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JOINT COMMITTEE ON FINANCE AND THE PUBLIC SERVICE debate -
Wednesday, 5 Jul 2006

Review under section 32(2) of the Freedom of Information Act 1997.

The next item is the review under section 32(2) of the Freedom of Information Act 1997. We were requested by the Dáil to compile a report on this topic. Last year, we received reports from Ministers. These were sent to the Information Commissioner who then replied. We later received her response to replies on points of difference. Representatives of the Department of Health and Children, which had most areas of difference with the Information Commissioner, came before the committee. We are now down to the net issues. A short report was sent to committee members, which is extremely helpful.

Today we will consider the approximately 30 issues in respect of which points of difference remain between the Information Commissioner and the relevant Minister. The total was 150 but agreement has been reached on 120. We can agree to disagree. I want to finish this report because we cannot keep discussing it for the rest of the summer. People will have positions and we can talk at length or conclude these issues. The first item——

There is a letter from Frank Daly. To what does it relate?

This man wrote to the committee and we agreed that we would forward the letter. It is part of the outward correspondence we decided to include for the benefit of members.

On the Freedom of Information Act, only one item of difference arose regarding the Department of Agriculture and Food, which relates to the European Communities (Authorisation, Placing on the Market, Use and Control of Plant Protection Products) Regulations 2003. The Minister wants to exclude it but the Information Commissioner disagrees. The Department argues that it is not required to include it, based on the text of the Council directive. The regulations implement a Council directive on a range of restricted information supplied by companies seeking authorisation for the marketing and use of their plant protection products. Where it is possible, we will obtain agreement across the board. Is it agreed that this continues to be excluded from the Freedom of Information Act?

My prejudice is that it should be included on the basis that the Information Commissioner has the power and obligation to consider confidentiality when making a decision. Citing confidentiality is not sufficient grounds in my view, although that is not based on detailed knowledge.

One of the points raised applies in respect of a few issues. The information supplied will involve commercial secrets, as well as general confidentiality.

Commercial confidentiality is covered under the sections of the Freedom of Information Act which apply to it.

To help bring this to a conclusion, the net point is that the Department takes the view that it is in a better position to decide on matters relating to commercial confidentiality than the Information Commissioner, who is not a commercial operator.

No. If, however, she is not commercially adept, she is obliged to obtain the information so that she can make proper decisions in her duty to protect commercial confidentiality.

And if the Department is not happy with her decision, it can appeal it on a point of law.

Yes. I presume we will hear more about this matter.

Very well, we will move on.

The same matters will recur unless they are challenged. It is the responsibility of the Information Commissioner to properly implement the Freedom of Information Act if a confidentiality issue arises.

Is it agreed that in our report, which we will try to conclude before July, we should recommend that this provision be included in the third schedule and come within the remit of the Freedom of Information Commissioner? Agreed.

No points of contention arise in respect of the Department of Communications, Marine and Natural Resources because the Minister has agreed to include it under FOI.

With regard to the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, the Dormant Accounts Act and the Unclaimed Life Assurances Policy Act concern the disclosure of information by financial institutions to an inspector engaged by the Financial Regulator to ensure compliance with the legislation. The Financial Regulator carries out inspections in respect of these organisations and a general procedure is in place throughout the EU that information held by financial regulators and central banks is not subject to freedom of information legislation. Other EU central banks and financial regulators will have difficulty dealing with the Irish Financial Regulator if the latter is subject to freedom of information legislation and they are not. That may also arise on other points.

Before moving away from this matter, elaboration is required. To what does the comment on extending the Freedom of Information Act to private financial institutions refer? I presume it does not refer to the Central Bank per se. It does not have an immediate function in respect of the dormant accounts issue.

Dormant accounts and unclaimed life assurance policies are moneys in financial institutions. Where the Financial Regulator inspects information regarding that topic, it wants the information that it gathers not to be subject to the Freedom of Information Act because EU financial regulators do not normally make information open. Is that clear?

Yes. However, I am not satisfied that is a hook on which to hang disagreement.

Again, the Information Commissioner believes that this is a power of determination to be left with her.

