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JOINT COMMITTEE ON FINANCE AND THE PUBLIC SERVICE debate -
Wednesday, 26 Jul 2006

Mortgage Products: Presentation.

The next item on the agenda is a discussion with the Irish Bankers Federation on mortgage account switching procedures. We are joined by Mr. Pat Farrell, chief executive of the Irish Bankers' Federation, and members of his staff. On behalf of the committee, I welcome them and thank them for attending today's meeting.

Before the discussion begins, I should advise that while the comments of members are protected by parliamentary privilege, those of visitors are not so protected. I would remind the committee that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the committees or the Houses.

I understand that the presentation from the Irish Bankers Federation is available on screen in front of us. I think it is the first such presentation to this committee. I thank our visitors for arranging that with the committee secretariat. Mr. Farrell will now commence his presentation.

Mr. Pat Farrell

Following this short presentation, I will be happy to take questions. The Irish Bankers Federation is the representative body for the banking and financial services sector in Ireland. We represent 63 member banks. Thirteen of these are in the retail business and the rest are in the international financial services business, located principally in the centre on the north Dublin docks and also across the country. The Irish Bankers Federation is affiliated to two federations: the Federation of International Banks which is the umbrella body for the international banks and the Mortgage Council which represents the mortgage lenders, which would include building societies and banks.

The following gives a flavour of the economic contribution of the financial services and banking industry. There are over 55,000 employed directly in financial services, principally in banking. The vast majority of those are in retail financial services. There are 19,000 working in the international financial services sector, which is one of the fastest growing employment sectors in the economy. The financial services sector spends approximately €4.5 billion on wages, services and projects and pays over €1.5 billion in taxes, including PAYE and PRSI. The sector accounted for 6% of GNP in 2004.

Ireland has been hugely successful in development of international financial services. We are now the fourth largest exporter in the services sector. In fact, in 2004 the IFSC exported a total of €14.6 billion, which was over one third of the entire services exports by value.

Some may have the impression, as they look down onto the north docks and, indeed, increasingly onto the south docks, that employment in international financial services is confined to that particular area but in fact it has a country-wide base. A slide in the presentation shows that almost all of the country is covered. The members will be familiar with some of the entities. In Kildare, for example, State Street has recently established a facility. There are also branch banks. In south Leitrim and Roscommon approximately 1,400 are employed through MBNA and branch banks. In Limerick, over 1,000 are employed through organisations like GE Capital, Halifax and branch banks. In Cork, over 3,000 are employed in financial institutions. In Westmeath, Deputy Paul McGrath's constituency, there is branch banking, GMAC with which he would be familiar and also a number of other entities. In Dublin, Bank of Ireland has a large operation centre in the Cabinteely-Dún Laoghaire area. In Carlow-Kilkenny, almost 1,000 are employed between State Street, a Bank of Ireland operation centre and branch banking. Financial services are very much spread across the country, and this is becoming increasingly the case. I am originally from the Carrick-on-Shannon area and the entire north Shannon region has received a significant boast from MBNA being located in that area and drawing a workforce from a wide hinterland.

The market has been transformed over the past number of years. Over a period the number of credit card providers has increased from eight to 12, one of those being MBNA. The number of personal loan providers has also increased quite significantly and the number of mortgage providers has increased significantly as well. The number of current account providers have increased, but there has also been consolidation which evened the effect, for example, TSB and Irish Permanent merged to create one provider as such, Permanent TSB.

The 8,000 providers across the EU mentioned in the presentation refers to the advent of the single European payments area project, which is being rolled out by the banking sector and will result in a standardised payments process from 2008. Although it will obviously take time for the market to develop, theoretically it will allow all banking providers to offer directly payment services across the EU to all citizens. That is part of the evolution of the Single Market. Commissioner McCreevy is very involved in that in his role as Commissioner for Internal Market and Services.

The next slide visualises developments since 1998, when MBNA entered the credit card market. Since then, there has been a considerable number of new entrants, mainly foreign players, into the market. As recently as this year, as the committee will be aware, Fortis Banque was successful in partnering An Post in a potential banking alliance which, according to the chief executive of An Post, will launch a suite of personal banking products into the market in 2007. An Post has an extensive network across the country and already provides services in an alliance with one of the other main banks. All of those providers who have come into the market are involved, not in one area only but in credit cards, business banking, personal loans, mortgages, etc.

Even the newspaper headlines tell their own story. Over the period there has been much increased competition, particularly in the current account market. There has obviously been increased competition in the mortgage market. That is manifested in the headlines included in the slide presentation.

In overview, there are 14 mortgage lenders. They are Irish, UK, Danish, Dutch and Belgian owned lenders operating in the Irish mortgage market. The number of foreign players shows the international aspect of the business.

There is significant innovation in the market. The choice of products includes different interest rate types — fixed, variable and, more recently, tracker products which track the ECB base rate — and a considerable range of features — discounts, payment breaks, current account mortgages and cheque book mortgages. This innovation is a response to Ireland's dynamic mortgage market which has been driven by the considerable increases in the provision of housing over the past number of years and by the growing population.

There is a diverse customer base. While one hears a great deal about the first-time buyers who obviously form an important segment and are the ones fighting hardest to get onto the property ladder, the customer base is not comprised solely of first-time buyers. There are also movers who are trading up and sometimes trading down, investors purchasing property for rental, those switching mortgage provider and those who top-up their mortgages to finance a variety of purposes such as holidays or car purchase.

The total value of residential property stock in Ireland is €600 billion, according to the Central Bank. One hears a great deal about the amount of residential mortgage debt outstanding but the total amount of residential mortgage debt outstanding is €98 billion. While there is quite a large mortgage book which has grown considerably over the years with the growth in the economy and the demographics, it represents approximately 20% of the value of the residential property.

