, games and videos and also distance teaching services. The scope of this change also extends to telecommunications services, including telephone services and radio and television broadcasting services.

Ireland's interest in a change of rules for distance services specifically relates to our growing e-commerce industry and the need for Ireland to be in a position to compete effectively in this global market. In this regard, the enterprise strategy group under the auspices of the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment identified the current VAT rules for e-commerce services as a "significant competitive disadvantage" for Irish companies operating in the B2C market. In its report of July 2004, Ahead of the Curve — Ireland's Place in the Global Economy, the group concluded that "this affects indigenous companies and it also makes Ireland less attractive to foreign companies that distribute B2C services electronically". The report recommended that "the Government should recommend to the EU that VAT on B2C electronic transactions be charged at the standard rate in the customer's location".

I will now consider the implications of the proposal for Ireland from a business point of view. Companies supplying services to private consumers in the B2C arena will be able to compete on a more equal footing with competitors in other member states. This is because B2C services will carry the VAT rate operating at the location of the consumer irrespective of where these services originate. Services distributed electronically from Ireland will, in general, become more competitive as a result and companies involved in this area should see a boost in demand for their products.

However, the new B2C arrangements will require Irish businesses to register for VAT in the member states where they supply services to private consumers. To cater for this, the Commission has proposed a one-stop-shop facility which would allow traders to meet their EU-wide VAT obligations electronically through their national tax authorities. Discussions are continuing under the auspices of the Austrian Presidency on the issue of the one-stop-shop. The proposal was examined by this committee at its meeting of 6 April 2005.

Returning to the B2C proposal, private consumers in Ireland buying services over the Internet or receiving TV broadcasting services directly from operators established in other member states will pay Irish VAT for these services, irrespective of where they originate. This would lead to consumers incurring an increased VAT rate where they are currently receiving services from providers operating from member states with VAT rates lower than Ireland's. While there would be an Exchequer gain from VAT in respect of TV and online distance services supplied directly from providers in other member states to Irish consumers, we have no information at present on the size of such revenue.

On the other hand, VAT currently accruing to the Exchequer in respect of online e-commerce services distributed from Ireland to private consumers in the EU would now accrue to other member states. Based on current data, it is not possible to estimate the implications for VAT revenue in this area. The new B2C rules should deliver significant benefits for Irish companies involved in supplying e-commerce and Internet based services with the prospect of increased demand for their products. New job opportunities could be expected in respect of indigenous companies involved in this area and also from increased foreign investment as a result of Ireland's enhanced attractiveness as a location from which to deliver e-commerce and Internet based services.

It appears that this document was written by finance officials rather than consumers because it seems to recoil at the thought of people getting cheaper services by sourcing their purchases from a country with a low rate of VAT. A lot of consumers would consider that be a case of the shopping around the Tánaiste advises them to do. Mr. Kavanagh understated the impact on private consumers in his remark that an increased VAT rate would be incurred where services are received from providers in other member states. While he indicated that producers would like this rule change, for the sake of balance, consumer interests should have been consulted in some way. However, there is no evidence of such consultations.

I note that he is not able to estimate the total impact of the directive. If I download music on line and am supposed to pay the 21% VAT applicable here, how does Revenue get hold of that money? If it knows the whereabouts of an Internet supplier, it can impose VAT at its place of business but it is now being proposed to collect VAT from an Irish person who sources music in, for example, Denmark. Will Revenue therefore have a set-up in Denmark to track what is provided to Irish consumers and, if so, is that not a contorted approach? The current provision that the place of supply determines the place of taxation appears to accord with Adam Smith's canons of taxation as being more convenient, although maybe Adam Smith has been blown away by the Internet and modern communications. The new provision may raise headaches for Revenue and permit leakage from the tax system due to the difficulty of tracking transactions.

Revenue is hanging onto a lot of other exemptions in a sort of row oneself approach, in which each sector has put their oar in to retain special provisions. I see the logic in some of these exemptions but does Mr. Kavanagh imply that, if an Irish business uses an non-Irish architect, it will pay at the 21% VAT rate because the property is located in Ireland, despite the fact that the service is delivered abroad?

Mr. Kavanagh

Yes.