I have checked the detailed correspondence from the Minister and the point is that by extending the Freedom of Information Act to where the Financial Regulator obtains information on private financial institutions, non-disclosure provisions could then be extended to them. The Freedom of Information Act is only for public bodies. This is an example of the Financial Regulator possessing information on a private organisation. This provision is to ensure that the information relating to the private organisation — such bodies are not subject to the Freedom of Information Act — will remain private.

I see merit in that. We should not use freedom of information requests to a regulator to gain access to information on a private sector company that is not subject to the freedom of information legislation.

The Chairman has given us an elaboration of the Minister's position, which he has sight of and we do not. Will the chairman——

We all have these documents — we have had them since 8 May. The Deputy received the documentation. He is not arguing that point — I accept that — but he does not have it in front of him.

I do not have the document in front of me. I ask the Chairman to give us an elaboration of the Information Commissioner's position because we need to hear the alternative view.

I will do that. I will read from the Information Commissioner's response, which all members have seen:

Equally, the Department says that the non-disclosure provision of the Unclaimed Life Assurance Policies Act, 2003, is essentially the same as the exemption provided under section 22 of the FOI Act in relation to refusal of access on the basis of legal professional privilege and that it should be excluded from the Third Schedule. For the reasons already stated in the previous paragraph, I cannot support this view.

I will go back to the previous paragraph. The commissioner states:

I cannot support the Department's view in this regard because, not least, section 22 of the FOI Act is neither connected to, nor dependent on, any provision in statute. I take a view that section 26(2) should be included in the Third Schedule and that requests for access to records of this nature should be decided only by reference to the safeguards of the FOI Act.

The commissioner is essentially saying she is able to distinguish, from a freedom of information point of view, whether access to these records should be given.

The issue is whether the banks have made sufficient effort to identify that these are unclaimed policies that should be surrendered to the State. Is that correct?

The bank would have an interest in sitting on those policies, arguably.

The Department, through the Financial Regulator, is claiming a legal professional privilege on the records. Ms O'Reilly, the Information Commissioner, is arguing that she should be allowed to decide, through freedom of information, whether access should be granted. Essentially, the Department is claiming legal and professional privilege over the documents.

I wish to make a closing comment on this matter. I take the view that the Department might very well say that, would it not? Ms O'Reilly's sense of the matter is the one with which I would have most empathy. Deputy Bruton alluded to the fact, just a moment ago, that the banks might very well sit on the policies. When is dormant officially recognised as dormant? What extent of moneys, down through the years, has accumulated? What actions are regarded as maintaining a particular account live over any given period of time? There is an enormous public interest factor here, quite apart from the private citizen's interest and the bank's interest is subservient to both. The Information Commissioner has a valid argument that merits consideration. I share the confidence she expresses in her ability, through her office, to make that final determination.

What is the general opinion on this matter? Should we recommend that these sections should come under the Freedom of Information Act? We are saying that they should be included. Is that agreed? Agreed.

The next Department to be dealt with is the Department of Education and Science. The first item is section 53 of the Education Act and league tables and the next item is section 28 of the Commission to Inquire into Child Abuse Act. We will deal with the league tables first. There is no need to discuss the matter because it has been discussed at length. Should they be included? The question is a simple one. We all know the issues at stake here.

I concur with the opinion of the Information Commissioner. The trouble is that one is giving a belt-and-braces exclusion to the Department.The Department is starting to recognise that its attitude to school inspectors' reports is far too ostrich-like and is starting to publish them. We should have confidence that the Information Commissioner will take a reasonable approach. Conscious of what the Oireachtas has provided for in the Education Act, she will use this power in a more reasonable way than the Department of Education and Science has traditionally done. According to the commissioner, the impact of this goes well beyond the prevention of crude league tables. The Department is using a very broadly based power in a way that effectively prevents information becoming available to the public. I believe we should go along with the commissioner on this issue.

Is that agreed? Agreed. We will propose it be included and it will be up to the Government to respond accordingly. We are just making our submission on the matter.

The next item is the Commission to Inquire into Child Abuse Act 2000. Members can see that the Minister wants it excluded. She believes it would be unfair to a person giving evidence to subsequently allow scrutiny of that testimony. I am of the view that people appearing before the Residential Institutions Redress Board and the Commission to Inquire into Child Abuse are guaranteed confidentiality and we should not to do anything to undermine that. If we do, we will undermine the whole basis of how they operate. We should continue to exclude it from freedom of information requests on the basis that people will not come forward with their stories if they know they could be released under the freedom of information legislation. That is my opinion on the Commission to Inquire into Child Abuse Act and the Residential Institutions Redress Act.