A slide in the presentation shows residential mortgage debt measured as a percentage of GDP in the form of a map of Europe supplied by our colleagues in the European Mortgage Federation. Ireland, which is in the range 50%-70% of mortgage debt to GDP, is not by any manner of means on the upper quartile of the scale in terms of the level of mortgage debt to GDP and is more in the middle. We have moved significantly forward over the past number of years, given that the housing stock has required substantial improvement and demographics resulted in a significant pent-up demand for housing.

The mortgage market competitiveness is referenced, not just by the statistics in the presentation but, indeed, by regulators and others. We are very competitive. In order that there is no confusion, the slide in the presentation shows clearly the current ECB base rate. The other rates shown are those as referenced in December 2005. It is useful to show the current ECB base rate, which is 2.75%. The committee will see that Ireland is quite competitive on the costs of providing a housing loan, and is marginally ahead of Spain and Finland in that regard.

Owner occupation rates may be of interest to committee members who have probably heard over the years that Ireland has one of the highest, if not the highest, home ownership rates in Europe. We have lost that mantle now. The slide shows we have been displaced by the former eastern European countries that are now part of the larger European Union. Most of the housing stock there would, previously, have been owned by the state, but as these countries have moved into the market economy, the properties have transferred into mainly private ownership. Those countries now have higher levels of home ownership than we have, but we are still well above the EU average.

With regard to what drives the mortgage market, on the demographic side we still have significant inward migration. Some people would have predicted the recent CSO figures which show a huge increase in population — a young population which wants to acquire homes. We also have more people per house than the European average. There is still quite a significant unfulfilled demand for housing and it is unlikely the demand will level off soon. There is a strong supply of housing to match the demand, but the demand is stronger than supply, particularly in Dublin. There has been some disruption in supply on the south side of Dublin over recent years on the planning side, which means it will take some time for supply there to catch up with demand. In other parts of the country there may be an excess, but in the round we are close to reaching equilibrium.

On the number of housing completions per 1,000 population, as can be seen from the slide, Ireland leads the pack. Spain is just behind Ireland in this regard and some people have said that Ireland has something to do with the Spanish rate also as many Irish people have bought homes in Spain. I am not sure whether anyone can verify this.

In terms of future development of the mortgage market, as part of the single market Commissioner McCreevy is promoting measures to try to promote integration measures within mortgage markets across Europe. This process is under way. By 2010 therefore, we could have a scenario where, through branches, brokers and the web, many companies will provide mortgage finance in Ireland. Some of these company names will be recognisable but some will be part of a mixture of European providers that are not currently in this market.

We estimate that approximately 10% of new lending relates to mortgages switched from other lenders. The lifespan of a mortgage is approximately six years. In other words, about every six years people revisit their mortgage and may remortgage or switch provider. This is what I mean when I say the lifespan of a mortgage is six years. Every six years people have occasion to think again about their mortgage and they either go to a new lender or renegotiate their mortgage for a higher amount. They may also decide to switch from a fixed rate to a variable rate or move to a tracker mortgage. Evolution in the market follows the trend that when first-time buyers become established, they move on and take a product that finances more of their lending requirements. Later still, they may move to a tracker mortgage. Many competitive initiatives by individual lenders encourage switching, for example, the offer to pay the legal costs of switching. I am sure members are familiar with the offers available in the market.

The current legislative structure does not allow one lender to transfer security to another and I will return to this issue with another slide.

I will describe briefly the mortgage switching process which is quite complex. Before members rush to any conclusions, it is not complex because the lending institutions make it so. A number of players are involved in the process, including the Government and the legal profession because of the matters of title and stamp duty. Typically what happens is that if people decide to switch mortgages, they apply to a new lender and get an offer. They then get a solicitor to redeem their mortgage and create a new one. The solicitor must contact the lender to request the title deeds which are security for the property and examine them to ensure they are good and marketable and have them stamped for the new mortgage. Then the solicitor goes to the new lender and requests a redemption figure — the amount of money required to redeem the old mortgage. Providing all conditions are met, this is drawn down and the solicitor redeems the loan with the old lender who vacates the mortgage and sends it to the solicitor to be charged and registered at the Land Registry where it is completed. It is quite a long process and I will explain how it might change in a few minutes.

It is difficult to give the exact cost of switching a mortgage because it can vary and depends on who people go to for the service. Let us take an example of a mortgage in the €250,000 to €300,000 range. The cost of switching could be approximately €1,300. The State takes approximately 50% of that for the stampings and duties associated with the deeds, the legal people take a slice for their part in the legal transaction, the valuer takes €100 to €200 for doing the valuation on the property being mortgaged and the lender takes from €50 to €100, in some cases not even that, as a vacate fee or administrative fee for conducting the transaction. The majority of the cost of switching the mortgage is, therefore, attributable to legal or stamp duties. Most lenders, in order to get people to switch, now offer to pay most of those costs as part of the switching process.

With regard to how we can improve this process, we could take a number of approaches that would facilitate easier switching than we have currently. First, we could change the legislative structure, but that is probably not the best route to take because, as members well know, legislative time is hugely constrained. Also, changing the legislative structure would be complex and raise all kinds of issues of ownership rights and would be difficult to deliver in the medium to longer term. I do not intend to dwell on this approach, but would be happy to elaborate if anybody wants me to later.

The easier and more straightforward way to create efficiency in the process is to do something which could be done in the medium term and which would have tangible benefits. There is a road map for this prepared by the Law Reform Commission. It published a report in April this year that laid out a clear road map for what we call e-conveyancing, as shown on the next slide. This involves transferring all the manual, paper-based system — explained on the chart I just showed which mentioned solicitors, values, Government, etc. — to an electronic platform which connects all the players so that the whole process can be transacted and executed electronically. This would cut down on time and costs and streamline the process significantly.

