JOINT COMMITTEE ON FINANCE AND THE PUBLIC SERVICE debate -
Wednesday, 5 Jul 2006

Business of Joint Committee.

Chairman

The draft minutes of the meeting of 28 June have been circulated. Are they agreed? Agreed. No matters arise out of the minutes.

There is not much correspondence and we will be able to quickly move through it. The schedule has been issued. The first item is a letter to the clerk from Bank of Ireland. We wrote to the various financial institutions concerning their account switching procedures, requesting that they update the committee. We will wait to receive all of the replies before deciding how to deal with the matter. Is it agreed to note the number of replies received?

Deputy Bruton

The reply states that new legislation would be required to allow the transfer of a mortgage to a new lender without any change in the mortgage's validity or priority over other mortgages. Perhaps we should write to the Department of Finance to determine whether it is considering amending that legislation.

Chairman

Is the Deputy referring to the Bank of Ireland letter?

Deputy Bruton

Yes.

Chairman

We will send that reply to the Department of Finance and ask for clarification in respect of it. We will be able to consider all of the responses when we have received them. Is that not a fair comment?

Deputy N. O’Keeffe

The switching is being co-ordinated by the Irish Bankers Federation, IBF. While I was not present for the meeting before last, I am aware that this matter was addressed at the meeting before that and at our most recent meeting. Allied Irish Banks replied to us. Why do we not ask the Irish Bankers Federation to discuss the matter with the committee, which would be the proper way to deal with it instead of through correspondence? We should discuss it in a face-to-face situation. I do not doubt that the federation's representatives will attend. Mr. Pat Farrell would be delighted to tell us what is happening.

Chairman

We could do that.

Deputy N. O’Keeffe

I do not know whether it will be good or bad news, but he will brief us on whether legislation is necessary. This issue arose as a result of a question I posed on mortgaging. I complained about switching mortgages and, judging by Deputy Bruton's comments on the Bank of Ireland letter, it is not possible to transfer a mortgage in certain circumstances. We require an update and we have the entire month of July in which to obtain it. The Galway races do not take place until August.

Chairman

The committee decided to write to the financial institutions and the Irish Bankers Federation.

Deputy N. O’Keeffe

Why not invite representatives of the IBF, which is the co-ordinating body and similar to a trade union, to appear?

Chairman

We can do that when we receive the information.

Deputy N. O’Keeffe

Can we issue an invitation today? Otherwise we will only be tinkering with the issue.

Chairman

We received a response from the IBF, which has indicated that it would be happy to send representatives to meet us. Do members agree that we should invite the Irish Bankers Federation to discuss the issue of switching mortgages?

Deputy Finneran

I agree that we should do so in order to obtain the views of the federation on the switching of mortgages.

Deputy Cregan

While we are issuing invitations, we might consider inviting representatives of the credit unions to appear. Many of us have been lobbied with regard to section 35 of the Act and it may be an opportunity hear the story from the point of view of the credit unions.

Deputy Bruton

Did we not already include this in our work programme? We agreed to meet representatives of the credit unions.

Chairman

Out next regular meeting will take place on 19 July. The committee also agreed to meet on either 12 July or 26 July. On one of these dates we can meet the Irish Bankers Federation or the credit unions. The two topics involved are unconnected but we could deal with both on the same day.

Deputy N. O’Keeffe

The credit unions are governed by the Friendly Societies Act, which comes within the remit of the business of the Joint Committee on Enterprise and Small Business. Fianna Fáil members discussed their sympathy for the credit unions at a meeting of the parliamentary party.

Chairman

The legislation must come from the Department of Finance.

Deputy N. O’Keeffe

Is that correct? I do not want to offend the Chairman of the Joint Committee on Enterprise and Small Business, Deputy Cassidy.

Chairman

Yes, a former Minister for Finance had a battle with the credit unions. The credit unions come within our remit.

Deputy Cregan

The current Minister for Finance is being lobbied.

Deputy Ó Caoláin

We met representatives of the credit unions before.

Chairman

Can we agree to deal with mortgage switching and the credit unions during July? Is it agreed to meet on July 26, subject to the availability of the room? It will probably be in the afternoon.

Deputy C. Murphy

Are other groups coming before us in July?

Chairman

We will meet on 19 July and on one other date.

Deputy C. Murphy

Deputy Ó Caoláin made a request regarding the Chief State Solicitor and the autism group. His views on legal advisers are on the record of the Dáil, some of which I agree with and some of which I do not. We must address the financial aspect of this.

Chairman

That is likely to happen in September.

Deputy Ó Caoláin

We agreed to meet to discuss this issue and now it is a matter of scheduling it.

Chairman

Yes. We should schedule that for September because we have agreed to two further meetings in July. We will meet the credit unions and the regulator and the Irish Bankers Federation to discuss the switching of mortgages. These matters will be discussed at meetings on 19 and 26 July. We must contact people to check their availability. We will have disposed of our work programme for July with these two meetings.