I strongly agree with the Chairman on that point. However, a bone of contention for me is that there is an enormous amount of information that the redress board is using which is old data, retained for example by the Department of Education and Science, and is not available in the public domain. It demonstrates the relationship between the State and the institutions, rather than between individuals and the institutions. That type of information should be available for public inspection, particularly to people who have a direct interest. The answer to the question depends on exactly what type of information one is excluding but on the issue of personal information from the people giving evidence, I agree with the Chairman.

I understand where the Chairman is coming from and have sympathy with his position. However, I wonder about, for example, the case of Ms Marie Therese O'Loughlin, who is camped outside the gates of this House, and the failure over months to establish the truth concerning what had been erroneously referred to in the early months of her protest as the "Morning Star mother and child unit", which subsequently transpired was the Regina Coeli institution, operated under the aegis of the Society of St. Vincent de Paul. We, as Members of this House, had great difficulty in securing the full information relating to that institution and the unit referred to. To this day there has been a dearth of information concerning the State's responsibility regarding assessment or analysis of the carer programme in place over the years of that institution's lifetime. Are there implications in that instance regarding the Commission to Inquire into Child Abuse Act and the two subsequent sections? I note that in the latter two cases, the Information Commissioner has agreed with the exclusion notations offered by the Department. What is the position with regard to section 28? I am not in a position to answer my own question. Are there downsides in terms of the example I have given? After all these months have passed, that poor woman is still trying to win redress for the terrible experiences she suffered as a child.

The Information Commissioner agreed that neither case should be included under the Freedom of Information Act. She states: "At the very least, I recommend that the prohibition could be time-modified to an extent that would, for example, allow archivists or historians of the future have access to such information." She is clearly of the opinion that the information should not be available now or in the near future and can only see it being released in ten or 20 years' time. A future Oireachtas review could reconsider the issue.

The case I cited involves historical events. I have found it a most vexatious experience that my efforts have not secured the full answers. I believe some evasion was employed with regard to exposing the truth, particularly during the early stages. Regardless of the current situation, which demonstrates an absence of heart on the part of the Department concerned, the information flow in the early stages was certainly very poor. The case dates back 30 or 40 years, with the consequence that the story of an unfortunate woman is not being heard; nor is there a prospect of its being heard. The historical argument alone is not enough. We are investigating the whole redress process, which is framed in a historical context.

We are only dealing with one narrow aspect of how records could be obtained. The Freedom of Information Act is not the mechanism for addressing the issues raised by the Deputy. There are countless other methods to do so. I seek agreement to exclude points two and three. People may, at a future date, investigate for historical purposes the implementation of the Residential Institutions Redress Act and the Commission to Inquire into Child Abuse Act, but, in the meantime, the Information Commissioner recommends that this information should not be brought under the Freedom of Information Act. Can we agree to that?

I want my reservations noted because I do not have sufficient information to make an informed judgment and have concerns about the issues I have already articulated.

The next matter pertains to the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment. The documents before members refer to nine Acts.

With regard to the bodies associated with the redress board, the exclusion of information is wrong. I agree with the Information Commissioner and would not like my opinion as a member of this committee to imply agreement with the Minister's response. Sensitive personal issues are concerned.

We have agreed on that. The Information Commissioner stated in her report that people have gone to the boards on a confidential basis and we all agree the system would not work if their testimony could be released under the Freedom of Information Act. She recommends that the exclusion from the Act should be time-modified to an extent that would allow access by archivists and historians.

I know that, but general issues arise in respect of the redress system. For example, due to the way in which the Department of Education and Science is interpreting the information, it will not be possible to ascertain the amounts awarded in cases of abuse by institutions or members of orders unless they have been the subject of court proceedings. It is not simply a question of individual privacy. It is known that in a number of institutions several people were involved in abuse. Under the Minister's interpretation, we will never know the extent of the awards to former residents of Letterfrack, Daingean and Artane.