This is not a theoretical concept as it has been achieved in other jurisdictions. I refer members to the Law Reform Commission report which gives the example of the State of Ontario. It set up a quasi-commercial semi-state agency to run the operation and it charges a modest fee to the players to conduct the process on their behalf. This has speeded up the conveyancing process significantly and could be done here also. The Law Reform Commission retained a consultancy firm, BearingPoint, to map the process of migrating from the current manually based unwieldy system to a more streamlined electronic system.

We can play a part in one particular element of this process, namely the standardisation of mortgage deeds. Currently, each lender has its own mortgage deed. In order to make the electronic process work, all lenders would have to agree to have a standardised deed that could be moved easily from one lender to another. We are already working on that and have retained a legal firm to help us deliver it. We plan to have it delivered by the end of the year and that all lender members of the federation, which covers 100% of the market, will have a standardised mortgage deal. This will leave us set up to plug our piece into the e-conveyancing product when it happens.

I will refer briefly to current accounts which are part of the switching process. The cost of current accounts in the mortgage market is very competitive by international standards. This is referenced by CapGemini which did a world report on this issue in 2005. On the typical products in a current account — the regulator made reference to this recently — the cost is €59 and we are only superseded by China and the Netherlands. In relative GDP terms, China is in fact more costly than Ireland while the Netherlands has a very electronically enabled system of current accounts which allows it to deliver even further efficiencies. This is the reason they would be more competitive in that space.

On the matter of personal account switching we developed a code in the past year with all the stakeholders. We consulted with the Consumers Association of Ireland and with our own members and the regulator held a watching brief. I am happy to say that in the first year since the code has been introduced, 24,000 customers have switched under the code. A survey undertaken with TNS-MRBI showed that 5% of current account holders have switched in the past year. This is a reflection of the growing competition in the market place.

The trend has ebbed and flowed during the year. My explanation for the peaks and troughs is that new players have brought new offers into the market — I will not name individual members — such as those who have introduced free banking offers into the market at various times during the year. The visual presentation shows where the level of activity has increased at the time the marketing activities for those products were launched into the market. The code and the availability of free banking is a development that allows and makes it easier for people to switch between banks.

We have a similar initiative for business accounts which was launched in April and is in place since the beginning of June. This covers all current accounts and demand deposit accounts held by business customers and has been fully operational since the end of June. We engaged the stakeholders regarding this development, including the SFA and ISME.

Our vision is to create a dynamic and stable financial services industry in Ireland that will contribute both to the economic and social well-being of the country. We are very committed to this vision and to working constructively with all the stakeholders. We have introduced a switching code for personal business customers and we are committed to enhancing and improving it. We are developing a standardised mortgage deed which is referenced to the home mortgage switching process. We are strongly supportive of the promotion of e-conveyancing. I emphasise again that the financial services sector and banking in particular is a significant contributor to Ireland Inc. The international financial services side as I have mentioned, is a major contributor to the Exchequer and to job creation. I hope I have demonstrated the increasing choice and competition in the domestic banking sector.

I welcome Mr. Farrell and his colleagues to surroundings that are not unfamiliar to them. Recent reports stated that the Irish banking sector has been identified as one of the most profitable banking sectors in Europe. This sends out a signal to the general public to question whether they are being ripped off. When the spotlightwas put on banks a number of years ago as a result of the interest charges on credit cards, the banks very quickly looked at their own profitability in this sector and there was a move to cut interest rates on bank charges. There is a perception that a cartel exists among the large players in banking but this is denied by the banks. However, it seems strange there is such a profitable banking sector which is being fed off the customer base. One figure given in the presentation was the 25,000 ditch and switch transactions. This seems to be a very small number of customers who have decided to switch banks. I do not know if they are being encouraged.

Anecdotal evidence relating to the area of mortgage changes would seem to suggest that in relative terms there are very few householders who tend to change mortgage from one financial institution to another. I ask the delegation to elaborate as to the reasons for this. I was particularly interested in Mr. Farrell's concept of the use of e-conveyancing. This would be a significant step forward because as public representatives we are aware of many problems suffered by constituents who are encountering incredible delays in drawing down mortgages because of legal difficulties and difficulties with the Land Registry. Will the delegation comment on the public perception that the Irish banking sector is hugely profitable and that it is making these profits on the backs of its individual customers? I am excluding those in the international finances services sector because they do not have a retail base. I refer to the commercial banks.

I too welcome Mr. Farrell and his staff. I am pleased to see him back in Leinster House. I am sure he enjoyed the earlier session as it must have reminded him of old times.

They say the Deputy was the star.

I welcome the presentation made by Mr. Farrell which was very good and which was an eye-opener for me in terms of activity in the sector. I am fascinated by the concept of the international market and Ireland being a major exporter. I would welcome an elaboration by Mr. Farrell on this point. What are we exporting, how are we exporting it and what is the net effect? Are we simply processing and passing on money and data such as the company in the midlands to which Mr. Farrell referred? Is this the concept of export?

What is the benefit to the Irish economy, besides the number of jobs which Mr. Farrell stated was 17,000? Has it another value besides job creation? If this is the case, what will be the long-term effect? We are becoming more international, more global and more electronic and the cost of employment in Ireland is higher than in other countries. It is no secret that India is a major threat to employment in the data processing business in Ireland. A graduate in India can be employed for €2,500 per annum and a graduate with a master's degree for €3,500 per annum. How does the delegation view this threat to the 17,000 jobs in Ireland? The number of jobs in manufacture has already decreased.