To some degree, we are introducing this because we have chosen the highest VAT rates in Europe. Our standard rate is higher than any other country in Europe and our top rate is fourth. Given such a regime, the Revenue becomes supportive of locking in the consumer to high VAT rates. The case made by Mr. Kavanagh was somewhat unbalanced and consumers might have a different view of the matter.

Mr. Kavanagh

Before launching this revised proposal, which includes the business to consumer aspect, the European Commission carried out a public consultation. There were opportunities at that stage for industry and consumer groups to share their opinions.

The exemptions for property and cultural or sporting events are in place for practical purposes and it is clear in these instances where taxation should arise. Even though we are operating from different a basis, the general rule is that the place of taxation is where the supplier is located. These were merely mentioned for the sake of completeness.

Countries with the highest VAT rates include Sweden, Denmark, Poland and Finland and Belgium has the same VAT rate as Ireland.

Do we rate higher in terms of the 13.5% rate?

Mr. Kavanagh

I believe we are fifth but I will have to confirm that. A number of countries have higher rates, including, Hungary, which charges 15% in some cases and Finland, which has a 17% rate. I agree, however, that we are near the top of the list.

Is this being introduced in the interest of the big multinationals which sell on-line services throughout Europe? I understand that Revenue in recent years has had concerns on the potential loss of tax revenue resulting from the online sale of services by multinational information technology companies based in Ireland. Can Mr. Kavanagh clarify that matter?

I am concerned with the effects that the change in this rule will have on smaller businesses. Is Revenue conscious of the additional burden of paperwork that will be imposed if suppliers have to charge VAT according to the location of consumers? I note a reference to the Austrian Presidency and the one-stop-shop. This will impose a significant amount of extra paperwork on, for example, a small business on the Border which sells to customers in the North. Has that been taken into account? Businesses are obliged to retain programmes for the different Irish VAT rates, including the zero rate. We have three VAT rates, as well as the exempt activities aspect. In other words, therefore, we have four categories to begin with. Will smaller businesses routinely selling into the UK and Northern Ireland be obliged to significantly extend their records? Once they reach that threshold, many small businesses find it onerous. Although the systems are well set up, completing a VAT return is onerous. How does that tie in with the one-stop-shop? Will Mr. Kavanagh outline the position as regards multinationals?

Mr. Kavanagh

I will deal first with the question on multinationals. There is concern not only in Ireland but also in other member states that companies supplying on-line and telephone services have established sales operations in lower VAT rate countries and are selling to consumers in other member states. In such instances, the VAT will accrue to the member state in which they have established operations rather than in the country where the services are consumed. As some member states have experienced significant VAT losses as a result, it is a driving force.

Is that a problem in Ireland?

Mr. Kavanagh

I have spoken to the ComReg about on-line and telephone services. There is no problem with telephone services being sold back into Ireland by companies established abroad. Other countries seem to have been targeted more. Those with very high rates are obvious targets. There has been substantial diversion of trade from some countries into low VAT rate countries in order to sell services back into the higher VAT states and avail of the lower rate under the existing rules.

What about the one-stop-shop and the effect on smaller traders?

Mr. Kavanagh

My Revenue colleagues might also wish to comment on this. I did not concentrate today on the business-to-business aspects of this proposal, which will benefit businesses by streamlining VAT procedures and reducing the administrative burden for those selling in a business-to-business context. In the business-to-consumer context, as Deputy Burton stated, a one-stop-shop has been proposed by the Commission to alleviate the potential additional burden this would place on business. The details of that proposal are still being worked out and progress has been slow. Almost all member states agree that the one-stop-shop will be an essential support tool in respect of the implementation of the change in rules proposed for business-to-consumer. Otherwise, the additional burden on companies would be disproportionate to the benefits.

Will Mr. Kavanagh explain what the one-stop-shop means in this context?

Mr. Kavanagh

When companies sell to private consumers in other member states, the VAT rate in the consumers' states will apply. Deputy Burton is correct that companies will be obliged to know the VAT rates. The one-stop-shop is an electronic facility, operated by each of the national tax authorities, under which companies would be able to register for VAT on-line. Their details would be distributed to the EU countries in which they supply to consumers. They could also make their returns to individual member states on-line. The one-stop-shop proposal is detailed and many practical issues relating to its operation must be taken into account by revenue commissioners throughout Europe. The final details have not been worked out but there will be obligations on national tax authorities to facilitate the new rules under the one-stop-shop.