I am trying to move on and ask members to understand the distinction I made. The Deputy is remarking on what she considers to be deficiencies in the legislation but we are only dealing with aspects pertaining to the Freedom of Information Act. There is nothing to prevent the Oireachtas from changing the legislation if it is not happy with the implementation of the legislation. There are other means of achieving the Deputy's objectives.

I do not totally share the Chairman's interpretation.

I am not asking the Deputy for agreement but that she should acknowledge my point.

I acknowledge the point but do not necessarily agree.

With regard to the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, should the records of the Labour Court be subject to the Freedom of Information Act? The Information Commissioner believes they should but the Department disagrees. The same question arises in respect of the Rights Commissioner and the Labour Relations Commission.

The three bodies referred to by the Chairman are in the Third Schedule and we are being asked to remove them from it. I do not have the opinion of the Information Commissioner to hand, so I ask the Chairman to outline her advice on the Industrial Relations Acts.

The Information Commissioner states:

. . .these Regulations provide that those LRC functions concerning the provision of services connected with trade disputes or to particular employers, trade unions, employer organisations, employees or their representatives and associated communications are excluded from the remit of the FOI Act. The Committee will note that this is a retrograde recommendation which would erode three existing FOI access points. I do not agree that this should ever be the case and I recommend that all three provisions should remain in the Third Schedule where the safeguards of the FOI Act can be applied.

I concur with her view.

Will we concur with the Information Commissioner that the first three proposals would reverse the current position and should not be accepted?

The next matter pertains to the Companies Act, prohibiting disclosure of information obtained under section 19 or 20, except in certain limited circumstances. The Information Commissioner states:

This provision, which exempts a number of circumstances from the prohibition on disclosure, states in its introduction that the provision is subservient to law. Section 17 provides that "Information obtained by virtue of the performance by the Director of any of his or her functions which has not otherwise come to the notice of the public, shall not be disclosed, except in accordance with law". Nevertheless, and for the removal of doubt, I recommend that the provision be added to the Third Schedule which will allow the application of the safeguards of the FOI Act.

With the Information Commissioner's view on that one included, it seems to be a relatively small point. We will agree her view on item 4. Item 5 relates to the Industrial Designs Act——

Would it not be the Law Enforcement Act?

If one agrees with item 4, one agrees with item 5. They are the same.

Item 5 is the same, so we will agree with the Information Commissioner on that. Item 6 is the Industrial Designs Act and provides that a proprietor of a design may defer publication of that design for 13 months. The following is the Information Commissioner's response to the Minister:

The overall purpose is to protect the confidentiality of commercially sensitive information. Generally, I do not favour duplication of effort and I would regard [this section] as providing very adequate safeguards in this particular area.

She is saying that she is happy with the FOI Act to protect commercial sensitivity.

We have pretty much done that on agriculture.

Yes, we have covered the principle and have agreed with her on that previously. Item 7 is the Competition Act 2002, which entitles a person injured by disclosure of information obtained by the Competition Authority pursuant to its powers to sue the person who made the disclosure. Again she says the protection under the FOI Act is adequate and makes the same point. We have previously accepted the principle of her argument. On item 8 we are agreeing with the Information Commissioner. Item 8 is the Companies (Auditing and Accounting) Act, which imposes a statutory duty of confidentiality on the director, management, staff and advisers of the supervisory authority and recognises the highly sensitive nature of the information the authority holds. Again, the Information Commissioner says she is concerned about the absolute nature of this provision, which is designed to support the auditing standards authority in being capable of offering a guarantee of confidentiality to complainants. Otherwise the view is that complainants will not come forward, despite the protection of the FOI Act. She is saying she is afraid complaints may not be made to the Irish Auditing and Accounting Supervisory Authority if people felt their details could be released under FOI. She is saying she believes she is able to adjudicate that under FOI and the Department should not have absolute power on it. We will agree with the Information Commissioner's view.

Item 9 is the Personal Injuries Assessment Board Act, which prohibits the disclosure of information obtained by a member of the board, staff, committee, adviser or consultant. Members of a board and staff already have an obligation not to disclose information by virtue of the legislation that refers to the Personal Injuries Assessment Board. Her view is that it should be FOI-accessible and she can assess that. In that department we generally agree with her.