The subject of this meeting is the question of bank account and mortgage switching. I have been made an offer to switch but as yet I have not done so, even though I might. Some people who have switched have had bad experiences and have been left with a sour taste in the mouth. When they switched they were suddenly in trouble with institutions such as the ESB or others where they had a standing order arrangement. It is real headache to tie up all the odds and ends. Is it the case that a number of the federation's more traditional members are making it difficult for people to switch? What input has the federation in terms of streamlining the process?

Mr. Farrell referred to services for elderly customers. I refer to a case about which I was quite disgusted. At least one of the federation's members offers free banking to the over 60s. However they do not actively promote it to the over 60s and some people find they have gone over the age of 60 and are still paying their bank charges. When this was queried the bank said it was not its responsibility but rather the customer's responsibility to inform the bank. There should be a kick-in mechanism in place.

A date of birth is required in many dealings with a bank and the bank should be able to use this information to ensure free banking is implemented. In situations where the banks have not given the free banking to those people, will the bankers' federation push for a refund of the charges made that should not have been made? Refunds within the banking sector is not a popular concept at the moment but it should be done in this case.

I would like to hear the comments of witnesses on the question of equity release by elderly persons who can obtain a mortgage on a home without having to make any payments. I met someone who needed to take this course of action but was left with a very sour taste. The local bank, of which this person had been a lifelong customer, wanted 8% per annum on the amount of money it advanced, which would double every ten years or less, presumably. If a person took out €100,000 now, his or her net liability would be €200,000 in under ten years. The bank was not prepared to accept an interest only payment. It was a take it or leave it deal. Is the Irish Bankers Federation aware of moves within it to encourage competitiveness in the sector to drive down costs? There does not appear to be a great deal of competitiveness.

I welcome Mr. Pat Farrell and his staff to the meeting. Financial services are significant players and employers in Ireland engaging an impressive workforce of 55,000 who contribute enormously to the Exchequer. It might not be widely known that the sector pays out €4.4 billion in wages. We are very fortunate in my constituency to be the site of an MBNA operation and have over 1,400 people working in the financial services sector. Those workers contribute significantly to the regional economy, which fact is well known in Longford, Leitrim and Westmeath. Not everyone lives where they work and we see people travelling 20 or 30 miles to their places of work.

Mr. Farrell made statements which were astonishing in some respects and provide an element of balance in the debate on the level of mortgage debt in Ireland. Mr. Farrell's statement is the first reasonable breakdown I have heard. While the value of residential holdings in Ireland is over €600 billion, the level of mortgage debt is €98 billion. However, according to the broadsheets and certain commentators in recent times, we are in serious debt. Is mortgage debt a significant portion of the debt about which these economic commentators write? As CEO of the Irish Bankers Federation, perhaps Mr. Farrell can set out the figures on other forms of loan debt. If he does not have the information now, it would be appreciated if it were conveyed to the committee later. It is information we would like to have.

Mr. Farrell referred to An Post and new products. It is not often we hear good news about An Post. Over the years, reports and debates on An Post, the closing of post offices and failures to pay staff have become increasingly negative. Can Mr. Farrell outline what the new circumstances are, name An Post's business partner and set out the new products we can expect to see?

It is obvious from Mr. Farrell's submission that the construction industry is a significant part of the economy, having built 81,000 homes in 2005. Mr. Farrell is before the committee to discuss the switching of mortgages, in which only 10% of customers are engaged. It is a small percentage. In most cases, people switch their mortgages within institutions. People get used to dealing with an institution. Most of us opened bank accounts in college many years ago and continue to hold accounts with the same banks.

It is now the case that tens of thousands of Irish people purchase residential property in Europe, America and the Caribbean. Does this practice have the potential to impact negatively on the country in future? Does Mr. Farrell perceive underlying dangers in the purchase of so much property abroad? Not a week passes without the placing of advertisements in multiple locations nationally displaying properties for sale abroad. These advertisements would not be placed if purchases were not being made. While I do not have figures on the numbers of properties which have been purchased, it appears to be a substantial phenomenon. I would like to hear Mr. Farrell's comments.

It would be useful to obtain a copy of Mr. Farrell's presentation, even by electronic means.

Mandatory registration is required in only three counties, though three more have been designated. It took 30 years to get the first three up and running. Clearly, mandatory registration will be a critical component of e-conveyancing as it not possible to carry it out if the necessary material is unavailable online. Does Mr. Farrell have a comment on that? I hope the system can be put in place but imagine it is a very significant job.

In most counties, especially in rapidly developing areas where a significant number of mortgages are being obtained, one in five units are required to be provided as affordable housing on the basis of Part V provisions. While they have been very slow to come through, such housing units are beginning to appear. As it is often possible for couples to manage a mortgage, single people make up the bulk of those applying for affordable housing. Couples apply where there is a low income. Only two lending institutions — the EBS and Bank of Ireland — offer mortgages to people availing of affordable housing, as there is a clawback. Clearly, there will be switching between local authorities and the banks. There is already a precedent for this with Housing Finance Agency, HFA, loans, etc. What is the view of the Irish Bankers Federation on this matter? If banks will not offer loans in the first place, it is difficult to see how it can happen in an organised way, although people have demonstrated an ability to pay back a mortgage and may want to extend a house, for example. It is disappointing that only two lending institutions offer products to such persons. This will be a significant component of the housing market and it must be properly catered for.