Unless a great deal of assistance is available, that will be tough on smaller businesses. Up to now, a supplier of goods has been obliged to deal with only four categories. If one sold services into, for example, Northern Ireland, the UK and France, one would have to keep an analysis for three separate VAT regimes. That is tough. There is a serious problem with the big multinational IT companies and many people in Revenue are terrified about our exposure to loss of VAT on the electronic sale of services by them. I have heard that matter discussed. This remedy is for multinationals. What about a relatively small-scale software designer based near the Border and doing business back and forth across it? It would be a nightmare. Could one consider thresholds for small and medium enterprises to prevent them from being caught up in this? VAT sometimes puts new businesses under because the owners go into denial and postpone dealing with it for two or three years. I foresee problems.

Ms Clare Robson

I recognise the Deputy's point on the burden to business of complying with VAT obligations. A small company supplying across the Border would need to know the rate. In general, the services we are discussing are taxed at the standard rate in each member state. Both the Commission and the revenue of each tax authority will have information on their websites to help taxpayers and give them the information they need. The one-stop-shop is an option to help taxpayers fulfil this obligation. Instead of being obliged to comply with the requirements in the member state of the consumer according to the consumer's VAT regime, they can opt for the one-stop-shop by which they may make a quarterly return to the revenue and the details will be passed on. They must still pay the VAT but the paperwork and the obligations will be simplified.

The main problem is that if I am selling services through my business to somebody in France or Germany, I must now invoice him or her and apply the VAT rates that relate to his or her country. The State imposes the tax but, as a business person, I am collecting money on behalf of the State. My invoice system will have to be upskilled to include these complex VAT situations for different countries. Although Ms Robson said that VAT on services is generally charged at the standard rate, many businesses have a number of strings to their bows. It is in the nature of small business. I hope they consider the impact on them because it is a very onerous requirement.

Do they enjoy a VAT free threshold of €25,000 in each country, or is there only one?

Ms Robson

There is only one threshold, based on place of establishment.

It is interesting that the presentation began by differentiating between this directive and the services directive, where country of origin is the key problem. There are similarities in regard to the regulatory issues that have been referred to. Not only will small businesses need to know the VAT rates — the consumer will also. If a consumer shops around for a service in Luxembourg or Latvia, Germany or France, the VAT rate will be a factor. It is not possible to separate the regulation of business to business operations from those of business to consumer because the impact is felt at the end of the line.

I found many items in the briefing note interesting. For example, it states that the shifting of the place of taxation to the place of consumption raises additional concerns regarding the proper application of VAT to cross-border services. It states that, accordingly, anti-avoidance provisions are to be strengthened under the proposal. How will they be strengthened? What measures do the Revenue Commissioners have in mind?

It also states that there is evidence of companies relocating to member states with attractively low VAT rates so as to gain competitive advantage in selling to industrial consumers. Can the delegates elaborate on that? Are options being considered to address this issue? If something causes a competitive disadvantage to Ireland we are normally quick to draw attention to it. If a gap is plugged for business that will be to the disadvantage of consumers what do they have in mind to strike a balance?

It also states that there will be no impact on Exchequer receipts. On whom, then, does it impact? What percentage of the VAT take do the delegates anticipate this will affect? Will it be tiny or substantial? Given that we are an exporting country and given the significance to us of information technology will the effect be proportionally larger? I concur with the point that the consumer should be taken account of in the consideration of the proposal. Otherwise it will be very one-dimensional.

Will delegates respond to Deputy Burton's points?

Mr. Kavanagh

The Deputy raised five or six issues. In a business to business context, proposals have been made by the Commission to enhance the VAT information exchange system as part of the anti-avoidance measures to ensure VAT is collected at the consumer end of a service. Currently — my colleagues will be able to go into greater detail — transactions involving goods are tracked and the resultant information is exchanged among member states. It is proposed to extend the system's scope to include the recording and exchange of services.