The Radiological Protection Act 1991 has a provision that, with certain stated exceptions, prohibits the disclosure of information. The Department of Environment, Heritage and Local Government wants to exclude it but the Information Commissioner disagrees. The Minister's response is to include section 36(1)(d) and exclude section 36(1)(a) to (c). I am generally reading from the Information Commissioner’s response to the Minister’s document but I will refer to the Minister’s response because the Information Commissioner did not refer to it on that occasion. We are dealing with section 36 of the Radiological Protection Act. I will defer consideration of it, as I cannot put my hand on it. We might defer three or four items to the end of the meeting when I can put my hand more exactly on the Minister’s response.

We will move on to section 14 of the Electoral Act, which proposes preventing information on proposals for a constituency revision or any other information on the business of the commission being made public without the permission of the commission. We will disagree with the Department on that. We have nothing to fear from the information on boundary commissions being made public. Is that agreed? Agreed. We are saying the Electoral Act should come under the FOI Act.

The next item is genetically modified organisms. The following is the Information Commissioner's response:

The "confidentiality" provisions . . . provide that notifiers of information may make a request to the Environmental Protection Agency, EPA, that certain information would be treated as confidential for purposes of article 7 . . . of the European Communities Act 1972 (Access to Information on the Environment) Regulations, 1998. Any such request must be accompanied by verifiable justification. Given that the two non-disclosure provisions of the European Communities Act 1972 (Access to Information on the Environment) Regulations 1998 contain qualifying conditions which closely resemble a number of the stated exemptions of the FOI Act, it is arguable whether either "confidentiality" provision could, or should, be described as a non-disclosure provision . . . Effectively, these provisions are the conduit for the delivery of the non-disclosure provisions of the European Communities Act 1972 (Access to Information on the Environment) Regulations 1998 . . . I also note the obligation on the EPA to consider the public interest in the decision-making process on whether or not to accede to any request for confidentiality. On balance, I believe these provisions should be subject to the oversight of the FOI Act.

So she says the interest of the public good should come into this as well as the commercial interest of those who provide information. Will we agree with her on that? Agreed.

The next item is genetically modified organisms and deliberate release regulations. The articles affect mandatory grounds. This is the same principle. We will accept the Information Commissioner's opinion. We will return to one item when I have more information.

The next item is the Department of Finance's Ethics in Public Office Act, section 35. This is a provision which, with certain stated exceptions, prohibits the disclosure of information. Those exceptions include disclosure pursuant to an order of a court and disclosure of information in the public interest by a Minister of the Government. They also include the level of disclosure of information contained in the statement of interest by a person to whom such a statement is provided, where that person considers a conflict may exist between an interest specified or an interest which has not been disclosed and the public interest. A further exemption relates to disclosure of information by a person, whether in the performance of his or her official functions or in the public interest. Such disclosure could be made to a Minister of a Government, a Secretary General of a Department, a committee of the Houses of the Oireachtas or to the Standards in Public Office Commission or a person or public body which is determined by the Minister for Finance to be the relevant authority for the occupiers of the designated positions of that body.

Finally, where a person has been the subject of an investigation under the ethics Acts and the ensuing report does not contain the determination that a contravention of the ethics Acts has occurred, which means it would not be laid before the Houses of the Oireachtas, the information contained in the report may be disclosed. Given the safeguards of the FOI Act and in light of the level of disclosure already provided for, my view is that it should be included in the Third Schedule.

I must excuse myself. This is a gruelling exercise.

It is, but sometimes committees have to work hard. We have got through at least half of them now.

On the health section, I believe that, without exception, the Information Commissioner's position should be supported.

Do members want to continue or to adjourn?

I should also have been in the Dáil for statements on the national wage agreement.

We have covered half of the Departments and it is heavy stuff. We have sided with the FOI Commissioner on all but a few points of difference. We will complete the report at the next meeting. We know the procedure and will simply have to conclude our consideration of the points in front of us. We will adjourn until 12 July when we will conclude this issue. On 26 July we will meet with representatives of the Credit Union or the Bankers Federation, subject to their availability.

When will we meet again?

On 12 July.

I thought it was on 19 July.

My apologies. It is 19 July.

The joint committee adjourned at 4.05 p.m. until 3 p.m. on 19 July 2006.
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