It has been stated the sum of €98 billion is outstanding. This accounts for about 20% of the overall stock of property. I presume it is confined to a particular age group — the most productive one. If there is a financial blip, it will become a serious problem because of the age profile of the people concerned. They are the ones who are working and the debt is not well spread. I would appreciate a comment on this issue. In addition, to assist their children, parents are extending mortgages beyond their working lives. Do members of the delegation have particular concerns about these matters? It is entirely different if a person who has a lump sum seeks a mortgage to buy a property as an investment. I refer to a more vulnerable group.

In the census report issued last week, the CSO identified a significant, albeit alarming, number with second homes. Does the delegation have figures in that regard? There is unoccupied housing stock and they cannot all be holiday homes. I find this information worrying.

It used to be the case that one went to one doctor, one dentist and one bank. It was important for them to know one's record or one might be in trouble. The ability to switch accounts is important in the sense that it has changed the culture in some banks which were among the more dominant in the market which were reluctant, for example, to consider the introduction of free banking. People now have a choice, which is probably due to competition more than anything else. It has been a positive move for customers.

I welcome Mr. Farrell from the Irish Bankers Federation. We have come a long way since he first appeared before the committee in terms of switching and the various changes that have been made to make the face of banking more acceptable to the public. I was unhappy with the switching of mortgages but a fair explanation has been given in terms of conveyancing and the various problems that arise. I suggested we discuss the matter face to face and Mr. Farrell has answered in an acceptable manner.

How has the issue of switching progressed for business people involved in small and medium enterprises? Has switching been extended across the board? Has it been successful in that regard?

Interest-only mortgages for 30 or 40 years have given rise to much controversy. It appears the stress test applied by banks is not sufficient to safeguard the interests of individuals taking out loans, as the security offered may not be adequate to meet the borrowings if a recession were to hit the housing market.

What is Mr. Farrell's view on endowment mortgages? Are they still worthwhile, or do they have any role to play? Many have had great difficulty with them.

Deputy Catherine Murphy referred to the issue of free banking. There is no such thing. As I understand it, there is always a clause, as the system has to be paid for. No one owes anybody a free lunch. I wish they did. We did not have one today.

We must be fair to the banking sector on the issue of profitability. The profits made by banks are only enough to capitalise lending in the following year. People should be educated about banking and other businesses. Banks, especially the three major banking groups, receive an unfair amount of bad publicity but when one examines their balance sheets and sees the cost of forthcoming operations, it is evident that their profits are not sufficient to capitalise them. I ask Mr. Farrell to elaborate on this.

To my surprise, I found a letter from the Bank of Scotland among my correspondence. As usual, Mr. Mark Duffy was whingeing. He is never satisfied. He is not yet involved in the retail market but he referred to switching. Although I am not familiar with all the details, he complained that banks were closing accounts in their entirety in the United Kingdom. Members may not have received the letter but I will make copies available. We should take into account the danger presented by money laundering in leaving small amounts of money in an account. When an account is switched from one bank to another, it should be closed in its entirety with the agreement of the client. This would be a safeguard on the part of the banks. I would regard this as good business practice.

Mr. Duffy also claimed that the Bank of Scotland was concerned that not all institutions were actively and genuinely promoting the code. While certain institutions are promoting switching packs and advertising widely, others are not promoting the code. This means the customers of large institutions may not be aware of the code and that, in some instances, staff at counters have received little or no training and are unaware of the operation of the code. Mr. Duffy stated recent feedback from the Financial Regulator added weight to his concerns in this regard. I suggest we invite representatives of the Bank of Scotland to come before the committee to explain this letter. As yet, Mr. Duffy does not have a retail branch network, yet he appears to know what is happening, without giving examples. He also claimed that the Bank of Scotland was bigger than the Bank of Ireland, AIB and the Permanent TSB together. I do not understand what he is whingeing and screaming about. He appears to be trying to undermine the banking sector. A letter such as the one I received from him does not add credibility to the system.

I join colleagues in welcoming Mr. Farrell and his colleagues. I took some notes during his presentation. Will he draw an additional picture for us in regard to the impact post-2008? The Irish Bankers Federation stated there were 14 mortgage providers. Does it represent all of them, or are they all affiliates? What percentage of the demand for mortgages is met by local authorities? While local authorities are not competing with the lending institutions as they operate on a different basis, they are meeting a significant percentage of mortgage requirements. Does Mr. Farrell know the extent of that commitment? It would be wrong not to raise that in today's debate.

Since when has 10% of new lending related to switched mortgages? I expect that is a recent development. The reference to the six-year life of the mortgage makes me nervous because if it is an average it shows this is a profitable business for financial institutions. Switching is all very well but people need to think carefully before committing to switching or consolidating their original mortgages with home improvement requirements. In the early years the greatest part of one's payment is interest assessed over the duration of the mortgage agreement with the result that the capital remains significant up to halfway through the mortgage period. Only after that does the initial sum borrowed begin to tumble appreciably. Is six years' life of mortgage the average? Does Mr. Farrell agree with my view that such an early life-span change by borrowers is not in their interest? People pay significant sums in interest.

I am not convinced that financial institutions are enthusiastic about switching. While in previous meetings we have mentioned cartels and so on, most players, even those mentioned by the errant Deputy, are nervous about rocking the boat. They work by gentle nudging and do not want to create a reaction. I see no evidence of proactivity on the part of any of the 14 players in this area. It is good that most people are nervous of switching.

One of the speakers said banks have an image problem. I do not believe that is the case. The customers have a problem because the banks are screwing them. Any defence of profits is well and good but even the most cursory examination such as ours, and our interim report, shows that ECB increases have not been passed on to savers, this is true, for example, of the most recent increase, mentioned in the presentation. There have been several increases up to 0.75 of a percentage point. Traditional customers have deposit on demand accounts but they have gained nothing from the ECB's decisions.