The suggestion was made that there will be more disadvantages for consumers than for businesses. Overall the change of rules will give rise to benefits. There would be more clarity for businesses as to what VAT rates apply and less requirement to use the rather cumbersome VAT refund system currently applicable under the 8th VAT directive, the operation of which we understand is quite inconsistent across Europe. We must emphasise the benefits for e-services because Ireland has ambitious objectives of being at centre stage in e-government and e-commerce. The enterprise strategy group has consistently requested a change in the rules because it sees that current arrangements based on location of supplier, given Ireland's VAT rate, is a disincentive for a foreign investor to deliver on-line services from Ireland. It also affects the competitiveness of indigenous industries in that area. It is difficult to put a figure on it but it is a growing area and one from which Ireland has already benefited. It is considered that we can benefit quite significantly from these new arrangements. There are advantages and disadvantages for the Exchequer. It will gain from VAT that currently goes abroad under the place of the supplier rule. The place of the consumer rule — where the VAT rate applies in Ireland — will now apply in the case of these services. On the other hand, VAT accruing to the Exchequer with regard to the current level of delivery of on-line services to other member states will now go to other member states rather than accruing here. We are coming down on the positive side of this issue, although we are aware of lost opportunities for Ireland as a result of the current VAT arrangements, with regard to companies setting up here, for example.

I advise the joint committee that there is a vote in the Dáil. Will we suspend?

There are two points, one regarding the percentage of VAT applying to these services and another relating to evidence that companies are relocating in member states with attractively low VAT rates. This is a basis of the country of origin factor in the services directive. There is a relationship in that companies are shifting around to gain an advantage. Is this the only way of dealing with the issue?

Mr. Kavanagh

I am not sure if it is the only way of dealing with it. The reason companies are shifting is the current VAT rules. The intention is to change these rules in order to get a level playing field in all member states, irrespective of where a service originates. The same VAT rate will apply within each member state. In other words, the same standard rate will apply to those services. If a service is received in Ireland and the service provider is in France, Sweden or Germany, the Irish VAT rate will be imposed on the service.

We will suspend until after the Dáil vote. There is only one item left to discuss, which is short. Members may wish to pursue this matter further.

I would like to make a contribution at that stage.

Sitting suspended at 4.35 p.m. and resumed at 4.50 p.m.

We will resume. Has Deputy Murphy completed her contribution?

I have finished.

I thank the Department of Finance, assisted by the Revenue Commissioners, for its presentation. I will put an interpretation on it rather than a question and please correct me if I am getting anything wrong. This seems to be a substantial and important piece of EU legislation from our point of view as Ireland is already in many ways, because of our corporation tax, one of the most attractive if not the most attractive place in the European Union from which to do business. This legislation will neutralise what one might call negative competitive factors given that our VAT rate is higher than in most other EU countries. Effectively, somebody exporting services from Ireland will benefit from the low business tax rate but will also benefit from low VAT rates where they apply in the countries they are supplying, which will then make Ireland an even more attractive place from which to do business Europewide. That is virtually bound to have a positive effect on Exchequer receipts. It is undoubtedly ironic, as others, notably Deputy Murphy, have noted that this legislation appears to go in the opposite direction to the more caricature versions of the services directive because the rules apply at the place where the goods are supplied. It is specifically designed to avoid displacement and what is popularly referred to as "the race to the bottom".

One can argue about historical references being made to high VAT rates. Certainly the older members amongst us will remember when the high VAT rate regimes were introduced in the 1980s. I remember the July 1981 and January 1983 budgets when the rates increased to 35% and 30%. Thankfully, the rate has been considerably reduced. Of course, the thinking behind it was to shift the burden of taxation from income tax, in theory more progressive, to indirect taxation, in theory more regressive, though there are a number of goods zero VAT rated which mitigate a VAT effect. The net point on which I would like the delegation to comment is whether I am correct in seeing this as of considerable economic significance from the point of view of making it more attractive to do business from Ireland.

Mr. Kavanagh

I concur with Senator Mansergh's view. We are speaking here only about on-line services. That particular sector is very important from Ireland's point of view. Our standing in that area is well known and we have attracted considerable foreign investment into the IT sector. Given the skill sets and the experience now available in terms of the resources feeding this area in indigenous companies, it represents a sizeable and important aspect of our economy. Certainly the enterprise strategy group is clear that the new arrangements being proposed would enhance our standing in that area. I would agree with it.

That concludes the discussion on this item of the agenda. On behalf of the committee, I thank Mr. Kavanagh and his colleagues for their attendance and participation in our debate.

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