The next item is a letter to the clerk to the committee, enclosed with which was a copy of a quarterly magazine, The Bridge. Our next item is No. 443, concerning total expenditure on State legal costs. A letter from the Department of Finance deals with the legal costs to which Deputy Catherine Murphy referred. The Department states that on completion of the report the working group will submit it to the Minister for Finance. The interest of the joint committee in the report is noted. Some preliminary information on legal costs at tribunals has been supplied but this is only part of what we sought. The report is not yet complete. The committee wishes to see the report when it becomes available.

The next item is a letter to the Chairman from an individual regarding the Information Commissioner. This can be noted and is the next matter on today's agenda. Item No. 445 is from First Active plc and concerns mortgage switching. It should be noted.

Item No. 446 is a letter from the managing director of Campbell Gentry regarding a meeting with the managing director of Visa. The company has made an offer to meet members on 2 or 3 August. Any member who wishes to attend may contact the clerk.

Deputy N. O’Keeffe

It is relevant. It was first introduced in 1960.

Deputy Ó Caoláin

What is the purpose of the meeting?

Chairman

It will not be a formal committee meeting. It will involve visiting the company's offices and concerns the disappearance of Laser cards and the arrival of Visa debit fee paying cards. The changes in this area may be of interest. Visa is only one of the companies involved but it is a major player.

Deputy Nolan

Where will the meeting take place?

Chairman

The letter is not specific but I presume it will occur in Dublin.

Deputy N. O’Keeffe

I am interested in attending, as is Deputy Nolan.

Chairman

We will arrange for a group to attend.

Deputy N. O’Keeffe

It is scheduled to take place at the same time as the Galway races.

Chairman

That is very important.

Senator J. Phelan

What about the Deputy's place in the tent?

Chairman

The next item is a letter to the clerk from the Irish Nationwide Building Society regarding mortgage switching. The next letter is from the Irish Bankers' Federation, representatives of which will be invited to attend a meeting of the committee.

Deputy Ó Caoláin

To what does the letter refer?

Chairman

It refers to mortgage switching.

Deputy Ó Caoláin

What action is the Chairman suggesting?

Chairman

We wrote to the financial institutions in respect of mortgage switching. Some replied directly and others stated that the Irish Bankers Federation will reply on their behalf. Representatives of that body will attend one of our meetings, probably on 26 July. They will speak on behalf of the banks and this will be better than having representatives of 12 different financial institutions attending.

Deputy N. O’Keeffe

May I return to the matter involving Visa, which is much more important than we realised? It will brief the Department of Finance and invites members of the committee to attend. This is heavyweight stuff. The committee will criticise this development in six months' time and suggest that someone abused the public. I urge the Chairman to take positive action. I know it is a bad week to have the meeting.

Chairman

While I suggest that members of the committee may be happy to attend, it would be inappropriate for the committee to meet one commercial organisation to discuss its product. This committee cannot endorse one product.

Deputy N. O’Keeffe

Visa is one part of the plan and it is a franchise.

Chairman

It is only one of the franchises. I can go through my pockets and find four different cards.

Deputy N. O’Keeffe

Yes, but they relate to Visa franchises.

Senator J. Phelan

The Chairman should cut them up.

Chairman

They can be expensive. It would be appropriate for members of the committee who want to avail of the opportunity to meet representatives of Visa. I do not think the committee should formally do so.

A letter was received from Deputy Bruton in which he lists topics of direct concern in respect of the review of section 32 of the Freedom of Information Act. All members were asked to forward their priorities. The Deputy has done so and I thank him for that.

No. 450 is a communication from the Irish Bankers Federation regarding defined benefit pension schemes for bank staff and a reply on AIB. I suggest that we note the letter.

No. 451 relates to AIB mortgage accounts. We will note the letter and consider it for our next meeting. The next three letters are from Bank of Scotland, National Irish Bank and EBS, respectively, and relate to the same issue. We will note them. No. 455 is another letter from AIB plc regarding mortgages, which we will note.

An e-mail was received from Senator O'Toole on retirement benefits for civil servants. We stated that we would discuss pensions in the autumn.

The next matter is EU scrutiny, which will be on our agenda at the next meeting on 19 July. That completes the correspondence and we will now——

Deputy N. O’Keeffe

There is another matter in the correspondence about which I am concerned. It is a communication from Deputy Hogan and is relevant to my locality. It relates to the employees at Mallow sugar factory. It is in the Chairm an's file.

Chairman

Do I have that letter?

Deputy N. O’Keeffe

Deputy Hogan sent it to the committee.

Chairman

When? Is it in the file? Is there a number on it?

Deputy N. O’Keeffe

Perhaps I am confused.

Chairman

It relates to the other committee of which the Deputy is a member.

Deputy N. O’Keeffe

It relates to money.

Chairman

It is a matter for the Joint Committee on Enterprise and Small Business. Deputy Ned O'Keeffe is also on that committee.

Deputy N. O’Keeffe

I apologise.