Mr. Farrell

I will start with the points raised by Deputy Nolan. The word "cartel" carries connotations of breach of competition laws and I utterly reject it. The Competition Authority and the European Commission investigated the banking sector here and found no evidence of collusion or cartel activity.

I said there was a perception.

Mr. Farrell

I accept that. The information about the profitability of Irish banks is not new. It has been known for some time that Irish banks are profitable by European standards. American banks are much more profitable. We have always acknowledged that openly. Irish banks need to maintain a high level of profitability to generate the capital required to fund a voracious appetite in this market in the private sector and among personal customers to develop business, or for personal use.

Approximately 1 million people have invested their pension provisions in private pension funds, large amounts of which are exposed to the performance and profitability of Irish banks because they represent a significant part of the capitalisation of the Irish stock market and equities. If Irish banks are not consistently and strongly profitable it has a negative impact on the pension provisions of many who depend on those funds for their retirement.

I contend that the profits are not made at the expense of the customer. I have shown comprehensively that across a variety of products, particularly the common or garden products with which many people are concerned, Irish banking provides an increasingly competitive proposition. I invite anyone to challenge that statement. That has been validated by the ECB by the regulator, central banks and consultants appointed by the European Commission.

Irish banks have the lowest cost-income ratios in Europe. The profitability of Irish banks concerns volume and growth. They have been part of an economy which has been booming for the past ten years. The small and medium sized enterprise sector in this country is the most profitable in Europe but no one criticises it for that. I do not criticise it, I wish it luck.

The multinational companies here make large profits, in some cases their returns on assets are way ahead of banks but I hear no criticism of that and I would not criticise it. I do not understand why banks must be subject to sustained criticism because of their level of profitability which is a function of their exposure to the strongest growing economy in Europe, and of the fact that they have some of the lowest cost-income ratios in Europe, because they are efficient. Irish customers are not suffering as a result of the levels of profitability because the market is competitive with many players increasingly providing value for money through new products, new offers and new competitors.

I would like to return on another occasion to speak about the international financial services sector which I presume falls within the committee's brief. I cannot recall whether the committee has addressed international financial services, but it would do them justice. Let us assume there is a bank in the IFSC which originally had its headquarters in Germany but is now located in Dublin. It funds substantial infrastructural projects across the world, making loans available worth billions, with margins of ten or 20 basis points, at 0.1% or 0.2% over the ECB base rate. All of this global lending can be classified as exports. There is then the provision of services by numerous banks in the IFSC for their global parents, being billed to the latter, which also form part of our exports. One of our members at Citibank won the title of Irish exporter of the year. Financial services may appear intangible, but they are real exports.

We divide the components of international financial services into what we call back, middle and front office. Initially, when international financial services were developed here, it was a back-office processing and administration operation, but that has changed. The rationale on which international financial services started in Ireland was that which Deputy Paul McGrath is now projecting for India — a very low cost location. Ireland has now become a high cost location and must, therefore, move up the value chain, concentrating more on middle and front office facilities. There is still an opportunity to engage in a great many back office activities in regions where costs are much lower than around Dublin. Increasing numbers of middle and back office facilities are being established across the country in lower cost locations, with higher value work also beginning to be done in Ireland. The Deputy is right to raise the issue, since we must maintain our competitiveness and continue to support the industry. There is a strategic review of international financial services and we run the risk of losing out. With the right support and policy decisions, the industry can grow from its current base of around 17,000 employees to double this figure in the next five or ten years. If one projects the current growth rate, one sees that the number employed could easily double within five to seven years. However, that requires us to maintain the focus on competitiveness and costs.

The Deputy mentioned a bad experience of switching. All I can say is that our code was developed in consultation with Ms Etain Doyle, the former telecommunications regulator, whom we retain as an adviser and quality controller. The regulator had a significant input, as did consumer representative groups. We monitor the figures monthly and report them to the regulator who also monitors matters. The code is working well. We carried out a comprehensive review at the end of its first year, the findings of which were published in our flagship banking publication, a copy of which I believe we sent to every Deputy. A review of the code was laid out over two pages detailing where we had to improve it and where it was working well. One can bring a horse to water, but one cannot make it drink. In reality, people are sometimes happy with their banking relationship. Nirvana is not where everyone is switching mortgages and current accounts willy-nilly for the sake of it. All we can do is provide a set of conditions and make switching as easy and streamlined as possible. Thereafter, people must make their own decisions. The code has been very successful. There are similar codes in the Netherlands and the United Kingdom. Benchmarked against those countries, our percentage of switching is higher. This information was also published in the review sent to everyone here. People inevitably tend to maintain relationships with their providers but that is changing over time. By and large, however, people stay with the institution with which they first began a relationship.

Regarding banking for senior citizens, I do not want to go into detail on what each bank offers. I know that some have a package for senior citizens, although I am unsure of the basis and whether it is proactive. I would have thought that they would all be making such offers proactively, but as most now have a free banking offer, it has almost been superseded, in the sense that if all other customers can avail of a free banking product, they will move to avail of it if they so wish. I will certainly take up that point with the individual institutions.

On equity release, I advise people to shop around, since there are three or four providers in that market. If people are unhappy with the proposition the Deputy described, they should see who might be better. It is a small market that has not developed a great deal because there are barriers to availing of the product. For a start, relatives are involved who may have a stake in any inheritance. They may not be wildly excited at the idea of their parents availing of an equity release. Legal people are also involved in making the necessary arrangements. As a product, it has had very limited appeal, although it suits some who desire an income from a substantial property asset. Risks involved for the lender include deterioration of the asset because of a lack of maintenance. Therefore, its pricing will be different from that of a conventional mortgage. This is reflected in the risk involved. The product is not in great demand or being marketed aggressively. Initially there was one provider in the market, but now there are two or three. At this point, I do not see the market growing very fast, but in time there will be more providers, since ever more elderly people will seek to release income from substantial property assets to fund their retirement, supplement retirement income or make provision for health care. It is an unfolding story.

Deputy Catherine Murphy mentioned losing track of who had said what. However, I gave an example regarding the value of property — €600 billion. I readily accept that averages hide realities, since there is not a mortgage for every property, while there is a significant mortgage for others. Financial institutions are not in the business of lending money if they do not think it will be repaid. Therefore, they underwrite all their loans very carefully and stress-test them. In turn, the Central Bank regularly reviews all the banks' loan books to ensure they are underwriting and making provision adequately. All indicators for provision against bad debts, arrears and so on are very strong. There are no signs of negativity in that respect.

Regarding those who get into problems with repayments, we have a code on mortgage arrears that we agreed and developed with all our lenders and to which they all adhere. If anyone has an issue, the first thing he or she should do is contact his or her lender, since it will always want to hear about it early and be anxious to reach an accommodation allowing him or her to get back onto an even keel and make some repayment. It is not in the interests of the lender or the customer to allow a loan to go bad or people to get into a situation from which they cannot extricate themselves.

An Post was mentioned, but I cannot elaborate, since it is not a member of the IBF. I am aware from the public domain that An Post has signed up to a strategic alliance or struck a deal with Fortis Bank, a major Belgian bank and a big global player with a track record of forming alliances with post offices to develop banking services. I have also heard the outgoing chief executive of An Post say it intended to be in the market with a suite of banking products in the first half of 2007.

I have dealt with the issue of switching. I have no figures for how many are buying property abroad, although I estimate that their numbers are high. Perhaps my colleagues might have more information on this.

Deputy Catherine Murphy raised the issue of e-conveyancing.

We certainly agree with Mr. Farrell on the need to move towards mandatory registration across the board to achieve the objective of e-conveyancing. We have a very constructive relationship with the Land Registry which is up to date and discussing many of the developments it is taking on board. It is a significant task for it to get up to speed in meeting the e-conveyancing challenge, but it seems to be facing in the right direction. That is all I have to say for now.

Mr. Farrell

I believe if the commitment is in place to mobilise this project there could be significant benefits. The roadmap is in place. The Law Reform Commission produced an excellent report. It retained a good team of consultants to map out this process and to show how it would be mobilised. The report was launched in April and is currently with Government. If it were mobilised it could deliver significant benefits for everybody concerned in the process. I do not have a figure for how many people have second homes, but I would say the number is significant.

As regards switching for business, this was only launched at the end of June. The numbers would be small because the percentage of businesses relative to personal customers is only small. I believe this will pick up over time, however. We had the same experience with the personal switching code.

As regards interest only and endowment mortgages, I do not see the latter having the attraction they had in the past. Endowment mortgages were largely driven by a headline tax rate of 70p in the pound, and they were seen as a tax-efficient product. Those type of conditions no longer exist. As regards interest-only mortgages, I come back to the point I made that ultimately whether it is interest-only repayment or repayment with capital, the banks will still assess the income of the person concerned and his or her ability to repay. They will also stress test at 2% above the prevailing interest rate so that it may be confirmed whether a person can repay at this level above the current rate of interest. All lenders apply that test.

There is a good deal of hype about this, the heat being generated and so on. There was a headline in the past few days to the effect that four out of every six mortgages are 100%. The regulator confirmed yesterday that 6% of mortgages are 100%, only a fraction of the mortgage market.

That would not be new mortgages.

Mr. Farrell

No, these are recent mortgages. On the point the Deputy made in this regard, this figure is quite contemporary, accounting for the current switching position. Obviously that would have been very low in the past. People took out a mortgage and religiously paid it back over 20 years. They had a sense of freedom on the day they paid the last payment and probably never switched. However, the market has changed, people have become more mobile and are moving houses and to new geographical locations. They are upgrading houses and this is what has driven the activity as regards the current levels of switching.

Another item the Deputy raised was about the consolidation of loans. That has become a popular product also because the cost of mortgage finance has been relatively attractive. However, all lenders will generally advise people to try to match the asset to the life of the loan. In general it is not a good idea to take an asset with a life of four or five years and to try to finance that over a 20 or 30 year period. That is the type of advice I would give to people. Nevertheless, people may, depending on their circumstances, wish to consolidate particular loans.

Switching generally is proactive. There is fierce competition, but let us not forget that the bigger banks have the right to try to win back customers as well. They have the right to try to increase their customer base. It is not as is if they should go out with their hands up and surrender their customer base to the competition. I do not expect they would. It is competitive and the banks are fighting for every customer they can get. The reality is we have advertised this code on numerous occasions. We will continue to advertise it and to publish the figures on it, thanks to our media colleagues who have highlighted it consistently. That, along with the advertising by the banks, has meant there has been continuing high visibility in the past 12 months. New competitors coming into the market will also promote this. I believe over time the trend will be upwards. The regulator has asked us again, recently, that we bring the availability of the code to the attention of all frontline staff. Every bank's website shows people how to switch. We said we would do that, and we have.

The Bank of Scotland was directly involved in the development of our code even though it is not in the current account market as yet. Again, we would welcome the bank's arrival and look forward to the day when it does have an offer in the current account market, because that again will provide more choice and more competition.

On the passing on of ECB rates, a myth has gained ground to the effect that these are the trigger for all rate movements. There is plenty of competition in the market at times when ECB rates do not move. We have entrants to the market on the savings side who come in outside of ECB rate cycles. In general the interest margin in Irish banks — the spread between their deposit base and mortgage base — is being driven down relentlessly. Shareprice analyst reports on the profitability of banks in this market show the margins are constantly being driven down because of competition. That is the reality. It may be that one rate is higher or lower than another but in the round the margins are being squeezed on both the deposit and the lending sides.

I am not sure at this stage whether I have covered every question. If I have not, I am happy to come back.

Will Mr. Farrell comment on Part V and the clawback?

Mr. Farrell

The Deputy is right, there are two lenders in the market at present. I cannot say there will be more, though I suspect that over time there will be. Ultimately, it is a commercial decision as regards whether people enter the market. However, without naming them, the two lenders involved are really big players in the market. Over time, I believe we will see more financial institutions coming into that market.

Many institutions have shown interest in the whole area, the product and so forth. As the Deputy rightly pointed out, the clawback is a technical issue which causes more difficulties. There is probably greater capacity again to streamline that because at present documentation varies across each of the local authorities. This means a lender has to have some 32 sets of agreements with the different local authorities to progress this. There are obstacles which need to be ironed out to facilitate the entry of more lenders into that market.

I have two quick points on local authorities. Mr. Farrell may not have the information as regards local authority mortgages and their role in house purchase provision. The second point is an open question as regards the post-2008 situation and EU developments.

Mr. Farrell

I do not know how significant local authorities are in the market. They were significant players a number of years ago, but they withdrew from the market. At the time they were relatively expensive. Their interest rates were headline in terms of cost. I am not sure to what they extent they are currently players in the finance market.

They hardly ever arise in discussions with the various authorities, the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government or whatever. Even when one talks about Part V housing, it seems to be very much the intent of the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government in that context to shift the financing towards the private sector and away from the local authority sector. I do not have data, but this certainly does not crop up much on our radar.

The traditional practice, of course, was that they could offer terms of up to 30 years, which was not the practice within the commercial institutions. That made them very attractive, particularly for tenant purchasers. I imagine they have a substantive base of the Irish housing market in terms of tenant purchasers. There is no question about that. Does the federation have figures in that regard? If not, we can research it elsewhere.

Mr. Farrell

If we can find information on that back at base, we shall be happy to drop a note to the Deputy.

On Part V etc., one is talking about tenant purchase, the affordable housing scheme and then there is the shared ownership scheme. If the federation does not have the data we can take up the matter with the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. In my local authority area people were locked into a variable rate the date they signed and they were not allowed to convert to a fixed rate. Local authorities have much less flexibility as regards the fixing of rates. If one is dealing with a company in the private sector, one has the facility on occasion to have the rate fixed, if necessary, for a couple of years. However, one does not get that degree of flexibility in some local authorities.

Mr. Farrell

There is a financial services action plan which is in vogue with the Commission. It has largely delivered many of the benefits on the wholesale side and that is what has made Ireland attractive as a centre for international banking to sell into the European market. The financial services retail side is still more fragmented because one is dealing with the different types of legal frameworks in various countries, the propensity of people to stay within their home markets, culture, language and so on. Nevertheless, a number of initiatives have been put in place. There is now much greater convergence of supervisory activity across the markets.

Mortgage market integration is one of two areas looked at by the Commission. It has not, however, indicated what the solution should be in this regard. This is a complex area as legal and registration of title procedures differ in countries, magnifying the issues across Europe. It would be difficult to try to create an integrated European mortgage market, but the Commissioner is looking at measures to create a pan-European mortgage market. There are so many issues involved, I cannot say what the market would look like, even in the medium term.

On the question of a single European payments area, the banks are committed in the period 2008 to 2010 to develop a common standard for payments across Europe. At present business can use the International Bank Account Number, IBAN, to transfer money throughout Europe at the same rate as the local charge, however it will probably take until 2010 and beyond for the momentum to ratchet up to mass market availability. What will probably happen is that a number of pan-European clearing hubs will develop and the commoditised clearing service they provide will be marketed to banks across Europe. It will be technically possible at that stage to send a direct debit from Bohola to Barcelona because it will be on a common platform and a common standard. That standardised system theoretically provides the opportunity for providers in the payment services to come in and out of different markets.

The rapidity of this development depends on the market and the players who take advantage of the opportunity. This system has been set on tracks but it will cost billions to provide the infrastructure as it involves a significant rewrite of the systems and processes. At present it is not clear if banks will get a return from this considerable investment. In fact there is no business case from a banking perspective for it, but the Commission is intent that this will happen and the banking system is developing it.

Lenders in the mortgage market are in a very difficult situation because if they were to do what the political system, economists and commentators set them in terms of reducing LTV to 60% and not lending people money, we would have social and political anarchy. There is a major demand for housing and lenders are trying to develop products with prudential safeguards and provide them in a sensible way so that people can aspire to own a home. There has been major innovation in this very competitive market. The industry deserves credit — no pun intended — for responding to a significantly changed marketplace, driven by the major demand for housing.

Mr. Farrell did not address the question of broadening people's knowledge of the banking system. Politicians, are a significant group in knocking the banking sector's profitability. They fail to take account of the numbers employed in the sector, that pension funds hold considerable quoted stocks and the high number of shareholders and the tight margins under which banks operate. Many of the benefits provided by the banking sector are not accounted for as well as the good it does in society. I have no vested interest in the banking sector — although I have a few pounds invested here and there — but the banks get unfair press coverage. As the chief executive of the Irish Bankers Federation, Mr. Farrell has a role to play in educating society on its approach to the banking sector.

Mr. Farrell

Thank you.

I thank Mr. Farrell and his staff for appearing before the joint committee. There is no other business.

The joint committee adjourned at 5.45 p.m. sine die.
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